Opel/Vauxhall: will they ever be cool?

[berty1979]

Vauxhalls have had some seriously cool models. I cant believe this thread! Mantas, VX220T/NA, Lotus Carlton, Monaro, Calibra Turbo, Calibra Red Top, all the VXR's, GTE's, GSI's. All awesome cars.
The cars mentioned are properly fast and some of them were supercar killers in terms of performance, this thread shows a lack of car education 👎

 

[Scaff]

Vauxhalls have had some seriously cool models. I cant believe this thread! Mantas, VX220T/NA, Lotus Carlton, Monaro, Calibra Turbo, Calibra Red Top, all the VXR's, GTE's, GSI's. All awesome cars.
The cars mentioned are properly fast and some of them were supercar killers in terms of performance, this thread shows a lack of car education 👎

Let's see:
Mantas - That one you get - but its been a while.
VX220T/NA - Thanks to Lotus rather than Vauxhall
Lotus Carlton - Thanks to Lotus rather than Vauxhall
Monaro - Thanks to Holden rather than Vauxhall
Calibra Turbo - Poorer that its key rivals in pretty much every way
Calibra Red Top - Poorer that its key rivals in pretty much every way
all the VXR's, GTE's, GSI's. - Poorer that its key rivals in pretty much every way


The problem with modern Vauxhall's has been pretty well documented in this thread over and over again, its got nothing to do with a lack of car education (I've worked in the industry most of my adult life). The issue is that even when Vauxhall are at their best it's either someone else's work or the competition is just better.

Take just about any of the current VXR range, in isolation they may look good, but up against the key rivals from Ford and Renault they fall down massively.

Oh and the Insignia is a nasty, nasty, nasty stupid car (which I have a self confessed bias against - does it show).


Scaff

 

[Danny]

I don't know.

While a lot of their models are competent, they lack flair and excitement. They're too predictable. I have lusted after a Renaultsport Clio for a long, long time. Never much cared for the hot Corsas/Astras though. I don't think you can answer a question like that really, because what is 'cool' differs depending on who you're asking.

Having said that, bring back the Droopsnoot Firenza, exactly how it looked in 1973, but with modern running-gear and drivetrain. Then we'll talk.

 

[Famine]

Curiously appropriate time to resurrect this thread.

 

[Jondot]

So as I understand it, the factories are running under capacity and Opel assumed that each replacement model would bump up the production levels simply for existing. That right?

Well that was a bit silly wasn't it. Hertz can only buy so many cars per year, y'know.

Actually that's a bit unfair. Hertz and West Yorkshire Police can only buy so many cars per year.

 

[axletramp]

I think Chris and Wez got one each as well. See, not cool.

 

[berty1979]

Scaff
Mantas - That one you get - but its been a while.
VX220T/NA - Thanks to Lotus rather than Vauxhall
Lotus Carlton - Thanks to Lotus rather than Vauxhall
Monaro - Thanks to Holden rather than Vauxhall
Calibra Turbo - Poorer that its key rivals in pretty much every way
Calibra Red Top - Poorer that its key rivals in pretty much every way
all the VXR's, GTE's, GSI's. - Poorer that its key rivals in pretty much every way

Vauxhall technically doesnt exist if thats your point, I guess they are all Opel/Lotus/Holdens then.
I am interested in what you say the key rivals are for the Calibra Turbo, Red Top and Astra GSI ?

PS. I hate modern vauxhalls too but then again I dont like many 'normal road cars' introduced in the last few years.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Vauxhalls may not be cool, I say may not... but that doesn't matter too much, they don't really have to be do they? Some people just want a car that goes about it's business in a non-offensive bland kind of way, my dad for instance, he's 63 and when his 156 has it's next (inevitable) repair bill of any size, he's probably going to go for an Astra, and it will be cheaper to own, more reliable, and more practical than the 156... difficult to argue against that, even if there are other alternatives that might be better.

Personally, other then chav'd up Corsas - well Corsas in general actually, I don't have much against Vauxhall. I rented an Astra 1.7TD Club for two weeks, it only had lead-mileage on it, and I drove it 4500 miles around the edge of the Great British mainland, it hard harsh seats and annoying indicators, but it did the job, and I came to respect it, if not like it, for how it dealt with all the pain we gave it.. I'd even go so far as to say I've got a soft spot for that car now, I even have a 1:43 scale model!


Aaah, fond memories...

 

[JBanton]

Vauxhalls will never be cool, end of.

 

[Famine]

Lindisfarne Hopefully that was receding

Vauxhalls may not be cool, I say may not... but that doesn't matter too much, they don't really have to be do they? Some people just want a car that goes about it's business in a non-offensive bland kind of way, my dad for instance, he's 63 and when his 156 has it's next (inevitable) repair bill of any size, he's probably going to go for an Astra, and it will be cheaper to own, more reliable, and more practical than the 156... difficult to argue against that, even if there are other alternatives that might be better.

All that (mainstream) Vauxhall ever had was "cheap" - they were no fun to drive and unreliable. First the French undercut them - and they had driving dynamics, but not reliability. Now the Koreans have undercut both - and they're better to drive than Vauxhalls and more reliable than either.

A Hyundai or a Kia will do everything a Vauxhall will do, but better, more often and for less money. A fully loaded, top of the range Kia Pro'Ceed 4 1.6 CDTi with the top spec 130PS engine comes in at £15.5k - an equivalent-engined base Vauxhall Astra ES 1.7 CDTi (125PS) is £20k with no optional extras ticked...

 

[Clark]

Pentti disagrees.

 

[Famine]

1977 called - it'd like its opinion back.

Incidentally, Pentti's first WRC win? 12 years later in the Lombard RAC with Mitsubishi. And his highest ever WRC championship finish? That'd be the year after he ditched Vauxhall and took up a drive with... Ford!

 

[Clark]

I mainly did it to because of my love for the Chevette, my suggestion using that vid was a bit tongue-in-cheek just because I found the music hilariously dated.

 

[Scaff]

Vauxhall technically doesnt exist if thats your point, I guess they are all Opel/Lotus/Holdens then.
I am interested in what you say the key rivals are for the Calibra Turbo, Red Top and Astra GSI ?

PS. I hate modern vauxhalls too but then again I dont like many 'normal road cars' introduced in the last few years.

Vauxhall exist, but all the decent product to carry the badge has pretty much been worked on by someone else.

In regard to the Calibra the Pug 406 Coupe and Honda Prelude were both far better drivers cars, hell I would even rate the Cougar as better (and I hate that thing). The GSI was easily topped by the Pug 306 variants, hotter Citroens of the day and the R19 16V all were better drivers car. The GSI sold well mainly because Ford were not offering anything remotely decent at that time, the French however pretty much had it beat all-round, oh as did the Civic.


That is unless you are talking about the later Astra GSI, in which case I will just quote Evo (and they hated the gearbox as well - worst bit about modern Vauxhall's apart from trying to look out the back of an Insignia):

The GSi is a more appealing car than the SRi - better looking, better to be in, a bit more powerful and better value, too. However, ranged against ever-stronger opposition it feels like a blunt instrument; undeniably rapid but lacking involvement and that fine tactility that makes a good hatch great.

Source - http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/33933/vauxhall_astra.html

Scaff

 

[berty1979]

Scaff- The prelude was better but only just. To suggest the other two is absolutley ridiculous, the cougar was nowhere near and a complete failure and the 406 was nearly as bad (not even classed as fast coupe's and almost as bad as the Ford Probe . You must not have driven the calibra at any length to make these wild claims.
I shant go and get reviews that favour the Calibra as arguing on the internet is pointless of course but as someone who used to own a calibra (and drive it to its limit) I find some of your comments to be a bit daft (with the greatest respect).

 

[Jondot]

Vauxhall technically doesnt exist if thats your point, I guess they are all Opel/Lotus/Holdens then.

Yep, pretty much.

And Suzukis.

And Fiats.

And Chevrolets.

And Isuzus.

















And Renaults.

Vauxhalls may not be cool, I say may not... but that doesn't matter too much, they don't really have to be do they? Some people just want a car that goes about it's business in a non-offensive bland kind of way, my dad for instance, he's 63 and when his 156 has it's next (inevitable) repair bill of any size, he's probably going to go for an Astra, and it will be cheaper to own, more reliable, and more practical than the 156... difficult to argue against that, even if there are other alternatives that might be better.

True enough, bypassing the whole price debacle. I know someone who bought an Astra for very similar reasons, actually. Well sort of. He'd had an Insignia as a company car and was used to the way that Vauxhall position the cruise control switches. That was (as I understand it) the reasoning behind his choice.

No in all seriousness, that was explained to me as one of the leading factors. The other being that it had five seats and air conditioning.

Shockingly enough its first owner was some sort of fleet operation too. I'm as surprised as the rest of you.

 

[Scaff]

Scaff- The prelude was better but only just. To suggest the other two is absolutley ridiculous, the cougar was nowhere near and a complete failure and the 406 was nearly as bad (not even classed as fast coupe's and almost as bad as the Ford Probe . You must not have driven the calibra at any length to make these wild claims.
I shant go and get reviews that favour the Calibra as arguing on the internet is pointless of course but as someone who used to own a calibra (and drive it to its limit) I find some of your comments to be a bit daft (with the greatest respect).

I've driven all of them, and at length (I've worked in the industry for quite a while) and to be blunt the Prelude and the 406 were both significantly better packaged cars than the Calibra, and the Prelude walked all over it as a drivers car. The Probe was a failure as far as sales go, however sales have never been an indicator of the package (the Mk V Escort is proof enough of that), but as far as a package goes was certainly no worse than the Calibra was.


I did however manage to find a wonderful old Top Gear (ex-Clarkson) review.



Scaff

 

[Dennisch]

Calibra. Don't see to many of those anymore. Rustbuckets.

 

[berty1979]

Like I said, its pointless to argue although before I go I do want to point out that even though I dont drive vauxhalls any more I dont agree with you and nor shall I. I speak from personal experience and found the Redtop and Turbo Cally's were amazing drivers cars even if the low cost options were absolutley awful (8 valve and ecotech engines).
You have your agenda in this thread and that is up to you but the Cougar?.......Epic fail.

 

[Famine]

To suggest the other two is absolutley ridiculous, the cougar was nowhere near and a complete failure and the 406 was nearly as bad (not even classed as fast coupe's and almost as bad as the Ford Probe

The Probe is the car that least belongs on that list. It was a coupe (Mazda MX-6) dressed up to be... a coupe.

The Calibra, 406 and Cougar were all ordinary saloon cars (Cavalier/Vectra, 406, Mondeo) dressed up to be coupes and all suffered because of it. The 2.0 options of the Calibra and Cougar were terrible cars, but the V6s were better. The 406 Coupe worked for the same reasons the Probe worked - they abandoned all pretence of sportiness and made it a cruiser.

Of course Vauxhall being Vauxhall addressed the shortcomings of the platform and driving experience by... shoving more power through it!


At the time, competing "grown up" coupes were the aforementioned Mazda MX-6, the Nissan 200SX (S14), the Alfa Romeo GTV, the Honda Prelude, the Mitsubishi FTO just about squeezed into the list, the FIAT Coupe and, probably the biggest hitter on the list, the Volkswagen Corrado.

Each had something it brought to the market - the MX-6 had that sweet-as-a-nut V6 (also available in nutter), the 200SX had turbo RWD goodness, the GTV brought great handling and Italian looks, the Prelude brought VTEC and nifty rear-wheel steering, the FTO had that bonkers 2.0 V6, the FIAT Coupe brought a V5 and brute force and the Corrado had pretty much everything. The Probe got pop up lights (I know, right? Wow!) but was at least the MX-6 underneath, the Cougar got a great front end and the dependable Mk2 Mondeo platform underneath it and the Calibra got... err... the lowest drag coefficient of any production car! And then more power to highlight the Cavalier chassis flaws and a rear diff to go wrong. A lot.

 

[Dennisch]

I speak from personal experience

I've been a car mechanic for the greatest part of my working life now, I worked at an Opel garage for 3 years, and the Calibra is and was never a reliable car, they started to rust within 2-3 years on the road, even faster when there was a colder winter. Like every other Opel of that era. And then the electric bits....

 

[berty1979]

@ Dennisch
Terrible reliability 👍
I didnt think we were talking about that though, my Fords were pretty rubbish at that too and dont even start with rust, missing wheel arches anyone?

Famine
The Probe is the car that least belongs on that list. It was a coupe (Mazda MX-6) dressed up to be... a coupe.

The Calibra, 406 and Cougar were all ordinary saloon cars (Cavalier, 406, Mondeo) dressed up to be coupes and all suffered because of it. The 2.0 options of the Calibra and Cougar were terrible cars, but the V6s were better. The 406 Coupe worked for the same reasons the Probe worked - they abandoned all pretence of sportiness and made it a cruiser.

Of course Vauxhall being Vauxhall addressed the shortcomings of the platform and driving experience by... shoving more power through it!

The voice of reason! Everything you say is true, I have owned the 406 SRI (turbo) and you are exactly right that it wasnt sporty at all really, comfortable yes but thats about it.
When you talk about the 2.0 litre Calibras there was a marked difference between the redtop and all other variants, the power was a little higher but it seemed a more eager engine and made a big difference in performance when compared to its 8 valve and ecotech brothers.
I never owned the V6 but a lot of people loved it and the turbo was a quick car too, fantastic in the rain and on my local roads

Oh and the less said about the probe the better IMO

 

[ExigeEvan]

Having a badgeless grille is nothing new for many manufacturers sporting divisions plus it does actually improve cooling to the engine even if they end up looking like cocaine addicts. Irmscher does also them with a tasteful silver strip on the top which looks great.

Which would be great, except the majority of road cars are more than adequately cooled in 99% of circumstances. With the exception being a 35C day, sat in traffic after a hard motorway run.

You can block the upper grill on most cars and actually improve performance, and in many cases block the majority of the lower grill in winter with no ill-effect.

 

[Scaff]

Like I said, its pointless to argue although before I go I do want to point out that even though I dont drive vauxhalls any more I dont agree with you and nor shall I. I speak from personal experience and found the Redtop and Turbo Cally's were amazing drivers cars even if the low cost options were absolutley awful (8 valve and ecotech engines).
You have your agenda in this thread and that is up to you but the Cougar?.......Epic fail.

Agenda? No, my opinion isn't actually biased by the the rose tint of owning any of these at all, I've driven them all over the course of my working life (on road and track).

As Famine has already pointed out, the underpinnings of the Calibra were shocking and Vauxhall standard solution of shoving more power into it only highlighted those flaws more. The Cougar had the a much better basic chassis basis in the Mondeo, and as a result was a much better drive for the class it was in (which was the exact same one as the Calibra).

Personally for a car of that era I owned, and rate much more highly than either the Calibra or Cougar....

...the Primera 2.0 eGT. May look like a minicab, but it had a better engine and chassis that either of them (a point Evo recognised recently when they rated it as one of the top twenty Q cars made).


Scaff

 

[berty1979]

No no no I dont mind the primera but the Mondeo! You are jesting with me now!
You have named the following.
Probe
Cougar
406
Mondeo
Primera

The only one I have never driven/owned is the Primera so I cant/wont comment on its driving performance but the rest of the list (in the Calibra years) must be just a joke.

 

[Famine]

We got through a V6 Probe and a Primera SRi

The Probe was crap value for a new car but as a used one, quite surprising. They could have done more with the V6 - the Japanese ran a version of the engine pushing about 195hp compared to the usual 167hp - but it was a comfortable cruiser and largely well-equipped for the era.

Of course being an MX-6 it also had that Twin Trapezoidal Link under the back end, so while it wasn't an out-and-out sports car it could certainly hustle nicely across Woodhead Pass - you know, as a random example.


That said, the Probe had a bloody stupid name and pop-up headlights. It looked like Americans had drawn a Toyota MR2 from memory, forgetting what "MR" meant - or a BMW 8 series that shrank in the wash. Saying you own a "Ford Probe" is as cool as saying your name is "Syphilis McTinywang" - and "Ford Cougar" isn't that much better. Not a cool car, by a long shot. Just not as bad as it's credited with being - and not actually bad at all.

 

[berty1979]

Maybe the 'Syphilys McTinywang' sorry Ford Probe that I drove had broken suspension because as a drivers car it was awful. I remember it having lots of gadgets and plush leather interior so all I can say is that it was a nice place to sit.......still.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I seem to recall for a time this was the "Fastest" of that bunch

And one guilty admission I have, is that I've always liked, and would like to have owned, one of these in Tahiti Blue.

 

[berty1979]

I liked the look of these too but by the time I could afford one they looked dated and there were a lot of badly modded examples about.
Was it actually fast? Could it corner? I will probably never find out for myself.
Oh and if you are going down the Rover route we gotta mention the V8 Vitesse, fantastic when tuned
Sorry I stray from the point

 

[MatskiMonk]

I liked the look of these too but by the time I could afford one they looked dated and there were a lot of badly modded examples about.
Was it actually fast? Could it corner? I will probably never find out for myself.
Oh and if you are going down the Rover route we gotta mention the V8 Vitesse, fantastic when tuned

In a straight line I think it was faster than stuff like the 406 coupe and Alfa GTV.. but I suspect it never handled that well. To be fair, I grew up on Rovers, since my Dad worked for them for a time, and I always liked the feel of them to drive... on the plus side his first company car with them was an SD1 Vanden Plas (I think), and the last was an 827i Sport.. but my overwhelming memory was my second car, a Rover 216GSi that had " " twisted " " enough to crack the windscreen from corner to corner, and a Honda K series derived engine that did two head gaskets within a year (I was driving like I was caressing a rare and delicate butterfly - obviously...).. either way the 220 turbo coupe in Tahiti blue is on my all-time list of cars I'd like to own, a short way behind an Aston Martin Vantage (90's version), and a BMW 635CSi... ... 1 down, 2 to go.