1.09 update physics changes....

[332i]

I think we all need agree on one car, one setup, rwd, and all test nothing but camber. I propose e60 m5 on stage 3 weight reduction. It is balanced and handles great in stock and modified forms. 50/50 weight out of the box. One of the best modelled cars in gt6 IMO.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Using different cars and approaches seems to be working so far and similar results are being found. @Lionheart2113 , @DolHaus @Motor City Hami and myself all agree it's doing something and I totally agree with Lionheart on rear camber findings. It is possible the mid-corner grip gain I felt was due to better entry speed, I have several laps saved and will review with the datalogger later. Rear camber gain I found was really at stabilizing the rear end on slow corner exit where you normally reguire throttle control. Back end would not slide sideways and lose grip, this could also be due to poor corner speed Lionheart and myself agree is found. slower corner speed equals slower exit. Will research my laptime saves ans report back.
Testing different cars and tires having similar results saves us from everyone testing car A, then car B, then......and so on. I would love to hear your findings with the BMW, anther example to toss into the mix:tup:

 

[DolHaus]

Everyone seems to be going for a RWD at this point so I might try an FF when I get the chance and see what happens there.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

This thread is finally getting some concrete info filed together, rather than subjective opinion.

You guys should probably drop it and quit responding every time someone quotes your posts from this thread. get used to it, because the thread is going to be kicking for quite a while. Scoff and dismiss or unsubscribe from the thread. Don't feel like saving face is necessary on the internet.

I understand arguing physics (I am guilty of that ITT), but this crap has no place here.

Practice what you preach. Like I said, its already been dealt with, no need for you to play hall monitor, its done.

I have done more testing and as far as lap times go, it seems the stickier the tire, the less I am gaining on my lap times. Camber seems to be more pronounced the lesser the grade of tire. That's what I've noticed so far with my testing. Others may be finding different results, so I'm not claiming this to be fact. I still have to test more cars to see if that trend continues.

 

[332i]

Ok. Well, anyways, I've done most of my testing on racing tires. That being said, when 1.09 was released, I was mainly running race cars. I found that my lap times began to drop off using more than -1* of camber on either end. On the other hand, I've been working on an evo iv. The first day, I tuned it on sports softs and more or less cleaned house that night in most rooms and races I entered. A lot of the rooms ended up on racing softs at some point or were solely as such. I was running -0.8f and -0.6r on sports. Dropped to .4/.3 on racing and it felt great. When I originally switched to racing softs from sports softs, the car felt slippery with the amount of negative camber I used on the sports tire setup.

I am going to work on a setup with the evo that uses more camber on sports and see how the lap times go. First I'd like to finish the original camber evo setup, because it is a tad tail happy on entries, but I don't mind work both pedals at the same time. It shouldn't require that, though.

 

[Lionheart2113]

I think this is good stuff and exactly what we need. More and more people testing different cars and supplying their feedback. Feels like we are taking more steps forward than back now! Great job everyone

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

As mentioned above, I looked at save data in the logger and guess what, the higher the rear camber the slower mid-corner speed and exit. Entry was not better either, slowest with default 0.5/1.5. At 0.0/0.0 and what felt the best to me of 1.0/05, entry was better with camber, mid better with 0.0, exit almost a wash with camber only slightly better. This could be my driving style (and ability). Unfortunately I did not save all the best laps( ) but enough to see a trend of too much rear causing understeer mid corner leading to slower exit speeds. Front camber slightly better entry carrying more through the center but must be later on throttle? The lap that felt the worst to me, 1.0/1.0, only entry close to other laps as mid and exit were slower than 0.0 or 1.0/0.5. Hami will do a better test than me but I hope this is helpful.

The only gain I can see going higher than maybe 0.8 on sport tires would be to tame rear wheel spin and snap oversteer on exit but the laptime would definitely suffer every where else. And even that might be too high.

 

[Motor City Hami]

I only test on Racing Soft tires and I only drive Flat Out.

 

[killerjimbag]

I only test on Racing Soft tires and I only drive Flat Out.

Good one Hammi,🤬 laughing my arse off.

 

[esoxhntr]

you guys can laugh all you want but

i) racing soft tires best illustrate the camber changes in 1.09 due to forces stressing the suspension, tires much more than harder compounds
and
ii) sadly, most rooms in the online world are on rs tires. i don't know about you but tuning and racing for offline content on harder compounds is a big yawner for me nor do i have the time or inclination to have multiple tunes for each car.

that's all i will share on this topic.

 

[killerjimbag]

you guys can laugh all you want but

i) racing soft tires best illustrate the camber changes in 1.09 due to forces stressing the suspension, tires much more than harder compounds
and
ii) sadly, most rooms in the online world are on rs tires. i don't know about you but tuning and racing for offline content on harder compounds is a big yawner for me nor do i have the time or inclination to have multiple tunes for each car.

that's all i will share on this topic.

Yes on a race car, they do. On a street car,not so much.If the car is tuned properly,you can stress it on CS tires,I don't understand the rational behind RS tires on a 425 PP Honda.

 

[Lionheart2113]

I only test on Racing Soft tires and I only drive Flat Out.

That's good stuff, Hami! Sounds about right too! Conga line....

 

[Motor City Hami]

Racing soft tires can mask problems with a tune. For example, a wider range of LSD settings can work with racing soft tires. Why? Not because the racing tire needed different settings, but only because the racing tire can work with a wider range of settings. If you can truly get the racing soft tire up to it's limits, it will usually like settings that work very well on harder tires. It is difficult to get 400PP, 500PP, 550pp cars over the limits of the racing soft tire.

I have not seen very many sport hard tunes not also work very well with racing hard tires. But, on the other hand, I have seen plenty of racing tire tunes that fall apart on sport or comfort tires. My opinion is that the reason the tune fell apart on harder tires was that it had flaws in it to begin with that were being masked by the softer compound tire.

 

[brian wolf]

Racing soft tires can mask problems with a tune. For example, a wider range of LSD settings can work with racing soft tires. Why? Not because the racing tire needed different settings, but only because the racing tire can work with a wider range of settings. If you can truly get the racing soft tire up to it's limits, it will usually like settings that work very well on harder tires. It is difficult to get 400PP, 500PP, 550pp cars over the limits of the racing soft tire.

I have not seen very many sport hard tunes not also work very well with racing hard tires. But, on the other hand, I have seen plenty of racing tire tunes that fall apart on sport or comfort tires. My opinion is that the reason the tune fell apart on harder tires was that it had flaws in it to begin with that were being masked by the softer compound tire.

You`re spot on there!👍 And the screech is really annoying!

 

[TheBull]

Here is the link to my first stage of 1.09 camber testing.
Camber Results

To save everyone the boring read here are my thoughts.

Conclusion:
Front Camber - Increasing the value will help the car turn on corner entry. Too much and the car will begin to slide more through the turn changing your line and cause a tight condition on exit.

Rear Camber - Tightens the car through most stages of the turn. Feels great on corner entry, but over adjust and you will have to slow down too much in the corner to counteract the understeer.

I'm looking forward to seeing more results from other tuners/testers. We can use all of the information we can get!

Edit:
I forgot to mention that any front camber, keeping the rear @ 0.0 did make the car faster in all tests.

Nice work ,I know you used Comfort soft Tyres for your test but would it make any significant changes to the camber if you changed tyre compound?

 

[332i]

Racing soft tires can mask problems with a tune. For example, a wider range of LSD settings can work with racing soft tires. Why? Not because the racing tire needed different settings, but only because the racing tire can work with a wider range of settings. If you can truly get the racing soft tire up to it's limits, it will usually like settings that work very well on harder tires. It is difficult to get 400PP, 500PP, 550pp cars over the limits of the racing soft tire.

I have not seen very many sport hard tunes not also work very well with racing hard tires. But, on the other hand, I have seen plenty of racing tire tunes that fall apart on sport or comfort tires. My opinion is that the reason the tune fell apart on harder tires was that it had flaws in it to begin with that were being masked by the softer compound tire.

For sure. This is why I start tunes on sports soft.

 

[Lionheart2113]

Nice work ,I know you used Comfort soft Tyres for your test but would it make any significant changes to the camber if you changed tyre compound?

If you look at some of the work done by @DolHaus in his tuning guide, he found that there can be camber differences with quality of tires. The better the tires, the more you can increase the camber, in small increments. And I'm pretty confident that I will find the same going forward. I strongly believe that there will be camber sweet spots based on tires, like GT5.

 

[MrGrado]

It makes perfect sense. On a very similar issue, I used lower camber settings on a tune for a night race. Same track that the tune was made for, just at night.

For anyone interested, I lowered ride height, lowered spring rate, lowered bound, lowered ARB and lowered camber for the night race. I'm assuming the same type of thing can be applied to a wet race.

 

[rams1de]

It makes perfect sense. On a very similar issue, I used lower camber settings on a tune for a night race. Same track that the tune was made for, just at night.

For anyone interested, I lowered ride height, lowered spring rate, lowered bound, lowered ARB and lowered camber for the night race. I'm assuming the same type of thing can be applied to a wet race.

Have you noticed any changes in camber since the update? Iirc you didn't think there was anything wrong with it in the first instance, it would be interesting to know your take on PD's camber fix.

 

[Lionheart2113]

you guys can laugh all you want but

i) racing soft tires best illustrate the camber changes in 1.09 due to forces stressing the suspension, tires much more than harder compounds
and
ii) sadly, most rooms in the online world are on rs tires. i don't know about you but tuning and racing for offline content on harder compounds is a big yawner for me nor do i have the time or inclination to have multiple tunes for each car.

that's all i will share on this topic.

I agree with you that online racing rooms seem to be dominated by RS tires. But I think there are 2 reasons for that.
1) There is a lack of interest in online racing because it isn't half as good as GT5 (yet???? One can only dream). With the loss of shuffle races and other features that people loved about GT5 what is really the point?! I think most are waiting for these special features to be included and/or worked on. So you will end up getting those (majority newbies) who just want to race and go as fast as they can and muck about. Hence the RS tires.
2) And this is the major one...lack of tunes! GT6 is a little more than 6 months old. And with PD needing to fix this or that, it has kinda scared some into not really posting tunes. Don't get me wrong, some of my favourites are still cranking out tunes at a great pace, but I know it's in the back of their minds that their setups might be junk or need re-worked based on these changes. Anyone remember the 2.10 update for GT5??? What a joke!! My garage has been up for months now and I have yet to post a single tune because of this fear. Just when I was going to post my Miata from the FITT challenge, the physics changed. So once things get worked out and tuners are comfortable in knowing what they need to know, you will start to see more and more tunes ranging throughout all the tires. Online users will get more comfortable with these assorted tunes and you will see the rooms change from RS to probably Sport Tires, I'm guessing. Until then...Racing Soft with SRF on in most. And if you want to be competitive in that, check out @Thorin Cain garage specialising in SRF tunes and put better tires on them if need be. Some great tunes for that!

But I would disagree with you on not needing or wanting multiple tunes for the same car...there are so many variables it's near impossible to just have 1 car with 1 tune for every track, there are things that need to be changed if you want to see the field from your rear view mirror. That's the fun of racing right???

 

[MrGrado]

There has been more than just camber changes. I haven't driven that many tunes in 1.09 yet and I personally couldn't say what has changed to camber specifically. Maybe now fewer cars or no cars will be optimum at 0/0 camber. Maybe the few tunes made before 1.09 that genuinely worked with a small amount of camber at both ends of the car will be improved with a small increase in camber.

1.09 physics just seem overall better, like how music sounds better played through a better sound system. I wouldn't be surprised if the algorithms that are in the game code got more complex with more elements/variables etc, or at the very least were heavily tweaked to produce, what is more than likely, a more realistic driving experience.

I have not really tested camber since 1.09 extensively. I just dial in my camber now the same as I have always done.

I start with camber equal front and back and I test it, tweak it, test it, tweak it...
I keep the front camber equal to rear camber until right near the end of the tuning process.
I tune camber to maximise contact patch area in turns, I use toe and other settings to adjust nimbleness and stability if I need to.
I tune a race car with downforce on min initially and maximise the cars performance for low speed bends, then tune the cars downforce for high speed bends.
I avoid tuning camber on oval tracks with embanked turns, it's something I learned in a much earlier GT game, it's just not that great for any type of tuning actually, with of course, the exception of a specific tune for the specific track.

Camber in GT6 is much harder to get exactly right. There is a very small difference in performance per 0.1 change in value, especially around about where camber is optimum. There is every chance that camber is now dynamic, changing as suspension extends and compresses. This just adds that bit more complexity to camber tuning.

 

[Thorin Cain]

I agree with you that online racing rooms seem to be dominated by RS tires. But I think there are 2 reasons for that.
1) There is a lack of interest in online racing because it isn't half as good as GT5 (yet???? One can only dream). With the loss of shuffle races and other features that people loved about GT5 what is really the point?! I think most are waiting for these special features to be included and/or worked on. So you will end up getting those (majority newbies) who just want to race and go as fast as they can and muck about. Hence the RS tires.
2) And this is the major one...lack of tunes! GT6 is a little more than 6 months old. And with PD needing to fix this or that, it has kinda scared some into not really posting tunes. Don't get me wrong, some of my favourites are still cranking out tunes at a great pace, but I know it's in the back of their minds that their setups might be junk or need re-worked based on these changes. Anyone remember the 2.10 update for GT5??? What a joke!! My garage has been up for months now and I have yet to post a single tune because of this fear. Just when I was going to post my Miata from the FITT challenge, the physics changed. So once things get worked out and tuners are comfortable in knowing what they need to know, you will start to see more and more tunes ranging throughout all the tires. Online users will get more comfortable with these assorted tunes and you will see the rooms change from RS to probably Sport Tires, I'm guessing. Until then...Racing Soft with SRF on in most. And if you want to be competitive in that, check out @Thorin Cain garage specialising in SRF tunes and put better tires on them if need be. Some great tunes for that!

But I would disagree with you on not needing or wanting multiple tunes for the same car...there are so many variables it's near impossible to just have 1 car with 1 tune for every track, there are things that need to be changed if you want to see the field from your rear view mirror. That's the fun of racing right???

Thanks for the endorsement @Lionheart2113. Check's in the mail.

Oh, wait...you're not trying to blame me for the state of the GT6 online racing experience are you?

You made some good points there. Not least of which is the need for different settings for different tracks. @esoxhntr, even taking away tyre choice from the equation, there are some cars I have 2 or 3 of, just to save time making some minor changes for different tracks.

I also think you're on to something about the inevitable physics changes too. I would expect there are a few out there that don't want the hassle of having to go back through everything they've published and seeing what works and what doesn't. This is the first time I've had to deal with a major physics change as a tuner and it's really interesting to see what the differences are in the tunes since the change. Frustrating? Yes, but it's all a learning experience, so that's a good thing!

Speaking of learning. Big thanks to yourself, @jules283 @Bowtie-muscle, @GTP_CargoRatt and @Motor City Hami for the testing you guys have done and reported on so far.

I've not had anywhere near enough game time recently to get to fully testing these changes myself, so hats off to you guys. There is a lot of good information which has come from these tests which will be really helpful to myself and the rest of the community.

Top job guys

 

[MrGrado]

If PD is actually starting to get close to reality with their simulated physics now, assuming they are consistently improving with each update, future changes will become less and less dramatic for tuners.

 

[rams1de]

I've no idea how close it is to reality, but it feels better. I'll carry on tuning my cars by feel, a few hundredths of a second here or there won't do me any favours. My time would be better spent trying to improve my driving.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I only test on Racing Soft tires and I only drive Flat Out.

(OFF TOPIC)
OH MY GOD!! Does that happen at car track days too? I used to love talking to the guys who were "fast on the street" about how to get around the track, have them nod and act like I was telling something they already knew, then shadowing them with one hand on the throttle and another on my hip because they were so slow...until the straight of course. It's funny how this is proportional to the expense of the machine

 

[esoxhntr]

All of you missed my point entirely.

If we look at the two posts below:

you guys can laugh all you want but

i) racing soft tires best illustrate the camber changes in 1.09 due to forces stressing the suspension, tires much more than harder compounds

If you look at some of the work done by @DolHaus in his tuning guide, he found that there can be camber differences with quality of tires. The better the tires, the more you can increase the camber, in small increments.

It stands to reason that the softest tire compound will shed light on this topic as the results are more obvious and put it to rest.

I'm not telling you to tune or race on RS nor am I opening up any RS tire can o worms, I am trying to help you all find the answer to this camber topic.

as for multiple tunes, there's only one track in this game with three configurations. LOL

 

[praiano63]

Till now nobody find an evident dynamic gain of grip due to camber. Just feelings. No proof or evidence.

GT6 1.09 don´t have anything to see with GT5 2.10 update where they shut down the ride height settings influence, in the way to resolve the RH glitch. I had to remake 80% of my cars at this time.

1.09 just bring a bit more understeer to the cars to let the MR principally safer.
They did this the PD way. I don´t think they bring any big change in the physics. For me, if the grip difference between sport medium and sport soft for example is 1 point, they´ve just add 1/4 point of grip at the rear and less 1/4 point of grip at the front. That´s all.

Like i´ve already said after my test, in my opinion, camber now work as an extra damper extension setting, it work very well like this. Same function same side front or rear.

All the rest continue the same, most of the cars never stabilised on his suspension after weight transfer, depending of the cars more or less but most of them have a snaky driving line due to this.

Some cars in low speed turns still spins without any reasons , a strange anoying bug .......

So in my opinion, there is no big change at all and PD have a lot of job to do on his suspension to let the game more real and fun to drive.

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°°

 

[Voodoovaj]

Racing soft tires can mask problems with a tune. For example, a wider range of LSD settings can work with racing soft tires. Why? Not because the racing tire needed different settings, but only because the racing tire can work with a wider range of settings. If you can truly get the racing soft tire up to it's limits, it will usually like settings that work very well on harder tires. It is difficult to get 400PP, 500PP, 550pp cars over the limits of the racing soft tire.

I have not seen very many sport hard tunes not also work very well with racing hard tires. But, on the other hand, I have seen plenty of racing tire tunes that fall apart on sport or comfort tires. My opinion is that the reason the tune fell apart on harder tires was that it had flaws in it to begin with that were being masked by the softer compound tire.

100% agree - When I was trying to figure out camber and toe figures for the wizard I, I used comfort soft. This is why RS is so popular online. The tires are making up for setup deficiencies.

 

[Lionheart2113]

All of you missed my point entirely.

If we look at the two posts below:





It stands to reason that the softest tire compound will shed light on this topic as the results are more obvious and put it to rest.

I'm not telling you to tune or race on RS nor am I opening up any RS tire can o worms, I am trying to help you all find the answer to this camber topic.

as for multiple tunes, there's only one track in this game with three configurations. LOL

A larger number for camber doesn't necessarily mean that the camber using Racing Softs will be more noticeable. What I, @Motor City Hami , and others are trying to say is that a less grippy tire allows you to feel more of the track and what the car is doing. If the car is on rails with Racing Softs being used, I find it more difficult figuring out which way to go with some adjustments. But yes, Racing Softs should be tested as much as any of the other tire compounds, I totally agree with that.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Till now nobody find an evident dynamic gain of grip due to camber. Just feelings. No proof or evidence.

...

Some cars in low speed turns still spins without any reasons , a strange annoying bug .......

Not quite sure if you are following along or not. I posted right after the update that the data logger showed definite changes the car's performance (I used the Yellow Bird at Ascari). Grip was gained MOST on high speed corners where the load was the highest. Corner speed was higher in all cases, except the slowest corners. Grip was lost on corner entry and corner exit (braking and acceleration), which I am sure is a contributor to the lower corner speed on slow corners.

As far as your spin is concerned, I suspect that you are running your camber too high. You recommended 3.0 or lower, but I have not seen a benefit or gain above 1.5.

As, as I found in my testing, camber angle can be increased/decreased very slightly as toe angle increases/decreases. (I found about 0.1 camber/0.1 toe change from the default).

Are you using the data logger to compare your laps times? IF you are, you should see the difference pretty easily.