◆ SNAIL [Spec] Racing - Currently Recruiting for GT7 - JOIN TODAY!!Open 

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Wow, lots of good discussion Tyler and Ap last night! I'm not in D3 or D1 so I can't address the questions posed to those drivers. Let's here what they have to say. However, can address the proposition of a "rookie league". I'm not in favor of it. While we do have new members join us all the time, we don't have so many as to form a separate division for them. There were lots of other points brought up that had merit. Let's see what the other snails have to say about them.
 
esh
I've got a car in mind but it requires all golds for a specific license. I'm guessing that would be out of the question for some people based on interest/time so I will go with this:

http://www.mygranturismo.net/car_sheet.php?id=688

Nissan GT-R SpecV '09 @ Laguna Seca


I would rather do the GT Academy version of the car in honor of GTA starting today but I understand not everyone will have the car or time to get it.

I also like penalties on as far as that discussion is concerned.

Prize B will be track change to: Grand Valley

Thanks to esh and Mopar for announcing their Prize A and Prize B car and tracks. The line-up has been updated. As we do every Wednesday night, we'll run this new line-up tonight. However, we'll turn penalties off tonight so that anyone who hasn't voted on the matter can make up their mind and vote! Laguna Seca is an especially good track to test out what happens when there are no shortcut penalties and how we'll manage that without too much hassle.
 
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…and I thought that my mistakes were "little"


I still finished last, though. :D
 
Wow. Tyler could sell ice to an Eskimo. :)

Some very interesting thoughts, there. I've raced in other leagues with heavy damage and no penalties, and I would vote for that here, too, but let me play devil's advocate. Coming from personal experience (I was D1 before all the fast people showed up), D1 is intense. A number of the drivers there take it quite seriously. With light damage on, when someone misses a brake point and slams into the back of "Elite Driver A" and they take damage, they only lose a couple of spots. They may even make it back to the front of the pack. But with heavy damage in the same scenario, "Elite Driver A" drops to the back of the pack for the race, and likely loses their shot at a podium for the week.

Now, I don't usually practice for Sunday nights (and I have the extra couple of seconds on my lap times to prove it), but if I did put in the laps to get my times down to elite levels, just to have JoeSlow take me out of contention with a careless move, I'd be really mad.
 
Those are my points, spooble.

In fact, last night, before my few posts on the subject and after
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(still love the banner)
I ran in a few races in a public room. Dealership stock cars/comfort soft tires/heavy damage/I don't even know about penalties (we were on city courses).

I had the lead through the first two and a half laps of one race. The driving was mostly clean, but not spotless. I got nudged from behind a bit on two occasions. One of those nudges gave me damage at the point of contact, but the other guy had none. I managed to keep it together, though, and stayed in the lead.

The other nudge sent me just a tad loose through a turn, causing me to graze a wall in Rome, and I took damage on the front, at the opposite corner from the first damage. Again, the other guy took no damage (I don't know if it was the same guy or not). This one caused me to slow down a bit, as I just couldn't hold a line through a corner anymore.

Neither nudge was really dirty, and I think both of them were caused more by being on CS tires than any amount of driver neglect or ill will.

Was it fair that I took that damage and was slowed for the rest of the race? I don't think so. After all, I was in the front, racing cleanly, not brake checking, blocking, or doing anything else generally considered to be inconsiderate. But, I was the one punished for it, and lost a lot of time in just a lap and a half.

The biggest problems with heavy damage are that it takes in mind no fault, it seems even easier to get applied to your vehicle than light damage, and it is a catastrophic event in a short race.

Light damage is a deterrent, as are penalties, as is the protest/grievance/steward system. Heavy damage is a deterrent, yes, but it is also a cruel and unfair mistress.
 
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Didn't I see you driving backwards for a while? :confused:

I spun out when my tires were worn and touched the dirt on the outside of turn 3. That's when I went from 2nd to last place. Any attempt to get back on track would have messed up everyone behind me.
 
To those who were involved in the
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last night:

I was going to post a full results page, but I failed us all.

When I went to watch the replay, I decided it was a fine time to clean out my replay folder. Unfortunately, I got moving too fast, and accidentally deleted all of my replays when I was trying to delete about the 20th one. So, you won't be getting any stats from me any time soon.

My utterest apologies. :guilty:

Yeah. I said utterest.
 
I was going to post a full results page, but I failed us all.

When I went to watch the replay, I decided it was a fine time to clean out my replay folder. Unfortunately, I got moving too fast, and accidentally deleted all of my replays when I was trying to delete about the 20th one. So, you won't be getting any stats from me any time soon.

My utterest apologies. :guilty:

Yeah. I said utterest.

I'm sure someone saved it and will upload it to the share. I'd be happy to watch the video and post the results.
 
Wow, Zero, so many changes going on, you gotta have your hands full! Now, perhaps I'm a touch off base, but when I joined the league, the I in S.N.A.I.L. was intermediate. Since then a slew of great racers have signed on and things have changed dramatically. However, I think one of the key points to this league was that it wasn't aimed at the hardcore elite racers. I'm starting to get the feel that this is now where the league is headed. I think we are getting away from some of the things that made the league a success to begin with. It is easy to get into the races here. It's not complicated and so rules stricken that you have a 5 page OP to go through. The premise was easy, get the weekly cars. break them in, then race on Sunday. Then the addition of a third division (I have little doubt we will see a fourth soon), rules began to become amended. Some I feel are in the best interest of the group as a whole. The new points system, the addition of the steward network, and looking at a new prize system to compliment the expanding league are great things. However, I think some things are starting to take the league away from its roots and may put it into a class that the lower division racers may not care for.
One of the things I think that is important to keep is integrity from Division to Division. The rules and regulations shouldn't be changed at you move up the ladder. I feel this is inline with the TCS discussion about 100 pages back. Even a simple system may overly complicate the process of moving up, getting rule confused. And as the league grows and more divisions are added, are we then going to expect a whole new set of rules for all the divisions below D1? It would leave to many things uncertain.
Now, I know that I was originally for penalties off, as a trial run (glad to see that its getting a shot tonight, I may try and make it tonight to check it out) but others have had a good point. Its great at policing up drivers. Its always looming, you cant escape the eyes of the penalty system. Even flawed, its always watching. As a steward, I can tell you, its possible to miss this kinda stuff as your on the 5th race and you've just watched every race before hand 10-12 times. your eyes get tired and you miss stuff. Penalties on takes care of a lot of that, and makes it so we only have to watch whats needed for a grievance.
As far as penalties and ghosting are concerned, here's my take. Unless we plan on going into a full stewardship situation where all races are watched and all incidents are noted and investigated, leave them on. See, with them off, everyone is going to have to be watched, someone who pulls away from a group will probably be able to start cheating and never get caught, because they can't be seen. Of course we have replay hawks out there taking pics and videos, so in the end they may get caught, but the opportunity and temptation are there. Same for someone in the rear trying to catch up. With ghosting, if someone in the midst of a pack suddenly losses it for whatever reason, they probably won't be collecting that whole pack up and depositing them off track, into the gravel, and stuck against the tire wall. Pro. And we all know the con. you get hit from behind, now you get the collision penalty and have to slow down for a few seconds. ( at this point I would like to point out, a penalty generally sounds worse then it is. Usually you get the penalty in a corner, and at least half of the penalty is spent correcting yourself and getting back on course, and another quarter of the penalty after that negotiating the corner, and you never stop, so its not like in a 6 second penalty, your actually losing 6 seconds, maybe just a second or two).
Now damage falls inline with this flow of debate as well. Though, while the pros and cons of penalties are more equal, I feel damage is a little heavier on the cons side. A pro, Everyone will be far more cautious with their driving. Con to that pro, it will no doubt deter some of the D3 and D2 racers as well as "intermediate" drivers looking to join. Hmmm, And I can't really put a finger on another pro. Cons, the races are to short. if you gotta pit to repair, thats the end of your race, period. why even bother making the end race times 2:30? not like your gonna catch up to the pack in 2 or 3 laps. Now with penalties off. Someone misses their brake point for whatever reason, and then proceeds to plow into 3 or 4 cars, collecting them up and taking them out too. 3 or 4 racers are now out of podium contention because the offending racer didnt get ghosted. And if the offending driver allows all of those people to go ahead of them, then there will be no foul against that driver. I have issue with that. Light damage is great though, along with weak penalties. Ghosting may allow people to drive through you (this is against OLR btw, if your not in a penalty situation, then other drivers should treat you as if you weren't ghosted, I think this should be added to our OLR and be a punishable grievance, and if you did get a penalty, then you shouldn't be in the racing line anyway, ALL the way through your penalty), but at least it helps in minimizing collateral damage.
So in conclusion (take that english professors!) I think one league, one standardized rule set, and damage and penalties should stay the same.
 
I wold be willing to reverse my vote to leave the penalties on if we do something about driving through ghosted cars while they are at speed or after your contact has cause them to ghost. The OLR even states that you should avoid ghosted cars as they may return to solid form at any time. I would think that we should avoid ghosted cars as if they were solid.

In D1 I have seen drivers push a car toward another spinning car until they car they were pushing ghosted and then they drove through it. I have seen a driver take two corners to drive through a ghosted car. I have seen drivers have thier own car ghost and drive through two or three cars in turn and gain those positions.

I feel we should have a rule that you are not allowed to drive through other cars to imporve your position. The only exceptions to these rules would be cars that are ghosted due to penalty (which are supposed to pull off the racing line), and cars that are ghosted becasue they are sideways.

Make these types of incidents just like every other incident and I'll vote for the penalties to stay on.

In other words, what rally said toward the end of his post. Make ghost abuse a penalty like any others. It's already in the OLR so let's enforce it.
 
I feel we should have a rule that you are not allowed to drive through other cars to imporve your position. The only exceptions to these rules would be cars that are ghosted due to penalty (which are supposed to pull off the racing line), and cars that are ghosted becasue they are sideways.

In what situation would a car be ghosted that they shouldn't be surrendering the racing line anyway? (Other than lapped traffic)
 
.

In D1 I have seen drivers push a car toward another spinning car until they car they were pushing ghosted and then they drove through it. I have seen a driver take two corners to drive through a ghosted car. I have seen drivers have thier own car ghost and drive through two or three cars in turn and gain those positions.
There was one right there. I've also seen people bump someone into ghosting, and then run right through them. This shouldnt be allowed. the person behind made the mistake, and then capitalized on the fact that not only did he force the driver in front off line, making them slow, but because the ahead driver ghosted, the driver behind just drove right through. To often in D1, I have seen this happen. driver a in the front spins, driver b dead behind slows, as well as driver c. Driver d on the other hand reacts to late, bumps driver c, because driver c is right on driver b, the collide, driver b and c ghost, driver d drives through them all. That's not acceptable. Both b and c should still be treated as if they aren't ghosts, and driver d should still be behind the other two drivers. While there is other precedence in the example for a grievance, it serves itself as a good example.
 
In what situation would a car be ghosted that they shouldn't be surrendering the racing line anyway? (Other than lapped traffic)

Light contact to the back of your car can cause it to ghost with no penalty and no real loss of speed. Being bumped in the pack in turn one of any given track can cause a car to ghost. These situations do not incur a penalty but do cause your car to ghost. The line through the first right hand corner at Autumn ring casued cars to ghost for a split second.

It's all part of the game's collision avoidance system. Any time the game senses you might come into contact with anything, especially another car, it can cause your car to ghost. This doesn't cost you any speed but it does make it to where other drivers can, an do, drive through you as if you weren't there. This is the part that needs to be disallowed.
 
Sometimes a car goes ghost for a bad reason. A little rubbing in a corner and one car might go ghost, even if he wasn't the instigator.

Ghosting should definitely be treated as it is written in the OLR, and I have been looking at it that way in any situation where I have been called in as a steward. There is no doubt that any ghosted car should be treated as though it were solid. In my mind, ghosting is more for saving a big wreck than for allowing others to pass through after the fact.

In fact, last night in
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zer0 and I were a lap behind, so we were both ghosted. Despite this, I did not attempt to pass him by driving through him. I treated it as any typical passing situation, and avoided all contact by any means.
 
Something else to note about ghosting. If your not in a penalty situation. you may not know you're ghosting. I drive in bumper cam view, so the only way I know Im a ghost is if the person behind me drives through me or I have a penalty count down on my screen. So, for the preemptive strike against "well, if your a ghost, you should move off the line anyway" debate, one may not know they are a ghost, further more, if they aren't under a penalty, then they shouldn't have to get off the line anyway. All ghosted cars should be treated as solid, so driving through a ghosted car that has a legitimate stake to the track should be avoided as such.
 
I always avoid ghosted cars anyways. Never know when they will re-appear. With my luck, most of the time it would re-appear right before I pass through.

With penalties off, I don't think keeping track of penalties manually will be as big of a deal as it is being made out to be. (I guess this could just be me being optimistic about other's online etiquette) Not only will people be keeping an eye on each other during the race, there are a lot of people (including myself) that save the replays and will go back and watch them. So it's not like you'd have to watch everyone all the time, just packs together and maybe a guy or two per race that end up on their own way ahead or way behind. The guy lost in last doesn't really matter too much. If he cheats and never catches back up, it's not so big of a deal. If someone catches it though, he probably should get a DQ for that round. Even if it didn't gain them any positions.
 
I agree with the wall of text that Rallywagon posted. The reason I joined S.N.A.I.L. was for the emphasis on clean and competitive races for non-professional racers. The new points system is now much easier to understand, which makes it friendly to new snails. The PP range for tires was adjusted based on feedback from the community.

Right now, I think the current prize system is good the way it is. Personally, it makes me desire being in D1. I want to improve my racecraft knowing that there are people who can drive faster, make passes easier, and maintain consistency longer.

I originally thought S.N.A.I.L. would be a great place to start racing with like-minded GT5 players, then maybe move on to more serious groups. Now that I've done a handful of events with you all, I don't see a reason to leave. Races are still serious business, but when not on the track there is a great sense of mutual respect and jokes to go around.
 
I agree with the wall of text that Rallywagon posted. The reason I joined S.N.A.I.L. was for the emphasis on clean and competitive races for non-professional racers. The new points system is now much easier to understand, which makes it friendly to new snails. The PP range for tires was adjusted based on feedback from the community.

Right now, I think the current prize system is good the way it is. Personally, it makes me desire being in D1. I want to improve my racecraft knowing that there are people who can drive faster, make passes easier, and maintain consistency longer.

I originally thought S.N.A.I.L. would be a great place to start racing with like-minded GT5 players, then maybe move on to more serious groups. Now that I've done a handful of events with you all, I don't see a reason to leave. Races are still serious business, but when not on the track there is a great sense of mutual respect and jokes to go around.

👍
 
I wold be willing to reverse my vote to leave the penalties on if we do something about driving through ghosted cars while they are at speed or after your contact has cause them to ghost. The OLR even states that you should avoid ghosted cars as they may return to solid form at any time. I would think that we should avoid ghosted cars as if they were solid.

In D1 I have seen drivers push a car toward another spinning car until they car they were pushing ghosted and then they drove through it. I have seen a driver take two corners to drive through a ghosted car. I have seen drivers have thier own car ghost and drive through two or three cars in turn and gain those positions.

I feel we should have a rule that you are not allowed to drive through other cars to imporve your position. The only exceptions to these rules would be cars that are ghosted due to penalty (which are supposed to pull off the racing line), and cars that are ghosted becasue they are sideways.

Make these types of incidents just like every other incident and I'll vote for the penalties to stay on.

In other words, what rally said toward the end of his post. Make ghost abuse a penalty like any others. It's already in the OLR so let's enforce it.

For better or worse, we've decided to use the GTP OLR Rules as our own. Therefore, there's nothing in there that we shouldn't be enforcing. If there is ever a situation when any of your feel that another driver has violated any of these rules, you should file a complaint immediately. This goes for anything we've discussed in the past (e.g. curb-cutting), anything we're discussing now (ghost cars), and anything else that we've yet to talk about.

Bottom line, if it's in the GTP OLR Rules, it is enforceable here in S.N.A.I.L. and any driver who breaks those rules will be penalized as long as the correct complaint process is followed.
 
What's the deal with the Academy?

Seems awfully easy to get a gold for someone who is the bottom tier in D3... Just sayin'
 
For better or worse, we've decided to use the GTP OLR Rules as our own. Therefore, there's nothing in there that we shouldn't be enforcing. If there is ever a situation when any of your feel that another driver has violated any of these rules, you should file a complaint immediately. This goes for anything we've discussed in the past (e.g. curb-cutting), anything we're discussing now (ghost cars), and anything else that we've yet to talk about.

Bottom line, if it's in the GTP OLR Rules, it is enforceable here in S.N.A.I.L. and any driver who breaks those rules will be penalized as long as the correct complaint process is followed.

Word!!!
 
Wednesday Practice Info

Hey S.N.A.I.L.S.

I'll be hosting the Wednesday Practice in an Open Lobby tonight at 21:00 CDT. I'll open the lobby at 20:45 CDT and post the room number then.

Hope to see you tonight!!!
 
Update on my PS3, it was covered by the extended warranty from Best Buy. They have it, and I should get it back in 3 to 5 days.

I hope I will be back for this Sunday. Maybe even in time to break in the car. We'll see.
 
Update on my PS3, it was covered by the extended warranty from Best Buy. They have it, and I should get it back in 3 to 5 days.

I hope I will be back for this Sunday. Maybe even in time to break in the car. We'll see.

👍

I can break one in for you and send it to you, if it's back in time and you'd like. And it's less than $1,000,000.
 
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