Encouraging Illegal Immigration

[milefile]

Lame-o-land? Where is that?

 

[Nightmage82]

Originally posted by milefile
Lame-o-land? Where is that?

a place where everyone lives in sandpits. bwahahahahahahaah

 

[Danoff]

I thought this article was a good reason to dust off an old thread.

http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry200604040747.asp

 

[Swift]

If we really need more poorly educated workers here, we can always rely, unfortunately, on the public schools to produce them indigenously.

That's about it right there.

This is some annoying stuff. I can't believe Bush said that illegal immagrants do the jobs that American won't do. Of course, because the employers can pay the illegals less then minimum wage and get away with it. Obviously American citizens feel they shouldn't have to work for less then that.

 

[boombexus]

I thought this article was a good reason to dust off an old thread.

http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry200604040747.asp

Mr. Lowrys' closing statement of, "Immigration from Latin America, in short, does not chiefly benefit our economy, government or society..." does ring some truth.

I believe that legals/illegals help maintain the status quoue, as far as the economy is concerned, and not necessarly contribute a "boon". I think the legals/illegals keep some essential services, in certain areas of the US, moving at the pace we have come to expect them to move.

While my original opinion in this thread still stands, some aspects of it have changed over the few years that have passed since I first posted.
The first aspect of my initial opinion that has changed are the illegal aliens, and the change is due in light of the proposed guest worker program.

While I don't see the guest worker program as a solid end all fix to illegal immigration, I do see it as a viable plan of action that could actually help instead of hinder.

If it's easier to come over to the US and work legally then this could very well reduce the amount of illegals that will be here putting a strain on the US governmental systems such as, for example, health care.

If the guest worker program is initiated, then there might very well be a boost to the economy, or maybe not a boost, but at least, less of a strain.
If the workers are now taxed more easily, and are now able to be placed with more reputable employers that have available health care systems, I can see this helping out the current situation rather than hindering it.

 

[Danoff]

If it's easier to come over to the US and work legally then this could very well reduce the amount of illegals that will be here putting a strain on the US governmental systems such as, for example, health care.

According to Camarota, if illegal immigrants were legalized, their net annual cost to the federal government would only increase, tripling to $30 billion a year.

...

 

[Keef]

Boombexus isn't talking about giving current illegals citizen--that's just retarted. They don't deserve free citizenship. He is speaking of making the legalization process more simple and streamlined, so as not to scare away people that want to be citizens but don't feel like going through a bunch of crap to get there. I'm sure most illegals are just "walk-ons", but I'm also sure that some people read the requirements for citizenship and go "Heh, scareeeew that." Then they become a walk-on.
I don't know much about the new immigration debate, but what the heck happened to deportation? The 'Crats didn't get to that one yet, did they? Damn 'Crats.

 

[Danoff]

Boombexus isn't talking about giving current illegals citizen--that's just retarted. They don't deserve free citizenship. He is speaking of making the legalization process more simple and streamlined, so as not to scare away people that want to be citizens but don't feel like going through a bunch of crap to get there. I'm sure most illegals are just "walk-ons", but I'm also sure that some people read the requirements for citizenship and go "Heh, scareeeew that." Then they become a walk-on.
I don't know much about the new immigration debate, but what the heck happened to deportation? The 'Crats didn't get to that one yet, did they? Damn 'Crats.

My point is that the easier you make it to become an immigrant (which I'm all in favor of) the more poor people our welfare state has to support.

 

[Keef]

Very true. Maby we should only let the affluent immigrants in. But that violates the main principles of America. Oh well, I guess kids should start booking jobs while they're in middle school and save it for Junior year in high school.

 

[boombexus]

My point is that the easier you make it to become an immigrant (which I'm all in favor of) the more poor people our welfare state has to support.

True. But is that a problem with immigration or a problem with the welfare system?

Either way you look at it, it's going to cost us money. Whether it be through the guest worker program, or tightening our border security and immigration laws.

For the sake of argument, lets say that Camarota is right and this proposed plan will cost the Federal Government an additional $30 billion a year.
So a decision is made and the government decides that this is a cost that it just can't bear.
Boarder security is tightened, immigration laws become more stringent and the flow of immigrants dwindles.
The first industry to suffer is agriculture. Now this is no small industry and it's an industry that many other industries here in the United States, as well as the world, depend on.

Now farms and other agricultural businesses are forced to find American citizens to fill these jobs. These businesses are forced to restructure and make the jobs desireable to Americans. Those who can't, quickly go out of buisness. Those who can, are now forced to make costly changes to the jobs to make them attractive to Americans. This would probably consist of, at the very least, more comfortable working environments and higher wages.
So lets say that these things work and Americans are now starting to fill these jobs. Soon the Unions move in and drive the employee wages even higher and demand more employee benefits, all this costing the agriculture industry even more money.

Where do these increasing costs end up? Right in the consumers lap. Now a gallon of milk costs $25. Everything in the supermarket is now 100% more expensive. Forget about going out to eat at a restaurant, that is if there are any left in business because menu prices are now increased 150-160%.
Now every other industry that relies on agriculture has to increase their prices as well.

With the increase of prices across many industries, the cost of failed business', a new influx in the unemployment lines, the cost to you and me directly, and now even more of a strain on government aid programs as people find it increasingly difficult to feed themselfs. This alone sounds like it would cost us much more than the $30 billion a year that Camarota seems to believe.

There is no perfect answer to this equation, but not allowing this guest worker program to succeed seems like we will be taking a giant step backwards and will probably cost us more than we could possibly begin to imagine.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Guest worker programs don't work either. Look what's happening in France right now. They have millions of Muslims at work in guest worker programs, but they aren't treated like citizens. So, France wants these immigrant workers to do all the hard labor, yet not retain any rights, and not be paid a fair, livable wage. That's obnoxious as hell, and no wonder they have riots and torched cars.

That's why France changed some labor laws recently for young workers. Now, it's the young workers who are protesting. France lowered their working rights to encourage businesses to hire young French workers instead of relying on immigrants. France is trying to get rid of their immigrant problems by stimulating businesses with incentives to hire legal, young French citizens. But, that only seemed to have pissed off the young workers, but it's a step in the right direction.

What America wants is a continued and more elaborate guest worker program like what France has, or had. Don't you see the same problems happening to us down the road? I do! What can we do to eliminate the need for so many immigrant workers in our country? The answer is not guest worker programs.

 

[YSSMAN]

My quick hits on the current situation:

1) Something needs to be done to stop all current illegal crossings into the US everyday. If it be increasing funding for the Border Patrol, installing the National Guard on the border, or simply giving government backing to the regular citizens who patrol the border would help. The Feds also need to persecute those who aid these illegals with a heavier hand, if it be in crossing the border or supplying empoyment. If they can be stopped at the border, or stopped once they reach the interior of the US, they may as well go home.

2) I suppose the "guest worker" passes could work, but I prefer to use it in a much more devious way. These new "legal" immigrants are going to have to pay taxes out the ass, just like every other American when it comes to living and working here. If they want to be a part of this country, they get to play by our rules for our own people. No free handouts anymore without being registered, paying taxes, and being a documented foreign national here in the US. Theoretically, this may be a turnoff for those that are allready here, and thus some may head back to Mexico.

3) More pressure must be placed on the Mexican government to help decrease these border crossings. Better patrol on both sides would help, but added to that, reforms must happen from within Mexico. As I understand it, the Mexican government uses a similar employment situation as France where jobs can be guaranteed for a certain ammount of time. Doing away with this law will re-open the Mexican job market, and hopefully will presuade more Mexicans to stay within their own country.

The problem is that Mexicans have little respect for American law, and unfortunately for Americans, the Federal and state governments have done little to deal with this situation in the past 20 years. If I had it my way, we would be building a fence, placing millitary security on our border, and granting the permission to shoot on sight (not lethally of course) in order to stop the crossings. Of course, that violates some rules and regulations, but it sure as hell would scare the hell out of those folks who are thinking about crossing the border. I would also want to be able to raid suspected homes of illegals and literally kick them back into Mexico, but that too is completely unfeaseable, and against the law.

About the economics of the issue:

If we are to crack down on Americans who give work to these illegal citizens, we can greatly reduce the number of illegals who are crossing the border. Why cross when there isnt anything more to get? If employers paid wages that would be deemed acceptable to American citizens, generally speaking, those who are out of work would probably be more than happy to just have a job. It is a circular situation here... Giving more people jobs at reasonable wages will increase savings and thus create spending in the economy. With more money to go around, we will all be better off.

However, the arguement that the use of Americans in the Agricultural feild will drive up prices is completely blown out of porportion. Americans did the work for themselves for decades, and prices were never stratosphereically high. Comparitively speaking, we spend far less on food than millions of people even in 1st world nations such as those in Europe and Asia. A price increase may hurt at first, but more Americans are going to have jobs, at that is simply a byproduct of a shift of empoyment that should have happened years ago.

At the same time, I think the American educational system needs to once again think about encouraging young Americans to take on jobs such as automechanics and farmers, as they are the backbones of society, and there will always be money to be made there. In recent history, much of the educational focus has shifted twards colleges and universities, unlike in my Father's era where trade schools were just as popular as other forms of education. Not creating a sterotype of the blue-collar worker as below the rest of us not only encourages equality among Americans, but turns back the clock when the blue-collar worker was the equal in terms of pay and bennefits to white-collar workers.

It is an extremely complex situation, I really think far beyond what any single American or Illegal immigrant can comprehend. I would not be surprised to see riots in the streets if the house version of the bill passes, making every one of the 11 Million illegal immigrants fellons here in the US. The times, they are a changin', maybe not for the better, maybe not for the worse... But it is true, these times are a changin'.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Relying on illegal immigrants to pay all the taxes they owe us, even the $1,000 Bush proposes, isn't going to benefit us in the long run. We still get screwed.

And getting past taxes wont help either. If they can't pay, they'll be what? Jailed? At yet another huge cost to the US. No, that wont work. What will end up happening are all the immigrants settling their tax debts for pennies on the dollar. The IRS will do exactly that. So, no, that wont work, either. We get screwed with that plan, also.

There's no viable solution but to move them out of our country. Then, get the young to work in their place. One in half young adult in SoCal is unemployed and struggling to get a job. That's a huge number. In other places of our country, it's one fourth. It should be less than one twelfth. See what's going on? These kids aren't at work because immigrants have their jobs. That really hurts the US, like you can't imagine.

 

[YSSMAN]

...I completely agree with you Solid, but the problem is, the Feds (particularly Bush) is pushing for the guest worker program, and for the removal of the fellon clause, and thus defeating the most damning portions of the House Bill, which I am in favor of more than the Senate Bill.

...In a world of compromise, we are all going to lose in the long run. But simply kicking out every one of the 11 Million immigrants is estimated to be at a cost of $220 Billion dollars over the next few years, something that will not fit into the US Budget.

 

[TheCracker]

...In a world of compromise, we are all going to lose in the long run. But simply kicking out every one of the 11 Million immigrants is estimated to be at a cost of $220 Billion dollars over the next few years, something that will not fit into the US Budget.

I thought America was a country of approx 260 Million immigrants?

You are a country of immigrants, its what gives you such a rich tapestry of culture.

Immigrants the world over generally don't want to uproot their families and move into an alien culture just to sponge off their welfare, would you? A majority want to work, pay taxes, have a more stable quality of life and be useful members of society.

Illegal immigrants are a slightly different matter, a lot but not a majority are after a free ride at our (tax payers) expense. In Britain we have a large population of recent legal and illegal immigrants - but its the 'national' youth population who are happiest to sponge-off 'benefits' because they can't be arsed to work for minimum wage (which is quite high here in the UK)

 

[FoolKiller]

I thought America was a country of approx 260 Million immigrants?

I believe, judging by the use of the number 11 million, that he was referring to the illegal immigrants.

And then just to get technical:

im·mi·grant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-grnt)
n.
A person who leaves one country to settle permanently in another.

I was born here, as were my parents, so I do not consider myself to be an immigrant as I did not leave one country to move here. My grandmother, she is an immigrant, but of course she came with her family when she was a teenager (91 now) from Canada. She has been here so long that she never refers to herself as an immigrant and never thinks of it that way.

Immigrants the world over generally don't want to uproot their families and move into an alien culture just to sponge off their welfare, would you? A majority want to work, pay taxes, have a more stable quality of life and be useful members of society.

Then I invite them to use the legal naturalization process that we have set up for this, not jumping the border and then avoiding paying taxes. I do feel the laws on this process should be loosened so that more people can come to our country without a drawn out paperwork process.

 

[TheCracker]

Then I invite them to use the legal naturalization process that we have set up for this, not jumping the border and then avoiding paying taxes. I do feel the laws on this process should be loosened so that more people can come to our country without a drawn out paperwork process.

I agree, illegal immigrants are a drain on the countries finances - before you even put welfare into the equasion. In the UK we have them sat around in 'immigration centres' (open prisons) for years before they get their papers processed and they get accepted or declined. How much does it cost the tax payer to put them up for this period of time? Surely employing more people in the imigration offices would be a much cheaper way of sorting the problem?

 

[FoolKiller]

I agree, illegal immigrants are a drain on the countries finances - before you even put welfare into the equasion. In the UK we have them sat around in 'immigration centres' (open prisons) for years before they get their papers processed and they get accepted or declined. How much does it cost the tax payer to put them up for this period of time? Surely employing more people in the imigration offices would be a much cheaper way of sorting the problem?

You all don't have a green card or work visa type thing that they can use before they become naturalized? The US at least has temporary programs that they can participate in while they wait.

Not everyone gets them though, so they have to wait it out in their own country sometimes, but I am only aware of immigration detention centers being used for those that have come in illegally and then got caught.

 

[TheCracker]

You all don't have a green card or work visa type thing that they can use before they become naturalized? The US at least has temporary programs that they can participate in while they wait.

Not everyone gets them though, so they have to wait it out in their own country sometimes, but I am only aware of immigration detention centers being used for those that have come in illegally and then got caught.

I was talking only about the 'illegals' - i don't know how it works with the ones applying through the correct methods.

 

[FoolKiller]

I was talking only about the 'illegals' - i don't know how it works with the ones applying through the correct methods.

Sorry, I got confused. Trying to work and read this at the same time will mess with you.

 

[Danoff]

There are two big issues at work here - security and economic. The security issue dictates that we prevent illegal immigrants from coming over as best we can, and that we deport the ones who are here. It also suggests that we should make it a little easier to get in to America in order to make the job easier on the guys preventing the illegal immigrants from coming over.

The economic problem is the tough one. Yes, companies break the law and hire illegal immigrants and that drives some prices down. But generally speaking poor people cost us all in government services. The reason employers are breaking the law is that there is a large benefit in doing so. Our government has heaped so much overhead onto the average american worker that it has created a black market for employment. The solution?

Just like the security issue, two things need to be done. The employers need to be jailed for bypassing US law and hiring workers illegally. Yes, this may raise the price of some goods a bit, but it's the law. The second thing (and this is the most important) is that the incentive to hire illegally needs to be reduced.

There are several key issues that would reduce the incentive to hire illegally and help our unemployed citizens compete with illegal immigrants:

Social Security
Minimum Wage
Union Protection Laws
Income Tax
Health Care

All of the above place requirements on the employer that give them incentives to hire illegal immigrants, and all of the above hurt our country in more ways than one.

Social Security Employers are required to pay 7% of employees wages to their social security funds, and employees are required to pay another 7%. Eliminate this and you'll not only have a 14% pay increase overnight, but you'll solve one of the biggest financial problems our government faces. Market investment has the ability to more than bridge the gap in social security - so people will come out ahead in the end anyway. Privitization of social security accounts would go far to fix the problem while ensuring that people are led by the hand to save for their own retirement.

Minimum Wage Requiring wages that are higher than a particular job is worth creates unemployment, stifles economic growth, and promotes illegal immigration. Minimum wage hurts everyone more than it helps anyone. It should be elliminated overnight. There is no reason that a job should provide you with any particular lifestyle. The only thing that matters is how much you're willing to do the job for. This would enable high school students to compete directly with illegal immigrants for extra spending money, because high school students generally don't need to provide for themselves.

Union Protection Laws . There's no reaosn that the government should side with employees over employers. They're all citizens of the country and they all deserve "equal protection under the law" according to our constitution. Unions protection laws should be eliminated. But that won't eliminate unions, and that's fine. People have a right to assemble to bargain as a group.

Income Tax Believe it or not income tax can be eliminated and replaced by a sales tax. This has lots and lots of benefits. One of which is that it makes the amount of tax paid a voluntary thing. It would also greatly benefit the poor since they can control their spending much more than their income and save money long enough to get ahead before spending. A sales tax is a near perfect solution to the income tax issues. I think one of the most compelling arguments for the elimination of income tax is that it eliminates the invasion of privacy we all go through with the IRS and removes the average joe from having to calculate their debt to their government. It would eliminate an even more costly problem than illegal immigration, which is that people pay billions of dollars every year to file their taxes - money that would be instantly saved .

Elimination of income tax prevents illegal immigrants from getting around taxes by finding people who are willing to employ them. It would actually create the reverse problem - US citizens would make trips to mexico to purchase goods without paying the hefty US taxes. Customs would have to monitor the sitution.

Sales tax has another benefit to us, it makes other people pay for our government. Illegal immigrants would pay if they purchased goods here. Foreign travelers would pay while they were here, and foreign companies would pay for our government services when they buy American.

Heath Care Forcing employers to provide health care for their employees is like forcing them to provide food. Imagine for a moment if employers were required to provide food to their employees. They would provide the most pathetic, basic food that they could get away with supplying. Employees, not happy with the selection would get upset with what was available and (rather than going out and buying the food they want) they'd demand that the company provide them with better food at no cost to them. Making the company pay for food removes the price incentive from the end consumer. The company has no desire to extract real value from the product, only minimize cost. The employee has no desire to minimize cost, only extract value. Separating those two incentives is a worst case scenario. Food is more vital to life than health care, but for some reason we think health care is more of a fundamental right than food. That assumption helps keep illegal immigration a problem. Employers should not be forced to provide insurance(of any kind) to their employees. Putting the burden back where it belongs - on the sick (read consumer) - is a good way to help eliminate illegal immigration.


So there are a few key steps we need to take:

- Make it harder to illegally enter the country
- Make it easier to legally enter the country
- Make it harder to illegally hire employees
- Make it easier to legally hire employees.

 

[s0nny80y]

Illegal immigration definately makes it harder for legal immigrants to make it here. The wait for a green card for filipinos is long as hell no thanks to "illegal" immigrants crossing the border. btw, the US does have a duty to protect its borders, the Mexican/US makes no difference.

 

[a6m5]

Caller on the radio show mentioned something important today, and I apologize if this was mentioned in this thread already(but it's 8 pages long!).

I always thought that the government needed to come up with some kind of program to let the Mexican people come up to the States legally and work up here legally, because a lot of them work the jobs that most Americans aren't willing to take.

But what this radio show caller mentioned was that, if we let these illegals work here legally, they will no longer be willing to work those jobs either. They will be competing with U.S. citizens for higher paying, desirable jobs. I must say, I can totally see this happening to a certain degree.

 

[FoolKiller]

Caller on the radio show mentioned something important today, and I apologize if this was mentioned in this thread already(but it's 8 pages long!).

I always thought that the government needed to come up with some kind of program to let the Mexican people come up to the States legally and work up here legally, because a lot of them work the jobs that most Americans aren't willing to take.

But what this radio show caller mentioned was that, if we let these illegals work here legally, they will no longer be willing to work those jobs either. They will be competing with U.S. citizens for higher paying, desirable jobs. I must say, I can totally see this happening to a certain degree.

I understand this point but this would still require them to go for an education and whatnot, but if they are just trying to earn money to send back home to their family as quick as possible I don't see this happening.

Another way to argue this is that by giving them a legal status they have to make minimum wage for the crappy jobs and then pay taxes, thus netting less profit than when they were illegal (yes tax refunds would counter this but that doesn't pay the month to month expenses). This of course would make them not want to become legal, and employers would still want to pay illegal workers less money, thus the entire idea of making them legal is void because they wouldn't want it if money was their only motivationg factor.

For the people who come here with their entire family it would be different, but since their children are legal automatically anyway then the argument about them competing for higher paying jobs is void since they have the same opportunities as everyone else and are already doing that.

 

[Danoff]

But what this radio show caller mentioned was that, if we let these illegals work here legally, they will no longer be willing to work those jobs either.

Thus the reason that they come here to work illegally and take jobs we don't want in the first place. Because we're not willing to work for that little money, and neither are they. That means they're literally stealing jobs from American workers since they have an unfair advantage being illegal.

...that's one of the reasons it's called "illegal".

 

[Swift]

Thus the reason that they come here to work illegally and take jobs we don't want in the first place. Because we're not willing to work for that little money, and neither are they. That means they're literally stealing jobs from American workers since they have an unfair advantage being illegal.

...that's one of the reasons it's called "illegal".

Amazing how people have such a difficult time with such a simple concept.

 

[a6m5]

I understand this point but this would still require them to go for an education and whatnot, but if they are just trying to earn money to send back home to their family as quick as possible I don't see this happening.

I did think the same at first. But I have no doubt in my mind that in a decade or so, they will obtain the skills for higher paying jobs. I'm not talking about $30/hr jobs at Intel or anything like that. More like $10-$15, low to lower middle jobs. And while some will send money back to their homes in Mexico, many will start the family here, which is nothing new. With the explosion of hispanic population in some of the states like California and Texas, in a way, they are taking back some of the territories that used to belong to them without even trying.

For the people who come here with their entire family it would be different, but since their children are legal automatically anyway then the argument about them competing for higher paying jobs is void since they have the same opportunities as everyone else and are already doing that.

Yes, but I would expect the numbers of those who do to increase significantly.

 

[Poverty]

I wish we could trade some of our illegal immigrants for some of your latino illegals.

 

[Swift]

I wish we could trade some of our illegal immigrants for some of your latino illegals.

And that would be from where again? You don't have a location on your profile.

 

[Poverty]

Fixed