2009 Nissan GT-R - Zero tolerance for asshattery

[Dave A]

I'm sorry, but I can't see a single source link referrence to prove what you say. If this information is so readilly available, post a link. I'm not arguing that he said that, you are, it's upto you.

I don't mean any offence here, but some people seem to want to make a debate hard for themselves. You know where this information comes from, so post a link to prove these quotes. If your right, your right, if you don't post the links to prove what your saying then it doesn't matter if your right, because you've lost the debate right then and there. As I said, I'm not trying to wind you up here, if your right then I'd like to see the proof, to see whats real and whats media spin. If your right, then I'd argue the case with you, and believe me, there are a lot of reasons I can argue about when it comes to lap time discrepencies at the Ring. But I'm not fighting your corner for you and digging up the evidence myself.

 

[forza2.0]

This car will not go around the ring in under 7 mins 50 secs unless it has semi racing tires. It weighs something like 1700kg and only has 480hp. Nissan and the GTR name just generates hype.

 

[Dave A]

And you know that as fact because? I'd be suprised if the GT-R wasn't under 7'50. 7'30 is a big, big stretch. But looking at cars that occupy the 7'40-7'50 bracket, 7'50 is well within reach imo.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

I'm sorry, but I can't see a single source link referrence to prove what you say. If this information is so readilly available, post a link. I'm not arguing that he said that, you are, it's upto you.

I don't mean any offence here, but some people seem to want to make a debate hard for themselves. You know where this information comes from, so post a link to prove these quotes. If your right, your right, if you don't post the links to prove what your saying then it doesn't matter if your right, because you've lost the debate right then and there. As I said, I'm not trying to wind you up here, if your right then I'd like to see the proof, to see whats real and whats media spin. If your right, then I'd argue the case with you, and believe me, there are a lot of reasons I can argue about when it comes to lap time discrepencies at the Ring. But I'm not fighting your corner for you and digging up the evidence myself.

i didnt see links for all the other claims in which they said it wasnt running slicks did you? im not asking you to fight my corner i have supplied my proof.have you even watched the video?

 

[Dave A]

If you mean the video YSSMAN posted, yes. With all respect, your the one who raised the claim that it ran with slicks, the argument is yours to prove, not everyone elses to defend.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

If you mean the video YSSMAN posted, yes. With all respect, your the one who raised the claim that it ran with slicks, the argument is yours to prove, not everyone elses to defend.

so you will have noticed my points of suspect on the video? and you will have seen the post were it is quoted that the test driver said it was running on cut slicks? you will have noticed in the first sentence it says where the quote is from?

yet somehow you seem to be agreeing with Leonidae yet he hasnt posted links to his sources has he?

 

[Leonidae]

"Mizuno suggested the GT-R could get anywhere from 7:44 on up, with most laps coming in between 7:55 and 7:58."

Saying that if the chief engineer said it could only go 7:44 and up then thats the best it can do. Well as most of us know he made this comment over a month ago. Heres what he said yesterday:

"Mizuno claimed a time of 7minutes 38 seconds, compared with 7:43 for a Porsche 911 GT3 and 7:32 for a Carrera GT, but he was anxious to point out that there had been "two wet patches on the circuit." Indeed, he mentioned the "wet patches" so many times that you wondered why Nissan simply hadn't waited for a dry day. Mizuno reckoned that a time of around 7:30 should have been possible in the dry, but that going much faster would have required hand-cut slicks, which isn't "real world." Bizarrely, Nissan admitted to having different test drivers for different lapping. While Chief Test Driver Toshio Suzuki operates in the 7:30-7:40 range, his right-hand man is a 7:40-7:50 man."

From the video it looks like factory RE070 tires going on. Unless of course Nissan shot the video of one set then ran back inside to put on the slicks. and these quotes are from magazines that have been doing these "leaked" test drives..

 

[Dave A]

doesnt look like theres tread on the tyres at 38 seconds in......gotta love slicks.

nissan also claimed 7:59 for the R34 gtr yet a couple of below average german guys,Walter Rohl and Hans Stuck i think they are called out only do 8:30's.go figure.

First of all, you can't tell if thoes tyres are slicks or not, you just can't tell.

too dark yes very convenient dont you think? and you would still be able to make out the tread at the top of the wheel where the light is but you cant, and since when did street tyres have white writing on the side?



www.google.com

The lettering on the side looks likle it's been put there by the engineers, not like manufacturers lettering. As for seeing the tread, if the video was decent quality then you might have a case, as it stands, inconclusive is the best you can do.

no in your first statement he did not say it wasnt cut slicks which he did the time in and in that statement he says with cut slicks on a fully dry track it could do 7:30 but with the cut slicks in the damp it did 7:38.

I see no source link for this.

Then we have two conflicting quotes, this one...

HONED AT THE 'RING

GTR chief engineer Kazutoshi Mizuno told PistonHeads that his baby had covered over 3000 miles at the Nordschleife and avoided other circuits as they were deemed 'too easy'.

Nissan's original target was to beat the 911 Turbo at the 'ring but they ended up worrying the Porsche Carrera GT.

They didn't beat the GT's 7min 32sec lap time, but got a 7.38 in semi-wet conditions.

'We used cut slick tyres' said Mizuno.

'I was not interested in full slick times as this bears no resemblance to a road tyre. 1.2G of force was being pulled in wet and over 2 in dry'.

Which clearly say's they used cut slicks, and this one...

"Mizuno claimed a time of 7minutes 38 seconds, compared with 7:43 for a Porsche 911 GT3 and 7:32 for a Carrera GT, but he was anxious to point out that there had been "two wet patches on the circuit." Indeed, he mentioned the "wet patches" so many times that you wondered why Nissan simply hadn't waited for a dry day. Mizuno reckoned that a time of around 7:30 should have been possible in the dry, but that going much faster would have required hand-cut slicks, which isn't "real world." Bizarrely, Nissan admitted to having different test drivers for different lapping. While Chief Test Driver Toshio Suzuki operates in the 7:30-7:40 range, his right-hand man is a 7:40-7:50 man."

Which clearly implies the opposite.

This is obviousely a case of misinterpretation though which one is missinterpreted now becomes the subject of debate. We can argue the case all day and all night. He either used production spec tyres or he didn't, but you don't have, or have presently not supplied anything to prove he did.

I'm on the side of the facts, I'm not saying your totally wrong, I'm just saying you have made the claim and you don't have any proof.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

There is no "source" for the second quote as it was "leaked" where as the one i posted was a quote from the test driver which i would think would be more reliable than something that has been leaked.

if it was on RE070's then you would have seen little slits at the top of the tyre but again in the video you cant and the white letters on the side of the tyre are imprinted rather than written on.Iirc BMI fitted RE070's to an impreza(s204?) when racing it against a Murcielago and a Z06 and it won (just) but i would like to think that as it was tsukuba that it didnt give the lambo or Z06 much of a chance so does that mean the impreza will do the nurburgring in 7:38? doubtful.

Theres also the fact the video is showing a pre-production prototype and not the production model,which again means the car would have more power and less weight than the production car.

so in all can a skyline do a 7:38? probably

can i showroom skyline do 7:38? very very doubtful.

 

[YSSMAN]

so in all can a skyline do a 7:38? probably

can a showroom skyline do 7:38? very very doubtful.

Its my guess as to that being so. The "standard" non-Evo model GT-R (remember, there are three trim levels, only two will be offered worldwide) won't likely be able to lap the 'Ring in that amount of time. Granted, I may be mistaken, but the general laws of power, weight, suspension tune, and tire choices seem to have the odds stacked against those "lesser" models...

 

[harrytuttle]

Why did they change the look? It's uglier than the previous design.

The dark vertical sections on the front actually looked good, Alice Cooper references be damned. The rest of the car looks fine, though. It certainly looks its weight, though, but light weight was never a Skyline priority.

This current face isn't so terrible, but it certainly doesn't work as a "more upscale" look that Nissan says they were going for. It just looks clumsy and a bit bulbous. I suppose it helps with the low cD, but it's not as though they couldn't have added those black sections back in to break up the large expanses of plastic rather than some little bumpouts.

Major kudos to Nissan for finally realizing that black covers over engines look like poop. 👍

 

[forza2.0]

And you know that as fact because? I'd be suprised if the GT-R wasn't under 7'50. 7'30 is a big, big stretch. But looking at cars that occupy the 7'40-7'50 bracket, 7'50 is well within reach imo.

It could do with semi slicks like the CSL did, but on standard road tyres it doesnt have a chance. Just looking at other cars with a similiar weight to the GTR is a good indication nissan stuck some super super sticky tires when tehy did the 7 38 min lap.

Im with Holden on this one. He is using common sense. Just because the GTR has some sort of mystical status doesnt mean it has the ability to do wonders round the 'ring. Mercedes got their prototype SL black series round the 'ring in 7 mins 37 or something ridicolously quick like that but then its got much more power. Although all the seasoned Merc fans admit that the finished product wont lap the 'ring that quickly simply because the protoypes are usually always quick a bit quicker.

The GTR weighs over 1700kg and only has 480PS. Its not gonna do 7 mins 38 on road legal tires. As if some porky GT car could really beat the worlds best.

 

[superberkut]

It could do with semi slicks like the CSL did, but on standard road tyres it doesnt have a chance. Just looking at other cars with a similiar weight to the GTR is a good indication nissan stuck some super super sticky tires when tehy did the 7 38 min lap.

Im with Holden on this one. He is using common sense. Just because the GTR has some sort of mystical status doesnt mean it has the ability to do wonders round the 'ring. Mercedes got their prototype SL black series round the 'ring in 7 mins 37 or something ridicolously quick like that but then its got much more power. Although all the seasoned Merc fans admit that the finished product wont lap the 'ring that quickly simply because the protoypes are usually always quick a bit quicker.

The GTR weighs over 1700kg and only has 480PS. Its not gonna do 7 mins 38 on road legal tires. As if some porky GT car could really beat the worlds best.

Wasn't the STOCK Skyline GT-R the first production car to run under eight minutes at the Nurburgring? Its power-to-weight ratio was less formidable, at 9:1018767lb/hp, while the new GT-R is 7.7916667lb/PS. If a 1997 Skyline GT-R can do that, surely the new GT-R can do better, cut tires or not? The Nissan engineers would also be very idiotic to not improve their own car...

 

[Leonidae]

we can't say anything for sure before independent tests. and isn't it a law of nature, that there will always be something faster, more powerful, heavier, lighter etc etc that will beat the previous record holders? 💡

funny thing is, that if it would had been Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Chevrolet etc etc no-one would doubt the laptime..

you biased snobs.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Wasn't the STOCK Skyline GT-R the first production car to run under eight minutes at the Nurburgring?

yep but again those were derestricted or/with cut slicks as well.

 

[superberkut]

yep but again those were derestricted or/with cut slicks as well.

So I stand corrected.

So, shouldn't the Skyline be capable of doing this on cut slicks?

Oh wait, I just realized my argument went:

 

[superberkut]

we can't say anything for sure before independent tests. and isn't it a law of nature, that there will always be something faster, more powerful, heavier, lighter etc etc that will beat the previous record holders? 💡

funny thing is, that if it would had been Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Chevrolet etc etc no-one would doubt the laptime..

you biased snobs.

Double post time! (save Holdenhvsgtr) (Nope, not this time!)

Wow, Leonidae, I just thought it was interesting to debate this... Sorry, pulling out.

 

[forza2.0]

Wasn't the STOCK Skyline GT-R the first production car to run under eight minutes at the Nurburgring? Its power-to-weight ratio was less formidable, at 9:1018767lb/hp, while the new GT-R is 7.7916667lb/PS. If a 1997 Skyline GT-R can do that, surely the new GT-R can do better, cut tires or not? The Nissan engineers would also be very idiotic to not improve their own car...

I take it you havent read the whole thread as I already addressed that. Alot of car manufacturers hype up their cars performance when it comes to the 'ring, and the japanese are probably the biggest culprits.

No stock GT-R apart from the z-tune has got anywhere near 8 mins let alone under 8 mins.

I think the only car that weighs around the same as the GT-R but had like 600hp and did the 'ring in under 8 mins is the SL AMG, but that was on semi racing tires.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

funny thing is, that if it would had been Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Chevrolet etc etc no-one would doubt the laptime..

you biased snobs.

no biased at all but for a car to lap 7:55(which i believe it can do) for about 95%(?) of its testing then suddenly be doing 7:38's doesnt raise a question mark at all then?

 

[forza2.0]

no biased at all but for a car to lap 7:55(which i believe it can do) for about 95%(?) of its testing then suddenly be doing 7:38's doesnt raise a question mark at all then?

Agree with this, especially if the car also weighs over 1700kg, has only 480PS and the manufacturer has a known history for being a tad inventive/over ambitious.

 

[Leonidae]

yep but again those were derestricted or/with cut slicks as well.

and german cars, despite being "restricted" to 255km/h (155mph), usually reached 275-280km/h (170mph)... so yeah, fair play is fair play..

 

[forza2.0]

and german cars, despite being "restricted" to 255km/h (155mph), usually reached 275-280km/h (170mph)... so yeah, fair play is fair play..

If you keep the car in its second to highest gear it often by passes the limiter for some reason. But even if they are derestricted it makes it a fairer test. You can opt to get teh car derestricted from the factory these days.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

and german cars, despite being "restricted" to 255km/h (155mph), usually reached 275-280km/h (170mph)... so yeah, fair play is fair play..

depends when you want the limiter to cut in,in an rs4 for example it can do 170mph in 5th but the 155mph limiter then kicks in in 6th gear so it can do that from the factory.if nissan want to limit it in 5th gear then thats up to them but derestricting would then not show what the real showroom car can do.

 

[McLaren]

we can't say anything for sure before independent tests. and isn't it a law of nature, that there will always be something faster, more powerful, heavier, lighter etc etc that will beat the previous record holders? 💡

funny thing is, that if it would had been Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Chevrolet etc etc no-one would doubt the laptime..

you biased snobs.

Probably because these companies would actually have a car that would appropiately seem capable of the time, and probably wouldn't be saying, "We used Cut-Slicks", "No, we didn't use Cut-Slicks", or "We don't know what we used, and neither do you...but the car is fast."

 

[Joey D]

Autoblog has posted an article and photos about the technical data for the car:

The new Nissan GT-R is an engineering playground. We hope to get our chance to play with it soon, but until then, we get pictures. Luckily, Nissan has released detailed images of the GT-R drivetrain and suspension. These reveal some of the alterations made in the GT-R design from prior models. One of the more significant changes is the placement of the transmission. The dual-clutch transmission and combination transfer case sit at the back of the car, coupled to the rear differential (that makes it a transfermissiondiffcase). It makes for more balanced weight distribution with the transmission, rear differential and transfer case counterbalancing the weight of the engine and front differential.

The turbochargers have also changed from Garrett units used in past GT-R models to IHI, a Japanese-owned company. The turbine housings (aka hot side) of the turbochargers are a combined casting with the engine exhaust manifolds. Most likely this is done to save space and for emissions reasons to ensure the catalytic converters are as close to the turbocharger outlets as possible. Each turbocharger is followed by two catalytic converters, making for a total of four. Two intercoolers are also installed, as opposed to one with two inlets, keeping the charged air for each bank of cylinders constantly separated. This is most likely done to ensure precise metering of air.

[Source: Nissan]
While staring at pictures can reveal a lot of information about the GT-R it does not provide much input into the control systems. The electronics integrated into the GT-R such as the drive-by-wire throttle bodies, dual-clutch automatic transmission and electronic controlled front differential have the potential for Nissan to create a traction control system beyond any other in existence. The potential is also there for the ATTESA all wheel drive system. In previous models it involved only feedback from wheel speed sensors, throttle position sensor and g-sensor, but this time around much more data is available to be fed into the computer controlling the torque split to the front wheels.

Check out the Nissan GT-R details gallery to view the technical shots. Also hit up the other GT-R galleries to see the complete package.

Gallery: http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2008-nissan-gt-r-details/

 

[Tornado]

Ah, once again an argument started by holdenhsvgtr because he has trouble not jumping to conclusions based on misquotes and "the obvious truth." So first of all, holdenhsvgtr? Either cite a link of proof for every one of you claims (and a link, not "search Google" or "uncited Nissan quote") or shut up.

No stock GT-R apart from the z-tune has got anywhere near 8 mins let alone under 8 mins.

Its so funny because it is false. The R33 (which remember, is the bad one) did under 8 minutes. Stock, and not NiSMO.

I think the only car that weighs around the same as the GT-R but had like 600hp and did the 'ring in under 8 mins is the SL AMG, but that was on semi racing tires.

The SL65 AMG is also a top heavy convertible that weighs about 500 pounds more. Without RWD. Which kinda blows apart your argument about, you know, PWR.

yep but again those were derestricted or/with cut slicks as well.

I love how you haven't proved this. In any way. Or, for that matter, any of your other arguments.

Theres also the fact the video is showing a pre-production prototype and not the production model,which again means the car would have more power and less weight than the production car.

Like hell it does. Do you even know why they make pre-production prototypes? Because you seem to be woefully ignorant of the reasoning.

if nissan want to limit it in 5th gear then thats up to them but derestricting would then not show what the real showroom car can do.

Except, ah, the GT-R wasn't going to be restricted. So that is irrelevant.

Just looking at other cars with a similiar weight to the GTR is a good indication nissan stuck some super super sticky tires when tehy did the 7 38 min lap...







...The GTR weighs over 1700kg and only has 480PS. Its not gonna do 7 mins 38 on road legal tires. As if some porky GT car could really beat the worlds best.

Hey, check this out:

Car.                                     Lap            PWR
Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale           7:56         3.001
Honda NSX-R                              7:56         4.379


Nissan Skyline GT-R (R33)                7:59         5.294
Porsche 911 Turbo (996)                  7:56         3.619

Omigod Japanese beating the worlds best? Blasphemy. And I wonder, if the GT-R is a "Porky GT car" then why in hell are you referencing a Mercedes anything? And why isn't Porsche on the rack? And regardless, if holdenhsvgtr's laptime claims are true, than 7:38 for this car on hand cut slicks would be very slow. Why are you so deadset against the GT-R's time? Because it beat a car that it has way superior weight dynamics to? The Porsche in itself is a wonder to be as fast as it is. The fact that a car can be faster yet heavier shouldn't be too amazing considering the weight distribution differences alone.

i know how the forum works just hate the laziness of some people that cant be bothered to go to google and type skyline laptime nurburgring then enter.

And I hate people who make outlandish claims and then say "prove me wrong." A link for every single one of those "times." Or shut up.

You can opt to get teh car derestricted from the factory these days.

So I expect you to not bring up cheater slicks again, if what holdenhsvgtr said is true:

i remember cut slicks on the skyline options list,it was right under the saturn V booster engine wasnt it?

Because that means that every time you whined about "cut slicks" it was irrelevant because a car with cut slicks was still stock from the factory. So all Nissan needs to do to shut you up, is put cut slicks on the car as an option. And that's assuming this pre-pro car is on cut slicks, which you haven't proved.

no biased at all but for a car to lap 7:55(which i believe it can do) for about 95%(?) of its testing then suddenly be doing 7:38's doesnt raise a question mark at all then?

At the Nurburgring? No it doesn't. That could be fricking changing the power distribution and making the car understeer less for all we know. You cannot prove any of you allegations. You can raise questions, yes. And I understand your point. But you cannot change these suspicions into fact without undeniable proof, which is something you simply do not have. At all.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Ah, once again an argument started by holdenhsvgtr because he has trouble not jumping to conclusions based on misquotes and "the obvious truth." So first of all, holdenhsvgtr? Either cite a link of proof for every one of you claims (and a link, not "search Google" or "uncited Nissan quote") or shut up.


Hey, check this out:

Car.                                     Lap            PWR
Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale           7:56         3.001
Honda NSX-R                              7:56         4.379


Nissan Skyline GT-R (R33)                7:59         5.294
Porsche 911 Turbo (996)                  7:56         3.619

wheres your link for that then? if i post stuff without linking,and as leon did as well,he posted several things which werent link as they were "leaked".

Its so funny because it is false. The R33 (which remember, is the bad one) did under 8 minutes. Stock, and not NiSMO.

again did you research? im guessing not as if you did you would have discovered that the car for that time was admitted to being destricted(with the rumour that it was running slicks).autocar in 1997 took a STOCK (restricted 155mph and on street tyres) with a pro driver and couldnt get anything better than 8:30,

Why are you so deadset against the GT-R's time?

Because that means that every time you whined about "cut slicks" it was irrelevant because a car with cut slicks was still stock from the factory. So all Nissan needs to do to shut you up, is put cut slicks on the car as an option. And that's assuming this pre-pro car is on cut slicks, which you haven't proved.


At the Nurburgring? No it doesn't. That could be fricking changing the power distribution and making the car understeer less for all we know. You cannot prove any of you allegations. You can raise questions, yes. And I understand your point. But you cannot change these suspicions into fact without undeniable proof, which is something you simply do not have. At all.

i am not deadset on not believing the gt-r's time i was simply stateing that for almost all of the cars testing it was lapping in the 7:55 there or there abouts then around a week or so before the car is launch suddenly it does a 7:38 wouldnt you be abit suspect of why that is? if it was so close to launch why would they suddenly change no doubt which would have been quite a number of things to sudden make it so much faster.

i posted an article in which the nissan test driver who made the lap in which he clearly said they used cut slicks,nothing between the lines his exact words were "we used cut slick tyres" so thats a lie on my part how?

 

[Joey D]

wheres your link for that then? if i post stuff without linking,and as leon did as well,he posted several things which werent link as they were "leaked".

Agreed this really should apply to anyone making time claims.

 

[Tornado]

wheres your link for that then?

Here you go.

again did you research?

I shouldn't have to. You are making the claims, you tell me.

im guessing not as if you did you would have discovered that the car for that time was admitted to being destricted(with the rumour that it was running slicks).autocar in 1997 took a STOCK (restricted 155mph and on street tyres) with a pro driver and couldnt get anything better than 8:30,

You yourself posted a lap of 8:01 from what you say was a stock R33. I can't imagine derestricting it and putting it on slicks would shave only 2 seconds off the time.
Furthermore, if the new GT-R proto was on slicks, why oh why was it exactly as fast as the far less powerful R32 GT-R that you posted to also be on slicks?

i am not deadset on not believing the gt-r's time i was simply stateing that for almost all of the cars testing it was lapping in the 7:55 there or there abouts then around a week or so before the car is launch suddenly it does a 7:38 wouldnt you be abit suspect of why that is?

No, because I know how fickle the Nurburgring can be in places. I understand your suspicions, but not your dead-set pursuit of proving Nissan to be up to something.

if it was so close to launch why would they suddenly change no doubt which would have been quite a number of things to sudden make it so much faster.

Something that you have 100% no proof of at all. If the track was, say, Tsukuba, than we would know it was something major. But the 'Ring? That could have been changing the downforce angle for all we know, or something similarly simple and easy to do.

i posted an article in which the nissan test driver who made the lap in which he clearly said they used cut slicks,nothing between the lines his exact words were "we used cut slick tyres" so thats a lie on my part how?

To which multiple people posted articles that said the contrary.
Besides, if Nissan offers cut slicks as an option as you contend they have in the past, then none of your argument has any relevance whatsoever.

 

[Joey D]

Here you go.

A GTP thread doesn't count, you really should show exactly where you got your information from. Preferably a creditable source. If you expect others to show sources you should do the same.

I shouldn't have to. You are making the claims, you tell me.

Actually yes you should have to, like I said if you require something for other you should have to prove the same claims. Look I think Holdenhsvgtsr should have to prove his claims as well but that doesn't automatically let you off the hook either.