2009 Nissan GT-R - Zero tolerance for asshattery

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Famine has already covered the whole usable daily issue. When I was in school a mate of mines dad drove a Westfield almost every day, in fact it was his 911 Carrera that was used less frequently. Now I'm not suddenly saying a Carrera is less of a road car than a Westfield, but just rubbishing your claims that such cars arn't used daily. The fact is that there are more Vettes, more 911's ertc than R500's and such. And yes, the GT3 RS is a track car, it is built for track use, it is as refined as it has to be for road use, just like a Caterham. Your argument falls flat on it's face here.

rubbishing my claims how? just because ive seen more caterhams used daily than you have doesnt exactly rubbish my claim does it?

 

[Famine]

It may built off the C6R, but I would never call it a track day special. It's not built off the C6R like a 911 GT3 RS is built off a 911 GT3 RSR.

Which is interesting since, 2 years back, we had Corvette-loving GTP members arguing until they were Blue Devil in the face that the Z06 was a C6-R for the road...


The upshot of all of this is that the new GT-R is slower than some other road cars and quicker than quite a lot of other ones around a 6 yard wide tarmac snake in the Black Forest. Quite why this is still of import a thousand posts down the line confuses me.

 

[McLaren]

God, are you thick-headed or what?

It doesn't take a Press Release to tell you these cars are built for a race track. They're built so that Average Joe can finally have the experience of driving a 911 GT3 RSR through the RS, or the 360 Challenge through a 360 CS.

They just happen to be street legal.

Besides, Caterham's are built for the road just like these cars, yet you class them differently. I believe I said this in the past, but double standards must be your specialty.

 

[McLaren]

rubbishing my claims how? just because ive seen more caterhams used daily than you have doesnt exactly rubbish my claim does it?

Not even close to what Dave was saying.

How is a street legal Caterham a track day special, and a street legal 360 Challenge not?

Let me guess. Because of a press release?

Which is interesting since, 2 years back, we had Corvette-loving GTP members arguing until they were Blue Devil in the face that the Z06 was a C6-R for the road...

I don't even see how. The Z06 is too refined compared to the C6R and can be daily driven without any problems. It's just not like a 911 GT3 RS is to a RSR.
EDIT: Apologies for the Double Post.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

God, are you thick-headed or what?

It doesn't take a Press Release to tell you these cars are built for a race track. They're built so that Average Joe can finally have the experience of driving a 911 GT3 RSR through the RS, or the 360 Challenge through a 360 CS.

They just happen to be street legal.

Besides, Caterham's are built for the road just like these cars, yet you class them differently. I believe I said this in the past, but double standards must be your specialty.

no its you not backing up your claims in fact if you wanna go to the non-reliable wikipedia

360 Challenge Stradale (or 360SC) was a later addition to the road line. It was essentially a lightened version of the Modena, dropping 110 kilograms. Changes included larger 19" BBS wheels, the use of carbon fiber for the frames of the seats and mirrors, titanium springs which were also 20% stiffer, and carbon ceramic brake disks. A variety of option allowed for further weight reductions, including replacing the leather interior with fabric, removal of the power windows and mirrors, and leaving off the stereo. Lexan side windows were available in Europe only. It was officially introduced in March of 2003 at the Geneva International Motor Show and went into production shortly thereafter.The 360CS can be compared to Porsche's GT3 RS model in design approach and many magazines have placed them head to head in road tests. Jeremy Clarkson compared the two and chose the 360 CS to be his favorite.

The Porsche 911 GT3 RS is a high-performance sports car built by Porsche since 2003. It is often confused with the non-roadlegal racecar Porsche 911 GT3-RS of 2001 and later, which was based on the Porsche 911 GT3-R of 2000.

Serving as the successor onto the 360 Challenge Stradale, the 430 Scuderia was unveiled by Michael Schumacher at the 2007 Frankfurt Auto Show. Aimed to compete with cars like the Porsche RS-models and Gallardo Superleggera, it is 100 kg (220 lb) lighter than the standard F430 and increases engine output to 380 kW (510 hp) at 8500 rpm. Thus the weight-to-power ratio is reduced from 2.96 kg/hp to 2.45 kg/hp. In addition to the weight saving measures, the Scuderia sequential manual transmission gains improved 'Superfast' software for faster 60 millisecond shift-times. A new traction control system combines the F1-Trac traction and stability control with the E-Diff electronic differential. The Ferrari 430 Scuderia does 0-60mph in less than 3.5 seconds with a top speed of 198mph.

hmmm no meantion of them being based on those race cars that you claim they are,but if you are so sure wheres your proof?

you were the one that said the caterham wasnt a road car but a track car,now your saying i said it was a track car and not a road car

 

[Famine]

I don't even see how.

Just check the Blue Devil thread.

If you can bear it, that is.

The Z06 is too refined compared to the C6R and can be daily driven without any problems.

As I stated earlier, not one publication (at least with which I am familiar - I haven't read EVERY review of the Z06) in the UK agrees with that point of view.

It's just not like a 911 GT3 RS is to a RSR.

Quite so - the 911 GT3 RS can be driven on our (appalling) roads without compressing your spine. Top Gear (yes, I know they aren't the pinnacle of motoring journalism) took one down Stelvio Pass. Though the driver had recently suffered a severe head injury...


Incidentally, wasn't the RS introduced in 2006 and followed by the RS-R in 2007?

 

[forza2.0]

Plus the most obvious point is that all racing 911's are based of the....oh wait, roadgoing 911. Oh dear

 

[Greycap]

show me where it says trackday specials to back up your claims?

On the second sentence of the Porsche press release you posted yourself. "This purist variant of the GT3 is particularly suited for use on the track." Sounds very much like a trackday special for me. But, if you disagree with that, I wonder what's the definition of a trackday special for you - considering that the car must still be road legal.

you were the one that said the caterham wasnt a road car but a track car,now your saying i said it was a track car and not a road car

Actually, it was you who said it.

whereas the R500 is a track oriented version of caterham's lotus 7 replica.

And before you jump on me saying that you meant the basic Caterham Seven, I say that one must be nuts to never have a track day with the Seven. That's what it's built for, no matter what you want us to believe.

Plus the most obvious point is that all racing 911's are based of the....oh wait, roadgoing 911. Oh dear

Whoa, who could have guessed? What are you actually trying to prove here, that trackday special Porsches (or any other cars for that matter) don't exist because there is a base model that shares the basic looks and layout with the top models?

 

[Famine]

My car is particularly suited to use on motorways and in snow. I wouldn't call it a "Snow-day special"...

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

On the second sentence of the Porsche press release you posted yourself. "This purist variant of the GT3 is particularly suited for use on the track." Sounds very much like a trackday special for me. But, if you disagree with that, I wonder what's the definition of a trackday special for you - considering that the car must still be road legal.

but its not a track only car and not all "trackday" cars are road legal well if you wanna believe what some people are saying.

Actually, it was you who said it.


And before you jump on me saying that you meant the basic Caterham Seven, I say that one must be nuts to never have a track day with the Seven. That's what it's built for.

no i said it was track oriented,not a trackday special and nor did i say you shouldnt take it to a trackday.

 

[forza2.0]

My car is particularly suited to use on motorways and in snow. I wouldn't call it a "Snow-day special"...

My car works best when the roads are dry, and its not too warm but not tepid either. It likes it when its moist.

So is it a dry road, not too warm but not too cool either, likes it when its a bit moist special?

 

[TopHat]

My car is particularly suited to use on motorways and in snow. I wouldn't call it a "Snow-day special"...

Your car is more suited in sitting in a beauty salon parking lot with beanie babies on the dash.

 

[Dave A]

but its not a track only car and not all "trackday" cars are road legal well if you wanna believe what some people are saying.


no i said it was track oriented,not a trackday special and nor did i say you shouldnt take it to a trackday.

If the GT3 RS isn't a track day car neither is a Caterham. Both are built for track perforamnce, and compromise road performance in pursuit of that. Both are compromise din track perofrmance enough to be road legal. Both are marketed as cars best used on the track and neither are marketed as cars you would use daily, the fact both can is moot and car can be used daily, the Atom Famine referred to being proof as much as any time I can claim seeing a Caterham, Wesfield or even an Ultima on the roads here in Old Blighty. Just because they can and some do does not mean that the cars focus isn't the track, the same goes for the GT3 RS.

By definition the cars are no different, an Ultima is a compromised road car built for track performance, a GT3 RS is a compromised road car built for track perofrmance. And you can be that whewn the GT3 RS is compared to cars in it's power to weight category it stacks up bloody well on the track.

Tell you what, you bullet point the definitions of a track car that seperate the GT3 RS and the Ultima and/or the Caterham R500 and then we'll see how far your argument really goes.

 

[McLaren]

Just check the Blue Devil thread.

If you can bear it, that is.



As I stated earlier, not one publication (at least with which I am familiar - I haven't read EVERY review of the Z06) in the UK agrees with that point of view.

Too be honest, the Z06 probably isn't a very driveable car in the UK. But in the US, it's only concern is the suspension. All publication here agree it's far more daily driveable than many of its competitors.

Quite so - the 911 GT3 RS can be driven on our (appalling) roads without compressing your spine. Top Gear (yes, I know they aren't the pinnacle of motoring journalism) took one down Stelvio Pass. Though the driver had recently suffered a severe head injury...


Incidentally, wasn't the RS introduced in 2006 and followed by the RS-R in 2007?

My mistake.

no its you not backing up your claims in fact if you wanna go to the non-reliable wikipedia

It's not a claim, it's a fact.

But too bad your proof does not support you as it has no mention of the car's purpose, only what it is. Try again.

Your 2nd quote doesn't say anything but that it is confused with the RS race car. Try again.

Your 3rd quote is from a press release that, like the 1st quote, says what the car is, who it competes with, and when it will be unveiled.

Try...again.

hmmm no meantion of them being based on those race cars that you claim they are,but if you are so sure wheres your proof?

Sorry. Despite the fact what you listed does not describe the cars' purposes, rather that they say what the car is, a press release, let alone a company, does not have to say, "Track Special" to mean it.

you were the one that said the caterham wasnt a road car but a track car,now your saying i said it was a track car and not a road car

Please prove this, as I don't recall even mentioning a Caterham before. Perhaps if you were more literate, you'd see I said Radical.

 

[Kent]

The question here is... Is the GT-R a trackday special (probably more applicable to the Evo model)?

I say no except maybe in the Evo trim. My idea of a trackday special is slowly becoming more well defined.

No radio, track-ish tires, no power options like windows and locks... Those are a few of the standards I'd hold for a trackday special.
Not every one individually and specifically but combonations of characteristics along those lines, that's how I'd judge a trackday special.

Harsh suspension, once again, is very subjective criteria.
The actual mechanical build of the car, that's not subjective (for the most part, although glass windows vs plexy glass or some kind of racing material... that's getting slightly subjective ).

My guess is that the Evo model is the closest to trackday special and it's still short of that title. For refference, I'd just guess the NSX-R is the base of "t.d.s.". Beyond that something along the lines of the GT3 on to GT3RS, then to caterhams and the like, then to radicals... Cars like the radical really are radical when you compare them to normal everyday cars like my Corolla.

Btw, by the same logic as I've used above, I'd say cars like the Enzo and Carrera GT are not trackday specials. 👍
The F40 though...

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

It's not a claim, it's a fact.

back it up its a simple request,if you are so sure that these cars are "trackday specials" as you claim then it so be no problem what so ever to you to back up what you are claiming.

Sorry. Despite the fact what you listed does not describe the cars' purposes, rather that they say what the car is, a press release, let alone a company, does not have to say, "Track Special" to mean it.

erm yes it does other wise you are making a false assumpstion(sp) rather than what you claim as fact.

Please prove this, as I don't recall even mentioning a Caterham before. Perhaps if you were more literate, you'd see I said Radical.

How is a street legal Caterham a track day special, and a street legal 360 Challenge not?

Besides, Caterham's are built for the road just like these cars, yet you class them differently. I believe I said this in the past, but double standards must be your specialty.

 

[McLaren]

back it up its a simple request,if you are so sure that these cars are "trackday specials" as you claim then it so be no problem what so ever to you to back up what you are claiming.

Common Sense doesn't need proof. Do you have something that says this for the Caterham?

erm yes it does other wise you are making a false assumpstion(sp) rather than what you claim as fact.

It's not a false assumption, it is a fact. And you agree to it if you're calling the Caterham a track day special.

You should invest in one of these.

You claim I said the Caterham was a track car, not a road car.

But yet, neither of my quotes have anything to do with that.
My first quote merely asks how a road legal Caterham is a track car and a 360 Challenge Stradale isn't. Not once do I say it's not a road car.

My 2nd quote, I say they are road cars. In fact, I'm nearly asking the first question again.

Where am I saying the Caterham is a track car, not a road car when I'm reading with my own 2 eyes, 2 sentences that in fact say the Caterham is road legal.


Which reminds me. Why are you ignoring Dave's post and my question? I'll ask it again.

How is a street legal Caterham a track car, and the Porsche 997 GT3 RS isn't?

 

[Dave A]

He might want to bullet point the differences as I asked him to do earlier, that will not only provide an avenue to further the discussion as opposed to the headless chicken routing of going round in cirles it will also show us how far his argument really goes.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Common Sense doesn't need proof. Do you have something that says this for the Caterham?

again common sense was suggested in the thread earlier on but everyone wanted proof.....still waiting on yours

It's not a false assumption, it is a fact. And you agree to it if you're calling the Caterham a track day special.

no its an assumption if it was fact you could prove it and i didnt call a caterham a trackday special.

You should invest in one of these.

loving the personal attacks again seems like some members cant help it when they cant prove what they say,iirc personal attacks are against the AUP but then again i think a few people could invest in that(youve bought your copy right? )

How is a street legal Caterham a track car, and the Porsche 997 GT3 RS isn't?

not ignoreing anything you's are reading what i am saying with the proof i have to back it up(no doubt tornado will be along soon to back you up in some form) and i didnt say it was a track car where as the gt3 rs wasnt so theres really no point in asking me that question is there.

He might want to bullet point the differences as I asked him to do earlier, that will not only provide an avenue to further the discussion as opposed to the headless chicken routing of going round in cirles it will also show us how far his argument really goes.

so you dont have to post what you think one is just me? thats fair

 

[Kent]

Need I request a chill out?

In any case, how about one of the hardcore fellas with a heart of gold finds Nissan's official release on what the difference between models will be in production models?
Or maybe just whatever news that comes up... Otherwise, let's try to stay on topic and avoid personal attacks. 👍

 

[Dave A]

so you dont have to post what you think one is just me? thats fair

Yes, you made a claim before I did. Besides, I don't need to list differences because I'm not claiming making a claim the cars are different, I'm claiming that whatever differences you dome up with, I can turn them around and prove you wrong .

If you come up with something I can't prove wrong then fair play, if not then fair play too. At least you've attempted to further the debate and I respect that, right or wrong.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Yes, you made a claim before I did. Besides, I don't need to list differences because I'm not claiming making a claim the cars are different, I'm claiming that whatever differences you dome up with, I can turn them around and prove you wrong.

but you claim and dont read what i post so what would be the point in me posting what i think a trackday special is?

 

[Dave A]

I do read what you post, and so far you haven't come up with a definition. This is why I'm asking for bulleted definitions of why the two cars are different enough to class them as you do. Well they don't have to be bulleted but you get the idea, a list of definitions. If you do that we might get somewhere. As it stands all I see is a big circle of posts repeating themselves with nothing definitive and no progress being made. Like I said, you made the claim that certain other cars don't count, the ball is in your court. you might end up right, you might end up wrong, but if this keeps going in circles you certainly arn't going to convince anyone.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

I do read what you post, and so far you haven't come up with a definition. This is why I'm asking for bulleted definitions of why the two cars are different enough to class them as you do. Well they don't have to be bulleted but you get the idea, a list of definitions. If you do that we might get somewhere. As it stands all I see is a big circle of posts repeating themselves with nothing definitive and no progress being made. Like I said, you made the claim that certain other cars don't count, the ball is in your court. you might end up right, you might end up wrong, but if this keeps going in circles you certainly arn't going to convince anyone.

ok then here you go 2 cars i have been in with a very fast drivers on a race track.

Track Oriented road car (not a trackday special)
GT3 RS

Trackday Special
Norris designs EVO 6 time attack car(which is road legal and is driven on the street)

better?

 

[Dave A]

Nope, any car including Caterham and Radicalls, hell including proper GT race cars can be made faster on a track with modifications. All I'm seeing is two cars built with track performance in mind.

If your not interested in actually defining what your trying to get across, because your clearly not getting it across then I suggest you leave it there. You don't seem to want to try and convince me your right, and there's no point in doing another lap of this debate just the same as the last.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Nope, any car including Caterham and Radicalls, hell including proper GT race cars can be made faster on a track with modifications. All I'm seeing is two cars built with track performance in mind.

If your not interested in actually defining what your trying to get across, because your clearly not getting it across then I suggest you leave it there. You don't seem to want to try and convince me your right, and there's no point in doing another lap of this debate just the same as the last.

you just said the point i had been making.

A car that has been modified would be a "trackday special"(no compromises) whereas a production car would be "track oriented" (compromised to make it livable with everyday)
better?

iirc the only "trackday special" car i can think of in recent times is the ferrari FXX but im sure there are others out there.

 

[YSSMAN]

Which is interesting since, 2 years back, we had Corvette-loving GTP members arguing until they were Blue Devil in the face that the Z06 was a C6-R for the road...

I believe the arguement was over the fact that the Z06 was developed at the same time as the C6.R, making it a bit closer to a racecar than the C5 --> C5.R ever was.

But, I believe we settled that it was not a C6.R for the road. It was close, but not in the same vein as the Challenge Stradale or GT3.

 

[McLaren]

loving the personal attacks again seems like some members cant help it when they cant prove what they say,iirc personal attacks are against the AUP but then again i think a few people could invest in that(youve bought your copy right? )

Who said it's an attack? I'm honestly suggesting you should get one since you're not reading posts.

BTW, funny you talk about members attacking you, and yet you're saying it to us.
Two wrongs don't make a right.

not ignoreing anything you's are reading what i am saying with the proof i have to back it up(no doubt tornado will be along soon to back you up in some form) and i didnt say it was a track car where as the gt3 rs wasnt so theres really no point in asking me that question is there.

Sorry, I don't see any proof that supports your claim it isn't a track car. Just your word and your definition.

so you dont have to post what you think one is just me? thats fair

Why not? You're the one who's obviously only allowed to dictate which is which.

A car that has been modified would be a "trackday special"(no compromises) whereas a production car would be "track oriented" (compromised to make it livable with everyday)
better?

What kind of definition is this? Only a car that has been modified is a track day special? Not even freakin' close, esp. when you say "No compromises". I suppose that means the Boy Ricer down the street in his Civic is a track day special.

You say a production car that is track-oriented is not a track day special, yet, wouldn't a car that's classified as track day special technically be a track-oriented car?

iirc the only "trackday special" car i can think of in recent times is the ferrari FXX but im sure there are others out there.

Why would the FXX be a track day special and a 430 Scuderia isn't?

 

[Famine]

I believe the arguement was over the fact that the Z06 was developed at the same time as the C6.R, making it a bit closer to a racecar than the C5 --> C5.R ever was.

But, I believe we settled that it was not a C6.R for the road. It was close, but not in the same vein as the Challenge Stradale or GT3.

Which begs the question:

Why are the race-car-derived Challenge Stradale and GT3 RS easy to drive on the road and the not-quite-as-race-car-derived Corvette Z06 not?

(though as I pointed out earlier, the GT3 RS came before the RSR, so actually the race car is road-car-derived)

 

[Kent]

Ok guys, I've started deleting off topic replies and I will continue to do so as long of the topic remains off track.

This topic is a GT-R news thread and we've allowed general GT-R discussion to be included.
That does not cover a discussion of what constitutes a "trackday special."
For further debate on the definition of "trackday special" I suggest you head to the cars in general forum, do the appropriate search for the appropriate thread and continue the discussion there.