Definitive proof. AI Cheating.

As many of you know, I've been compiling a GT3 Blow by blow document that shows my progress through the game. My attempts at matching a car to the AI so I just barely beat them has been the guiding factor. I began to notice in the Rally section that I was never able to increase my lead by more than 3 or 4 seconds. Tahiti maze, I was able to spin the AI out, and had nearly a 7 second lead, which he made up in less than a half lap.

At that point I paid more attention to lap times, and AI distances. Last night I found that the AI was able to keep within 2 seconds of me. I tested this in the Spoon Civic first, then my trusty Celica FF. This is an excerpt of the Amateur FF races.

FF Challenge - Amateur
I hopped into my trusty Celica SS-II (Which I won the FF Professional with).
Methinks the Amateur shouldn’t be too tough.

Deep Forest
FTO GP Version R: + 1.214
Celica SS II: + 2.037
Civic Type R: + 2.835
Civic SiR II: + 3.717
CR-X Del-Sol: +4.639

Best Lap: 1’24.187

This is where PD starts to irritate me. I ran a 1’24.187 and second place was 1.2xx behind me. My next lap was a 1’25.432, and the AI was 1.3xx behind me. My following lap was 1’25.968, and the AI was 1.214 behind me. I’m starting to believe that the AI gets a boost when trailing.

Rome Circuit
FTO GP Version R: + 1.109
Civic Type R: + 2.154
Civic SiR II: + 2.368
156 2.5 V6 24V: + 3.299
CR-X Del Sol SiR: + 4.289

Best Lap: 1’37.491

I gained the lead just after the first corner. By the first section (Time check) I was 1.3xx seconds in the lead. For the first three laps I could not hit the “leading by 2.xxx seconds” mark. On lap 4 I slowed down and let the AI pass me. For the first three laps I was turning in lap times of 1’37.5xx – 1’38.000. I let the AI lead for one lap, and it turned in a 1’50.662 time. I felt at any point I could punch the throttle and easily blow by the AI. Lap 5 I blew by the AI, and turned a 1’41.563, 4+ seconds slower than my fastest lap. The AI finished 1.109 behind me. So now to test the theory, I'm going to run 3 slow laps following the AI, then 2 fast laps leading the AI, then upload the Replay to have someone double check me. This down right Sucks. I thought all this time, I was picking just the right car, just the right mods to keep it competitive, when all I had to do was throw a bunch of mods on, and race. I’d still win, but PD assured it would only be by a few seconds. So much for a fair race. It may be time to invest in WRC.

Apricot Hill II
So testing the theory, I’m going to let the AI lead for 3 laps, then blow by and run 2 laps in the lead.

Celica SS-II: + 1.710
Civic SiR: + 2.578
156 2.5 V6 24V: + 3.181
Civic Type R: + 3.353
CR-X Del Sol SiR: + 4.428

Best Lap: 1’34.873

I walked away with 24,000cr and the Celica TRD Sports M. And in my favorite color! Black! (serious, no sarcasm).

I could have taken the lead before the first bridge, but just settled into second place. In the replay I watched from the 3rd place car to watch how the AI ran in comparison to my racing. The Back straight showed the AI leader as topping out at 89mph, top speed on the front straight was 112mph. What I found funny was that my speedo said 130+ MPH on the front stretch, and the AI only showed 112+. The back stretch showed me at 115+ and the AI still at 90. Yet I was unable to outrun the AI even with our speeds showing such ridiculous differences. I can't remember lap times off the top of my head, but have vague recollections of 10-15 second slower lap times. Disappointment abounds. And yes, I have the replay, available to be e-mailed. I’d upload it but haven’t figured that out.

So my consensus states that the AI cheats. Badly.

Too add to this:
Computer DOES cheat, caught on REPLAY....

AI Rally cars faster when losing? (this was where I first started to notice the cheating)


AO

Hmmmmm. Wasn't there a recent thread indicating that there were errors in the speedo during replay? I read that here not long ago.

I think the AI is not subtle in the the way it adjusts for your ability (read my schizo TT post from today). But I'm not convinced it violates the physics model that badly (though the AI can resist my shoves and punches better than I can resist theirs, it's true).

I'll have to do some scientific investigation as well and see what I can see. Good job as always!

This happens in GT2 as well but sometimes to a lesser extent. Have you knoticed that when you stay in the pack , all the AI cars seem to become very competitive. When you get into first position and gain some lead over them, they seem to give up. This seems to happen in most races apart from the hardest series. Examples of these challenging races in GT2 and GT3 are

GT2
GT300 Series (only if you use something of the equivalent power level)
GT500 (If you use something with slightly less power)

GT3
Professional Yaris/Vitz cup
Professional GT Allstars
Polyphony digital cup (if you use an equivalent power car)

As I reflect on the Vitz/Yaris races, it did seem to surprise me that they could keep up even though I had modified my Vitz to the full extent. My thoughts are that PD "boosts" the AI when they fall more than 2 seconds behind. While I could easily outrun them, PD gives them an advantage to catch up. When they catch up, PD takes away the advantage, and they slowly slip back. Boost/ slip back repeat. I'll rerun the Vitz professional again, hanging on to second place and note my best laps to compare to my previous run. I haven't run teh PD cup yet so I can't compare. I will pay very close attention to it now though...

Never having played GT2, I can't verify your findings there.

Arrrghhh...

AO

Some tracks on the Vitz cup were quite hard SSR11 mainly. But mostly I managed to gain a lead of over 6 seconds. There is something about SSr11 that makes the AI cars go faster. Man your hammering PD but I dont blame ya. Just wait for Codemasters pro race driver (Or TOCA Racedriver) you WILL get serious hassle from the AI by going by the previous games in the series oh and dont ram them to harshly THEY WILL HUNT YOU DOWN AND PURPOUSLY MAKE LIFE HARD FOR YOU BUT NOT IN THE WAY GT3 DOES THIS IS REAL LIFE LIKE AI MAN sorry had to shout. WRC is quite easy but I enjoyed playing it allot, if you like rallys it will be for you but its only a stopgap for Colin Mcrae 3. Im gonna shout about this aswell BEST DAMAGE MODEL IN A RACING GAME......EVER!!!.

I recently did a race in amatuer mode. can't remeber the car but it was at Grand Valley I think.
I could not pass the lead AI car but I kept it within about 2 seconds. Once it pitted I was like 20 seconds ahead. He made up this 20 seconds in less than half a lap but once he passed me he could not pull away. My lap times stayed pretty consistant within a couple of seconds. It pissed me off that he could gain so much time in half a lap. it prevented me from winning this race on pit strategy.
SO I agree AI does cheat when it wants too.

Cheers SteveP

I have also noticed that in some races I cannot loose the AI cars. Even when my laps differ with several seconds the AI always stays behind for the same amount of time.
Most of the time I find that I get in front of the pack easily but then (eventhough I got in front easily and way faster) they always keep up.

Originally posted by neon_duke
(though the AI can resist my shoves and punches better than I can resist theirs, it's true).

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I've noticed this too... it's incredibly difficult to spin out the AI if you're running a car with around the same amount of hp as them, yet they can easily spin me out with a small nudge... terrible... Also, it's incredibly hard to force cars into the pit area, yet I have been bumped in there...

You must be ramming them in the wrong places man. Just make sure you remember the corners where the AI pile into you and you will be a dirty driver just like me when im half asleep. Hey you youth cycler. I spend a little time away from this forum to get a new job and you gain 50 more posts than me in two days damn you!
J/k

note: never get a job again

Originally posted by Y2TUSCAN
You must be ramming them in the wrong places man. Just make sure you remember the corners where the AI pile into you and you will be a dirty driver just like me when im half asleep.

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Yes, the apex of the corner is the best place to play dirty, but still, the AI shows an amazing amount of resistantce...

Hey you youth cycler. I spend a little time away from this forum to get a new job and you gain 50 more posts than me in two days damn you!
J/k

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Heck, I'm on summer vacation, what can you expect?

You have'nt seen cheating until you played Test Drive.

um,the AI does not cheat i spun the ai out on tahiti Maze and put him back 8 seconds back and he never cought up to me and i was racen my lucky(NORMAL)EVO7 Rally car

Originally posted by Supra897
You have'nt seen cheating until you played Test Drive.

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now thats a fact!!!!!!!!You get a slower car than the AI until u race for pink slips on the XJ220

I was just mucking round with my Honda Integra Type R (276hp) in the Amatuer FF Championship, and made a rule for myself, to not pass any cars until i cross the finish line for the 2nd lap.

This is at Deep Forest Raceway, by the way.
So while i was cruising (and i was) behind them, the wee Honda Civic took 2nd place from the Type R Civic and the Mitsubishi FTO led the race. As soon as i crossed the finish line, i floored it and got past the Alfa 156 before the corner, he passed me under braking (I took the corner too narrow) but then i put my foot down and passed 2 cars going up that little rise, then i waited behind the Civic Type R until the corner which heads into the first tunnel.

I took that corner a little wider into entry than him, and i got past him on the inside as we headed for the tight right hander before the 2nd tunnel. Then i flew past the Civic (Non-Type R one) on the back straight, and caught the FTO at the second last turn. (after the last tunnel) then i grabbed a little of his slipstream, and just got past him, on the inside, before the last corner, and from then on, i couldn't get more than 3 seconds away from him. No matter how hard i pushed the Teggy.

And that p-ed me off, as realisticly, i would have finished the race at least 15-20 seconds ahead of him.

PD have really screwed up on this one. I hope like heck that this does not appear in GT4...

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!I FF cup is that hard!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by youth_cycler
Heck, I'm on summer vacation, what can you expect?

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Vacation now your just making me jealous, I think im not going to "work" at work I think ill "post" instead
Im just soooooooooooo funny

Originally posted by Y2TUSCAN
Vacation now your just making me jealous, I think im not going to "work" at work I think ill "post" instead
Im just soooooooooooo funny

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Oooooo-kkkkaaaayyy...

Oh dear, I spelled "resistance" wrong, didn't I? My spelling is going into the guterr.

I mean I have to sit in a IT lab most of the day at work when you are outside doing some sort of activity. I know do you rollerblade??

youth_blader (kinda sounds like bladder )

what I didnt notice you spelled something wrong untill i double checked.

Originally posted by Y2TUSCAN
I mean I have to sit in a IT lab most of the day at work when you are outside doing some sort of activity. I know do you rollerblade??

youth_blader (kinda sounds like bladder )

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Nope, I don't blade... Mainly because where I live, the road hasn't been repaved for many decades (I'm talking some 50 years here!), so if I tried blading I would absolutely destroy those fragile wheels... Thus, my passion for mountain biking.

Bleah, it's actually too hot to really do anything outside right now... In fact, the only exercise I'm getting is from my Track&Field and Cross Country training at my high school... when I get home I'm too exhausted to do anything else but sit at my computer! :smilewink

what I didnt notice you spelled something wrong untill i double checked.

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Untill, eh?

I know, I never catch my spelling errors until I re-read my posts... I'm too lazy to use the preview button.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Just to prevent this thread from being the "youth_cycler's life story thread", I'll just reiterate on something.

As I said in the "Ai" thread, the only time I've noticed the cheating was at Smokey Mountain II... the other car was behind me by 2 seconds, and I ran consistent times, and so did it, but then suddenely it leaped ahead by some 7-8 seconds. I got so flustered by that race...

Also, realistically, wouldn't it cost PD less to just not include this whole boosting AI nonsense?

The boost is only usefull for 2player or 6 Player I.LINK!!!!

Well, I didn't run the Clio in Beginner MR tonight, but I did try another experiment: Camaro racecar in the Beginner Stars & Stripes.

Tarnation - I just went back through the notes, and now I can't figure out what I was noting!

If I read this right, he did 8 seconds a lap better (avg 1':10".45 at Seattle) following me, than he did when I was staying behind him (avg 1':18".10). But don't quote me on that or freak out yet, because there is a decimal place missing in my notes, and I'm not sure if it is a total race time or an interval... Grrrr!

Thanks Neon:

My wife had to slip out for an hour to close down the store, so I did get some time on it last night. I raced the first 4 races of the European Championship. I attempted it in my FF celica and that didn't work. So I jumped in my newly won CLK touring car did an oil change and went for it. I was easliy able to take the lead, and hold it for the win. On three of the races, I let the AI lead for the second lap, and then outrun him for the final lap.

The times did not reflect cheating as bad as it did in some of the single races. I'm starting to get the impression that the cheating is only in the single races, not in the series races or Enduros. I've got a few days to do some serious racing, then extensively document my findings.

I was planning on running the Beginner MR with the Clio, but I haven't won it yet.

Thanks for the info.

AO

Man - if I had a dollar for everytime I've outqualified the AI by 15 seconds, and then won the 3 lap race by 5 seconds after three perfect laps...

Well, last night I also ran the last two races of the TT cup - SS11 and Monaco - in a lightened TT on super slicks. I was able to win both races by approximately the same margin that I beat them in qualifying (not a 3 lap multiple). However, I ran the replays using the driver view from the second place car, and every time they got near me, it was obviously due to error on my part.

Maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Could it be that PD gave the single race AI cars a boost handicap, but not the series races? This may merit so review.

Thanks,

AO

Further proof of the AI and their sleazy ways.

Excerpt:

I didn’t want to bother with the competition and I knew the AI would cheat, so I jumped in my 787B and devastated the competition.

Turbo Challenge – Amateur
Test Course
Silvia Spec R Aero: + 44.250
Legacy B4 Blitzen: + 59.168
New Beetle RSi: + 59.219
Audi S4: + 1’00.685
MR2 GT-S: + 1’47.357

Best Lap: 1’44.200
Total time: 5’22.810

Further proof of the AI Cheating
My last lap around the Test course showed me topping out around 228mph, on a 1’44.200 lap time. My average speed Calculated out to be 222.012 mph.

The second place car, a Silvia Spec R Aero turned in a lap time of: 1’57.106. If you take the length of the track 6.426 miles divide it by 117.106 seconds it gives you 0.05487336259 miles/second. Which equals an average speed of 197.544mph. In the replay (available for upload) it shows a top speed of 194 for a split second and consistently reaching 193mph. And yes it does it in 6th gear. So we can assume it has been modified.

AO

Well, that's definitely uncool. Now I am angry!

Lets keep in mind that this is a game. It is intended to be fun. If there wasn't any competition, would you be having fun? I've noticed that there is a slow car boost in Simulation Mode which allows the AI to catch up more quickly, but have you noticed that there is a lead car drag as well? I couldn't count how many times I've put my car into the wall and was still able to catch the leader and win the race.

They call it a simulator. It simulates reality. It is not actually reality. If it were, you'd die when you leave the road at 120+mph.

It is intended to be fun. When you realize that it isn't wholey accurate and are bothered by that truth, it's time to find other ways to have fun with the game.

http://forums.gtplanet.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9764

~LoudMusic

Well, it's true, it is a game, not real life. But really I'd rather win and lose on my own merits rather than have the game bend reality to fit what I'm doing.

I have enough self-discipline to choose my cars carefully to match the competition (when I care), since I don't enjoy blowout victories.

I would rather less computer effort be made in falsifying the on-track performance of the competition, and more effort be made in matching the cars entered by the AI to my car selection. That's all.

I'll ditto Neon in response to LoudMusic. I never really thought about OLR, but with the Cheating issue (Yes it is an unfair bias with benefits), I have begun to think of the OLR as a serious option.

Unfortunately I can't play every night, which may limit my ability to be competitive.

Thanks for the suggestion LoudMusic, I'll attempt it soon.

My whole gripe revovles around winning and losing based on my abilities. If the AI gets a boost, it enacts a detriment to the spirit of the Simulator.

AO