Encouraging Illegal Immigration

milefile · May 29, 2003

1. There are those who refer to illegal immigration as if there is no such thing. It seems as if they believe that Mexico and the U.S.A. are one continuous nation where any border is merely an inconvenient formality.

2. There are water stations dotted throughout the desert in southern Arizona so illegal border crossers can have a drink on the way, and not die. This is either simple compassion or a blatant encouragement to "c'mon over... we'll make it nice and easy for you."

3. Ranchers in southern Arizona are protecting their land, which is used by illegal border crossers, with posses and guns.

Just three facts I hear about every day living in Phoenix. What do you think? Especially about #2, which really gets me because I don't understand the purpose in removing what is probably the greatest deterent to illegally entering this country, if not to simply conjoin Mexico and the U.S.A. in an obvious and deliberate way.

Duke · May 29, 2003

I've also heard this type of opinion expressed:

"Well, after these people have struggled so hard to make it here, the least we can do is let them in and welcome them."

Do it through channels, or don't do it at all. That can't be any harder than trying to cross the Rio Grande and intervening desert on foot. Yes, it may take weeks or months... but then you know you're officially part of the system you're trying so hard to join.

It does also seem to beg the question of why so many people want to live here, if we are the fascist bullyboys of the world.

Talentless · May 29, 2003

Months ago I actually heard McCauliffe say that illegal immigrants are not doing anything illegal, can't fully quote him (I believe it was on Hannity and Colmes, so an ordering of a transcript may help), but I guess the gist of his point is that they are not, criminals not included, "doing anything illegal" after the fact. Apparently the status of illegality for breaking into a country lasts for a day.

The families suing the US over the deaths a year or so ago had an interesting claim. Apparently, if you refuse entry to a country you are obligated to make illegal methods safe. This goes into the whole water station issue.

My guess is that logic is very poor in the families wanting to sue us, or that Mexican water is really bad.

1X83Z · May 29, 2003

Before you're so quick to judge illegal immigration, I can honestly say that it helps the economy. I've lived in three places very recently which had huge Hispanic populations, and I can say without a doubt that they're willing to work for low wages and long hours, because it's better than it was in Mexico (mainly).

What we really need in this country is

a) troops on the US/Mexico border, who actually inforce the rules.
b) a decent guest worker program, where we actually keep track of workers going across the border only to work
c) the ability to deport crime-committing illegals

milefile · May 29, 2003

Originally posted by Talentless
Apparently, if you refuse entry to a country you are obligated to make illegal methods safe.

This argument basically says there is no border, one continuous nation.

milefile · May 29, 2003

Originally posted by M5Power
Before you're so quick to judge illegal immigration, I can honestly say that it helps the economy. I've lived in three places very recently which had huge Hispanic populations, and I can say without a doubt that they're willing to work for low wages and long hours, because it's better than it was in Mexico (mainly).

What we really need in this country is

a) troops on the US/Mexico border, who actually inforce the rules.
b) a decent guest worker program, where we actually keep track of workers going across the border only to work
c) the ability to deport crime-committing illegals

"So quick" my ass. I live in phoenix and have for years. Illegal immigration does not help the economy.

Guest workers? Fine.
Militarized border? Hm.
Deport alien criminals? Good.

It is not the mere presence of "aliens" in this country that bothers me, and it wasnt the point of the thread. I guess the problem I have is with the contradictory nature of the laws and their enforcement: Tell them they can't come, then remove the biggest deterent. I think a smiley is in order: :banghead:

Talentless · May 29, 2003

Actually, I put ethics over simple financial benefit. I do not buy the argument that we would collapse, as some suggest, without the labor from Mexico, et al, to do the "dirty" jobs we refuse to. Of course, companies shoul be held to account. If the cost of a US worker is too much, either lower your expectations, work to make it easier for your business, or build more capital, or something. They should not be hiring illegals.

I think most people advocate a worker program.

Again, I see the economic justification as a weak argument. One would have to prove the dependency on this supposed benefit. And that alone still does not change the legality of the migrants' residence.

Talentless · May 29, 2003

Amendment: Ethics is too subjective. I put consistent application of law, save for some reconsideration under emergencies, usually of a high nature, above financial benefit.

skylineGTR_guy · May 29, 2003

I also live in AZ and I was wondering about those water stations too... I know those people work hard to try and get here, even risking death, but I don't think its fair that we put up water stations to help them on theyre way here if were just gonna send most of them back....If they want to come here I have no problem with that but do it Legally.....

1X83Z · May 29, 2003

Originally posted by milefile
"So quick" my ass. I live in phoenix and have for years. Illegal immigration does not help the economy.

Sure it does. Not only do the surplus of workers take care of low-end long-hour jobs that many Americans refuse to do, but they also purchase from local businesses and shops, and, if they buy a car or home, pay tax. I'm not granting that the US would collapse without illegals (it would certainly slow down the economy, if only because people think we need illegals) and I'm certainly not advocating blanket amnesty (i.e. 'we're too lazy to enforce, so let's let them enjoy the benefits because of our incompetence') but at least a guest worker program.

Talentless · May 29, 2003

Ok, but I still don't care about the economic benefit.

1X83Z · May 29, 2003

Economic benefit above all.

milefile · May 29, 2003

Originally posted by M5Power

Sure it does. Not only do the surplus of workers take care of low-end long-hour jobs that many Americans refuse to do, but they also purchase from local businesses and shops, and, if they buy a car or home, pay tax. [/B]

Maybe a $300.00 1981 Olsmobile with the mirrors taped on and no muffler. It'd be pretty hard to get a mortgage as an illegal.

And most of them hang out on street corners waiting to be picked up by landscapers as day laborers, who are paid cash, tax free.

milefile · May 29, 2003

Originally posted by M5Power

but at least a guest worker program. [/B]

Where they at least have some plan for what they intend to do when they get here as opposed to standing around waiting for work to fall in their lap.

Talentless · May 29, 2003

Uh no.

1X83Z · May 29, 2003

Originally posted by milefile
Maybe a $300.00 1981 Olsmobile with the mirrors taped on and no muffler.

Well, that's stereotypical... still taxed, though. And Phoenix, Tucson, California, and Denver all have a fairly strict emissions programs, so don't expect anything with no muffler to pass.

It'd be pretty hard to get a mortgage as an illegal.

Maybe they'll live in their '81 Eighty Eight.

Where they at least have some plan for what they intend to do when they get here as opposed to standing around waiting for work to fall in their lap.

No. I could care less what they do when in the US. But I want them to pass two basic goals before entering:

a) no criminal history in the US, no violent criminal history in Mexico. If they commit a crime, kick them out.
b) sign up on a list. With every address change or vehicle purchase, call the INS and report it. If they fail to do so within thirty days, kick them out.

While on the guest worker program, they can be applying for citizenship.

skylineGTR_guy · May 30, 2003

Originally posted by milefile
And most of them hang out on street corners waiting to be picked up by landscapers as day laborers, who are paid cash, tax free.

yep thats true I see em almost every day in front of the Circle K gas station waiting for someone to pick them up so they can work...at least 20 of em

HRT_Maloo · May 30, 2003

Originally posted by milefile

3. Ranchers in southern Arizona are protecting their land, which is used by illegal border crossers, with posses and guns.

Good on em

1X83Z · May 30, 2003

Originally posted by HRT_Maloo
Good on em

I agree. It's almost become 'don't ask, don't tell' down there, since many (most?) border/near border ranchers have resorted to manned towers or simply guards with large guns.

Danoff · Sep 17, 2003

And now we have driver's licenses for them in California.

Does nobody seem to see the prefix on the term. Illegal. That means, breaking the law. As in, if you have them you should deport them. We shouldn't be giving them driver's licenses, they should be leaving.

The thing about illegal immigrants is that they don't have to pay taxes... so they can work for cheap. What does that accomplish? It takes jobs away from hard working americans and it cheats the rest of the tax payers.

We don't owe them driver's licenses we owe them a trip back to mexico. OH YEA! and allowing them to get driver's licenses is not going to encourage them to become more law abiding. If they don't pass the tests or whatever they'll go back to breaking the law (by staying in the country).

GilesGuthrie · Sep 17, 2003

Originally posted by skylineGTR_guy
yep thats true I see em almost every day in front of the Circle K gas station waiting for someone to pick them up so they can work...at least 20 of em

And that makes them very different to the trailer park white trash living off the state.

We have the same issue with Asians in the UK. The simple fact of the matter is that these are decent hard-working citizens in the main, and the government should do more to integrate them into society. Perhaps by giving them three-year tax breaks that allow them to establsih themselves within the system rather than encouraging them to remain off the grid.

But there needs to be an acknowledgement that the immigrant is going to abide by the rules of the land in which they settle, on pain of immediate deportation.

Of course, Europe is blighted by refugees (the old-fashioned work for 'asylum seekers'), who are supposed to invoke a more compassionate approach. I can't help but think that a large number of them are liggers.

milefile · Sep 17, 2003

I wish the official line on the issue was straight-forward or at least honest. I'd imagine the most pointless job in America would be border patrol officer. When I drove to California we were stopped each direction and asked if we were US citizens. I guess if you're not they take you in... for a driver's licence and some food stamps.

Danoff · Sep 17, 2003

Why not give them a house and a car and some cash? After all, they're hard working individuals who we owe a debt of gratitude to. Let the tax payers foot the bill and the legal nationals of this country go without jobs.

milefile · Sep 17, 2003

Yeah! That's it. They don't have to pay taxes. Just take more from me and give it to them. Hooray!

skylineGTR_guy · Sep 17, 2003

Whats up with the license thing? Now they want to LET them legaly drive...so..who wants to take bets on how many of them can afford car insurance? Now lets see...tons of people driving around without insurance, tons of wrecks, they cant afford to pay and suing them would cost more than you would recive in return, and my ins payments go up...oh joy.

Solid Fro · Sep 17, 2003

Blame Davis, he wants to keep his job...

Talentless · Sep 17, 2003

Let's not spin this. Davis is pandering, but the fact is that without the belief that this action would garner him more of the Hispanic/Latino vote than he would get otherwise, he probably would not have done this.

Therefor, assuming he isn't delusional, the aforementioned groups, although they may have some validity in claiming, whatever amount does, that most of the illegals are decent people, and the legal process is hard, maybe even unfair, are being selfish if they support him on the basis of letting illegals stay.

One cannot violate one law and buy off a nation by pointing out how hard working he is.

Illegal immigration, whatever it's benefits, takes advantage of our good nature, which is exceptionally rude.

milefile · Sep 17, 2003

Originally posted by Talentless
Illegal immigration, whatever it's benefits, takes advantage of our good nature, which is exceptionally rude.

Excellent.

Talentless · Sep 17, 2003

Thank You.

milefile · Sep 17, 2003

I mean, excelente!

Encouraging Illegal Immigration

Keep 'em separated

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