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[ThePDTX]

Here in Portugal it starts at 2:30 am... the only reason I can race with you guys is because i'm unemployed at the moment. When I finally find a job, i'll try and negotiate so I can work on Sunday and have Mondays off, If they say no then I won't be able to keep racing here. :/

 

[motoraza]

Someone needs to start S.N.E.I.L. for the Europeans.

I would love that! But I don't have enough time to organise it, especially when I go back to college. Europe certainly holds some great driving talent.

 

[TEX36]

How do I send some cars to the Prize C gift list? Not sure "who" to send it to.

 

[bandit0627]

How do I send some cars to the Prize C gift list? Not sure "who" to send it to.

I believe you send it to the highest division you have! 1>2>3>4>5

 

[Rallywagon]

Someone needs to start S.N.E.I.L. for the Europeans.

It's actually been discussed a time or two, but I think we end up losing the euros before we can get enough people together to start anything.

 

[motoraza]

It's actually been discussed a time or two, but I think we end up losing the euros before we can get enough people together to start anything.

I'm sure that if the idea is ever put into practice, I would like to join in. So you have another Euro guy now

 

[qwietstorm]

I was placed in D3 when I first arrived. If I remember correctly I only ran 5 or 6 laps but it was only because I was trying to hurry up and submit my time trial so I could race that Sunday night.

Which brings up a good point. If a person asks to join late in the week or on Sunday during the day, they will rush to get their time submitted and all friend requests accepted so they can race on Sunday night. That may be where some of the issues are.

 

[DrKronin]

I support our resident Master Practitioners of the Dark Arts.

I appreciate the flexibility that we have used in the past, and will keep using. Promotion and relegation do even the field, but it is a function over time, not just a new algorithm or Plug-In solution.

I think a point that easily gets lost is that a lot of the proposed solutions involve a lot more work on kcheeb's part. We've got some smart cookies in SNAIL, but one thing you all need to remember is that SNAIL is run by an army of volunteers, and none of us work as hard for the league as kcheeb and Zer0. We need to try to find solutions that don't involve a lot more work on their part, and downloading/watching replays for each new SNAIL (not to mention hand-holding them through the process of exporting and uploading a replay, which most people have never done) is a lot more work than processing a reported lap time.

Perhaps if someone were to step up and volunteer to do the heavy lifting, that might change things, but otherwise, I'm not a fan of making the process much more complex than it is.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

I'll be sending active D3 drivers a quick survey to check interest in starting Sunday races at 9:30pm instead of 10:00.

 

[Rallywagon]

OJoe, Tez is unable to start earlier, which is why we havent moved yet.

 

[zer05ive]

If I may touch on a few of the topics that were discussed last night.. First of all, the concern that "rookies" who get placed in the wrong division (due to a misrepresentative time trial) and then win all the prizes shouldn't be that big of a concern IMO. Remember, everyone is limited to only winning one Prize A and one Prize B per month. So in reality they're capped at winning just two of the available eight Prize A and B's per month.

Now if the concern is that misplaced drivers are somehow demoralizing to the rest of the division, I'd ask you guys to consider that we used to actually force all new members to start in the lowest division (D3 at the time) and then work their way up to D1 if they had the pace/skill. The resulting complaints eventually led to the creation of the time trial process, which was designed to get new drivers into the correct division from the start.

As for the time trial process itself, trust me when I say that a lot of thought went into it. We intentionally chose a car that was "middle of the pack" and FR (our most popular layout). More importantly, we chose a track that was real and did not have a "reverse" layout or any alternate version for that matter (you don't like chickens??). All that being said, you'd be amazed out how many new drivers don't get the time trial process right, even when we provide very details step-by-step instructions.

Given the problems with getting the time trial process completed successfully , or even at all (anyone want to guess how many members who request to join don't even get around to doing the time trial?), I not in favor of making the time trial process more complex. Also, Oshawa-Joe and some other stewards have put together an OLR test that we're going to start asking new members (and possibly some current members) to take. With these things in mind, let's keep the time trial process the same. When GT6 and it's new physics come out, we're probably going to create a new time trial (with the current tire restrictions) and then ask everyone in the league to run it.

 

[Rallywagon]

I don't think making the time trial process more complicated is needed. If people were honest, or did it right, then it would be a non-issue. For me, the issue is when someone joins, does a janky job at the time trail, gets placed in a division they shouldnt be in, and then completely destroys everyone in the division every Sunday night until the season is over. its not a so much a matter of prizes as it is that when someone is constantly taking all three poles and winning 5 out of 6 races, and when they start first they are 5 or more seconds ahead of the pack. That is rediculous, that person has no rights being in a lower division. it only takes one night of racing to tell if someone is in the wrong division. And to be frank, when that observation is made, declared and ignored, that can be demoralizing and frustrating. to say that "Well, maybe that suck at time trials" is assinine in these cases at best. They are running 5 or more seconds ahead of 2nd place! At that point all they are doing is hot lapping. It is a time trial. I'll take it to the other end too. "Well, maybe they suck in traffic." Ok, but then they come throught he entire pack and still win, or at least podium. I'm sorry, that excuse falls flat too. That may be the case often, But this is the second season in a row that this has been the case in D3. The race is for second place, not first, since you cant touch the guy running there. Thats what I like to call "Getting Loebed." Anyone who follows rally racing will know what I mean. Bastard should have gotten into f1...

unfortunately there is only one real fix. Listen to when a director/host/scorekeeper points out a situation like this, check his stats for the night and make a solid judgement call. There is more then enough data that can be pulled, and it will be glairingly obvious when someone needs to be auto promoted.

 

[qwietstorm]

it only takes one night of racing to tell if someone is in the wrong division.

I agreed with your entire post EXCEPT for that line. There are a few things that can contribute to a driver running exceptionally well on one particular night. The lineup could really suit his driving style. There could be fewer racers on the grid that night.

So that driver dominates that one night. But there's a good chance that when the combos change, it may not suit his driving style and he may run mid-pack the next week. It definitely takes more than one night of racing to determine whether or not someone is in the wrong division.

 

[Drgreenthumb977]

I agreed with your entire post EXCEPT for that line. There are a few things that can contribute to a driver running exceptionally well on one particular night. The lineup could really suit his driving style. There could be fewer racers on the grid that night.

So that driver dominates that one night. But there's a good chance that when the combos change, it may not suit his driving style and he may run mid-pack the next week. It definitely takes more than one night of racing to determine whether or not someone is in the wrong division.

Exactly the main point of every drivers in every divisions. Some cars fit with the drivers sometimes not so good point Qwiet 👍

 

[GTP_XR_RACER_11]

I like goats idea about winning two weeks and being moved. If it would happen. However, I've noticed that even when someone is stomping everyone else in a division, they aren't being moved. We have a very clear example of this right now in d3. Well, we did. I'm sure he will be moving up for the new season. But XR not only wins most of the races and gets all of the poles, but when he does win, it's by 5 seconds or more. Not sure why he wasnt promoted lsat season really, except we had someone that did the same thing last season too, so maybe he was over looked. Idk. But unlike cheeb, I feel that sandbagging might happen more often then thought. And it is generally into d3 that they go. If you would like, I can spend some time quantifying this. But really, just look at the data from d3 for the past 6 seasons. It's all there.
Btw, xr, not trying to call you out as a sandbagger. But you are way to fast to be in d3 also.

August was my first season in D3! I trained a lot in recent weeks to get good results. Where did the time trial in July I followed the guidelines of the site ... did just 15 laps and I sent my time. So put me in D4. Could be champion in July and I went to D3 in August.

 

[Rallywagon]

August was my first season in D3! I trained a lot in recent weeks to get good results. Where did the time trial in July I followed the guidelines of the site ... did just 15 laps and I sent my time. So put me in D4. Could be champion in July and I went to D3 in August.

Don't take it as an insult XR. I wouldnt be mad if someone told me I should be in a higher division. Which you should be. You are damn near d1 speeds.
Qwiet, I disagree, how likely is it that they are going to have 3 combos that all suit them? If that is the case, then I would say about 75% of everything we run would suit them.

 

[JLBowler]

As for the time trial process itself, trust me when I say that a lot of thought went into it. We intentionally chose a car that was "middle of the pack" and FR (our most popular layout). More importantly, we chose a track that was real and did not have a "reverse" layout or any alternate version for that matter (you don't like chickens??). All that being said, you'd be amazed out how many new drivers don't get the time trial process right, even when we provide very details step-by-step instructions.

Given the problems with getting the time trial process completed successfully , or even at all (anyone want to guess how many members who request to join don't even get around to doing the time trial?), I not in favor of making the time trial process more complex. Also, Oshawa-Joe and some other stewards have put together an OLR test that we're going to start asking new members (and possibly some current members) to take. With these things in mind, let's keep the time trial process the same. When GT6 and it's new physics come out, we're probably going to create a new time trial (with the current tire restrictions) and then ask everyone in the league to run it.

I find this to be very interesting. Is it a question of drivers sandbagging or is it a problem with reading and following instructions? How many time trials have been run on the wrong tires? How many have been run with ASM on? I know that one could cost me around 2 seconds. What other aids have been left on for time trials?

I will say that with only 3+ months left on GT5 that any change to the procedure now isn't worth the effort. The process that is in place now is very good as long as you have honest drivers and drivers that can follow instructions. The only improvement I would suggest would be to have a monitored time trial of some sort. Hopefully GT6 will allow us to do something in this regard. A user generated time trial would be excellent as long as we were allowed to lock all the settings. If that isn't possible in GT6 then we probably need to switch to a manually monitored time trial (I know, more time and more work) or use the time trial as we do now and require all new drivers to show up for an official practice session so we can see what they can do in a race.

 

[GTP_XR_RACER_11]

Don't take it as an insult XR. I wouldnt be mad if someone told me I should be in a higher division. Which you should be. You are damn near d1 speeds.
Qwiet, I disagree, how likely is it that they are going to have 3 combos that all suit them? If that is the case, then I would say about 75% of everything we run would suit them.

Thank Rally, I hope one day to get to D1!

 

[DJones]

Probation/trial period Idea:

1 - all racers start with 2 week probation. Run clean for two weeks and you are off probation.

2 - get a level 1 or 2 penalty and you add another week to your probation/trial period

3 - Get a level 3 or above penalty your probation/trial period doubles to 4 weeks.

I would also say that a person who is on probation/trial period scores 0 points. Now one advantage I see is that if someone joins the league, races clean but is clearly in the wrong division during probation they can be moved to a more appropriate division without it effecting their championship since they are scoring no points. I also think it might help people start with calmer nerves. They know they can not "Win" so they can focus on getting to know the other racers and racing clean.

As to scoring the races I would say that if they come first they get 0 pts and do not get placed in the standings. The person who comes second would get first. Why do this? Well in my opinion we want people to first and foremost race clean so they do not ruin the night of established SNAILs. This is what we hold to as the core advantage of the league. The second thing we want is for people to have fun. The third is great racing. The third will only come if the 1st is happening. If winning is more important than 1 or 2 then this might not be the league for you.

As to the argument of why stop new people from having a chance to win. Well I imagine in most forms of racing there are licenses that must be gained and leagues where people learn race craft prior to being able to race in the big league. We do not have that. A novice can be thrown in with a bunch of veterans here and some form of trial period may help avoid some of the issues (however few there may actually be) that we sometimes run in to.

Just my ¢2

I quite like this idea.

I apologize if this was addressed already and I missed it. I think I read everything, but the iOS app is a little sketchy at times.

 

[qwietstorm]

Qwiet, I disagree, how likely is it that they are going to have 3 combos that all suit them? If that is the case, then I would say about 75% of everything we run would suit them.

There are weeks where I can run top 4 or 5 with the guys in D1 when the car and/or track suit my driving style. Then there are weeks where I can barely get out of my own way and I'm running 6th or worse.

I have had quite a few Sundays where all 3 combos suit me, and on the opposite side of the coin I've had quite a few Sundays where none of the combos suit me. It's very possible and happens to everyone who isn't a natural born Snalien.

 

[Rallywagon]

I quite like this idea.

I apologize if this was addressed already and I missed it. I think I read everything, but the iOS app is a little sketchy at times.

I'll play devils advocate here. I don't think starting on a "probationary" is a good idea. But that is because I think probation is abritrary at best. I mean, what does it really mean to be on probation? That your next penalty will add more time to your probation staus? Were is the pain in that? sure, eventually it could lead to being suspended/kicked from the league, but we don't need probation to know who needs that. I never understood the point of probation here. Now, lets say that while you are on probation, you cant win a prize , or for every week you have left on probation, you lose that percentage of points at the end of the night. Something that hurts and makes people think. Being added to a list though, what is that? Now, take the percentage thing into consideration, that would work well in A, curbing more incidents (which there are probably racers that have been on probation since we started that list), but it would also keep new guys from prize contention for at least the first week, possibly the 2nd. Now do I think this is bad. Maybe, but, it also allows 2 weeks for a new racer to acclimatize to the league without feeling the pressure of being in the running for points.

 

[the2armedmen]

I think more than just having three combos that suit, we all have ups and downs. I know some of you guys are pretty consistent, but if your like me you are very inconsistent. I will run mid pack or crash in every other turn one week, then the next week get triple crown and get close to 90 points. My solution would be if someone is clearly better (scores 85+ points) in their first two weeks to not wait till the end of the month for promotion, just boost them up based on their lap times in comparison to the leagues during the actual races

 

[Rallywagon]

There are weeks where I can run top 4 or 5 with the guys in D1 when the car and/or track suit my driving style. Then there are weeks where I can barely get out of my own way and I'm running 6th or worse.

I have had quite a few Sundays where all 3 combos suit me, and on the opposite side of the coin I've had quite a few Sundays where none of the combos suit me.

And people have off nights and nights they are on fire. when you consider that we run almost exclusively a FR platform, the only real variable in the mix is HP and tires. I just don't buy the fact that combos play that big of a difference in this situation. Definitly not 3 combos in a row. People have good nights, and bad ones, but when have we ever run three identical combos? The closest is when we had three race cars. Otherwise, we generally have a mix of tires, hp, tracks and occasionally drivetrains that are different from the next. Maybe one of us is the exeption here, but I can't recall a night were I felt that all three combos were so similar.

It's very possible and happens to everyone who isn't a natural born Snalien.

Says a Snalien!

I think more than just having three combos that suit, we all have ups and downs. I know some of you guys are pretty consistent, but if your like me you are very inconsistent. I will run mid pack or crash in every other turn one week, then the next week get triple crown and get close to 90 points. My solution would be if someone is clearly better (scores 85+ points) in their first two weeks to not wait till the end of the month for promotion, just boost them up based on their lap times in comparison to the leagues during the actual races

There we go! this is what I'm on about. I think this can be found in one night, but regardless, the point is the same. if someone won by a land slide one night, chances are it wasnt a fluke, especially if it's their first night racing in the league.

 

[qwietstorm]

The thing is you don't need it to be all 3 combos. It can be 2 and as long as you keep it out of the wall, off the beach and away from the fairway (grass) on the 3rd combo you can still pull off a decent nights win.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

How about a new racer must have his TT qualifying run observed by a steward or anyone on TEAM SNAIL. TEAM SNAIL double checks the car/tires and observes 5 timed laps, 1 out, 3 hot, 1 in. Of course we would ask that the driver have practiced before calling for a qualifying run.

I think we have 25+ guys on TEAM SNAIL so should never be an issue finding one online and ready to go.

 

[soundtiger95]

So does no one think the rookie division idea I posted a couple pages ago would be a good idea? It may take some time and work but it could rid us of the problems that people have brought up.

 

[Chiochan]

The problem with that soundtiger is that it will not ensure close racing, which is one of the goals of SNAIL.

 

[zegrated]

My solution would be if someone is clearly better (scores 85+ points) in their first two weeks to not wait till the end of the month for promotion, just boost them up based on their lap times in comparison to the leagues during the actual races

I agree with this. If a new driver wins their division handily in the first two weeks, then they should be immediately promoted (even if mid-month). This could work the other way too, if a new driver is coming near last for two weeks, then immediately relegate.

Two weeks is 12 races, which is PLENTY of time to see if the person really belongs in the division or not.

 

[zegrated]

So does no one think the rookie division idea I posted a couple pages ago would be a good idea? It may take some time and work but it could rid us of the problems that people have brought up.

The problem with that soundtiger is that it will not ensure close racing, which is one of the goals of SNAIL.

Yep, and there are a couple of other problems.

1) A division with all new guys, who may have questionable racecraft, could be troublesome. I know that it helped for me to be put immediately into a division with a bunch of veterans of the league so that I learned what was acceptable and what wasn't very early on.

2) There simply aren't enough rookies to fill a division. There's like 1 or 2 people that join per week.

3) As you said, there is a huge difference in speeds between people that join. Would be too unbalanced and not very fun for someone at D5 speed to race with someone with potential D1 speed.

 

[DriftinAssassin]

In currently uploading some GT5 gameplay (some of the touge racing we did a while back) and it should be up in the next hour or so. Here is the catch guys. I'll be uploading a second GT5 video. If you guys want to do something this Sunday night you might want to keep an eye out for the second one.

EDIT: Second video uploading now. Expect by 8 EST.