1.09 update physics changes....

[mustangxr]

Hello, i have a few questions for the tuners out there:

Do you think the new physics (especially tire physics) is detailed enough to affect the handling of cars by using different rim sizes?
Since the sidewall height changes through the different rim sizes, does it affect the amount of camber to use?​

And does the tire width affects the use of camber?
Wider tire have a greater contact patch, therefore a higher camber could be used?

​

I ran the last seasonal quite a bit in "A Spec" and in the advanced class at Suzuka, I used the NSX-R LM Prototype Road Car for the most part. I tried going to a bigger wheel diameter while changing out the wheels (stock rims looked like Granny wheels) and the result was slower laps with less consistent grip (there's that word again) So went back to stock size in a good looking wheel and got my mojo back again.
Cheers, Mustangxr

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Best comment yet!

We are over thinking it people. There is no way that PD has programmed as much as this community can think of. Want evidence... why would so many cars come with default settings of 1.5/3.5 camber and -50/+100 toe and dampers at 3/3 and ARBs at 3/3 and LSD at 10/40/20 and etc.. etc. ? Let's do some laps and report back. I moved this to there and either something or nothing happened.

Sounds familiar...oh wait, yea, that's what I tried telling you and everyone else here. Glad to see you're finally adapting to the "Keep It Simple Stupid" approach. Now I bet you'll start to see things a little differently without the over complications. That's what I've been trying to tell you all along. Keep it simple and a little bit of outside the box thinking and there you go....its worked well for me anyway.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Sounds familiar...oh wait, yea, that's what I tried telling you and everyone else here. Glad to see you're finally adapting to the "Keep It Simple Stupid" approach. Now I bet you'll start to see things a little differently without the over complications. That's what I've been trying to tell you all along. Keep it simple and a little bit of outside the box thinking and there you go....its worked well for me anyway.

Yes and I agreed with you about that. I still don't know where you get the misconception that I will be clouded by my real world experience?

Let's do that group testing that I mentioned. I like the thoughts about the 69 Camaro and maybe even the 2010. I will PM you around 9 pm if I am going to be able to play tonight.

 

[JaseScott]

I ran the last seasonal quite a bit in "A Spec" and in the advanced class at Suzuka, I used the NSX-R LM Prototype Road Car for the most part. I tried going to a bigger wheel diameter while changing out the wheels (stock rims looked like Granny wheels) and the result was slower laps with less consistent grip (there's that word again) So went back to stock size in a good looking wheel and got my mojo back again.
Cheers, Mustangxr

If you're killing your car that much with rim diameters, highly consider your final drive.
Sure, big rims will feather edges, but to totally kill your car?
Sounds like more at play here...

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Yes and I agreed with you about that. I still don't know where you get the misconception that I will be clouded by my real world experience?

Let's do that group testing that I mentioned. I like the thoughts about the 69 Camaro and maybe even the 2010. I will PM you around 9 pm if I am going to be able to play tonight.

Its just a sub-conscience mindset that you may have because of your background, that's all I'm saying. You know, the way you may look at things a bit differently than say someone like me who only has a gaming mentality. Its not a bad thing, really. People just tend to look at things a bit differently or have a different mindset than others because of what/how they are used to thinking. I wish you could understand what I am trying to say. Anyways, I'm sure you'll figure things out like you always do, that's why you're the "teach". 👍

 

[Motor City Hami]

Its just a sub-conscience mindset that you may have because of your background, that's all I'm saying. You know, the way you may look at things a bit differently than say someone like me who only has a gaming mentality. Its not a bad thing, really. People just tend to look at things a bit differently or have a different mindset than others because of what/how they are used to thinking. I wish you could understand what I am trying to say. Anyways, I'm sure you'll figure things out like you always do, that's why you're the "teach". 👍

I get your point, but I am claiming not to fall into that crowd. I think what helps is that I have tuned for so many different types of racing. In real life, dirt oval stock cars, asphalt oval sprint cars, Honda Civic race car and Spec Miata. In remote controlled, dirt oval, asphalt oval, road course, carpet, off-road, touring cars, LMP cars. I don't think of things from one point of view.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

I get your point, but I am claiming not to fall into that crowd. I think what helps is that I have tuned for so many different types of racing. In real life, dirt oval stock cars, asphalt oval sprint cars, Honda Civic race car and Spec Miata. In remote controlled, dirt oval, asphalt oval, road course, carpet, off-road, touring cars, LMP cars. I don't think of things from one point of view.

Alright, just giving my opinion and thoughts, that's all.

 

[mustangxr]

I ran he last seasonal quite a bit in "A Spec" and in the advance class at Suzuka, I used the NSX-R LM Prototype Road Car for the most part. I tried going to a bigger wheel diameter while changing out the wheels (stock rims looked like Granny wheels) and the result was slower laps with less consistent grip (there's that word again) So went back to stock size in a good looking wheel and got my mojo back again.
Cheers, Mustangxr

OK, I just did a 3 hour grind with the Daytona at Silverstone GP. I was thinking to test the 1.09 tune on race medium, like the tune tested yesterday, see previous post. (I mistakenly ran the 1.09 tune on Race Soft instead of Race Medium)

Then I thought, well, maybe I'll just retest the Mustangxr's tune (Team Viejo Tune) on race soft then the test will still be apples to apples.
Here are the results of so many laps I don't even want to think about it!! On my tune, published yesterday on this thread, now running RACE SOFT.
1:54.4 running Mustangxr's Tune as published, race soft. Front camber 2.5, Front Toe -0.08
This would seem to be quite a bit faster than the 1.09 default settings which ran 1:58
1:54.2 Difference = Front Toe out: -0.16 BTW these times represent averages of 4 or 5 laps.
1:54.7 Difference = Front Toe Out; -0.26
1.54.8 Difference = Front Toe out; -0.32
1:54.8 Difference = Front Toe Out;-0.42

At this point, changes did not seem to improve the times so I changed the Camber to 2.0 (from 2.50)
In retrospect, perhaps I should have kept increasing Toe Out.

1;54.8 Difference = Front Toe Out; -0.08 Camber 2.0
1:56.4 Difference = Front Toe Out: -0.16 " "
1;55.5 Difference = Front Toe Out: -0.24 " "
1:54.8 Difference = Front Toe Out: -0.32 " "
1:55.2 Difference = Front Toe Out: -0.42 " "
1:55.3 Difference = Front Toe Out: -0.52
1:53.9 Difference = Front Toe Out: -0.62 Hey, what's going on here??? That was the best lap out of 4, but the others
were all 1;54.5 or less.
1:55.0 Difference = Front Toe Out: -0.72 Hmmmmm.
At this point I had to quit because I was too tired to put down consistent laps!
Looking back at theses numbers, perhaps I should have kept going with the Toe Out increases on the 2.5 camber. Another day maybe.
Cheers, Mustangxr

BTW, I know I'm not very fast, but keep in mind I'm 71 so I don't have the reflexes that you young guys have. I am pretty consistent though, and I learned that flying jets for 17,000 hours. Which enabled me to make enough money to race real cars, real motorcycles and real tunnel boats!! LOL GT-6 is a lot cheaper though.

t

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

If any one is interested, I have begun a camber which I have posted here. I will try and finish later or tomorrow night.
Not what I expected to say the least. Please ignore my laptimes, I am not necessarily as fast as some of you.
Blasted DS3

 

[DolHaus]

Hello, i have a few questions for the tuners out there:

Do you think the new physics (especially tire physics) is detailed enough to affect the handling of cars by using different rim sizes?
Since the sidewall height changes through the different rim sizes, does it affect the amount of camber to use?​

And does the tire width affects the use of camber?
Wider tire have a greater contact patch, therefore a higher camber could be used?

​

There was a slight difference pre 1.09, it didn't have a noticeable difference in performance but it showed up on the data logger.
I have run one test to check this since the update and didn't notice anything on the data logger but I believe I have felt a difference on some cars when changing rim size. Since it was just a feeling, I can not confirm or deny if there was an actual difference.

 

[GTP IWIN]

Previously most MR cars very super responsive (dino, F430, NSX) and had lots of rotation. All you needed to do was tame the weight transfer a bit to have a really really fast car. Now it seems as @GTP IWIN said, they seem to understeer but still feel ok. It seems to me like they drive as if they are heavier or have a much stiffer chassis. They still turn in decently but will then push through the middle of a corner and not want to rotate on exit.

I know I don't have the pull as a tuner around here like you and @praiano63 do but I've really been trying this thing out with the changes to MR cars and addition of camber. I have to agree and disagree at the same time. I'm getting various results on a car by car basis and was incredibly surprised by my latest retune today.

I've been updating my top 3 tunes for each class to see which is now the fastest for that class and I've been working on 550pp. First was my fastest with The Audi R8 4.2 that ran a 2:00.4 around the Nurburgring GP/F (my main test track). Leaving the 1.08 tune on with 0 camber it lost a complete second due to pushing out through the corners that made me have to go slower to maintain grip. I tried adding camber to the existing tune with a high of about 2f and 2.3r with no real results. I then bought a new car and went completely from scratch and eventually ended up with a similar tune but stiffer and with higher LSD settings but could only match the same lap time.

For the last 2 days I've been tuning a 550pp F430 scuderia that previously ran a 2:00.7 just behind the R8 before 1.09. I started from scratch again and was able to get down to a 2:00.1 with again a stiffer car and completely different damper settings than my 1.08 tune. I knew if I could just get the back to move around a bit more i could brake that 2min barrier I've been trying for.

After a whole days worth of trying different things I about gave up. I then decided to just see what would happen with the 1.08 settings and matched my best no problem ! I added a small amount of camber to get rid of the mid corner push, dropped the LSD accell 2 ticks, and stiffened the front springs to have a little more grip in the rear and ran a 1:59.8 with another tenth or two out there in a perfect lap. Despite braking 2min it still didn't come out of a corner like the 1.08 car. I then upped the accell setting to 26 and was the closest I had been to the 1.08 handling, the only thing missing was the lift off over steer. I decided to keep the 16 accell setting for the public tune because the 26 setting requires much more throttle control.

Borrowed your quick sheet Hami thanks.


1.08 Tune
Ride Height 75/100
Springs 8.5/13.00
Dampers Compression 4/4
Dampers Extension 5/5
Anti-Roll Bars 3/4
Camber 0.0/0.0
Toe -0.05/.12
Brake balance 6/5
LSD 8/18/8


1.09 Tune
Ride Height 75/100
Springs 8.95/13.00
Dampers Compression 4/4
Dampers Extension 5/5
Anti-Roll Bars 3/4
Camber 0.5/0.4
Toe 0/-.05
Brake balance 5/5
LSD 8/16/8

The point I'm getting too, sorry for length lol, is that i've now spent a lot of time on 3 cars i'm very familiar with and they each had different changes made to them.

The dino that used to rotate too much from the factory now reaches it's turn in limit very quickly and the rear follows the front instead of coming around. It turned into a dream with some tuning before and now needed a cvery different setup to get similar but slightly safer results.

The R8 used to be very neutral with understeer at the limit from the factory and now completely understeers all the time. When tuned, it never quite rotates like it did but is incredibly predictable even when driven at 100%

The Scuderia was a car I could say was 90% perfect from the factory. 10% tuning for stability and you had a masterpiece. Now it's a bit safer and has lost it's lift off over steer from the factory and takes more extensive tuning to be as responsive as the 1.08 car.

So I agree that the MR cars are still good and faster than the other drivertrains. but I disagree about the camber.

3 of 3 cars are faster and more stable with camber. small amounts (under 1)
2 or 3 cars needed complete retunes to be marginally faster
1 of 3 cars needed minor changes to incredibly faster

I've found that camber most affects corner exit grip and the progressiveness and ease of correction of a slide. I have yet to find one of my tunes that doesn't benefit from camber, even if it's just a small amount.

Yes I agree the cars initial turn in is the same but once you hit mid corner you get that pushing understeer it's more so worse for fr and ff drivetrains with mr cars they seem to be less effected due to the weight balance being better so fr and ff need to be retuned more so and mr cars not so much as they have better weight balance.

And your right camber actually slows the car down it works but I feel 0 camber is still the best setting for optimum corner speed.

 

[ImToLegitToQuit]

i'm working out my own tests at the moment, i'll need everyones help to get the most thorough results. The way I have set it up, it will be as little or as much work as you want with a minimum requirement of only about 1 hour of driving. I'm going to do the initial test for each drivetrain so we have somewhere to start with settings changes. Should have it up by tomorrow morning.

 

[GTP IWIN]

Every car is the same all cars I have tuned since update go slower around corners when using camber so I still don't tune with it all camber really does it make the car easier to drive at the expense of corner speed it could be my playing style but as far as I know a lot of the fast guys are still using no camber at least for the street cars I don't know about race cars but I just tunes a Viper race car for the wgt2 series and I use 0 camber and it works better for me still.

i'm working out my own tests at the moment, i'll need everyones help to get the most thorough results. The way I have set it up, it will be as little or as much work as you want with a minimum requirement of only about 1 hour of driving. I'm going to do the initial test for each drivetrain so we have somewhere to start with settings changes. Should have it up by tomorrow morning.

I don't' mind helping you out if you need a hand just send me a request if you want.

 

[mustangxr]

If you're killing your car that much with rim diameters, highly consider your final drive.
Sure, big rims will feather edges, but to totally kill your car?
Sounds like more at play here...

Jase,
No, it wasn't anything to do with final drive, the car just got real skittery, and started sliding around uncontrollably.
Cheers, Mustangxr

 

[Robbks]

A LOT of posts here speculating and talking about lap times,
But from a very old tuning guide, the simplest option to test what gives the grip is to use the data logger and a single corner approach

i.e Pick one corner of a track, say Turn 1 Grand Valley
And see what speed you can maintain through the corner with the various settings.

Then the next option is o move to a different radius or different banking and repeat.

I don;t have hours to play at the best of times, most of my tunes are all "near enough" from real world physics and a few tweaks, I just learn to drive the car how it is basically.
But if i have a particular car that just won;t turn in or give grip on corner exit, I'll do a quick set of tests as detailed above.

I've actually really enjoying driving and racing with near stock street cars. (change clutches, exhaust/ intake and LSD)

 

[JaseScott]

I dial my toe in with the data logger.
Wish I had all this fancy stuff when I was learning...

 

[Robbks]

what values of camber (F+R) are you using which is causing lower corner speeds.?
Tested individually, or concurrently?
And what "playing style" do you use (got any videos?) i.e do you like a stiff, tail-happy car or one you can throw around on softer suspension and use the weight transfer to get the outside tyres to grip..?

 

[JaseScott]

Ok, let's see here, ahhh... rubbish.... ummm... bit more, hmmm... nothing useful really...

You guys are all lost trying to make each other faster not your vehicles.
Need to learn some throttle control.

do you like a stiff, tail-happy car or one you can throw around on softer suspension and use the weight transfer to get the outside tyres to grip..?

Forget you ever said that, reform your concepts

 

[332i]

Every car is the same all cars I have tuned since update go slower around corners when using camber so I still don't tune with it all camber really does it make the car easier to drive at the expense of corner speed it could be my playing style but as far as I know a lot of the fast guys are still using no camber at least for the street cars I don't know about race cars but I just tunes a Viper race car for the wgt2 series and I use 0 camber and it works better for me still.

I have done nothing to one of my 97Ts over the past week. I've been using the same setup at every track. I started from 1:46s on a zero camber setup at spa. Then went to this past setup (cambered) until tonight, and I couldn't best my 1:45.1. Then, I found more rear grip tonight, so the quest was on for more front grip. I just wrapped it up and am probably not going to change it for a while. I shut the ps3 off, but I ran a 1:43.7xx at spa. That's 3 seconds off my zero camber setup. My first cambered setup knocked off another 1.5s. Then a little more, minor toe adjustments, and back one % off the accel lock brought me down to 1:43s. And that was my first and only lap. I called it quits, because it's 4am. But, I figure I'll be in the 1:42s tomorrow and I can find more grip.

On the same setups as the spa example, I went from 1:08s at the RBR, to 1:07s, and right now I'm stuck in the low 1:06s. I can't recall to what tenth. With each setup overhaul, I knocked of a second.

At Monaco, I went from 1:17.1, to 1:16.7 and on to 1:14.5 tonight.

That was all done offline. My times online seem about a half second slower right now on my old camber setup. Was a little more up until a few days ago, but it seems I must be managing tires better.

This is using ABS1 only. I'm not locking up anywhere or skimming tires across the pavement, so I'll probably be shutting it off. Will only be quicker anyways. Although I wasn't expecting the new setup with a little more camber to improve times this much, I'm more surprised that the same setup put down all three of those times. Usually I have to add or subtract a little front camber, depending on the track. About .1 in either direction. Didn't change a thing. The car felt best everywhere in this form.

Camber is faster and that will be more obvious in short time as people are quickly beginning to figure out how to reappoach things.

 

[JaseScott]

camber may or may not be faster, depends on what lines your searching for, at what track, in what car, in what day, under what conditions, TT or race or drag or drift or ...........................

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Sorry, you´re right. When i had tested it a few days ago with a racing car 600pp /racing hard last day, i didn´t find any difference in braking distance. Now i´ve tested it agin after the job and yes, there is a difference in braking distance
2 cars with a racing car 600pp/ camber 10.0 /racing hard
5 cars with a 550pp road car / camber 10.0 /sport hard
You´re not a liar and i´m a stupid guy...... but all the rest about what i think about 1.09 camber is still good for me.

Sorry i don´t understand this technical things even more in english. I´m just a kind fisherman, i don´t have any car in the real life but i understand how in work in the game only.
Don´t worry with the wheel inputs, they are very good and precise with a G27. You can fel a lot more thing than a controller.


Sorry again cargo.

No problems my friend, apology accepted. I know you are very passionate about what you do here and I can respect that. You just have to remember though to keep an open mind at all times because sometimes our passion for the game can get in the way of rational thinking. Disagreements are a good thing as it helps find the correct answer or at least a better way of doing things sometimes. Also, don't be so quick to cast aside the "little guys" opinions and/or ideas as sometimes even they have something to bring to the table. Peace my friend.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

I just finished my testing and will try to post results in the morning. Think you will find my conclusion interesting.
It will be here.

Edit: results can be found at the link above. Here is my conclusion(also at that post)


Conclusion
Does camber make you faster, that is the question? The answer is NO and Yes. By itself no, however you can feel gains with it as well as loses. Mid-corner grip goes up with front camber, exit grip with rear. Braking suffers if you go too high with the front. Lap times are not the best way to judge, feel is. This test allowed me to feel each change and I had to adjust to each. The tune did not like the rear higher than the front or equal to it. It always felt better with the front higher than the rear. I suspect this would be the opposite with a MR car. I also suspect (and will have to test) that harder tires, i.e.; comfort soft/sport hard would like less camber and softer tires, RH-RS would like more. Braking becomes a big issue and with tires having less grip to begin with, you would really need to brake earlier and lap times would suffer. Tires with more grip would handle more before noticing(just a theory right now).
The use of camber as an aide for certain handling issues will make a tune faster in parts of the track and slower in others. A 0.0 camber tune may still be faster for a given lap!!! but over a span of laps, I believe the consistency with would win out. Camber can definitely now be used to improve a tune whereas in 1.08, it would hinder.
For me, somewhere around 1.0/0.5 is the sweet spot and I would build from there with this car. Building a tune from scratch and using camber would be more beneficial than just adding camber. This car was tuned for 0.0/0.0, with camber it may need a few tweaks to make the car better. I would suggest trying this tune at 0.0 and than with 1.0/0.5 for yourself and see if you feel the difference. As for me, I will be using camber going forward until I hear results from @Motor City Hami with his testing. Better more clear tester than myself, very thorough as we all know and trust.

 

[332i]

I agree that it is not going to make you faster, inherently. It depends on how use the setup. IMO, the fastest way at this point is to tailor a car to your driving style. I find this a lot with a few buddies. We'll play online, I'll get off, make some tweaks and the next time I've shaved a half second to a second off. "Duuude, what did you change??" I'll tell them, they'll try the setup and do the same or worse than they were before. "The car understeers so badly!" Not for me If your tuner late apexes, trail brakes, etc. and you don't, you're going to be making a lot of adjustments/may want to try asking for another tune or seeking another tuner. Just something that I'm noticing right now, because I brake and apex very late. Because of that, I'm usually running the front fairly soft, with the compression between 7-9 for nosediving and then I run toe out in the rear on every single car I tune to exit hard and rotate the rear on entry and midturn. Just what feels best to me and I think that is probably go to go the way of most. How hard and at what points you turn in, get on the throttle and so on.

Another thing I find to tighten up a car as much as possible from the get-go, is run your steering wheel at a lower lock. I tune my cars on 450* and they're ridiculously easy to bang on at 670 and 900 (g27 user).

 

[Weider]

Also, don't be so quick to cast aside the "little guys" opinions and/or ideas as sometimes even they have something to bring to the table. Peace my friend.

He never does. It is you who kept repeatedly saying you are a nobody and a little guy like you want us to disagree with you. You are a well known competent tuner with a good following but with a preacher's mentality... inferiority complex by saying you are a nobody, and then preach to others to be this way or that like you're God!

I find this a lot with a few buddies. We'll play online, I'll get off, make some tweaks and the next time I've shaved a half second to a second off. "Duuude, what did you change??" I'll tell them, they'll try the setup and do the same or worse than they were before. .

Still waiting to try your tune or are we not friends?

 

[ImToLegitToQuit]

sorry guys got distracted at work, testing is still ongoing but it is really boring and I tend to play games to have fun. It's hard to come home and play GT6 when you've been driving this for real but I'll try to get back into it tonight. A sneak peek though, so far my fastest lap during testing was set at .2/.2 in a MR car.

 

[killerjimbag]

I think they have did something with floors also. Still doing some tests,but it is very interesting. I was trying to replicate the Aston Martin V12 GT3 car. Had a ton of trouble, put on all aero kits and flat floor. Runs like a dream. Going to do some more tests.

 

[DolHaus]

I think they have did something with floors also. Still doing some tests,but it is very interesting.

I did wonder if they would have made some changes there, its not exactly proved popular so far. Great grip but not worth the PP

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

He never does. It is you who kept repeatedly saying you are a nobody and a little guy like you want us to disagree with you. You are a well known competent tuner with a good following but with a preacher's mentality... inferiority complex by saying you are a nobody, and then preach to others to be this way or that like you're God!



Still waiting to try your tune or are we not friends?

Learn to comprehend what you read. By "little guy", I meant not as big of a following/fanbase as say him or Hami. In no way do I have any kind of complex, just stating the facts. I don't have a huge garage, I haven't written any kind of tuning guides...all I've done is tuned a few cars for the Seasonal TT's. So yes, I am a "little guy" in comparison to those tuners. Furthermore, I wasn't just talking about myself when I made that statement. There are others that are also not as well known as tuners but do have some good ideas/opinions to bring to the table. And sometimes those people do get ignored just because they aren't as well known. So please, stop taking out of context what I write for the sole purpose of taking a shot at me. And in no way to I think of myself like a God or some kind of preacher, I only share what I find. That's just ridiculous.

 

[Motor City Hami]

So I did some testing over the past few days and think that I can say that camber did something. Before posting the findings, I want to see if others are experiencing something similar. I don't want to cloud anyone's thoughts on it so I will just ask this.

Camber seemed to help one part of the corner and hurt another part of the corner. My lap times across the spectrum of camber are very, very close, but I think camber helped in one way and hurt in another so we are at a stalemate for lap times.

So has anyone else noticed a difference in camber helping or hurting corner entry or exit. Just curious if your results are the same direction as mine.

Thoughts?

 

[WhoosierGirl]

This is something I have observed when adding camber to my Volkswagen Scirocco R '10. I like to use it in the career mode Super races, being it is front wheel drive I have to be easy on the accelerator to not use up the tires. I have won most but not all the S races with the little VW so, I wanted to try some camber settings to see if it would help.

I tried camber at Willow Springs in .5 increments up to 2.5 on the front only, seeing that the rear tires only get down to 6/7. Laps 1/2 and 4/5 were faster with camber up to 2.0, 2.5 was the same as 2.0 but, the tire wear and grip were noticeably reduced on laps 3/4 and 7/8.

As I tried different camber settings I could feel that the car had less grip when the tires were worn with more camber than less. I went back and looked at replays to see if what I was feeling was showing up in lap times and in how the car looked. I could see that with the tires below 3/4 wear the higher camber had less grip and was slower in lap times than a lower camber setting. 1.0 on my setup with this car seemed to be a good trade off of tire wear and lap times.