Formation of an Exploratory Comittee On the Establishment of New Vehicle Research

YSSMAN · Jan 18, 2007

First things first, I want to establish the fact that I don't always condone the creation of these kinds of threads. They often get a little weird, overly opinionated, and normally we come up with the same answers every time. I'm hoping to make this kind of a collecting point of "what should I get?" questions and answers, and maybe give a few of the GTPlanet folks positions as "chairmen" of the "committee" of new car decisions.

...Sall I get things started?

In March, I will have had my current ride, "Jenna" for about three years. She is a 1996 Volkswagen Jetta GL Wolfsburg complete with the 2.0L 8V I4, 5-speed manual transmission, and about a little over 162K on the clock. Things are beginning to get to the point where I may need to consider overhauling many of the parts, as I did just replace the rear shocks, however replacement of the serpentine and timing belts will be required in the near-future. The good news is that the car is still worth as much as what it was when I bought it (about $2500, I got a really good deal on it).

(There she is!)

So then the question becomes, what next?

I would like something that is fairly comfortable, and yet sporty enough to keep my Gran Turismo feelings satisfied. I'd hope for pretty decent fuel mileage, 27-30 is a good starting point on the highway. Price wise I'm a bit flexible. My credit is pretty good, so I know I can get a pretty decent loan on just about anything, however I'm not looking to go out and buy a brand-new car off the lot. I'm looking at a $15K price limit here, maybe something American or German, possibly even Japanese.

Suggestions?

---
More on the idea of the committee...

This may need more discussion that what I would have thought out. Lets iron out the wrinkles here before actually creating it. Think of a Senate or House committee on a given topic and you can get a rough idea of what I'm going for. We would want either seven or nine members, and I would hope to get a wide variety of "experts" on the stand. I'm thinking three American-Domestic guys, three German-European guys, and three Asian-Japanese guys. It should keep debate interesting, and maybe give us more solid answers on a particular vehicle instead of the normal back-and-fourth between two members...

Philly · Jan 18, 2007

Seeing as how my knowledge of the whole "what to get" idea is somewhat limited, I don't think I will be a "committee member." I do forsee the problem of regional disputes. If we have a combination of UK and US guys, things could get interesting, regarding the very different markets.

Anyway, I'm looking for pretty much the same thing. Maybe closer to $10K, probably Japanese or European. American would be OK. It would be cool to import from across the pond (like a Euro-only model), unless that is too pricey.

I am a new driver, so I don't want to be paying body parts for insurance or repairs.

Keef · Jan 18, 2007

Your limit is $15,000!?

Well. The car I thought of was Japanese, and happened to be a Honda. I'm thinking of the 1997-2001 Prelude. The particular version I'm thinking of is the performance-oriented Prelude Type SH (Super-Handling), equiped with electronic rear steering, a DOHC VTEC H22A4 engine, making 195 and 200 horsepower for the '97-'98 and '99-'01 models, respectively. One-hundred fifty-six lb-ft was available. In 1997 the car was named "best handling car under $30,000" by everyones favorite magazine, Car and Driver.

I've driven a stock 1997 during my new car search, in which I ended up with my Sol. The front seats are very nice from a performance and comfort standpoint. The rear seats are very usable. The car I drove was fully equiped with everything available, including a sunroof, so if you want that stuff you can be sure that they offered it. The trunk was also plenty large, though I'm not really concerned with petty things like rear seats and waterproof trunks.

The car I drove was a 5 speed and, in typical Honda fashion, was great fun to shift. I took to the pedals almost immediately, and I am genuinely bad at getting in new cars and going without previous experience. I took to the Sol the same way. The Prelude was plenty quick, and the engine sounded good. It was muted, but the roar of VTEC was still quietly audible. And if you really want The Sound it's as simple as getting an exhaust put on the car. That'll really liven up that roar! The car's steering was nice. I don't know if if had the oh-god-i-cant-turn-it! hard spot when sawing the wheel quickly across center like my Sol, but that's only a problem when you're doing some sort of insane slalom r tight autocross. Just hold onto the wheel when accelerating and turning in reverse (it's a Honda thing). The car is only a 2 door, obviously, but I'm not sure how concerned you are with that possible handycap.

So there's a tiny bit about the 1997-2001 Honda Prelude Type SH, of which a top-notch, excellent example can be had very near my house for less than $11,000, though they are available for much less. If it doesn't sell out in a week. This car definitely deserves a spot on the list. Again, I'd like to stress that you can get many Preludes for well under $11,000. The one I was after was only $5,000.

EDIT: The USDM Type SH did not have a conventional limited-slip dfferential. It used the Active Torque Transfer System (ATTS), and I have no idea what that is, really. But Car and Driver liked it, and I loved it.

Wiki. You didn't actually think I was an expert, did you? :lol:

Boz Mon · Jan 18, 2007

5th Gen Prelude FTW! But seriously, the USDM 5th gens did not have 4 wheel steering. And the ATTS (active torque transfer system) is not an LSD it transfers power to the outside wheel during hard cornering. It is proved that a 5th gen base Prelude is 2 seconds SLOWER than the Type-Sh. But unless you are going to be competitively racing the car, the base is just fine, thats what I have anyway.

Edit: as far as the 5hp bump in 99, it has been proved to be just a marketing scheme. Honda claimed a different header but there have been tests to prove that they are the same.

*goes to search for exact article*

*returns victorious*
http://www.hondaprelude.to/articles/products/5thoemheader.html

Third edit: Two things
1. if you consider a Lude DO NOT get an auto. They crap out and there is like 2 places in the country that knows how to fix them.
2. They were never made without power everything.

YSSMAN · Jan 18, 2007

Keef
Your limit is $15,000!?

The absolute highest I would go would be $15K, but as noted it all greatly depends on money I have at the time, and how much the bank is willing to loan-out. I'd say that $10K is a more than realistic number, maybe I should adjust it... I'm flexible!

On the Prelude: I've always been a Prelude fan (believe it or not...), as my first car nearly turned out to be an '89 Prelude 2.0 Si. It is a car that has been in my family since late 1988, one that my Grandfather bought brand-new, sold it to my Grandma in '90, who then re-sold it to him in '99 (she bought a VW New Beetle), and now sits in his barn completely winterized in a climate-controlled room.

Driving the Prelude has always been amazing because of the absurd handling limits on the car, even as early as the first models. The '89 Si was actually the second he owned, and he nearly bought a third when the next model debuted, but his love for the Nissan Maxima won-out in the end.

My only reservation on the Prelude is insurance costs. I have no idea what they would run on a post-'97 model, but I'm sure that it would be similar to my Jetta. If I could find a model priced well enough, I may look into it. When I was shopping for my current car about three years ago I came upon a few of the lower-level Preludes that caught my eye. Dad wouldn't let me buy them because he though insurance was too expensive, and that the car would be "too fast" for me, but I think thats a bit different now.

...Cars I've been looking into over the past few months:

- 4th Generation Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 or Pontiac Firebird Formula V8: Decent models can be had for well-under $8000, however insurance and gasoline will be the killer. That, and we have snow around these parts...
- Early Cadillac CTS 3.2L: They can be had for a decent price, but manual transmissions are hard to come by
- 4th Generation Volkswagen Jetta Wolfsburg 1.8T or GTI 1.8T: Normally can be had for $10K or less these days, however parts and insurance is what scares me most... I just can't help loving my Volkswagens...
- Late-Model E36 323i or 328i, Early E46 323i or 325i: Parts and insurance scares me, but I always feel I should own at-least one... Maybe go for the early E36 models?
- 2nd Generation Mazda MX-5: I may be able to get a '96 M-Edition, and insurance prices are surprisingly cheap... Snow and comfort makes me hesitate...
- B15 Nissan Sentra SE-R (Spec-V): They are still kinda cheap, were reasonably quick, and looked good (2002 and 2003 only).

...It is going to be six to eight months at the earliest before I could do anything, and even then it may be stretching it a bit. School is still outrageously expensive, and I don't want to get into a financial pinch because I bought a new car. I'm "just looking" I suppose, going through ideas, etc.

Boz Mon · Jan 18, 2007

I bought my Prelude for $7350 (97 with 55k) and insuring it is around 400 per 6 months.

BTW the 2nd generation Ludes out slalomed everything they were compared to, including 911's, and corvettes. 👍

Keef · Jan 18, 2007

I would vouch for a Camaro or Firebird. But I won't. Hopefully your idea of exciting driving is going fast and straight. Nothing wrong with that, but there's me sophisticated ways it could be accomplished.

I don't really know much about the CTS, Bimmers, or V-Dubs, but they are all good cars. I can imagine any of those being satisfying in many ways. The GTI and Jetta 1.8Ts are more comfort than performance oriented, but you know that. Of course, the engines are just as "satisfying" as my little bottle rocket, but without all the dang noise. :lol:

A Miata, eh? I have a friend who just bought one of the previous generation. I can tell you right now that the shift action is amazing. The stick is very short, in the perfect spot--in easy reach from the wheel--and the throws are very short and direct. No slop, and the thing goes in every time. The steering is also RWD/Miata awesome. Of course, everyone knows how great Miatas are to drive. The trunk is miniscule though, and the interior could get uncomfortable if you're not into cocoon-like seats and spaces. Speaking of seats, they're comforable.

Sentra Spec Vs are good cars. They are very comfortable, though with your height the rear seats would be rendered nearly useless. I have a driving friend with one complete with NISMO whatever suspenion parts. The thing is a handler, even stock. Slow as a dog though. Pitiful, really. Though I think something's wrong with his engine, because his car is truly unbearably slow. It should run with mine. And the variable valve timing on them--at 5K, when redline is at 6K--is completely pointless. Goddam it's loud as a mother with Aaron's cold-air, but it doesn't make any extra go. Just VTEC-consuming, jackhammer-muffling, thunderous noise.

Hmmm...

If you could find a 240SX or some other Nissan besides the Spec it may be worth looking into. I have no knowledge of those cars, but it seems plenty of people like them. The later models especially just look fantastic!

And do you by chance own a set of winter rims/tires? I hear your average snow and ice tire can absolutely tranform a car in the snow these days.👍

Eric. · Jan 18, 2007

I'm not sure if they were available with a manual or not, but since you love Holden's Commodore linup why not look for a Caddy Catera?

1X83Z · Jan 18, 2007

'00-'03 Acura 3.2 TL Type-S.

Automatic only.

Keef · Jan 18, 2007

Too bad about the auto, but those cars are quick. I told my cousin in his Cobalt SS S/C, "race this car, you'll beat the hell out of it," jokingly, of course. He didn't realize the thing had 260 horses. The Acura raped the SS, and I was like "See, don't race those. See that Camry? Don't race the V6. See that Accord Coupe with the V6? You might beat it...."

Speaking of that, getting an older Accord coupe with a V6 and a manual would be nice.

An Acura 2.3CL could be okay. THey only have 150 horsepower so they're a little pokey, and the 3100 pounds doesn't help much. But there are tuning parts out there for them, they are comfortable, and they're offered with a 5 speed manual. I want one, actually.

Don't forget about Mazda. If you can find a Mazdaspeed Protege, bag it. In fact, I'm a fan of all the Proteges, especially the Protege5. I think they're really good looking cars. And they're full of zoom-zoom, which is always a good thing. I'm not sure of their quality, comfort, or otherwise how they drive, but I figure they couldn't be too bad. You should think about driving a Protege if yo uget the chance.

Along with the Maz, the Ford Focus deserves a mention I think. Wouldn't it be awesome to find yourself an SVT Focus? Now that's a car I admire. Here's quite a few SVT Foci within 50 miles of 48223, in Detroit somewhere, and many are under $10,000 with decent mileage.

rotary_freq · Jan 18, 2007

I'd say I could offer some help, but to be honest... I can't.

My problem is, I'm really just no good at making descisions, so why would I be any better at helpign somebody else make theirs? What I can say, is though we'll provide some good imput abotu what we think you should buy, it still all comes down to you. I'm know I've pretty much been in your postion before (needing to buy a car, freindly input provided) and pretty much threw out all the advice I got and ended up just buying whatever.

Though, I will admit I look for odd qualities in a car. I'm generally most intrested in the fun factor myself. I don't see the point in owning a car I can't have fun driving. (in otherwords I'd avoid GM at all costs, corvette is an exception)

niky · Jan 18, 2007

Sentra Spec V - just avoid 03's, they're the ones with the catalytic converter cannibalism issue (i.e.: they tend to eat their cats). This was fixed with later Specs. Interior is cut-rate (as are all Nissans), but it's got decent space. Lots of torque-steer there, though, but handling is nice.

@Keef: If your friend's Spec V felt slow, that might have something to do with it. Later Spec V's will be in better condition. As for slowness, they're rated at 7.6 to 60. Not the fastest ever, but they've got helical LSDs, which make then turn in very nicely.

Mazdaspeed Proteges - If it's been autocrossed or raced regularly, find out if the LSD has been welded (non-welded LSDs tend to brake) or replaced or upgraded to the welded unit. Luckily, welded ones go for only 620 dollars (still waiting to order one for my car).

Personally, I'd prefer the older (and vastly cheaper) MP3. No complicated aftermarket-ish turbo system, but it still has the quick and communicative steering rack and a more-than-decent suspension. It's slow, yes (8.3 to 60), but it's a riot to drive. There's a butterfly screw issue on some batches, but there's an official recall, so it will have been fixed by now or the engine will have been replaced free of charge.

Both Mazdaspeed and MP3 have various niggles in regards to suspension bushings, but these are minor things, and vary from car to car... plus they're more problematic in colder states due to the effects of cold temperatures on the bushings.

Interior quality is great, and, as long as you get a car in good condition, they're sweet to drive... even the lower powered Protege5 wagons have nice handling, and a bunch of guys even use those for autocrossing.

If you buy cars like the MSP, MP3 or the SE-R, note the condition of the engine... many street engines will eat a piston if you corner them too hard too many times on track. I've seen this happen to Proteges, to Type Rs, Skylines and Silvias. Most people don't expect it, but on modified tires, you can corner fast enough to cause some serious engine damage unless you're running heavy with oil (easy solution) or a modified oil pan...

And quite a number of owners autocross these cars... because, of course, they're fun to toss around.

Don't know much about the SVT Focus, but I've heard really nice things about the handling on that one, too. Supposedly almost as good as the Mazda or better, depending on who you talk to (opinions vary), but most people who've driven a number of these cars rate both at the top of the heap in terms of handling, with the SE-R down the ladder from them and the previous 160hp Si a little further down... I can vouch that the Mazda still drives better than the current non-Si Civic and the Mazda3 (in most respects).

Aren't considering a Honda Fit? Absolutely hate the steering rack, but once you get over that, it drives like a proper "warm" hatch, sharp, lively, and willing to rotate, despite having a torsion beam rear. Plus, it'll get really good MPG numbers, especially in MT.

1X83Z · Jan 18, 2007

Fairlady240zg · Jan 18, 2007

I vote 300zx.

///M-Spec · Jan 18, 2007

YSSMAN
- Late-Model E36 323i or 328i, Early E46 323i or 325i: Parts and insurance scares me, but I always feel I should own at-least one... Maybe go for the early E36 models?

Don't get an early E36 unless you simply want to trade the joy of putting more money into a Mk IV Jetta than its worth for the joy of putting more money into an E36 than its worth. High milage E36s are generally needy cars. There's all sorts of things they will need. If you want to commit the time and money into them, they can still be an excellent choice for a sporty daily driver, but quite frankly you would do better looking for a lower milage example. The only reason I can think of to get say, a '94 325i w/150k on it is if you want a project car. Then it becomes a very good deal.

You can have your pick of E36s for 15k. Even the M3 coupe or sedan can be had for that amount, though the vert is slightly still out of reach.

My suggestion if you want a BMW? Look for a low milage '99 328is Sport. In '99, if you ordered a 328 coupe with the sports package and the 5 speed, you got the M3 style M-Tech body addenda for free. It was the last year for the E36 and all the 'bugs' were throughly worked out by that time. They can be had for around 10-12k, leaving you plenty in reserve for fixing things or modding the car to suit your tastes.

If you want to stretch a little, you can probably find a 2000 Z3 M Coupe for 15k...

M

Jim Prower · Jan 18, 2007

You know me...I've always been a proponent of Collector cars. I won't say any in particular this time, but I will say that sometimes an older car can make a very nice daily driver.

Perhaps your tastes could warrant one of the old British sports cars...there's also always American Muscle as well, and '70s compacts, AMCs in particular, are getting popular.

Duke · Jan 18, 2007

And, frankly, with the E90 appearing in bigger numbers, the bottom has dropped out of the E46 market. At $15k a decent 2000 323i is well within your price range.

turboash78 · Jan 18, 2007

I love the old 2002-2003 Nissan Maxima SE's... 255 hp, 6-speed, LSD. Definite sleeper, with room for 5!

Keef · Jan 18, 2007

Ahh, there's a suggestion I didn't think of. We need to slap you with more sedans, like turboash's Maxima. You might even be able to find an old Ford Taurus SHO. With the V8. Then you'd have a sort of collector car--rare anyway--and a comfortable sports sedan.

YSSMAN · Jan 18, 2007

Thanks for the input guys, I'm listening. BTW: If there are other people looking for stuff, feel free to ask. It would be nice to get everything into one place...

- Winter wheels/tires are something I don't have on my current car, but chances are that I will invest in a set of Blizzaks and steel wheels on my next ride. We haven't had much snow until about a week ago, so you're damned if you do, damned if you don't around here.

- Nissan 240SX: There was a point in which it was considered, but I think the car is too "hip" for me. They would be fun, but I think I can find other cheap RWD models

- Cadillac Catera: I thought about it, and after doing a bit of research, its a no-no. Four-speed automatics and low-output 3.0L V6s won't fly for me, beyond that, build quality isn't quite as good as what it was on the CTS.

- Acura TL: I like the cars a lot. Automatic-only kinda puts a damper on it though. I'm going to have to drive one to be sure of it.

- Protege: As someone who fell in love with the car after a day behind the wheel of the Protoge5, it is something that I have considered. They can be tricky to find, as I really don't want a fully-loaded model, just the basics and a manual transmission. The hatch would be nice, esp if I'm throwing my bike in the back compared to the trunk, fold seats, bike dance into open area thing I do with the Jetta right now.

Ford SVT Focus: Believe me, I want one, but I think my Dad would kill me if I bought it. Fords don't fly-over too well in our family, no matter how good or bad they may be. I'd have to find an earlier model to get one for a fair-price, however, the insurance does scare me just a bit.

Honda Fit: I was doing some research on resale values with the car, and about a year or so from now most of them should be well within my price range. I'll be keeping an eye out for Fit Sports with the manual, but I have yet to see a used one, and I imagine they will be slow to get back on the market used.

...On the same note, it lead me to do some research on the Rabbit 3-door, and it would be about a year or so before I could get one in range.

- BMW 3-series: Thanks for the details. It seems like more of a long-shot than it should be (CTS is included too), but I'll keep poking around for them. A kid I go to school with has a 323ci, and every time I see it I give it a good look. I love the blue with the tan interior, manual transmission, no other extras. Nice car, but hard to find in that same level of trim.

Maximas: Great car, definitely considered here. As someone who pretty much grew-up in the backseat of his Grandfather's Maximas, I have quite an appreciation for the whole "4DSC" mantra. He owned quite a few of them, however my favorite was the '99 SE Limited. She was pretty fast, quite comfortable, and looked damn-good. Apparently they can be had for pretty cheap, so I may try to search some of them out. As always, manual transmissions are required, so it may be harder to find what I want...

---

...I did talk to Mom about it this morning, and she thinks I should wait. She is probably right, but there isn't any reason why I can't poke around for a while. We should look into replacing her Camry too, but that is a whole 'nother story...

1X83Z · Jan 18, 2007

land sea air · Jan 19, 2007

M5Power
Yaay! A seven-year-old car with 170 horsepower!

hey i own a 20 year old car with 170 horsepower :dopey:

YSS get a Mercedes, trust me I'm not biased ::looks outside at 2 Mercedes in driveway:: But seriously the only two things you would have trouble with would be the almost impossible to find manual and maybe the fuel economy, you could swing a pretty nice late 80s or early 90s E class for 15k, if you could find a 201 body 2.3-16 you could also get your manual transmission as well

Eric. · Jan 19, 2007

Hm...nobody has mentioned the Impreza or Legacy? I'm sure any Subies would be plenty of fun with a stick, and shouldn't get bad gas mileage either.

sn00pie · Jan 19, 2007

Get a Mini Cooper S.

Tornado · Jan 19, 2007

Mercedes 190D 2.5: It's a 190, so it is essentially a perfect car as is. A 190D is probably the fastest of the normal cars, and it gets silly good mileage. Also, in response ot land sea air, the 2.3L should be worth around $10,000-12,000. However, for that money you could get an AMG C43, so what have you.
Volvo 960: The last of the RWD Volvos, and it has a superb 201 BHP I-6.
Volvo 740 Turbo SE: The older brother of the one above, it has less horsepower but is a more sporty car.
Oh, and because I can: Nissan 300ZX Z32

land sea air · Jan 19, 2007

I dont know about that Toronado as Ive driven both standard 2.3 and 2.5D versions and the gasser felt faster even though it was auto and the diesel was stick, also maybe we are thinking of two different Volvo 960s but I'm pretty sure that before her mom wrecked it, my friends 97(?) 960 spun its front wheels when pushed...

EDIT: Bah!!! I looked it up and proved myself wrong... guess it makes sense though considering the 740 and 850

Duke · Jan 19, 2007

YSSMAN
- BMW 3-series: Thanks for the details. It seems like more of a long-shot than it should be (CTS is included too), but I'll keep poking around for them. A kid I go to school with has a 323ci, and every time I see it I give it a good look. I love the blue with the tan interior, manual transmission, no other extras. Nice car, but hard to find in that same level of trim.

Keep shopping. It took a couple months, but I found precisely the options I wanted when I bought my 325 last Feb:

Sport package (an absolute MUST HAVE - the seats alone are worth it; let alone the better suspension, bigger wheels, and lower stance. The silver car I linked to is a Sport - the steering wheel and seats show it)
Manual trans
Leather interior with seat heaters
Xenons
Moonroof
NOT the Premium package (which that silver one does have)

About 1 in 5 3-series is a manual, and about 1 out of those 5 has the Sport pack. Fortunately most people want ATX/Premium so you can get good deals on the more-focused version.

M5Power
Yaay! A seven-year-old car with 170 horsepower!

Shuddup, you. Not everyone wants a 2-ton behemoth with an automatic transmission that hits an arbitrary 0-60 time and rides like a couch.

niky · Jan 19, 2007

M5Power
Everyone but me has suggested an economy car, save for the token Mustang/Camaro suggestions and the odd Cadillac Catera suggestions.

Mazda MP3? Lord.

I was going to respond to this, seeing as how you're badmouthing my favorite little car in the whole world (well, it really had to be since I actually went and got one)... but you've been called out!

Duke
Shuddup, you. Not everyone wants a 2-ton behemoth with an automatic transmission that hits an arbitrary 0-60 time and rides like a couch.

Seriously, it ain't all about 0-60 times (though they do help). :lol:

But then again, if it's a jibe on the name... yes, Mazda really shouldn't have... :dopey:

-----

I think getting an E46, if you can find one in that range, would be awesome.

I still think the E46 coupe body style is a work of art.

My only comment on the Maxima is possible headgasket problems, but I don't know if that's common in the US or merely limited to our local lower-displacement versions... you'd need to look that up. Still, sweet riding cars, but not as sporty as most.

YSSMAN · Jan 19, 2007

...To be honest, 0-60 times are great, but considering that I'm getting by with 10-ish seconds to 60 MPH, just about anything is a bit faster than what I have now...

I don't need something substantially faster than what I have, but quicker would be nice... Fuel mileage counts too, but I'm a bit flexible with that. Insurance is my greatest fear, and that is what has kept me shopping for so long. Good news is that I have to help my Aunt buy a car (new-ish sedan, preferably V6-powered, etc) before I can get mine, so that means plenty of test-drives of new vehicles to get the idea of what I want honed in a bit better.

...I've even considered asking a friend of mine to think about picking me up an old 9C1 (Caprice), or a B16 (Camaro). He collects and trades old police vehicles, so he may be able to hook me up. We'll see. I've got a while to shop.

niky · Jan 19, 2007

An ex-police Caprice in police livery? Coolness... do you get to keep the lights? :lol:

But seriously cool... the Caprice was the last car we had before we left the US back in 80'.

But seriously, I envy you, sounds like the next few weeks will be fun, test-drive wise. :sly:

Formation of an Exploratory Comittee On the Establishment of New Vehicle Research

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