2009 Nissan GT-R - Zero tolerance for asshattery

[YSSMAN]

Which begs the question:

Why are the race-car-derived Challenge Stradale and GT3 RS easy to drive on the road and the not-quite-as-race-car-derived Corvette Z06 not?

(though as I pointed out earlier, the GT3 RS came before the RSR, so actually the race car is road-car-derived)

Its a good question and I don't have a good answer. My guess is that people would likely point to the suspension and tire choices, but then again, the updates for the MY08 models have apparently "fixed" a lot of these previous issues.

But even then, considering prices and whatnot, we'd likely be calling up the ZR-1 once that hits the streets. God only knows what that will be like...

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> $74K for a 997 Turbo whooping performance is a solid best buy in my opinion. It really does make you think twice about getting that M6 or M3.

-> Although I like the Z06 to the fullest, I patch that car on a different class compared to the GT-R. And high-almighty ZR-1 is more thousands more than the GT-R .

-> I still do love the 997 Turbo. So after the GT-R, I'd get a 997 Turbo Cabrio.

 

[McLaren]

The M6 isn't in the same category as the GT-R, so not sure why anyone would bother mentioning it. As for the M3, you're talking about a car that's down almost 100 horses, and battles Audi & Mercedes, not Chevrolet or Nissan.

 

[Joey D]

Why not? The M6 is a 500hp coupe with a 0-60 in 4.3 seconds.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Vehicles/M/M6Coupe/

 

[McLaren]

Why not? The M6 is a 500hp coupe with a 0-60 in 4.3 seconds.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Vehicles/M/M6Coupe/

But the M6 isn't built to compete with the Z06, at least not to my knowledge. It may end up a competitor, but I don't honestly see it as one.

 

[Div is back]

You forgot luxury before coupe.

The M6 is not in the same market as the GTR, not at all.

 

[Joey D]

Does it really matter if the car is solely built to compete with another car? I mean if the performance is similar I don't see why they can't be compared. The SRT-4 wasn't built to compete with Mustangs but go over to any SRT-4 boards and you'll hear them saying how much better their car is because it beat one or it's cheaper.

 

[Keef]

Which begs the question:

Why are the race-car-derived Challenge Stradale and GT3 RS easy to drive on the road and the not-quite-as-race-car-derived Corvette Z06 not?

(though as I pointed out earlier, the GT3 RS came before the RSR, so actually the race car is road-car-derived)

Who said the Z06 isn't easy to drive? It's decently comfy, has room for groceries, has enough torque to go off from a light in second like it will in first, and has gears tall enough to stay there all the way from here to Columbus without shifting even once. Good gas mileage, air conditioning, heated seats, the whole nine yards. And you can actually get in and out of it.

 

[Div is back]

Does it really matter if the car is solely built to compete with another car? I mean if the performance is similar I don't see why they can't be compared. The SRT-4 wasn't built to compete with Mustangs but go over to any SRT-4 boards and you'll hear them saying how much better their car is because it beat one or it's cheaper.

Yes it does matter.
Go to any Supra website and they'll say they can smoke Ferraris...your logic is flawed, unless you want to compare the Ariel Atom to an Enzo.

 

[Joey D]

If you say so, in my opinion if the cars have similar performance they are comparable.

 

[niky]

I think we can consider the M6 a GTR competitor. As a Z06 competitor, not really.

Remember, the GTR is slated to be Nissan's halo car. It'll be speed + luxury, so it should have more in common with an M6 or Porsche than a Z06.

Like I've opined earlier (some 1,000 pages ago... plus or minus 999...), people looking at a Z06 or a Viper are not likely to cross-shop with the GT-R (my Uncle bought a Viper, and he didn't look at anything else but the Z06), but people looking at the GT-R may possibly cross-shop with the Z06, M6, 911, etcetera... which is why Nissan feels particularly compelled to tout its performance ability.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

Generally speaking, I think that the second row of seats takes the GTR out of the Corvette's market anyway but what do I know?

Honestly, the GTR is more 911 Turbo than 911 GT3. The M6 or even the AMG variants of the SL series are also appropriate comparitives. The GTR's selling points are going to be speed, technology, and luxury.

You could even make the case that the GTR is a Japanese DB9. It's a great GT car, it does everything a GT car should do. Just don't call it a sports car.

 

[Kent]

Generally speaking, I think that the second row of seats takes the GTR out of the Corvette's market anyway but what do I know?

Honestly, the GTR is more 911 Turbo than 911 GT3. The M6 or even the AMG variants of the SL series are also appropriate comparitives. The GTR's selling points are going to be speed, technology, and luxury.

You could even make the case that the GTR is a Japanese DB9. It's a great GT car, it does everything a GT car should do. Just don't call it a sports car.

I'd say right on except your own logic would put the AMG SLs out of the game (only 2 seats in those, which is what kills the Corvette comparison). Further, I'm not sure about the DB9 but I get the feeling that's a two seater as well.

I hear ya on the GT car but to calling the GT-R something other than a sportscar is something I just can't do.
Basically, the GT-R is a hardcore stripped out, supped up version of the normal GT350/ G37. With that being the case you've almost got to consider it a sportscar and not a GT car.

Of course, much like you... I'm quick to say "what do I know"?

 

[Layla's Keeper]

Problem with the "stripped out and souped up" qualifier is that, by that logic, we can start calling the 421SD Pontiac Catalinas sports cars.

On top of that, the GTR is hardly decontented from the base model Infinitis. In fact, if the press release is anything to go by it has MORE standard luxury features than a fully loaded G37. Furthermore, while I can't find a weight for the G37, the GTR tips the scales at a sturdy 3,800lbs. Unless the G37 is a ridiculous porker of a car, then the GTR really hasn't stripped out much.

Fact of the matter is, the GTR has never been a sports car. Its natural habitat - ever since the first 2.0L straight-six "Hakosuka" wrung its neck 'round Fuji - is saloon racing. The AWD Skyline we know and love originally kicked the tar out of Jaguar XJS's and E30generation M3's at Bathurst, instead of going toe to toe with the Porsches and Ferraris of its day.

The Skyline GTR is one of the world's finest coupes. I'll never go against that. But being one of the world's finest coupes, just like being one of the world's finest sedans or hatches, does not give you the title sports car.

 

[niky]

Of course, the definition is a whole other kettle of fish...

But that's the whole thing... the older GT-Rs were revered as fire-breathing monsters, but in actuality, as per tester's reviews, stock GT-Rs were actually great Grand Tourers, or could be considered as Sport Grand Tourers...

In comparison, the 911 wears the Sport GT, Supercar and the Sportscar taq depending on which model you buy.

The new GT-R is going to be sold as a Sports GT that just happens to have performance comparable to a supercar or sportscar. But then, that's what the argument is about, isn't it?

The upshot of all of this is that the new GT-R is slower than some other road cars and quicker than quite a lot of other ones around a 6 yard wide tarmac snake in the Black Forest. Quite why this is still of import a thousand posts down the line confuses me.

+1000+++

 

[YSSMAN]

Dunno... If I was looking at a GT-R for the $70-85K it will likely sticker for here in the US, I'd likely consider the BMW M6 and Jaguar XKR while I'm at it. Oh, and the Porsche 911 Carrera 4S. Probably the Mercedes CLK63 too. They're all dramatically different in their own ways, but competitors nevertheless... Fast, luxurious sports coupes with room for four(ish), and a healthy sticker price while they're at it.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

The new GT-R is going to be sold as a Sports GT that just happens to have performance comparable to a supercar or sportscar. But then, that's what the argument is about, isn't it?

While I agree that that's a good definition of the GT-R, my mind automatically goes sour with it because that's also how the SLR is described . But yes, much like how the STI/Evo demolish cars costing far more than them does not make them sports cars, the fact that the GT-R is incredibly fleet of foot doesn't make it a supercar. A very accomplished sports GT is no bad thing.

YSS, while I'm a fan of the Bimmer, Jag, and Porsche, engine aside, I don't understand the mention of the CLK. Sure, it is in the same class, but from what I understand it just doesn't compete with any of them. Plus it's due for a new model in a year, with a far better base, so I'd rather wait for that one. Plus, on a more personal note, it's definitely the loser of the group looks-wise. I miss the first CLK...

As for the M6, I know it's technically a competitor to the GT-R, but to me it feels like a different class of car. In the realm of GT's, there's the more sports-oriented ones, and the more cushy cars. The M6 is a good deal larger than the 911 and GT-R, and while the Nissan and it share similar weight and power figures, they seem to have different personalities. I guess personally, if I were in the market for something sub-100K, I'd have the Viper, Vette, GT-R and Porsche in my options for sportier cars (with the latter two focusing on more well-rounded daily use), and the M6 and Jag (and perhaps the new Maser if it fits the price) as potential cruiser-type cars, with the occasional sporty thrashing in mind. It just seems to suit each groups primary character better.

 

[Div is back]

There seems to be such much problem resolving around defining what's what here.
"track day special"
"what class is the GTR"

IMO it's obvious the M6 is not a competitor to the GTR, just look at them :

One has a civilized V10, that can be adjusted to fit your needs, P400 or P500 and is a GT, cruiser.
One has a twin turbo sky breathing 3.8L engine that is purposely made to be fast, not cruise, hence the "controversial" Nurb time, the M6 owners could care less about the time it'll take to go around that german track, the GTR buyers do. It looks like a toy next to the M6, a very fast toy that is.

 

[Dave A]

I'm not sure about the DB9 but I get the feeling that's a two seater as well.

The DB9 is a 4 seater, the V8 vantage is a 2 seater. There is a 4 door variant of the DB9 coming out I think next year called the Rapide which will have more space in the back, but the regualr 2 door DB9 is a 4 seater as well.

 

[Diablomonkey]

The DB9 is a 4 seater, the V8 vantage is a 2 seater. There is a 4 door variant of the DB9 coming out I think next year called the Rapide which will have more space in the back, but the regualr 2 door DB9 is a 4 seater as well.

Umm I hate to burst your bubble... The shop I work at just bought out Aston Martin of Seattle and I have talked with the main guy from there about the Rapide. He told me that all it is is a concept and if they where going to go ahead with it that it would be 3 or 4 years before we see one. Mostly because Aston has to redesign almost everything. And all of there cars are hand built, take the fenders for example I believe that he said they get a rough stamping (and when I say rough I mean ROUGH) of the fender and they use hand tools to finish it. So production would take a very long time.

Oh and yes the DB9 does have 4 seats in it but I don't know wtf would fit in the back. Hell not even a 5 year old would fit in the back.

 

[Dave A]

Well maybe the Rapide is further off, but I have a TopGear article clearly stating that it is on it's way. Either way your not bursting my bubble, my point was that even though there is a 4 door in the works, the 2 door is still a 4 seater, not how near or far off the Rapide was from production.

 

[McLaren]

Umm I hate to burst your bubble... The shop I work at just bought out Aston Martin of Seattle and I have talked with the main guy from there about the Rapide. He told me that all it is is a concept and if they where going to go ahead with it that it would be 3 or 4 years before we see one.

You're employer obviously does not know what he's talking about. Next time you see him, give him this quote.

Aston Martin CEO Ulrich Bez officially announced the car will be built.

This was announced back in the Spring.

.However, he as adamant that the car will come to market long before the Porsche Panamera.

The Porsche is expected 2009-2010. And seeing as it it normally doesn't take 3 years to get a concept that is of already near-production like build into actual production, it is highly expected we'll see the Rapide by Summer 2008.

 

[niky]

One has a civilized V10, that can be adjusted to fit your needs, P400 or P500 and is a GT, cruiser.
One has a twin turbo sky breathing 3.8L engine that is purposely made to be fast, not cruise, hence the "controversial" Nurb time, the M6 owners could care less about the time it'll take to go around that german track, the GTR buyers do. It looks like a toy next to the M6, a very fast toy that is.

From the reviews regarding the stiff suspension, the jerky SMG and the high-revving, high-strung engine... I'd say the M6 isn't the perfect "cruiser" either.

M6 owners are likely to go on and on about the "F1 tech" in their engine, the incredibly high revs it can do, the absurd amount of computer power that goes into running that engine, the zillion sports settings, the carbon fiber lid, the posh interior, etcetera, etcetera, ad nauseum...

That overdose of technology, the bragging rights, and the thrill of caning a car more sophisticated than the space shuttle on the autobahn or in the hills is the reason people buy M6s... and it'll likely be the same reason a person would buy a GT-R.

It's all there: the sophisticated twin turbo engine. An AWD more intelligent than half the planet... an Infiniti-like interior... it's different in execution... but people will buy it for exactly the same reasons (it's da bling, man... )... almost... that Nissan badge isn't going to attract a ton of Euro-snobs or muscle-lovers, but there's a big segment of the population that doesn't give two hoots.

 

[Kent]

Let's not forget that nothing is perfect.
Further, I'd say the people buying M6s aren't really the same crowd buying GT-Rs. Although there are similarities I'm sure there are differences as well. Basically, if the GT-R isn't a harder, more track oriented car than the M6 I'd have to say it's a failure to some extent.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

Why would the GTR be a failure if it wasn't a "harder, more track oriented" car than the M6? The Skyline GTR hasn't been a homologation special since 1973!

Most every review of the R32-33-34 Skyline GTR's I've read has complimented them on their livability as daily drivers, spoken volumes about how civilized and surprisingly refined they are despite their impressive (for their price, size, and power) performance. I'm sorry, but I think if the latest GTR delivers a worthwhile alternative to Jaguar XKR's and Porsche 911 Turbos, then it'll be a big hit.

No matter how you slice it, a GTR is more 911 Turbo than 911GT3. It's just not a thinly disguised race car. It's actually a proper road car.

 

[Div is back]

You're right, Nissan will do a more track oriented version anyway, right?
I think this will be more of a competitor to the GT3, RS, etc.

 

[Jim Prower]

You're right, Nissan will do a more track oriented version anyway, right?
I think this will be more of a competitor to the GT3, RS, etc.

and if the R32, R33, and R34 are any indication, It'll be stripped bare, painted white, have a carbon hood, and be called "N1."

 

[YSSMAN]

As of right now, Nissan has no plans of building any sort of "stripped" R35, the only thing coming close being the Japan-only "EVO" model with the extra power and a few pounds cut out.

I'd personally stick the car against the 911 Turbo and M6 simply because its a bit heavier and doesn't quite have that razor's edge attitude like a Z06 or a GT3. It may be a case of personal opinion, but when it is rolling out with oodles of leather and a navigation system, not to mention more computers than Apollo 13, well, "a track car it aint!"

 

[Kent]

Why would the GTR be a failure if it wasn't a "harder, more track oriented" car than the M6? The Skyline GTR hasn't been a homologation special since 1973!

Most every review of the R32-33-34 Skyline GTR's I've read has complimented them on their livability as daily drivers, spoken volumes about how civilized and surprisingly refined they are despite their impressive (for their price, size, and power) performance. I'm sorry, but I think if the latest GTR delivers a worthwhile alternative to Jaguar XKR's and Porsche 911 Turbos, then it'll be a big hit.

No matter how you slice it, a GTR is more 911 Turbo than 911GT3. It's just not a thinly disguised race car. It's actually a proper road car.

I never mentioned the term homologation for a reason. However, I'd still like to think you should be able to understand why the GT-R should be a little more hard-core than the M6.
For that matter, I'd also think it should be a more track oriented car than the XKR as well.
Oddly enough, I'd put the Turbo 911 in the "more track oriented than a M6 or XKR" as well. Although I wouldn't say the 911 or the GT-R is a trackday car, I'd certainly consider it more track worthy than the XKR and M6.

It's important to keep in mind that I used the term "harder, more track oriented," which is not the same as saying "track car," "trackday special," or "stripped" (and I surely didn't compare it to the GT3).

I do indeed see the GT-R as a street car at heart. However, even street cars have varying levels of track orientation. With that in mind, I really do feel the XKR and M6 are not as track oriented as the GT-R or 911.

 

[Jim Prower]

...not to mention more computers than Apollo 13...

Poor comparison. my Graphing Calculator could out-compute Apollo 13. my kid brother's Nintendo DS could do that too. not to mention, a Chrysler Sebring.

but, yeah, It's not a rip-roaring trackday special, just a road ripper. Kind of like a '70 Buick Regal GS455: luxury with snarling muscle to back it up.