1.09 update physics changes....

[esoxhntr]

A larger number for camber doesn't necessarily mean that the camber using Racing Softs will be more noticeable.

It's not the large number alone, it's the bigger range of values you have to work with before you add "too much negative camber" that will make it easier to see the effects.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

It's not the large number alone, it's the bigger range of values you have to work with before you add "too much negative camber" that will make it easier to see the effects.

I understand what you are saying, but, I recently tuned a car at 525pp on sport soft. Switched to Sport Hard and finished tuning. Back to SS tires and the car was better now after tuning on SH tires because I could find that fine tuning the grippier SS tires were not showing.

 

[DolHaus]

All of you missed my point entirely.

If we look at the two posts below:





It stands to reason that the softest tire compound *WILL* shed light on this topic and put it to rest with definitive answers.

I'm not telling you to tune or race on RS nor am I opening up any RS tire can o worms, I am trying to help you all find the answer to this camber topic.

I would expect to see better potential gains on Racing tyres when using camber.
I wouldn't expect to see much of an increase in cornering grip because there aren't many corners where you will be reaching their high lateral grip level. I would hope to see an increase in corner exit grip when applying the throttle on big power cars due to the increased straight line grip potential when using high degrees of camber.

Whether this is possible in game remains unclear but it could be another area to test perhaps? Maybe take a grippy racing car to a track where necessary cornering grip is less intense (Madrid perhaps?) and see if you can use a high degree of camber (5 deg +) to get better straight line traction coming out of slow corners where you would usually have to nurse the throttle.
I believe this is a trick they use on FF touring cars on fast circuits, the sticky tyre can give adequate cornering grip while over cambered and the effect of leaning on the inside edge gives them more straight line traction aiding corner exit.
As I say, needs to be tested

 

[praiano63]

Not quite sure if you are following along or not. I posted right after the update that the data logger showed definite changes the car's performance (I used the Yellow Bird at Ascari). Grip was gained MOST on high speed corners where the load was the highest. Corner speed was higher in all cases, except the slowest corners. Grip was lost on corner entry and corner exit (braking and acceleration), which I am sure is a contributor to the lower corner speed on slow corners.

As far as your spin is concerned, I suspect that you are running your camber too high. You recommended 3.0 or lower, but I have not seen a benefit or gain above 1.5.

As, as I found in my testing, camber angle can be increased/decreased very slightly as toe angle increases/decreases. (I found about 0.1 camber/0.1 toe change from the default).

Are you using the data logger to compare your laps times? IF you are, you should see the difference pretty easily.

It´s your opinion, not mine at all. Sorry , i don´t see any test results from you in this thread. I don´t recomand 3.0 or lower camber, read again my post, i just say there is no gain of grip from 0.0 to 3.0. Above , at least for me , there is a lost of grip.
All the lap time results from any tester is not significant enough to prove that camber in this game increase dynamic grip.

This is only my opinion.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

It´s your opinion, not mine at all. Sorry , i don´t see any test results from you in this thread. I don´t recomand 3.0 or lower camber, read again my post, i just say there is no gain of grip from 0.0 to 3.0. Above , at least for me , there is a lost of grip.
All the lap time results from any tester is not significant enough to prove that camber in this game increase dynamic grip.

This is only my opinion.

I do have much respect for you and hear what you are saying. However, I do believe that there is some gain but it is as you say hard to give concrete proof. That is just my opinion.

 

[killerjimbag]

Here is my thoughts. I don't see any conclusive gains with camber also. If someone was gaining seconds per lap then there is a difference. I haven't seen any tests nor results that show this. I test my cars at Nurb, in my own lobby, online, tire wear on fast, real grip,abs 1. I use SS tires for street cars and RH, RM, and RS for race cars.
I have not seen any conclusive gains on this track with camber adjustments. Tires yes camber no.

 

[rams1de]

I would expect to see better potential gains on Racing tyres when using camber.
I wouldn't expect to see much of an increase in cornering grip because there aren't many corners where you will be reaching their high lateral grip level. I would hope to see an increase in corner exit grip when applying the throttle on big power cars due to the increased straight line grip potential when using high degrees of camber.

Whether this is possible in game remains unclear but it could be another area to test perhaps? Maybe take a grippy racing car to a track where necessary cornering grip is less intense (Madrid perhaps?) and see if you can use a high degree of camber (5 deg +) to get better straight line traction coming out of slow corners where you would usually have to nurse the throttle.
I believe this is a trick they use on FF touring cars on fast circuits, the sticky tyre can give adequate cornering grip while over cambered and the effect of leaning on the inside edge gives them more straight line traction aiding corner exit.
As I say, needs to be tested

Couldn't you test straight line traction at a Route X? I would have thought better straight line grip should result in better acceleration and better top speed (at some point).

 

[332i]

There is no doubt that camber is rewarding quality technique and driving. I'm seeing it every night with a lot of people I race with. And I can carry so much more speed into and through turns with a bit of camber. Like sewing through butter, compared to 1.08.

This is how I think people should be testing - use the data logger and quit seeing how much quicker or slower you are per lap. Don't deduce anything of any turn that will be affected by a poor line through the previous one, which is why I say lap times are not the way to compare. Pick a few turns for each lap, so you're positive you're setting up for them in the same exact manner for every single lap. Chances are, you're changing camber levels and taking the same line around the track and/or not taking enough time to learn the best line for said settings, which takes a while, whether you feel you've got it down or not.

Use the data logger with the combined corners/sectors. That is what I am messing with right now and it seems more efficient/wastes less time. I caught myself making setting changes, thinking I had gone in the wrong direction. I was just taking inefficient lines, often taking the line I previously felt to be quickest.

Obviously, this can be taken with a grain of salt, but it is consistent and accurate in comparison to comparing lap times and subjective feelings for ME right now. Not condemning anyone. But, that and some people are doing comparisons on ds3s, with wheels on different locks, different FFB levels, centering springs, dead zones, clipping and anything else that can dull your experience.

Just food for thought and worth a shot, I suppose. The data logger is very useful right now.

 

[332i]

Here is my thoughts. I don't see any conclusive gains with camber also. If someone was gaining seconds per lap then there is a difference. I haven't seen any tests nor results that show this. I test my cars at Nurb, in my own lobby, online, tire wear on fast, real grip,abs 1. I use SS tires for street cars and RH, RM, and RS for race cars.
I have not seen any conclusive gains on this track with camber adjustments. Tires yes camber no.

The ring isn't the greatest place to be testing for lap time differentiation. It favors soft setups and it's too long. Unless you are Niki lauda, you're not consistent enough to be testing there. Not trying to insult you, as I wouldn't test there myself either. It can produce a great a tune, but they're usually end up on the soft side, then you take it to a place like apricot hill and it'll eat tires up like they're going out of style.

One tiny mistake and the lap is trash, unless you make the same mistake, at the same spot, at same road speed, every single lap.

Edit - sorry form the double post, thought someone posted in between.

 

[Lionheart2113]

Oh, if PD were to bring back B-Spec and that Bob guy...he was like a machine!

 

[praiano63]

The ring isn't the greatest place to be testing for lap time differentiation. It favors soft setups and it's too long. Unless you are Niki lauda, you're not consistent enough to be testing there. Not trying to insult you, as I wouldn't test there myself. One tiny mistake and the lap is trash, unless you make the same mistake, at the same spot, at same road speed, every single lap.

It´s perfectly possible to test on the Nordschleife. I´m not Niki Lauda or any alien GT driver , but myself and a lot of people i know are able to drive on this track within 1 second lap after lap at racing cruising speed.
I have a lot of ghost on this track and also suzuka, where i drive within 0.100 lap after lap.
Trust me, there is no better way than a ghost on a very well know track to compare any kind of settings. This is how i tune all my cars, with a clear answer given by the ghost to all my questions about what is more performant.

 

[DolHaus]

Couldn't you test straight line traction at a Route X? I would have thought better straight line grip should result in better acceleration and better top speed (at some point).

Possibly, although I couldn't be sure if it would be operating under the correct circumstances.
I would find a low speed corner using a car which overpowers the wheels slightly (not massively as you'd expect with 800bhp monsters) on exit and then try it again with various degrees of camber to see if anything changed. The difference with camber will always be slight, its not adding grip after all, just making the tyre handle load in a particular axis (linear/lateral) better.

It´s perfectly possible to test on the Nordschleife. I´m not Niki Lauda or any alien GT driver , but myself and a lot of people i know are able to drive on this track within 1 second lap after lap at racing cruising speed.
I have a lot of ghost on this track and also suzuka, where i drive within 0.100 lap after lap.
Trust me, there is no better way than a ghost on a very well know track to compare any kind of settings. This is how i tune all my cars, with a clear answer given by the ghost to all my questions about what is more performant.

Was your ghost set before or after the update?

 

[praiano63]

Was your ghost set before or after the update?

Before update for most of my ghost, no change at all like i´ve said already. At least on suzuka, i didn´t tune on the nordschleife with ghost since 1.09 .
Some people talk about top speed change. I din´t saw this till now. Have to check on the ring straight with an older ghost to confirm or not.

 

[esoxhntr]

the 1st two or three sectors (or time splits if you prefer) on Nordschleiffe are perfect for testing -- they contain quite the variety of turns from slow to fast.

like Praiano, I am very consistent on the ring as a whole and especially in the 1st two or three time splits.

I do agree that setups are 'softer' on this track but it's all I race so it's of no consequence to me at least.

 

[Lionheart2113]

@praiano63 I think that is the best piece of advice...."Race cruising speed". It is easier to get consistency of feel and lap times when you are running at a good steady pace. Is it the fastest that you can run, clipping the curbs at every apex, riding on the razors edge??? In my case no, but it's about getting into a rhythm. I can say that even on the ring running this way I can't get as close as Mr. P but I can atleast get within .500 of my time every lap if the car is tuned to my liking. I'm not going to set track records with my time, but it's decent enough.

 

[DolHaus]

Before update for most of my ghost, no change at all like i´ve said already. At least on suzuka, i didn´t tune on the nordschleife with ghost since 1.09 .
Some people talk about top speed change. I din´t saw this till now. Have to check on the ring straight with an older ghost to confirm or not.

I had my BTCC car set up for Indy Road Course pre-update at 0.0, was running consistent laps earlier in the day before updating and once the update had been completed I lost over a second on a 1:42 lap. No matter what I did or how hard I pushed the car was always down on time and my ghost was leaving me behind.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Here is my thoughts. I don't see any conclusive gains with camber also. If someone was gaining seconds per lap then there is a difference.

Not quite, and I don't mean to contradict. "Seconds per lap" is going to be hard to obtain from a good setup because of the law of diminishing returns. However, there can be gains on the order of tenths per lap (depending on the track). I have definitely seen this happen consistently. Yes, correlation does not imply causation, but there is a pretty compelling correlation there.

Also, what people keep forgetting is that this change does not occur in a vacuum. Camber adds grip, but reduces acceleration and braking, so in some cases, you have a 0 sum gain in lap time. Add in the toe factor and it's even more of a balancing act. You get more camber grip with more toe angle, but the added toe robs you of top speed. So, if you've managed to achieve max grip (which the data logger can show you) you will also lose acceleration, braking, and top speed. That can even lead to REDUCED lap times on some tracks.

The true gain is in track position. The added grip and stability helps to keep the car in line, which can allow for more aggressive driving. I've found a good camber and toe setup helps to reduce loss of control situations.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

First time I saw this quad error I can agree with Voodoovaj, 332i and dolhaus

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

I am seeing gains but also losses depending on the track. It is more of an aide like toe or damper settings, it will not make you faster just throwing camber at it. Built into the tune and used properly will improve a tune, just thrown at it at random won't work much in the same way simply setting toe to 0.00/0.00 or all dampers to 6 will not make you faster. You will not see huge gains.

 

[332i]

It´s perfectly possible to test on the Nordschleife. I´m not Niki Lauda or any alien GT driver , but myself and a lot of people i know are able to drive on this track within 1 second lap after lap at racing cruising speed.
I have a lot of ghost on this track and also suzuka, where i drive within 0.100 lap after lap.
Trust me, there is no better way than a ghost on a very well know track to compare any kind of settings. This is how i tune all my cars, with a clear answer given by the ghost to all my questions about what is more performant.

As can I, but you're still not hitting braking zones, entering and exiting identically, every single lap. The track surfaces vary too much as well. It's good for a decent base tune.

If it's within a second, what good is that? Any errors throw it. A second differentiation is no good. That leaves you with a 2 second, variable window. One second in either direction of the time you'd normally rack up.

You shouldn't be looking at your ghost either. You'll be consistent in comparison by looking directly at where you want to go; ie the oncoming inner kerb as you prepare to turn in and the outer strips as you exit mid turn, etc. Not what is right in front of you, like a ghost driving line. This is exactly what I am pointing to. Why are you following an old ghost with a new setup, when camber drastically changes how you turn in and exit? I note my best time and go out doing laps on the same setup, until I find the best line for said setup and the best time is what it is. It always differs over the setup beforehand with more or less camber to either a) put down the same time or b) bang out a quicker one. We both know that the same line is not go to be advantageous for two different setups, using differing levels of camber.

 

[praiano63]

I´ll end my participation to this thread saying that i will not use camber at all on most of my cars .

I´ll use camber as an extra extension damper setting only.

When ext dampers will be not enough to have the result i want on an extreme car , could be understeery FF or very oversteery MR, then yes , i´ll use camber to sum with the damper extension and like this have the expected result on this special car.

Have a good day everybody.

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°°°

 

[rams1de]

@Voodoovaj I agree with your summation that camber can provide stability, ie the sensation of better balance, with the potential to lead to better lap times.

How can you or I determine that increased camber leads to loss of acceleration? The only way I could think was to use the grid start at Goodwood and take the time to the first split which is a short straight and at Route X, where it's a little more difficult to get an accurate comparison.

When I did some straight line tests on those two tracks in Arcade mode there was no discernible difference in acceleration or top speed. The car was S2000 on comforts softs.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

I´ll end my participation to this thread saying that i will not use camber at all on most of my cars .

I´ll use camber as an extra extension damper setting only.

When ext dampers will be not enough to have the result i want on an extreme car , could be understeery FF or very oversteery MR, then yes , i´ll use camber to sum with the damper extension and like this have the expected result on this special car.

Have a good day everybody.

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°°°

Sorry to hear you are exiting this discussion, but I can appreciate and respect your decision.

 

[killerjimbag]

It´s perfectly possible to test on the Nordschleife. I´m not Niki Lauda or any alien GT driver , but myself and a lot of people i know are able to drive on this track within 1 second lap after lap at racing cruising speed.
I have a lot of ghost on this track and also suzuka, where i drive within 0.100 lap after lap.
Trust me, there is no better way than a ghost on a very well know track to compare any kind of settings. This is how i tune all my cars, with a clear answer given by the ghost to all my questions about what is more performant.

Thank you P. I'm no Nikki either its the only track I test on. Over and over and over.

 

[332i]

@Voodoovaj I agree with your summation that camber can provide stability, ie the sensation of better balance, with the potential to lead to better lap times.

How can you or I determine that increased camber leads to loss of acceleration? The only way I could think was to use the grid start at Goodwood and take the time to the first split which is a short straight and at Route X, where it's a little more difficult to get an accurate comparison.

When I did some straight line tests on those two tracks in Arcade mode there was no discernible difference in acceleration or top speed. The car was S2000 on comforts softs.

The first time I noticed a loss of straight line grip with rear camber was exiting turn two at the A1 ring. Or rbr whatever. Started to feel it on exit as I laid back into the throttle at -0.2. That's where in test camber, because 8 and 9 or off camber, 1 is banked, 2 goes up and off camber mid turn, 3 drops you downwards, 4 is off camber and somewhat high speed, then you need to be able to boot it through the S.

 

[332i]

I´ll end my participation to this thread saying that i will not use camber at all on most of my cars .

I´ll use camber as an extra extension damper setting only.

When ext dampers will be not enough to have the result i want on an extreme car , could be understeery FF or very oversteery MR, then yes , i´ll use camber to sum with the damper extension and like this have the expected result on this special car.

Have a good day everybody.

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°°°

Well, that is a shame because the more opinions and heads put together on this one, the better. I wish we could have a normal discussion without you getting offended every single time, because you are clearly inteligent and have a very good understanding of physics and picking apart the GT physics engine IMO.

Don't be like this. Let's be nice and collaborate. If I offended you, it was not intentional and I apogize.

 

[DolHaus]

I´ll end my participation to this thread saying that i will not use camber at all on most of my cars .

I´ll use camber as an extra extension damper setting only.

When ext dampers will be not enough to have the result i want on an extreme car , could be understeery FF or very oversteery MR, then yes , i´ll use camber to sum with the damper extension and like this have the expected result on this special car.

Have a good day everybody.

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°°°

Fair enough mate, I'm sure you'll wipe the floor with us in the next FITT comp anyway

All the best

 

[rams1de]

The first time I noticed a loss of straight line grip with rear camber was exiting turn two at the A1 ring. Or rbr whatever. Started to feel it on exit as I laid back into the throttle at -0.2. That's where in test camber, because 8 and 9 or off camber, 1 is banked, 2 goes up and off camber mid turn, 3 drops you downwards, 4 is off camber and somewhat high speed, then you need to be able to boot it through the S.

Wheelspin?

 

[praiano63]

Well, that is a shame because the more opinions and heads put together on this one, the better. I wish we could have a normal discussion without you getting offended every single time, because you are clearly inteligent and have a very good understanding of physics and picking apart the GT physics engine IMO.

Don't be like this. Let's be nice and collaborate. If I offended you, it was not intentional and I apogize.

What????? Who is ofended ?? I´m not ofended at all. I just say this is my final opinion. I can be right or wrong, this will be my participation to the thread.
I just can´t argue anymore because all the test i´ve done let me think what i´m saying to you. I can´t see anything more to do.
I would love to see the camber work at least as in GT5 . It was not so good but at least it was adding performance and dynamic grip, giving a credible simulation feeling.
I´m not ofended i repeat. Perhaps my poor vocabulary and semantic in english let you know this.... but i´m not. Have a good day.

 

[Lionheart2113]

@Voodoovaj I agree with your summation that camber can provide stability, ie the sensation of better balance, with the potential to lead to better lap times.

How can you or I determine that increased camber leads to loss of acceleration? The only way I could think was to use the grid start at Goodwood and take the time to the first split which is a short straight and at Route X, where it's a little more difficult to get an accurate comparison.

When I did some straight line tests on those two tracks in Arcade mode there was no discernible difference in acceleration or top speed. The car was S2000 on comforts softs.

I would be careful about trusting the times at these markers...the can vary even when you are able to control every aspect of the time trial, they are inconsistent at best.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...st-stage-1-results.302113/page-4#post-9790849

 

[332i]

Wheelspin?

Yes, sir