- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
Great data there, good job 👍
The RX7 (FD3) has some grip buffs apparently so I would be careful with using it for data
1.09 update physics changes....
- Thread starter feydrautha
- 407 comments
- 25,076 views
- 11,207
- Adrian, Mich.
- cargorat323
- CargoRatt
As you guys know, I respect each and every one of you as tuners, I have learned much of what I know from you guys, especially you Hami. But after reading through the last few pages or so, I really think you guys are over complicating things. Keep it simple, don't over think things, its just a game. Hami, I think you are looking at things from a real world point of view and that is why you are having trouble understanding how camber is working in the game. You have to look at it from both sides of the coin, sort of mix and match if you will. That's the difference between you and I....I look at it from a gaming point of view first then try to add real world tuning techniques, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Each car is different. I say this all because I am having no trouble in getting camber to work for me, both in handling and in lap times. I am running the WRS event right now and currently sit in 4th place overall, my highest spot ever. The car is tuned with 1.5/1.8 camber...great cornering and great acceleration out of the corners. Tuned without camber, I can't even touch my ghost. I won't give out my tune right yet because, well, its the WRS and I need all the advantage I can get. 
From what I have seen with camber so far, there is really no hard and fast rule about how to use it. (I'm sure there must be..maybe, but I haven't found it) Different cars work with different setups as it relates to the use of camber. Once you see my tune, you will see what I mean, its pretty drastic and not something you would expect. Every test I have performed, I have always been faster with camber, but its been a long and drawn out testing procedure for each car to get it to that point. I'm sorry that I have no proof of my claims to bring to the table, all I have is my test results which is good enough for me. Bottom line though, I just think you guys are over thinking things here. Much respect to you guys and really enjoy the read, just keep things simple, that's all I really have to say. Love ya guys. 
From what I have seen with camber so far, there is really no hard and fast rule about how to use it. (I'm sure there must be..maybe, but I haven't found it) Different cars work with different setups as it relates to the use of camber. Once you see my tune, you will see what I mean, its pretty drastic and not something you would expect. Every test I have performed, I have always been faster with camber, but its been a long and drawn out testing procedure for each car to get it to that point. I'm sorry that I have no proof of my claims to bring to the table, all I have is my test results which is good enough for me. Bottom line though, I just think you guys are over thinking things here. Much respect to you guys and really enjoy the read, just keep things simple, that's all I really have to say. Love ya guys. 
- 506
- uk
- bulletproofbrian
@Lionheart2113, @DolHaus Cheers Boys! I was reading through the thread this morning and felt inspired to do some testing. I dont usually test by laptime so it was good practice. 👍 The set up is all there if anyone wants to repeat the test.
I was reading through the thread this morning and felt inspired to do some testing. I dont usually test by laptime so it was good practice. 👍 The set up is all there if anyone wants to repeat the test.
- 4,018
- New Jersey
- crash27wwjd
You can take a guy out of the city, but not the city out of the guy! You can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig. You can dress a wolf in sheeps clothing but it is still a wolf. Some things just have no ability to change.
- 1,485
- Hampshire
- Lionheart2113
Lipstick on a pig...
For some reason all I can see is Cleatus from the Simpsons! But very true and well spotted!
- 252
- UK
- jules283
Just a quick note/advice. Camber is last on my list of things to do in GT6 and so I have been mentally planning how to test it. I figured that camber potentially changes handling and grip.
A change in handling will affect lap time but is dependent on driver preference.
So my idea was to also compare peak corner speeds with data logger ( to show a possible increase in grip ).
Anyway , I thought I should share this idea since it might be useful.
A change in handling will affect lap time but is dependent on driver preference.
So my idea was to also compare peak corner speeds with data logger ( to show a possible increase in grip ).
Anyway , I thought I should share this idea since it might be useful.
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
Its a good thought, I would be tempted to look at peak corner lateral G as well as speed. A properly cambered tyre should be able to hit a higher peak G. I'm trying to think of a corner where you encounter high lateral forces while turning in off the throttle.
If you kept the suspension settings constant and just worked your way through the camber settings you should eventually arrive at a conclusion for the perfect camber angle to suit that setup.
- 252
- UK
- jules283
Another idea is to attempt to keep balance constant.
So instead of 0.5/0 to 1.0/0 to 1.5/0 we try:-
1) Double rear camber from 0.1/0.2 to 0.2/0.4 to 0.4/0.8 to 0.5/1.0 to 1.0/2.0 and so on.
2) Double front camber from 0.2/0.1 to 0.4/0.2 to 0.8/0.4 to 2.0/1.0 etc. etc.
Or, of course 0/0 to 0.5/0.5 to 1.0/1.0 etc., etc.
So instead of 0.5/0 to 1.0/0 to 1.5/0 we try:-
1) Double rear camber from 0.1/0.2 to 0.2/0.4 to 0.4/0.8 to 0.5/1.0 to 1.0/2.0 and so on.
2) Double front camber from 0.2/0.1 to 0.4/0.2 to 0.8/0.4 to 2.0/1.0 etc. etc.
Or, of course 0/0 to 0.5/0.5 to 1.0/1.0 etc., etc.
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- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
Mitch, with respect, I completely disagree with you there. Not sure what I have posted to lead you to think that I am on the real world side of things. If anything, I thought that I was being the voice of "what happens in the game."
So let me state it more clearly for everyone in this thread. GT6 is a video game. I don't care one ounce if camber thrust, caster, tire deflection, or any other real world explanation was programmed into the game. What I care about is that if I move the numbers one way, there is a predictable result and I move them the other way, it does the opposite. There is too much real world and replica B.S. being talked about here. @brian wolf is one of the few who did some logical tests and posted results. So that's where I am headed... to the game track to test. No more back and forth on what things could mean for possible programming from the real world. The lever moves one way and then the other and either produces results or it doesn't, period. I'll post results in a few days when I have them.
killerjimbag
(Banned)
- 4,018
- The Great White North
- abetterplaya
Sorry guy's, there is no real world physics going on in the game.
It all comes down to driving styles,controller, or wheel, blah,blah,blah. Take 3 cars,FF,MR,RR.
Test stock, then adjust camber,post results.Pretty simple.
It all comes down to driving styles,controller, or wheel, blah,blah,blah. Take 3 cars,FF,MR,RR.
Test stock, then adjust camber,post results.Pretty simple.
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
I would do equal values front and rear first and then move onto the method you described, that should give a broad range of results. Up to you really, will be interesting to see your results.
I understand where you are coming from and what you are looking for, I'm sure you will find the right range of settings to fit your criteria eventually. At the moment its sort of like someone asking what the correct number is for their front spring without saying what car it is, what tyres its running or what they intend to do with it. There is no correct answer because there is not enough information given in the question.
I look forward to seeing your findings though, best of luck 👍
- 11,207
- Adrian, Mich.
- cargorat323
- CargoRatt
I only said what I did because of your real world racing and driving experience, and maybe that is your mindset, because you come from such a background, that's all I mean. Me on the other hand, not one bit of experience like you have so my mindset is from a gaming point of view....do you understand what I'm trying to say. Anyways, since I am just the little peon here, I'll just be on my way and continue on with what seems to be working for me. I have nothing to prove here, I've already proved it to myself and in the end, that's all that matters. I'm not a big name tuner so anything I say is just going to be taken with a grain of salt anyway, so I'll just be on my way.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
I don't have time to do these tests, too busy already I let my creations do the talking, anyone want to test, feel free to use my RJN 370Z GT4 or McLaren MP4-12C GT3 ( was a tune of the week ), drive it with camber like in the replica ( yeah that BS ) and without at Silverstone GP, and let the outcome speak for itself. If wanted a road car, use my Honda NSX Type R '92 replica, test with camber and without on Laguna Seca or Ascari or Spa ? It was also a tune of the week back when camber was broken, should be good enough or maybe not, I am not a pro tuner with awesome rep, never won any FITT event, all of my FITT entry were not competitive, so my words may not carry any weight to some, just BS, so driving one of my car might be better alternative, but I know the chances are very slim that any of the big name tuner will drive my car
I let my creations do the talking, anyone want to test, feel free to use my RJN 370Z GT4 or McLaren MP4-12C GT3 ( was a tune of the week ), drive it with camber like in the replica ( yeah that BS ) and without at Silverstone GP, and let the outcome speak for itself. If wanted a road car, use my Honda NSX Type R '92 replica, test with camber and without on Laguna Seca or Ascari or Spa ? It was also a tune of the week back when camber was broken, should be good enough or maybe not, I am not a pro tuner with awesome rep, never won any FITT event, all of my FITT entry were not competitive, so my words may not carry any weight to some, just BS, so driving one of my car might be better alternative, but I know the chances are very slim that any of the big name tuner will drive my car
- 1,485
- Hampshire
- Lionheart2113
Not a big name tuner, but I'll try one of your tunes at Ascari, need more practice at that track. Suggestions for that slick monster?I don't have time to do these tests, too busy already
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
Thank you for the willingness to drive my car, you can find the Honda NSX Type R '92 here : Honda NSX Type R '92 ( Real World Setup version ) Ayrton Senna Tribute 284HP 463PP Comfort Soft to Sports Medium
I don't have any specific suggestion, maybe fit tire that suits you best, the replica was made / tested on CS to SM tire
, if you want you can test CS and SH/SM ( with and without camber ) It would be interesting to find out the outcome. The car is very close to stock, just suspension and LSD as well as corrected weight distribution and no oil change 
- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
I only said what I did because of your real world racing and driving experience, and maybe that is your mindset, because you come from such a background, that's all I mean. Me on the other hand, not one bit of experience like you have so my mindset is from a gaming point of view....do you understand what I'm trying to say. Anyways, since I am just the little peon here, I'll just be on my way and continue on with what seems to be working for me. I have nothing to prove here, I've already proved it to myself and in the end, that's all that matters. I'm not a big name tuner so anything I say is just going to be taken with a grain of salt anyway, so I'll just be on my way.
You are also a faster driver than me and putting out very good tunes. You can no longer hide behind peon status. You tested, learned then put your money where your mouth is and started posting tunes. I have respect for anyone who has a tuning theory then follows it and puts their work out there. Others just like to throw out real world stats, maybe post a tune when really pushed to then tells everyone that they do not know how to drive without ABS (talking about the famous Jack Napier from months ago).
As for me and the real world experience, even if you want to be good in the real world you have to try things that no one else is thinking of. You have to be willing to understand the basic functions then step outside the box and try a few things that just might work. When I raced remote controlled cars, I designed my own suspensions and some of those crazy ideas went on to be produced in my sponsors kits.
It is the same mindset for video games. What levers do I have to work with and in what combinations can I find speed. So in my eyes, step one is what does the camber lever do. Step two is what did it affect positively and negatively. Step three is what other combinations might work to offset the negatives without destroying the positives. I am just reacting in this thread to the "it depends" results. It depends on what? So if camber depends on toe, then if I am running 2.0 front camber, what toe range should I also consider and why. Not because some real world book said to add toe out. It should come from increased front camber caused x at turn in , but destroyed x in another part of the corner. Add some toe x to counter the negative affects of adding camber. You cannot arrive at that answer without first know in general what camber does on its own and what toe does on its own, etc. I agree with @killerjimbag in that we need to isolate settings in tests to understand the basics, then play with the millions of combinations.
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
I propose that one of us posts 3 basic tunes for one car (S2000 seems a good place to start). The tune doesn't need to be special or fast, it just needs to suit Comfort tyres on one setup, Sports tyres on another, Racing tyres on the last. All should use the same base parts and be tuned to 0.0.
Each of us takes this car to a separate track and tests between a fixed range of camber
0.0-2.0 on Comfort
1.0-3.0 on Sports
2.0-4.0 on Racing
We then compare lap times and any patterns we noticed on the data logger
That should give a good overview of what is going on, right?
Each of us takes this car to a separate track and tests between a fixed range of camber
0.0-2.0 on Comfort
1.0-3.0 on Sports
2.0-4.0 on Racing
We then compare lap times and any patterns we noticed on the data logger
That should give a good overview of what is going on, right?
killerjimbag
(Banned)
- 4,018
- The Great White North
- abetterplaya
Thanks Hami, that's pretty much what I do. Most of my tunes are for endurance racing, not 1 or 2 lap cars. Most of my tunes are crap for the first lap or 2 then they get faster and tighter after tires warm up. That's my findings. I tend to tune for tire wear and grip. Go try Praiano's Ferrari Dino tune. Excellent car, made some adjustments and added more power and SS tires. Car is fantastic at Red Bull Ring.
killerjimbag
(Banned)
- 4,018
- The Great White North
- abetterplaya
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
We're not testing reality, we're testing camber in relation to tyre type in game. I don't like racing tyres on road cars either but we have to test them
killerjimbag
(Banned)
- 4,018
- The Great White North
- abetterplaya
My thoughts, use 3 cars all at same PP. FF, MR, RR. Stock, SS tires. Test 5 laps, change camber only rinse repeat.
killerjimbag
(Banned)
- 4,018
- The Great White North
- abetterplaya
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
I don't but others do so we need to test them. We're not testing the tyres for how real they are, we are testing to see how they are affected by camber.
- 12,639
- paracuru
- praiano63
My new FERRARI DINO 246 GT '71 have 2.0 rear camber. BUt , like i´ve told a few days ago , this is not to add more dynamic grip on this side.
Just to repeat what are my thoughts about 1.09 camber:
-Camber don´t add grip from 0.0 till 2.5 or 3.0 value.
-Above this limit there is a small lost of grip but not so big. It´s even possible to make a good lap time with 10.0 camber.
-10.0 camber don´t even reduce braking distance or acceleration performance at all. (This is very strange for a fixed camber isn´t it ??)
-I just use camber as an extra damper extension setting and it work very well for this. Same function same side front or rear.
-FF understeery cars lazy to turn will have a better eagerness and performance with front camber (till 3.0)
-MR and RR with a loose rear end will conserve a better safe fast line reducing rear weight transfer with rear camber on it (till 3.0)
- 3,848
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
My testing doesn't support this at all. My raking and acceleration are most definitely affected.
The real issue is the setup variability. I've found small angles work best. Anything above 2.0 just degrades lap times. However, I run very high toe angles. I tried no toe angle, and I definitely found a gain in corner speed (vs 0 camber). I ran my high toe angles with 0 camber and found a gain in performance (versus 0 toe). I put them together and found even more gain. The toe angles I use come at the cost of speed, so it's a trade off.
This is a good thing. It means that there is no "KILLER TUNE" so to speak.
- 12,639
- paracuru
- praiano63
Go on the speed track that i don´t remember the name, the long one with the tunel and banked turn.
take any car
put auto gear
accel full gas till 2000 meters line
Brake exactly over the 2000 meters line.
Check how many mark (strips on the road) you´re far from the next crossing line
finish your lap just to have a ghost. Then check your accel with the 2 diferents cambers.
use 10.0 camber and 0.00 cambr.
Then you will see what i´m talking about. It´s not a .... i feel that or this....
- 11,207
- Adrian, Mich.
- cargorat323
- CargoRatt
This is exactly what I have found to be true. My current WRS tune uses this very technique, high toe angles and camber up to 2.0....set my best time with that setup. Anything else, and I can't even come close to my ghost. I have also found that anything over 2.0 does in fact kill lap times, regardless of the tire being used. Camber seems to work best with higher toe angles, at least that's what I have found to be true so far and is the direction I have taken my tuning to. Also, I have to disagree with @praiano63 , camber most definitely affects braking distance, as well as stability. So yea, I completely agree with everything you have said here @Voodoovaj
- 12,639
- paracuru
- praiano63
(camber most definitely affects braking distance ) Sorry Do the braking test above and you´ll see that it don´t.
332i
(Banned)
- 855
- Morocco
- yadeegson
I don't use a gamepad, but try setting the brakes to the first extent that they begin to lock towards the end of heavy braking zones. Or just below the threshold, if you're not comfortable with that. The ABS will be cutting the brakes in and out anyways. You'll get more out of the brakes, if you're able to use them fully, without the ABS kicking in by adjusting the pressures. This would probably benefit DS3 users even more so, because I imagine it is tough to trail brake with a gamepad and you're doing all of your braking before you turn in anyways with it, most likely, right? Unless, you have the brakes set at incredibly low pressures, I suppose.
