10 reasons why Ferrari Challenge is better than GT5P

[danjama]

as there are some interesting new online events, i jumped back into gt5p last night, after weeks of only playing ferrari challenge. After adjusting to the completely different feel of the game, i enjoyed myself. But: Anyone thinking gt5p's physics are more "realistic" than fc is delusional.

It was more obvious than ever how understeery gt5p really is. In fc the tires grip the road & as the car corners, the car starts to "lean out" over the tires as the weight shifts to the outside, until the grip is overcome by the centrifugal force & the tire start to slip. Driving fast & in control in fc means constantly balancing the shifting center of gravity of the car.

In gt5p the car's over-riding tendency under cornering is to understeer - sliding sideways with almost no sense of the car's weight shifting. This is most obvious on the eiger track, where in spite of the extreme, downhill, off-camber corners, my golf gti stayed as rigid & flat on the road as an f1 car. No sense of weight transfer - the only thing required was to balance the understeer with throttle & steering. What a contrast with the brilliant & demanding challenge of driving the downhill sections of spa in fc.

Honestly, anyone who has not yet given fc a long, serious drive is really missing out...

+1

 

[danjama]

The cornering speeds have nothing to do with the vehicles being race cars, because theyre stupid in FC with every vehicle, which also includes road legal cars

LOL you clearly didnt drive the 550M that thing corners like a HOUSE!

I dont know how anyone can say that FC understeers too much, come round to my house and see how it is played properly! I am someone who went from GT5p to FC and back to GT5p so i notice the differences quite distinctively. Now dont get me wrong i love GT but i am completely backing biggles. When i first played prologue i was amazed at the advance compared to GT4, especially with the new improved "weight transfer". But FC just walks all over it in my humble opinion.

 

[Hun200kmh]

My Conclusion:
Weight shifting in GT5P is as good as in FC, with condition that ABS must be off or ABS=0. Nothing signifficantly wrong with the physics. It's just feel that is lacking, which is the understeer FFB - which does not really bother me. I would rather have more accurate oversteer FFB, which is far better in GT5P. No feel of weight transfer is simply because of too perfected ABS in the game. End.👍

Great post, a very interesting read. 👍

If I understood you correctly, this is your verdict:

1- you find both games equivalent in what concerns the simulation of wheight shifting (if in GT5P ABS=0).

2 - The difference comes from the lack of "physical feel" in GT5P (provided by the wheel) when the car understeers. That's why (I guess) you ask us to pay attention to tyre noise.

3 - However, because in your opinion the FFB feel when the car oversteers is better in GT5P than in FC, you finally give GT5P an "overall" edge over FC.

(if this isn't what your conclusion meant, sorry, english is not my native language and sometimes I may have wrong interpretations)

So, here's what I think of it:

1 - You may be right. I must say that I usually drive in GT5P with ABS set to 1, and didn't conduct any particular experiment, but even then, in GT5P I can see (most of all when I compare it to GT4) that wheight transfer is something that plays a significant part of what happens to the car when we are racing with it.

2 - I think you are right here also. In FC you "feel" understeer, in GT5P you just hear and see it. Let me pick a few quotes from myself in this same thread, a few pages back:

One simple example on how GT5P got it wrong and FC got it right:

When you start to lose grip in your front tyres (because you locked your brakes, because of understeering), everybody knows that the wheel of a car IRL becomes lighter. And that happens in FC, you can feel that the front tyres "detached" themselves from the tarmac (and it is a great help to deal with understeering) but not in GT5P, where the FF of the wheel remains constant, or even gets stronger when you start understeering and try to correct it.

And the fact is that last night I had promised a few friends that I would race them in GT5P (after a few days of FC-only). And I found out that the "feel" we get from the G25 in GT5P is very "filtered", therefore making it less pleasant. in FC, you grab your G25 and you feel you have a real car to drive around, you feel its weight, you feel if the front wheels are getting or losing grip, you feel the wheel heavier under braking, lighter on acceleration ... none of this you get in GT5P. All you get is the FF strengh you set, and it remains constant.

I don't get what you're trying to say. You can set FFB Strengh to your liking, if you think it is more realistic to have it "light", you just choose that setting.

However, be it strong or weak setting, how does the wheel behave and inform you about what's going on with the front wheels and the car as a whole?

There is one very simple example about this.

This is the situation: You come to a corner, brake, turn in, but the car understeers on entry. The front tyres lose grip - not completely, because the car still turns, a bit wider but it turns - and they glide a bit until the balance and momentum of the car allows them to grip again.


How does FFB implementation work in this very common situation?

a) in GT5P you hear the screeching noise of the tyres, you see in you screen that the car is understeering, but the FFB remains more or less constant, and if you turn the wheel a bit more the strengh of it will increase, even if the front tyres lost even a bit more of grip because you did it.

b) in FC, the wheel becomes suddenly lighter, almost detached, and when (eventually) the front tyres regain grip it also becomes suddenly heavier.


Pick your choice about what is more realistic. I don't care what others think of it, we're all entitled to our own opinions and "feel".

My point is just this: "FFB Strengh" settings can be changed. "FFB implementation" cannot be changed, so it is distinctive from one game to another. And "FFB implementation" in GT5P is very different from "FFB implementation" in FC.

I won't search more, I posted many times in this thread, but I think we both agree. You call us to hear the tyres because the wheel doesn't tell us anything about them.

3 - So, we come to number 3. And, I'm sorry to say, but I don't know why you think oversteer's FFB is better implemented in GT5P. There's no harm in each person getting a different "feel" from the wheel and the game but, again, I feel that in FC I get a very well recreated feel of oversteer ... from the wheel (we're not talking about the games simulating wheight transfer, you said they're equivalent and I don't argue that).

I'll ask you to do an experiment also. Pick any car from FC and go to Monza. Now, try to do the "esses" (I don't know the names) before the back straight with speed, not losing momentum. You come down from Lesmo and you have a left/right/left combination, where it is critical to have a good exit speed for the straight that follows. So, after the "first left", you hit the apex of the "right" and, if you did it well, from that point on you're flat out and that's how you do the "second left". In most cars, you'll reach the limit of grip and massive wheight transfer. When the car leans to the right, if you keep full throttle (you must, or the car will balance away into understeer and send you off to the right) you'll get out of there with a strong feel of oversteer (tyres not spinning, just pointing the front into the right direction).

Now, you can do all this in GT5P, of course (not in Monza, but in similar circumstances in any other track, let's say, exiting from Spoon in Suzuka, even if GT5P has a more tendency to understeer). But what does the wheel "tell" you about it? pretty much what it always does in GT5P, meaning, it modulates force feedback to a minimum when the car is moving in the same direction as the wheel is pointing, and increasing it when otherwise. That's what FFB gives you in GT5P.

But what do we get in FC? Well, even if we have the car almost straight, and the wheel pointed in the right direction (almost centered, with a slight pressure to the left because we want to avoid going over the rumble strip at the right), the wheel must remain with a firm grip on it, because the momentum of the car, the wheight of the car, everything else BUT where the car is going and the tyres are pointing ... is leaning to the right. So, the wheel is "wanting" to turn right ... heavily I must say.

This, of course, also happens in extreme oversteer at lower speeds. But where I think we see how well the FFB was implemented is in this "almost limit" situation. It shows a bit of it all, in a situation where considerable speed also comes into play.

So, I agree with 1 (both games simulate wheight transfer), I agree with 2 (FC is superior in providing wheel-understeer feedback), but I don't agree with 3, I think FC is also superior in providing wheel-oversteer feedback.

Sorry for a long post, but I thought yours deserved a bit more thought and consideration than what I could give with a a simple answer.

 

[G.T.Ace]

LOL you clearly didnt drive the 550M that thing corners like a HOUSE!

I dont know how anyone can say that FC understeers too much, come round to my house and see how it is played properly! I am someone who went from GT5p to FC and back to GT5p so i notice the differences quite distinctively. Now dont get me wrong i love GT but i am completely backing biggles. When i first played prologue i was amazed at the advance compared to GT4, especially with the new improved "weight transfer". But FC just walks all over it in my humble opinion.

I think its a pretty bad sign that you have to drive certain cars to see how realistic a game is. And i also didnt say the cars in FC understeer, theyre just way to easy to drive.

 

[wnffe]

So, I agree with 1 (both games simulate wheight transfer), I agree with 2 (FC is superior in providing wheel-understeer feedback), but I don't agree with 3, I think FC is also superior in providing wheel-oversteer feedback.

Sorry for a long post, but I thought yours deserved a bit more thought and consideration than what I could give with a a simple answer.

Good discussion indeed..👍

I will try and keep this one as short as possible...Lay man terminology this time...

The reason I believe GT5P provide better oversteer feedback is mostly because:

1) the accuracy of the weight transfer when ABS=0 is more refine in GT5P. FC somehow feels more simplified. Make the brake bias according to Scaff's guide on braking and it feels even better. For your info I use FFB=10..as max as I can to sense oversteer as quickly as possible.

2) It simulates as exactly as my previous RWD car on trackdays and especially during drifting sessions. It has made me believe it so much that I always feel it is damn accurate. Again with ABS=0. Believe it or not I learn drifting from GT5P and LFS and applied it excactly to my RL car. Be it clutch kick/ shift-lock/ feint or trail-brake drift 2nd and 3rd gear drifting works fine as it is in the game.

Now, saying that, I never drifted nor driven a Ferrari in real life. But using the same techniques, I can drift well all Ferraris in GT5P, most RWD cars in LFS, production car in I-Racing but not in FC. The FFB does not flow naturally at large slip angle hence countersteering free flow is somehow restricted. Not much wrong on its physics and oversteer FFB at low slip angle, just the oversteer FFB during large angle when countersteering. I have to give credit to GT5P on this one...

 

[Biggles]

I think its a pretty bad sign that you have to drive certain cars to see how realistic a game is. And i also didnt say the cars in FC understeer, theyre just way to easy to drive.

No, I think the point is that unlike GT5P, the majority of the cars in FC are race cars with a lot of grip & downforce & therefore they are capable of cornering very aggressively with minimal understeer. The "street cars" in FC (which the F50 technically, but barely, qualifies as ) are much slower through the corners, exhibit plenty of understeer & are definitely not "to easy to drive".

The lengthy discussions above all make some interesting detailed points, but I would summarize my view, quite simply like this:

GT5P has quite detailed physics but the FFB feel is lacking, which means the driver has to learn, through experience, how to balance the car while cornering. Last night I took my 550PP Clio onto the DR course (my first run in GT5P for several weeks). Going into the first high speed left hander the car just slid sideways into the corner until I eased off the throttle enough for the tires to hold the car & take me round the bend. At no time did I really feel the car's weight shift to the outside of the turn & no real feel of the tires struggling for grip - struggling to roll rather than slide.

In contrast, the FFB in FC always communicates a lot about what the tires & the center of gravity of the car are doing. I would concede that perhaps FC even exaggerates these aspects somewhat, in order to communicate something of the visceral feel of driving a car IRL. That may be part of the reason that FC could seem less "realistic" than GT5P. FC is more concerned with communicating the generic feel of driving a car fast, rather than the detailed, accurate modelling of each particular car. It would be nice if PD were able to take more of the feel of FC & introduce it into GT5.

 

[jjaisli]

Wnffe & Hun200kmh

Excellent and interesting discussion. 👍

After your post Wnffe, I wanted to go back into GT5P and try this for myself. But I just lacked the time last night and this morning I see Hun200kmh has already responded with his own findings. I'm still very curious and will have a go later today.

But one thing I did want to mention was that in the real world, turning ABS off should, under hard cornering, actually increase understeer. As the wheels stop turning and lose their ability to generate grip they become less able to counter the lateral weight which wants to carry the car off the track to the outside. So in a sense, shouldn't this actually decrease the feeling of weight transfer (at least while the car is understeering), because objects in motion tend to stay in motion and the balance wouldn't be centered again until the front tires regain grip?

I'm not attempting to argue the point, just looking for clarification in your observations when you're comparing ABS=0 with ABS=1.

 

[G.T.Ace]

@Biggles: Okay, for the last time, stop talking about race cars and non race cars, please, do yourself a favour. It is irrelevant if the cars are race cars or not! A 348 Challenge for example has not more downforce than a modern sportscar. A lot race cars are hard to drive because of the power they have. Saying a race car automatically has more grip is nonesense! It always belongs to the car itself. Of course a F430 Challenge will grip more than its street legal counterpart, but first: This doesnt mean that its easier to drive (especially not without traction control on) and second: This also doesnt mean that an older race car has the same traction, grip, downforce and so on.
And then dont forget to seperate race cars from eachother.
GT, Prototype, Open Wheeler, Touringcar, Stockcar etc.

It might be that the Force Feedback in FC is better, i have no idea so i wont say the opposite (i believe you there because a lot of people say that), but the FFB has nothing to do with the physics and how the car reacts on which input.

 

[Biggles]

Is not part of wnffe's point that drifting with RWD cars in GT5P works well? The understeery, slidey tendency of GT5P would seem to lend itself to drifting, because that's what you want a car to do when you're drifting - basically the opposite of what you want it to do when you're racing.

So last night I spent about 3 hours with GT5P racing online at DR 550 PP. After a few laps I began to get the hang of it again (in the Clio), turning times in the 2.01s & 2.02s (not great I know, but respectable & enough to be reasonably competitive).

Well, I really enjoyed it, & yes, the physics are very detailed & responsive to what you do with the throttle & steering (although a bit less impressive with the braking). However, going into the two critical points on the track - the big left-hander at the end of the first straight & the chicane at the end of the back straight) - I had to learn the braking points by trial & error, because the FFB just doesn't communicate where the edge of grip is in the same way as it does in FC.

In FC, when hurtling into the downhill corners at Spa, you can feel through the FFB when you have to back off the throttle because the grip is starting to go & you can feel when you can get back on the throttle because the weight of the car is re-balancing & the tire grip increasing.

That, in a nut-shell, is the difference between GT5P's & FC's physics - the feel of the FFB (something that, with regard to GTAce's comments, wouldn't come across, I suppose, with a pad). The physics in FC may be simplified - less complex & detailed than in GT5P - but you feel them more.

(I would be curious to know how the FFB in FC compares with the FFB in PC games like LFS & GTR2).

 

[G.T.Ace]

Yeah but this is exactly what im talking about.
Not FFB, not the feeling you have in your hands, because that arent the physics, this is what you call controls from the game.

 

[Biggles]

@ GTAce!

I have spent over 200 hours driving in FC & have driven all the cars - there is a huge variety in the handling characteristics of the various cars in FC (in spite of the fact that they are all Ferraris)!

As you appear to have only spent a few hours playing FC, there is no way you can have experienced the different feel of, say, the 250 LM, the 360 Modena & the 333SP. On the other hand, I have spent hundreds of hours playing GT5P, so I have a pretty good idea of the handling characteristics of most of the cars in GT5P. In any case, my point concerns to a large extent the FFB in the two games: as you appear to be using a pad, while I am using a G25, there is likely to be a big difference in our respective experiences...

 

[Christian_C]

There is region locking- FACT - Me and 2 friends wanted to play online together 2 of us live in the uk one in canada and the person in canada couldn't join our game and before you say its our connection it isn't as with many other games we have been able to connect to each other.

 

[JosVerstappen]

(I would be curious to know how the FFB in FC compares with the FFB in PC games like LFS & GTR2).

way better in LFS and GTR2 believe me, and also you can adjust it to your liking...

LFS, GTR2, GTR evo have the best force feedback of any sim I have played...

 

[Hun200kmh]

There is region locking- FACT - Me and 2 friends wanted to play online together 2 of us live in the uk one in canada and the person in canada couldn't join our game and before you say its our connection it isn't as with many other games we have been able to connect to each other.

Not trying to be picky or do "lawyer talk", but the only FACT I see in your post is that you and your friends couldn't connect. Everything else is is just assumption/conclusive arguing.

So, here's another FACT: I (PT) have raced FC online with Biigles (CAN), jjaisli (US), ENERGIYA (AUS), Zedux (BRASIL) and many other players from other regions of the world or, whatever region, playing the NTSC version of FC.

Take your conclusions.

 

[Biggles]

way better in LFS and GTR2 believe me, and also you can adjust it to your liking...

LFS, GTR2, GTR evo have the best force feedback of any sim I have played...

If that is true, it would lead me to believe that the FFB in GT5P - GT5 needs serious improvement to bring it closer to that level.

Spending a couple more hours at DR in GT5P has reinforced this impression:

GT5P's physics are good, it's the FFB that's lacking. Having not played GT5P for a number of weeks, the feel of the driving felt very odd to me at first - sort of the mirror image of what GT5P drivers feel when they first pick up FC. I could see that the responses of the car were there, but there was a lack of feel in the wheel. It comes back to what I have been saying: in GT5P you have to know what the car is going to do because you don't feel it in the same way as in FC. Taking that into account, I think it would be fair to say that the physics in GT5P are more complex & detailed than in FC.

Beyond the question of physics/FFB, what was nice about going back to GT5P online, was the great visuals, the ability to drive from cockpit view, & the lack of frame-rate issues when close racing.

What I miss from FC is the variety of tracks, the ability to set up the race with the cars, racers, & tracks you choose, the equality of racing the same cars (I haven't a clue when it comes to tuning in GT5P), the time differential clock & best lap time info (why don't they have this in GT5P?!), & reasonable drafting - why do they still have the exaggerated drafting effect in GT5P?! It means you always want to be second coming out of the last corner before the finishing straight...

 

[Biggles]

So, here's another FACT: I (PT) have raced FC online with Biigles (CAN), jjaisli (US), ENERGIYA (AUS), Zedux (BRASIL) and many other players from other regions of the world or, whatever region, playing the NTSC version of FC.

Not to mention the UK, Spain, Italy, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Finland etc. etc.

 

[fishfash]

Woah, I think I must have missed this thread

Looks like I have a long read

 

[wnffe]

Wnffe & Hun200kmh

Excellent and interesting discussion. 👍

After your post Wnffe, I wanted to go back into GT5P and try this for myself. But I just lacked the time last night and this morning I see Hun200kmh has already responded with his own findings. I'm still very curious and will have a go later today.

But one thing I did want to mention was that in the real world, turning ABS off should, under hard cornering, actually increase understeer. As the wheels stop turning and lose their ability to generate grip they become less able to counter the lateral weight which wants to carry the car off the track to the outside. So in a sense, shouldn't this actually decrease the feeling of weight transfer (at least while the car is understeering), because objects in motion tend to stay in motion and the balance wouldn't be centered again until the front tires regain grip?

I'm not attempting to argue the point, just looking for clarification in your observations when you're comparing ABS=0 with ABS=1.

We never stop learning.👍

This concept is simple..and I think any good race driver should understand this at his fingertips. Understeering with ABS=0 or ABS=1 under braking has nothing to do with the car.. It is the driver. A skill driver will always be good at braking with or without ABS.

Let say 2 drivers are doing at 100mph now.. At the end of the straight is hard right...

Driver A
Now he is braking... Weight of the car will shift forward.
While easing off the brake, he turns in to the right.
At this point..weight is still at the front.
the rear end of the car becomes light..
because he eases the brake and already turning in...weight also shift laterally. Because the rear is light and front heavier the momentum is carried through the corner and swings the rear..
Thus..he is oversteering (technique also known as trail braking)

Driver B
Now he is braking... Weight of the car will shift forward.
While braking, he turns in at the same time.
At this point..weight is still at the front.
Also at this point, front tyre is loaded..because as we know...tyre can only accept certain amount of input only...Assuming its a RWD car, if the front tyre loading make up to 100% then front tyre can only receive either [70%cornering+30% braking] or [20%cornering+80%braking] or others.
So when he brakes and turns at the same time, what he might be doing now is..20% cornering+80% braking..The front tyre will then concentrate on carrying the load of the braking more rather than turning...Thus he is understeering at corner entry..

My answer:
1)So..will it be more understeer with ABS=0? If I don't know the concept and I keep driving like driver B..I will keep understeering forever..Only ABS can help Driver B, because he likes to brake more rather than turning in hard corners.

2)Does ABS=0 gives more forward weight transfer than ABS=1?
In GT5P yes. Because the ABS=1 has somehow distribute some weight to the rear as well rather than mostly to the front.
But in real life, even a skilled driver doing threshold braking can brake shorter than with ABS on. Although only to a certain point.

👍

 

[Hereward]

I've nearly posted on this thread a few times now but allways thought better of it with the majority of my opinions already being posted by others. I have also noticed this "discussion" spilling out accross other sections of GTPlanet and being brought up as examples both negativly and posertivly. So here I go, most of this has already been said but I'll add my voice to there validity.
Both FC and GT5p are very good games, both have weak points and strong points, I would say of the 2 FC is better simply because of the amount of content it has over GT5p which is after all a taster for GT5. As far as physics go GT5p is more subtle than FC which is a seat of your pants experience and coming back to GT5p after it makes it seem tame in comparison, it's not, it's just simply more subtle with things like it's FFB, if you want to see full on FFB try Grid, pole dancing cars but amazing FFB sound and graphics (oh why did they muck up the physics)
I've had exhilerating races on GT5p and equaly exhilerating races on FC, I've just had more on FC, that in part is down to the handleing but more so down to private lobbys, there's nothing like racing your friends. Give me private lobbys on GT5p and voice chat online then theres no compertition, I fear though I wont see that for the next 10 months when GT5 lands.

 

[jjaisli]

My answer:
1)So..will it be more understeer with ABS=0? If I don't know the concept and I keep driving like driver B..I will keep understeering forever..Only ABS can help Driver B, because he likes to brake more rather than turning in hard corners.

2)Does ABS=0 gives more forward weight transfer than ABS=1?
In GT5P yes. Because the ABS=1 has somehow distribute some weight to the rear as well rather than mostly to the front.
But in real life, even a skilled driver doing threshold braking can brake shorter than with ABS on. Although only to a certain point.

👍

I finally had a chance to try this out Sunday but unfortunately my internet service was down much of the day and was unable to post.

Some observations:
- I hadn't played GT5P in nearly a month. It's amazing how quickly you get used to the particular driving style of one sim or the other and adapt accordingly.
- I had forgotten how easy it is (using a G25) to lock the brakes in GT5P when you turn ABS to 0.
- The visuals in GT5P, having not seen them in several weeks, just completely blow you away (all over again).
- When you play both games back to back with the purpose of looking with a critical eye it's very easy to spot negatives:
- the unrealistic throtte/brake proportioning in FC
- the ridiculous exaggerating effects of drafting in GT5P
- the cartoon like colors and (brown ) shades of the tracks in FC
- the way the cars ping-pong bounce off one another in GT5P
- the high levels of grip when driving through sand traps in FC

Rather than repeating much of what has already been said and discussed, I think I can effectively and briefly sum up my back to back comparison as such:
- There is a level of sophistication in the driving physics of GT5P that FC:TP does not match. At times you have a real sense in the working of the suspension geometry and you can certainly see and experience the transfer of weight. In comparison to FC, it's quite subtle (or perhaps FC is slightly exaggerated). I think both are closely matched. But in it's implementation, I think FC:TP has a superior FFB model in how it relates to understeer and the loss of grip. And as such, when using a wheel, it's probably 'easier' to sense the limits of adhesion in FC by the feeling in your wrists. So in a strictly visceral sense, I 'enjoy' driving FC a bit more.

 

[wnffe]

I think we should made this a poll, so this thread becomes important & bolder, hopefully somebody from PD will see and keep reminded of these problems..and take it seriously!!👍

 

[Biggles]

I finally had a chance to try this out Sunday but unfortunately my internet service was down much of the day and was unable to post.

Some observations:
- I hadn't played GT5P in nearly a month. It's amazing how quickly you get used to the particular driving style of one sim or the other and adapt accordingly.
- I had forgotten how easy it is (using a G25) to lock the brakes in GT5P when you turn ABS to 0.
- The visuals in GT5P, having not seen them in several weeks, just completely blow you away (all over again).
- When you play both games back to back with the purpose of looking with a critical eye it's very easy to spot negatives:
- the unrealistic throtte/brake proportioning in FC
- the ridiculous exaggerating effects of drafting in GT5P
- the cartoon like colors and (brown ) shades of the tracks in FC
- the way the cars ping-pong bounce off one another in GT5P
- the high levels of grip when driving through sand traps in FC

Rather than repeating much of what has already been said and discussed, I think I can effectively and briefly sum up my back to back comparison as such:
- There is a level of sophistication in the driving physics of GT5P that FC:TP does not match. At times you have a real sense in the working of the suspension geometry and you can certainly see and experience the transfer of weight. In comparison to FC, it's quite subtle (or perhaps FC is slightly exaggerated). I think both are closely matched. But in it's implementation, I think FC:TP has a superior FFB model in how it relates to understeer and the loss of grip. And as such, when using a wheel, it's probably 'easier' to sense the limits of adhesion in FC by the feeling in your wrists. So in a strictly visceral sense, I 'enjoy' driving FC a bit more.

👍

Your observations exactly match my own when I went back to GT5P over the last few days.

With regard specifically to the physics: the physics in GT5P are great, but the FFB is lacking compared to FC. In FC the FFB gives you more information about what the car is doing & how hard you can push it. IMO part of what makes GT5P "harder" is the limited information from the FFB. This means that you have to learn through repetition how hard you can push the car. This ties in with the fact that, typically, when playing GT5P online, you will run the same track over & over again in a session, learning how to perfect your racing line & braking. Nobody does this in FC - instead people will move from track to track in a session.

 

[Biggles]

wnffe: are you using the 911 wheel already? I'm curious to know how much it differs from the G25 with regard to the FFB in GT5P. I'm also interested to see how the pedal FFB will be implemented with the new "Clubsport" pedals. This seems to me to be an important element of the total driving experience that is currently missing, but I'm guessing it's not something that will inherently be "there" when you play the game, but is going to be dependent on what actual implementation existing, or future games, provide.

 

[wnffe]

👍
.......This means that you have to learn through repetition how hard you can push the car. This ties in with the fact that, typically, when playing GT5P online, you will run the same track over & over again in a session, learning how to perfect your racing line & braking. Nobody does this in FC - instead people will move from track to track in a session...............

wnffe: are you using the 911 wheel already? I'm curious to know how much it differs from the G25 with regard to the FFB in GT5P. I'm also interested to see how the pedal FFB will be implemented with the new "Clubsport" pedals. This seems to me to be an important element of the total driving experience that is currently missing, but I'm guessing it's not something that will inherently be "there" when you play the game, but is going to be dependent on what actual implementation existing, or future games, provide.

It is what it is on track driving..repetition..

Saying that, I play other games more than GT5P. Adaptability is more important..And I find that drifting in Gt5P is not about line driving..is much of car control...like rallying..and so many nice dancing manouvering you can watch in replays..

Anybody can do that also if they master car control..and of course, that won't be any better with repetition.

@Biggles: I'm using the old wireless Porsch 911 Turbo Wheel. Not the new one with club sport pedal..the FFB is stronger...& it feels more like my car...so I prefer it for racing..

But for drifting, I prefer G25..cause it feels raw!

 

[Biggles]

It is what it is on track driving..repetition..

That may be true, but I'm pretty sure there is no one IRL who has driven Suzuka or Fuji as many times as many GTPers!

As far as I know, the Clubsport pedals aren't available yet, but I don't understand if their FFB feature requires additional programming to be present in the game (I suppose it does) or would work somehow with existing games?

 

[wnffe]

That may be true, but I'm pretty sure there is no one IRL who has driven Suzuka or Fuji as many times as many GTPers!

As far as I know, the Clubsport pedals aren't available yet, but I don't understand if their FFB feature requires additional programming to be present in the game (I suppose it does) or would work somehow with existing games?

Yes..the Club Sport pedal isn't available yet and whoever ordered it will receive in March. The FFB on the pedal itself won't work with GT5P.

 

[Mad Matt]

Sorry to go back a point but..... having played GTR and GTR2 I found the FFB much worse than GT5P, or even GT4. I appreciate that this is just an opinion but I spent hours adjusting and could never get it to feel right. I tried two different wheels but in the end I have up.

Just to give a "second" opinion.

 

[Biggles]

Yes..the Club Sport pedal isn't available yet and whoever ordered it will receive in March. The FFB on the pedal itself won't work with GT5P.

So, do you know if there are any current games (console or PC) which the pedal FFB would work with? Would future games implement it? If not, what's the point of these pedals?

Sorry to go back a point but..... having played GTR and GTR2 I found the FFB much worse than GT5P, or even GT4. I appreciate that this is just an opinion but I spent hours adjusting and could never get it to feel right. I tried two different wheels but in the end I have up.

Just to give a "second" opinion.

I never had a problem with the FFB in GT4 at the time, but after discovering the FFB in FC, the FFB in GT5P seems weak & "under-informative". Others seem to think the FFB in GTR/2 is very good - I can't judge as I have never played PC sims, as I have always been a MAC user. Have you tried FC?

 

[wnffe]

So, do you know if there are any current games (console or PC) which the pedal FFB would work with? Would future games implement it? If not, what's the point of these pedals?

Unfortunately for me the clubsport pedal upgrade will not be compatible with my current 911 Wheel..

I quote this from their website, hope this answers you query:
www.911wheel.com

Compatibility

The Pedals comes with a USB cable to connect it directly to a PC. Most popular racing games support two separate controllers (wheel and pedal) including the following:

• iRacing
• rFactor
• Live for Speed
• Race07, STCC and GTR Evolution
• GTR and GTR2

You can use any racing wheel together with the ClubSport pedals.

The ClubSport pedals can also be directly connected to the following Porsche wheels:

• Porsche 911 Carrera wheel
• Porsche 911 Turbo S wheel (NOT 911 turbo)
• Porsche 911 GT3 RS wheel

 

[theewar]

Hi Folks,I thought i would add my pennies worth to this as i have had a fair amount of playing time on both games now.When it comes to gt5p there is no other driving game that can come near it,as far as visuals go,smooth,clean and some parts almost real looking.However,I love the dirty and used look of the tracks in Ferrari Challenge.Any thing out side of the track needs a lot more done to it,if it wants to get the visually stimulated gamer interested.The handling physics in both games are great.I use the g25 wheel,but i also used the six axis one night,and dare i say it,i could have been playing gt1 or gt2...The on line in gt5p is for the most part,spot on,very little lag,which in turn makes for some great racing.Ferrari Challenge on the other hand has a long way to go.Which to be fair is a shame,because its one of the best online racers out there,I know,neck stuck out,or up my own backside for that statement,i understand that when gt5 comes out in its full form,no other driving game out there shall see the light of day again in many a household,including mine.The only reason for me to play gt5p at the moment is the fact that there are those at GTP that have taken the time and energy to organise events that are a real Challenge,and because of the online capability.Ferrari Challenge offers more tracks,yes i know its a full game and gt5p is but a tease of things to come.FC gives you tracks from both F1and moto gp..and also the exclusive Fiorano circuit..and my favourite track silverstone.IMO..gt5p needs to add a new track or two so as to pick things up again.Ferrari Challenge needs to sort its online running out and how it looks, if it wants a bigger number of gt players to pick it up.I know it drives well,but looks can go a long way in getting a person to buy a game.I my self only bought it after i got some honest feedback about it from other gtp_members,up to then it was mainly the way it looked that put me off getting the game.If i could have a game that looks as good as gt,and had the handling physics of fc,well those of you that have played both know what i mean.