Encouraging Illegal Immigration

[milefile]

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
with respect Milefile....i dont understand that statement...

You say you'd help people who need help. That's good. Nobody will argue with that. But you expand your morality to international affairs and economics. There is no logical justification for this.

If a hungry person knocked on your door you'd feed them. If five hungry people knocked on your door, would you feed them? What if twenty hungry people, ten political refugees and two terrorists knocked on your door? How would you help them all? How would youy know who is good and bad? What if every single day you were inundated with people who have little or nothing to contribute, and only ate all your food?

Your welcome mat and the border between Mexico and the US are two very different things.

 

[SS69]

immigration is good to a certain extent. i dont agree on illegal immigration. why should i pay taxes for all the illegals living here for free? they dont even have to learn our language. the citizenship test is givin in all kinds of languages. but whatever. not much i can do about it.

 

[TurboSmoke]

Originally posted by milefile
You say you'd help people who need help. That's good. Nobody will argue with that. But you expand your morality to international affairs and economics. There is no logical justification for this.

If a hungry person knocked on your door you'd feed them. If five hungry people knocked on your door, would you feed them? What if twenty hungry people, ten political refugees and two terrorists knocked on your door? How would you help them all? How would youy know who is good and bad? What if every single day you were inundated with people who have little or nothing to contribute, and only ate all your food?

Your welcome mat and the border between Mexico and the US are two very different things.

yep, i understand milefile and you have a good point....

if 10 people arrived at my door i would feel that they were taking advantage....i suppose that being in europe where we have a lot of countries all grouped togther is different from north america where all you have is the US and canada...

all i can argue is that the european constitution helps in spreading the load of asylum seekers around wealthy countries such as Germany, Belgium, France and the Netherlands etc...so when they turn up at my door, my 'neighbours' should help out if we have a common agreement...

as for knowing who is good or bad...well we simply dont...but arent we taught to believe that a man is innocent until proven guilty...perhaps a person who exhibits terrorist tendancies while in his home country may feel differently while in the Uk or US when they see that the 'decadent west' is mostly a creation of the media and far from reality, that we as a people are accepting and repect our muslim (for want of an example) brothers and are willing to learn from them and grow with them...

after all...we have plenty of white british home grown racists, bigots and terrorists already here...there is no way to stop a determined killer if he feels the need to kill...

its true that we do feel inundated with incomers as you suggested but the way to deal with that is not to lock them up in a prison and deport them....

when a refugee and his wife and two children arrive here illegally, they are put in a detention centre until thier claim can be reviewed. If failed, the childern and wife are deported back to thier country, where they will be punished for trying to leave in the first place and the father will be held and interrogated by the immigration officers to see if charges are to be brought, this takes months locked in a prison worring about his family and being deprived of his freedom....wehn he is told that he is also to be deported and sent back to certain torture and beating and not knowing where is wife and kids are and even if they are alive...he slams the desk and tells the official 'damn you, this system is unfair'....he's got a point...

i have friends from all over the Arabic world that i meet through my job, from Saudi to Qatar to Lybia and the image that is seen in the media is not of the reality of the intellegent, charming, warm and friendly muslim...far from it...we are too quick to judge from wat we see on the TV and read in the papers...

 

[TurboSmoke]

Originally posted by SS69
immigration is good to a certain extent. i dont agree on illegal immigration. why should i pay taxes for all the illegals living here for free? they dont even have to learn our language. the citizenship test is givin in all kinds of languages. but whatever. not much i can do about it.

yeah they're all living the high life, lying by the pool sipping cocktails....all on your hard earned taxes....

is that what you really believe?

 

[SS69]

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
yeah they're all living the high life, lying by the pool sipping cocktails....all on your hard earned taxes....

is that what you really believe?

pretty much. well not as exagerated as u said. but i pay to put thier kids through school. pay higher property taxes because they live 50 to a 3 bedroom house. and i cant even afford a new car when theyre driving around in 30-40k dollar cars. u try liven where i do where theres about 50k illegal immigrants in my city alone. no goddamn joke.

 

[SS69]

and heres to add to my point. im all for diversity. i mean id get pretty sick of seein all one color of skin. and it was fine about 5-10 years ago when they first started coming up here. but since then my town has just dwindled down to complete ****. and the reason prices are so high down here is cause they raise them. theyll over pay for anything because they group together. get about 20 people to a house that can bairly fit 4 people. and they devide the bills. so they can afford anyting. and most of them are illegal anyways so they dont have to pay taxes. they get one legal living with them to get by the government. the rest go scott free. i mean they just raised my house appraisel about 30k dollars. i couldnt sell it for what they say its worth/

 

[Talentless]

"So do illegals."

The issue remains the manner in which one comes here.


"Obviously, with the amount of American jobs already overseas. It's not a requirement, but spending American money in America, is a good thing."

It is, but it is not, as far as I know, a requirement of citizenship.


"Do you comprehend the amount of menial jobs out there that would need to be filled? Millions. If illegal immigrants were to stop coming to America, how would these menial jobs get filled, realisticly?"

Necessity.

It makes little sense to say that illegal immigrants don't provide a valuable asset to the US and it makes even less sense to think we could fill those jobs without them.

I do not believe I said there was no benefit. I have said that I am not a supporter of the economical arguments in support of loose or illegal immigration. I base that on personal philosophy and the belief that an inherent security risk exists with such a system in place.

Why would it make more sense for these jobs to go unfilled? Even if there are millions, could no legal immigrants do them, or naturally born citizens? The result of your logic, based on the types of jobs most often referred to as menial, is that we would have chaos. Even if there's a historical precedence for this belief, it's hard for me to accept that in this time we would allow ourselves to fall into serious disrepair. Breifly, maybe, but I believe we would recover, barring uncontrollable circumstances.

'Daddy, when I grow up, I wanna be a migrant farm worker.'

Every dream is special.

 

[Danoff]

Who ever says that they take jobs away from Americans is wrong. How many Americans want to wash dishes all day long? How many kids in America want to go clean toilets after school. You are so wrong if you think for one second that these illegal immigrants are taking away jobs from us. They are filling the jobs that NONE of us want.

Who are you to tell Americans that they should go hungry on the street because they are American citizens? Think about it. A minimum wage (because that’s the federal mandate) earning American citizen has to pay taxes and must be paid at a certain rate. If illegal immigrants (illegal for good reason) are allowed to come in and take jobs (yes take) American citizens get put out on the street because of their citizenship. Illegals cost less because there is no minimum wage for them and no social security tax (which your employer has to pay part of). I think it’s incredibly asinine of you to claim that just because you don’t want to clean toilets, you should endorse a policy that would prevent others from doing so. At this point in my life I would rather be unemployed than flip burgers. Am I going to tell you that I don’t think you want to either so we should allow illegal immigrants to come do the job cheaper than you possibly can (because they don’t have overhead you do).

If America is going to tax it’s citizens it has to have a strong illegal immigrant prevention policy. It is unconstitutional to encourage illegal immigration (which is what Gray Davis has done). It is unconstitutional for a reason.

[/quote]
How many here can honestly say that you have lost out on a job because it was being filled by an illegal immigrant? [/quote]

You wouldn’t know it because it’s not legal to hire them so your employer would be very secretive about it. If you did lose your job to an illegal immigrant and knew about it it would be your duty to report it to the police and then sue the crap out of your former employer. Because that kind of action is ILLEGAL!!!!

I will go out on a limb and say that not a single one of you would want to clean toilets day in and day out. Not one of you!

I’ve seen American citizens do it, so I know that some of them want to.

How many Americans are complaining right now that they can't find a job digging holes because all the illegals are filling those positions? None!

If they could say that, they would have a lawsuit they could bring against that company. And lots of Americans dig holes for a living - especially in the northern parts of the country where illegal immigrants are harder to find.

Maybe if there was a sudden influx of network engineers comming into America from Mexico illegaly, then you might have a valid issue with saying that they are taking jobs away from other Americans. But they aren't taking away jobs from us when none of us want those jobs that they are filling.

So it’s not a problem until it impacts middle class America? Wow… talk about neglect for the unskilled American worker.

And what about the ones that are here legally? Folks with work permits and green cards. None of them are citizens nor do many of them even want citizenship, but they have been here in America for years now and still can't speak the English language. Then they take the money that they make here and go back to Mexico and spend it there. What about them? How come you and other Americans are not crying about them?
These people are here legally but abuse the system, don't give a damn about America and then spend American dollars in their home countries? To me that is the greater wrong.
And if you don't see that as common place, think again, cus I see it everywhere where I live.

What about US citizens who take their money across the boarder and spend it. What about purchasing a foreign car? People are allowed to spend their money outside of the US borders. International commerce is big business and a good thing (in other words, not a problem)

Bring'em on and let'em drive to their dirty toilets.

… and let the American janitor starve on the street. He should have been born in Mexico.

 

[SS69]

trust me there are still plenty of americans who want to work for a living. just because u dont want to break a sweat to get by doesnt mean u speak for everyone. before immigrants u could get a decent paying job without a college education. now its required. there are still americans willing to work construction or whatever else it takes to get by.

 

[boombexus]

So who is going to fill the millions of menial jobs, if by some odd cosmic mishap, all illegal immigration ceases to exist?

No BS answers like "necessity" please. Try to hypothyse a viable way. What are your solutions to filling all those necessary jobs?

I'm not trying to say illegal immigration is right or wrong, that's not my point. My opinion is that America needs these immigrants whether legal or illegal to do these jobs that the vast, and overwhelming majority of Americans will not do.

 

[Talentless]

Boom, part of the problem is that I do not believe this would be a long term problem. It's also the case that I do not think the negative consequences of not having these jobs filled will be allowed for long either.

Now, supposing that it is hard to get those jobs filled, those businesses in need of services could have to remove the parts of them that need the services or shut down. The businesses that can afford it, will raise the pay for the services. The jobs should reduce over time. And some can work extra.

Most won't do them because they have a choice. A choice that is unlikely in this world to ever go away. But you are looking at this cynically, as if the country cared more about its pride than its environment. True, there will be neglected areas, but any group could have those.

Necessity is not a bs answer. What I mean by it is what I meant by being over run with filth. If the jobs are not filled, it effects many. Why would an entrepenuer, starting a line of coffee shops, allow his business to fold when, presuming he has good capital, he can either pay current workers more to expand their tasks or increase the salary for menial jobs in his shops? Will they all refuse the pay because the work is "undifnified?"

My contention is that the issue would naturally resolve itself over time. Perhaps to an inferior economic level, but I doubt to a depression or recession.

I guess you could say that I am too naive and overly faithful in the human preference to not live in squalor.

 

[TurboSmoke]

Originally posted by SS69
trust me there are still plenty of americans who want to work for a living. just because u dont want to break a sweat to get by doesnt mean u speak for everyone. before immigrants u could get a decent paying job without a college education. now its required. there are still americans willing to work construction or whatever else it takes to get by.

yeah nice one SS69

i agree....why cant the menial jobs be filled by Americans already living there...why 'encourage' the trade in illegal immigration by believeing that a certain job is beneath you....america has an unemployment problem the same as most countries...

introduce a national munimum wage for domestics and labourers etc...

self respect can only be achieved if you are respected by others atleast to some small degree....and i am sorry but in america a majority or respect is earned by those who have money...

take away thier money and people lose respect....its not about the job....people will take a menial job if it is well paid....

there should be no such thing as 'illegal immigration' in a fair an ideal world and i will be the first to say that is merely a dream but govts can take this as a model to work on for a better future....

try and devise a system that lets people enter the country legally in order to suit an emplyers needs...(this actually exists but doesnt work) and bring the minumum wage up to a respectable level so that americans who would normally not afford to take such a job, suddenly find that they have respect in a decent job...

is there a National Minimum Wage in America? (sorry, i dont know)...we have it in the UK...

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by boombexus
So who is going to fill the millions of menial jobs, if by some odd cosmic mishap, all illegal immigration ceases to exist?

No BS answers like "necessity" please. Try to hypothyse a viable way. What are your solutions to filling all those necessary jobs?

I'm not trying to say illegal immigration is right or wrong, that's not my point. My opinion is that America needs these immigrants whether legal or illegal to do these jobs that the vast, and overwhelming majority of Americans will not do.

When I first arrived in Phoenix I had to find a job, and fast. I looked through the papers and pretty much was willing to do anything that paid "enough". I quickly found out that certain jobs are reserved for illegals, namely, landscaping. Yeah. I was willing to mow lawns for 10.00 an hour. Nobody would even talk to me. Why would they want to hire a white American and pay taxes when they can hire an illegal immigrant who can't even speak English and can't ask for anything?

Plenty of people are willing to do menial jobs, especially young people who just need money. There was a time when high-school kids got jobs (I've worked continuously since I was 14). But it's almost impossible now because all those jobs are taken by illegals. You used to be able to go into the local McDonalds and see local kids flipping the burgers. Now you see 40 year old Mexicans who can't speak English.

 

[Danoff]

there should be no such thing as 'illegal immigration' in a fair an ideal world and i will be the first to say that is merely a dream but govts can take this as a model to work on for a better future....

try and devise a system that lets people enter the country legally in order to suit an emplyers needs...(this actually exists but doesnt work) and bring the minumum wage up to a respectable level so that americans who would normally not afford to take such a job, suddenly find that they have respect in a decent job...

You cannot have a system where illegal immigration does not exist when you have a country that attempts to do as much for socially, and take as much from it's people as America.

The following items are examples of why it is important that Americans take care of their borders and not let illegals come in.

Taxes
-illegals who don't pay taxes work for cheaper than Americans legally can... unfair

Minimum Wage
- yup, we have a minimum wage. Illegals can work for cheaper. Our government says that if you are a citizen you are not legally allowed to work for less. So employers will hire illegals - also unfair

The Draft
-our country still reserves the right to draft its citizens into the armed forces. It wouldn't be fair for others living here illegally to take advantage of American services while not having to serve the country in time of draft.

Social Security taxes
-see minimum wage and taxes


These are a few examples. When a government tries to get as invovled as our government has (which I think is a bad thing) it prevents fair competition between legal citizens and illegal immigrants. It is totally unfair to say that because you are a united states citizen you can't have this job.


Also,


I'll tell you where the people to fill those illegal immigrant jobs come from... our unemployed population. And of course as Milefile said already... high school students. Also possibly some college students who need to make a buck. Whoever wants to do it. Trust me it would get filled or some of the companys would go out of buisness - which is not going to happen over janitorial services, but if it did... there would be more people to fill those jobs.

We don't need illegal's to work here. We have plenty of people who would be willing to work those jobs if they paid what the legal market demanded.

 

[SS69]

i cant even find a goddamn part time job here because all the hispanics have them taken up. theyre even taking kids jobs. america has the worst unemployment rate and ill bet a lot of it has to do with immigration. im not saying its a bad thing. but the immigrants we get today hardly help america. its not like the ones that built america.

 

[Talentless]

I don't think America actually has the worst unemployment rate.

 

[Danoff]

im not saying its a bad thing

I think it's a terrible thing. For exactly the reasons you specified.

 

[SS69]

Originally posted by danoff
I think it's a terrible thing. For exactly the reasons you specified.

well i was saying that immigration wasnt bad to a certain extent. but "illegal" immigration is bad.

 

[Danoff]

... right. That's what I meant - illegal immigration. I have no problem with the legal version.

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by Talentless
I don't think America actually has the worst unemployment rate.

One of the very best, in fact.

 

[Mopar Muscle]

Originally posted by SS69
i cant even find a goddamn part time job here because all the hispanics have them taken up. theyre even taking kids jobs. america has the worst unemployment rate and ill bet a lot of it has to do with immigration. im not saying its a bad thing. but the immigrants we get today hardly help america. its not like the ones that built america.

I work at a themepark (Knott's Berry Farm) most of the jobs are usually taken by people ages 16 - 25 there are people there that are most likely illegals, and their about 30 - 45 years old. i understand what you are saying, anyone who doesn't needs to go to Mc Donalds and take a look at the people working, they are not just teenagers anymore, they are immigrants.

 

[boombexus]

But I would definately think that for a company the size of McDonalds, and even Knots Berry Farm for that matter, an American would be losing there job to a legal immigrant. As the size of these companies are large enough that they are closely watched by the INS or whatever other governing body is at work if not only there own internal policies. Thoughts?

I work for the Marriott corporation and their policy is not to hire anyone that can not provide legal documentation. But someone who is not a citizen but has a work permit, green card or J1 visa are elligible to be hired. I actually have 5 Argentinians on my staff that are here on a work program and are here in this country legally. Would you consider them or this policy to be a greater harm to Americans because they occupy a more desireable job?

Would anyone be willing to say that more Americans are losing out on jobs by legal immigrants or legal foreign workers more than illegal workers?
(I'm not trying to rationalize either one.) But it's still my opinion that the illegals occupy the most undesireable jobs that Americans don't want but need, where the legals are getting more mainstream jobs that Americans are used to getting and still desire. Especially the younger job seekers.

Did anyone happen to catch Lou Dobb's "Money Line" on CNN the other night? It was a discussion about legal foreign workers that are occupying jobs that are highly competitive and sought after here in the American job market.

Let me see if I can find the transcript.

 

[TurboSmoke]

Originally posted by boombexus


I work for the Marriott corporation and their policy is not to hire anyone that can not provide legal documentation.

Hi Boom...

isnt that supposed to be the policy of every legitimate business in the US...

i know here if McDonald hire illegal immigrants and were found out there would be heavy penalties to pay....or any other business for that matter...

this exteneds to ANY and EVERY business...i know because i am a founding partner in a business...

 

[SS69]

well theres a lot of legals that are just as bad as illegals. and america is about to give millions more amnesty(sp?). without even trying to kick them out.

 

[TurboSmoke]

Originally posted by SS69
and america is about to give millions more amnesty(sp?). without even trying to kick them out.

well i never thought i would say this....but in this respect i applaud america..

 

[Danoff]

well i never thought i would say this....but in this respect i applaud america..

Why? For helping destroy our economic base? For hindering our terrorism security attempts? For hurting our own citizens to help those people who won't even take the time to go through our approved process of immigration?

Or is it something more broad like promoting racism at our schools through affirmative action? Or our unjustified (economy destroying) redistribution of wealth?

You applaud america for destorying itself? If America left, who would protect Europe from military dictators?
(ehem Hiler Stalin Saddam)

 

[Talentless]

I'm not sure I feel exactly as Danoff does, but it seems to me that certain idealogies have affected you, Turbo. It's commendable that you would want such generosity, but a price must be paid. By us.

 

[TurboSmoke]

Originally posted by danoff
who would protect Europe from military dictators?
(ehem Hiler Stalin Saddam)

sorry danoff...

but what i was thinking about was more like 'giving the poor a second chance' thats why i applaud the statement....

the above quote by you doesnt offend me as it is intended...

if the death of millions of europeans by a regime that would have crushed america too at its height was your idea of protection....your obviously blind..

 

[TurboSmoke]

Originally posted by Talentless
I'm not sure I feel exactly as Danoff does, but it seems to me that certain idealogies have affected you, Turbo. It's commendable that you would want such generosity, but a price must be paid. By us.

Talentless...there is always a price to be paid....nothing is free...everything takes effort and sacrifice....in a situation where people less fortunate seek help...your help requires your generosity....

the price is paid by us indeed....gladly...but us?..who are we in this respect?...

 

[Talentless]

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
Talentless...there is always a price to be paid....nothing is free...everything takes effort and sacrifice....in a situation where people less fortunate seek help...your help requires your generosity....

the price is paid by us indeed....gladly...but us?..who are we in this respect?...

Us would be Americans. Remember that it is not our responsibility if there are problems incurred by amnesty in the UK, but it is if there are problems here with amnesty. I may have touched on this a while back, but I will touch on it once more, at least. It's not the humanist, or socialist, or progressive policy itself that bothers me so much as the advocates of policies associated with the aforementioned groups and others. And it bothers me not because I think there is cruel intent. What bothers me is that, though not all America's successes may be "evil," we are placed on a stage to have ourselves pelted with the rotten fruits of condescension to vitriol; told in response that we should expect it; that we are simultaneously expected to adhere to international accords concerning foreign policy while also being critiqued for our domestic policies; that I highly doubt the demand to accept new methods that may cost us a lot economically will be met with a reduction in the call for more aid; that we may be the only viable military force in the face of any dictator that defeats containment; that moral high grounds will be taken on the previous issue despite it being a good example of grey. I'm forgetting my other grievances.

When people cry foul of supposed imperialism by a country and then demand from that country agreement to their policies and more money, there is something wrong with the ethics of those people, and perhaps the world.

This rant was brought to you by the letter K.