Blackbird.
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- Bay Area
- BlackbirdGTP
- Blackbird5150
If I had a choice between a Z06 and a GTR I wouldn't hesitate to take the GTR.
2009 Nissan GT-R - Zero tolerance for asshattery
- Thread starter emad
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- GTP_Div
Whatever. I still love my vette's and would never pass one up for a Nissan. I think the new Skyline is ugly and that vette is not. I like the price of the vette better, it is cheaper a fast all the same (I am not talking about a Z06 here). I really don't know how fast the new Nissan is but I'm not interested enough to find out. I don't car if it is faster than the vette or not it's not like I'm going to be racing it non-stop.
Great, you've started the debate.
- 7,153
- killermrk
- KillerMRK2
I think Americans will be pissed that there's a better bang for the buck car than the Z06...opens up debate
You. Best. Be. Joking. Nothing is a replacement for displacement. 'Vette please. A 3LZ Z06 in Jetstream Blue would be quite nice.
You opened it.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
Well, at least in the United States, this comparison is ineviateable. The cars sit in the same price bracket, perform almost identically, and generally suit the same purpose with those who can afford them. They both can be driven daily, both seem to be somewhat surprisingly respectable at the fuel pump, and both have a fairly solid reputation behind them (although, the Corvette is dominant in America, the GT-R obviously moreso in other nations).
Similarly, one must add in the Porsche 911 at least in terms of performance and the continued rivalry between it and the Corvette. It too serves many of the same purposes as the two of them, many of which are driven year-round, AWD models or not. The Porsche, at least in my opinion, serves normally as the benchmark of the world on most occasions, not just in looks, but performance and reliability as well. It normally is "the car to beat," just like its German countrymen that have been made available through BMW (namely the 3-series) and Mercedes-Benz (the E-Class).
Throw in cars like the Mercedes-Benz SL550, Jaguar XK, Audi R8 and BMW 6-series and you've got yourself one helluva mess.
Me?
I obviously still throw it to the Corvette, and this includes the slower C6.5 Z51 models as well. The performance is certainly enough to keep pace in almost every model (well, Z51 and Z06 namely), its certainly cheaper, and at least in my opinion, commands a bit more respect than some Nissan with a GT-R badge on the back... Certainly I recognize that it isn't always the case with everyone, but with most people, it certainly is. Then you take into consideration the lack of technological overloads, the capability of knowing that you're making the car perform this well by yourself, and of course the beautiful and yet powerful symphony of the small-block under the hood.
The only thing better?
Of course, the Porsche 911 silly. They wouldn't call it the world standard if it truly wasn't, and I'd even take the performance deficit just to get that sense of enjoyment out of the car. Hell, I'd even take a decidedly older and slower Porsche than the GT-R. Yes, thats right kids, Brad has officially gone insane...
Similarly, one must add in the Porsche 911 at least in terms of performance and the continued rivalry between it and the Corvette. It too serves many of the same purposes as the two of them, many of which are driven year-round, AWD models or not. The Porsche, at least in my opinion, serves normally as the benchmark of the world on most occasions, not just in looks, but performance and reliability as well. It normally is "the car to beat," just like its German countrymen that have been made available through BMW (namely the 3-series) and Mercedes-Benz (the E-Class).
Throw in cars like the Mercedes-Benz SL550, Jaguar XK, Audi R8 and BMW 6-series and you've got yourself one helluva mess.
Me?
I obviously still throw it to the Corvette, and this includes the slower C6.5 Z51 models as well. The performance is certainly enough to keep pace in almost every model (well, Z51 and Z06 namely), its certainly cheaper, and at least in my opinion, commands a bit more respect than some Nissan with a GT-R badge on the back... Certainly I recognize that it isn't always the case with everyone, but with most people, it certainly is. Then you take into consideration the lack of technological overloads, the capability of knowing that you're making the car perform this well by yourself, and of course the beautiful and yet powerful symphony of the small-block under the hood.
The only thing better?
Of course, the Porsche 911 silly. They wouldn't call it the world standard if it truly wasn't, and I'd even take the performance deficit just to get that sense of enjoyment out of the car. Hell, I'd even take a decidedly older and slower Porsche than the GT-R. Yes, thats right kids, Brad has officially gone insane...
- 23,800
- Philippines
I think calling the Z06 a trackday special is a bit much but I will grant the idea that "trackday special" is a subjective term.
Stiff suspension alone shouldn't be able to earn that designation. Here in Louisiana (southeastern la. roundbout new orleans) has the worst road conditions in the US (debatable?).
In any case, I've met many in this area who claim the Nissan Z is too stiff... Simply being too stiff for comfortable daily driving doesn't make that a trackday car (especially if the people are sensitive or not as enthusiastic as other drivers).
I'd say too many Z06s are purchased with modern conveniences and comforts for "trackday special" to fit properly.
"Trackday special" is so subjective... If I were to change the wheels and tires, strip the back seat and roof lining, lose the a/c and radio... That would be a start for making a trackday special out of my Corolla.
Further, I'd say stressing the horrible conditions of the roads only argues against the validity of the "too stiff" argument.
Run any car on horrible roads and you'll have a horrible ride (ranging from fun and bumpy to spine shattering).
I agree. It's very hard to define what makes a "trackday" special...
Yes, there are sportscars with no amenities that are marginal for road use, but: sportscars with amenities aren't going to offer you the same comfort as a regular road car.
My cousin complains that he can't even use more than 1/4th throttle in the bottom gears of his Dad's Viper... it's just too stiff and too jittery for you to actually put any power down on their local roads... yet, it's a daily driver.
The Mercedes McLaren SLR is a car noted as being horribly, horribly stiff on the road, yet it's loaded with so much luxury that you'd be daft to take it to a trackday expecting to be the fastest guy on track.
Westfield actually offers its Super Seven clone with weather protection, AC and a radio. Hmmmm...
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Again, though... we're still arguing about a time that might or might not be production? And we're not waiting for an actual run from a production vehicle?
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Corvette versus GTR... it's a no-win situation.
A person who's likely to buy a Corvette will buy a Corvette. It's not whether it's the fastest, cheapest, best-performing... etcetera. They buy a Corvette because they're (pardon the term) fanatics. It's a Corvette or nothing else. A person who's likely to buy a Porsche will buy it because it's a Porsche.
The GTR? People will buy it because it's fast. It doesn't have the history or prestige of the other two (at least, not outside Japan, and not outside the circle of fanatics that go agog over it on the internet)... Nissan has to sell it on ability, which is why they're touting the Ring time.
And, to echo a post not so long ago (a few pages back)... people doubt the time simply because it's a Nissan. Because it's this heavy. Because it has xxxx tires. Because it only has xxxx power. Blah blah blah. C'mon guys... this is a modern, turbocharged, sports coupe... from a manufacturer notorious (not only for spurious ring times) for understating power on their turbocharged sports coupes. With enough electronics to launch a mission to Mars. I can't say the time is 100% legit, but I can say that it's likely possible.
That's why Porsche don't really have to brag about times. Put the Porsche badge on a shaved pig and it'll sell (see: Cayenne)... it's widely known they're quick... and 911s in verious states of tune participate in motorsports worldwide... but which of the two (Porsche 911 Turbo / GTR) is comprehensively quicker has to await a full-on head-to-head comparison.
- 87,479
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
I think calling the Z06 a trackday special is a bit much but I will grant the idea that "trackday special" is a subjective term.
Stiff suspension alone shouldn't be able to earn that designation. Here in Louisiana (southeastern la. roundbout new orleans) has the worst road conditions in the US (debatable?).
In any case, I've met many in this area who claim the Nissan Z is too stiff... Simply being too stiff for comfortable daily driving doesn't make that a trackday car (especially if the people are sensitive or not as enthusiastic as other drivers).
I'd say too many Z06s are purchased with modern conveniences and comforts for "trackday special" to fit properly.
"Trackday special" is so subjective... If I were to change the wheels and tires, strip the back seat and roof lining, lose the a/c and radio... That would be a start for making a trackday special out of my Corolla.
Further, I'd say stressing the horrible conditions of the roads only argues against the validity of the "too stiff" argument.
Run any car on horrible roads and you'll have a horrible ride (ranging from fun and bumpy to spine shattering).
I quite agree - but it reduces the usefulness of the Z06 in the UK to a car which you can pretty much only ever use on a track. And it is officially sold in the UK through Chevrolet's dealer "network".
Okay, ONE garage.
I'm merely highlighting the extreme incongruity in rejecting a whole bunch of cars which are demonstrably faster than this Nissan as not being worthy of mention for being "trackday specials", when in fact many of them are not only road legal (in the US also) but more usable than a car many would consider as a "real" car benchmark.
- 40,850
Well, downforce is adjustable, yes.
Especially when the car is in development. And if any of the previous GT-Rs were any indication, the downforce on this GT-R will be adjustable as well. But you must be insane to think that the GT-Rs rear spoiler and front airdam make anywhere near the downforce of the cars that Leo showed pictures of. For one, the GT-Rs rear spoiler is actually very tame, even when compared to the older GT-Rs. When you compare it to the car's Leo posted, the differences between an FIA style rear spoiler and a production car rear spoiler would be pretty obvious. They all also appear to have adjustable front splitters as well, which is something I am quite sure the GT-R does not have. That being said, I don't want to go into the argument of trackday specials.
- 9,089
- Scotland
Well, downforce is adjustable, yes.
why do you always single out what i say its like you have a problem with me?
and stock production cars not track day specials
therefore the wing on the radical is a production car rear spoiler
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
I think I added an extra zero to my pre-order figures, Nissan isn't giving us too many GT-Rs:
That, for the most part, completely throws the "value" notion of the GT-R out the window. If its as expensive and as rare as a Dodge Viper SRT-10 Coupe, well, that may be a problem indeed...
Autoblog
That, for the most part, completely throws the "value" notion of the GT-R out the window. If its as expensive and as rare as a Dodge Viper SRT-10 Coupe, well, that may be a problem indeed...
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
Its the beauty of the capitalist system. If demand is higher than supply, you can charge more. If supply is higher than demand (see Chrysler), you can charge less. Mustangs have markups as high as $20K on some models here in Grand Rapids, and I've know of people spending two or three times the sticker price to get an exceptionally rare one (the Cobra R for instance). It has been an issue with Audi's R8 as well, as I've heard of some rather stacked price jumps at some dealers depending on the wait list.
It happens all the time, and it largely depends on where the cars are being sold as well. I'd be willing to bet that the markup in a State like California or Florida that are much more import-friendly would be higher than that of a more domestic-friendly state like Illinois or Michigan.
It happens all the time, and it largely depends on where the cars are being sold as well. I'd be willing to bet that the markup in a State like California or Florida that are much more import-friendly would be higher than that of a more domestic-friendly state like Illinois or Michigan.
forza2.0
(Banned)
- 987
- And they look better
- Cheaper too
Yeah but isnt it unethical for a nissan dealer to do such a thing. Its like with audi and their R8. They cannot keep up with demand but their dealers dont go adding a premium to the vehicle. The car will cost what audi says it will cost in the brochure, not what the dealership owner thinks he should be selling it for. It would be bad publicity for the manufacturer to have its dealers take advantage of people.
- 8,191
- Southern Louisiana
- GTP_Kent
Indeed, Capatalism. 👍
However, I wouldn't put bets on mark-ups based on domestic friendly or import friendly. Rather, I'd put my mark-up bets on availibility once again.
Chances are much high that states like California and Florida already have a demand for these specific cars where as in Louisiana this car is barely known. I'd be willing to bet mark-up in Louisiana would be higher since a LA. dealer would need to get their hands on this from a bigger dealer in a state like CA. (which means dealer mark-ups are past on to the dealer and another mark-up would be made before selling to the customer)...
In contrast to that, CA. and FL. dealers already have demand and therefore may be more likely to recieve a higher number of the cars and in turn do not get the car for an already marked-up price.
Follow me? (although that isn't to say I'm right)
Also, Forza 2.0, you need to recognize that simply being unethical is not enough to stop mark-ups.
Ethics may be the base of most laws but they are not laws in themselves.
Plus, reverse the roles and marking-up the price of a limited production object isn't unethical.
Rather, you buying a limited production object for a low price (ignoring the limited number) could be considered unethical as well.
(research the debates of seminary schools from about 900AD to 1300AD and you'll see that ethics are a very funny buisness with many twists and turns)
However, I wouldn't put bets on mark-ups based on domestic friendly or import friendly. Rather, I'd put my mark-up bets on availibility once again.
Chances are much high that states like California and Florida already have a demand for these specific cars where as in Louisiana this car is barely known. I'd be willing to bet mark-up in Louisiana would be higher since a LA. dealer would need to get their hands on this from a bigger dealer in a state like CA. (which means dealer mark-ups are past on to the dealer and another mark-up would be made before selling to the customer)...
In contrast to that, CA. and FL. dealers already have demand and therefore may be more likely to recieve a higher number of the cars and in turn do not get the car for an already marked-up price.
Follow me? (although that isn't to say I'm right)
Also, Forza 2.0, you need to recognize that simply being unethical is not enough to stop mark-ups.
Ethics may be the base of most laws but they are not laws in themselves.
Plus, reverse the roles and marking-up the price of a limited production object isn't unethical.
Rather, you buying a limited production object for a low price (ignoring the limited number) could be considered unethical as well.
(research the debates of seminary schools from about 900AD to 1300AD and you'll see that ethics are a very funny buisness with many twists and turns)
forza2.0
(Banned)
- 987
- And they look better
- Cheaper too
Those are premiums on 2nd pre registered cars. If I go into my audi dealer tomorrow and order a R8 I can buy one for the price as in the brochure.
Same goes for BMW and their M3 and in the past the M5. People were buying them to sell them for a extra 10 grand or so. But if me or you wanted to buy one 50k or however much they cost in the brochure, is what we would pay.
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- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
I follow, and it pretty much is what I had intended to put forth. Nissan dealers in Michigan already know that interest won't be nearly as heavy as it would in other places like California, so we're going to receive fewer, and even more likely, our cars will probably sell for closer to the sticker price.
Ethical or not, what a dealer does (when privately owned) does little to reflect what the automakers with themselves. This is why MSRP stands for "Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price," meaning that in effect, dealers can charge whatever they want for the car. But, the big difference here is that it truly is the market/consumer that decides what the car is worth.
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Say for example that the local Nissan dealer will be getting two GT-Rs and there are ten people who want them. One man, who has rather deep pockets may decide to better his chances of getting one of these GT-Rs by offering an extra $5000 over the sticker. Another customer, not happy with this, offers an extra $6000 over the sticker. Roll that on down to customers three through ten and, well, you're going to see prices go through the roof.
The dealer only makes money, but it is the consumer who decides how much the car should be.
Flip it?
Chrysler dealers literally have dozens of Sebrings sitting on their lots, and have turnover rates that go into MONTHS before a single car is sold. Dealers wanting updated inventory will often cut prices on the car, sometimes by as much as $10,000 just to get it off the lot. While they end up losing money, essentially, it offers them the ability to make more later on by creating a positive "deal" relationship with customers, and furthermore, when new products arrive, there will be enough room for what consumers want.
McLaren
Premium
- 45,592
- Texas
and stock production cars not track day specials
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
What do you think these cars are?
Porsche 911 GT3 RS
Porsche 911 GT2
Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale
Ferrari 430 Scuderia
Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera
Honda NSX-R
Lamborghini Diablo GT
Dodge Viper GTS/R GT2 Championship Edition
These are cars produced by the manufacturers (Production cars) that are built as a special model of a pre-existing car/type for the owners to take to a track day (Track Day Special), yet can still be driven normally on the roads as any other car.
The plain and simple truth is that the Radical does not meet the same standards. It is built as a race car through and through, and only happens to be street legal in Europe. I doubt it'd get very far through the US.
- 9,089
- Scotland
wrong? how? they are high performance version of current models(would you claim a mondeo ST220 is a trackday version of a mondeo 1.6?) street legal enough to be classed as a production car,you can argue that they are trackday special etc etc but at the end of the day they are still road legal/worthy production road cars.
- 30,018
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
No the ST220 is still a refined car, i t doesn't make any effort to be as good on a track as it can be, it is just a faster version of the regular car. The GT3 RS is built for track performance, as is the Challenge Stradale and the Scuderia. You cannot define a Caterham as a track car and not a GT3 RS. Just because one has a roof, just because one is built in a bigger factory and is made by a company with a dealer network and a hell of a lot more staff. Thoes are not valid reasons. You can drive both on the road, neither will be comfortable, both are fantastic on the track. End of.
- 9,089
- Scotland
- 30,018
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
They arn't exactly daily drivers. The fact is the GT3 RS is built for track performance with compromises made to keep it road legal, no different to an R500 which is built for track performance but has compromises to make it road legal. The only real differences beyond one having a roof and the other not, is the size of company that builds them.
McLaren
Premium
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- Texas
True, but I don't necessarily see the Atom as a race car like the Radical.
Um, it's the samething. A car that is labeled a Track Day Special is a car that is track-oriented, aka, built for the track.
The cars I listed are specifically built by Porsche/Ferrari/etc. for track days.
They are special versions of the F430 and 911 GT3 that are built for owners to take to track days. They are Track Day Specials because they are track-oriented.
- 9,089
- Scotland
erm no the GT3 RS is a track oriented 911,not a racing 911 made "road legal" and they are used fairly often as daily drivers,ive seen a fair amount of them and been in a couple to know they arent that harsh.whereas the R500 is a track oriented version of caterham's lotus 7 replica.
they arent build for the track though,they are build for the road but to give the driver the race car experience if and when they wish to experience it.
McLaren
Premium
- 45,592
- Texas
Um, yes it is. The GT3 RS is based off this exact car.
Just like the 430 Scuderia is based off this.
Track Day cars these days are built off race cars. They keep the race car values, yet are subtle enough to be street legal.
No they're not. A GT3 RS is built to be taken to a track. It is just made street legal to get there. It is a race car for the road.
A perfect example is the Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale. This car is purposely built for track racing as it is built off a 360 Challenge Race Car. Stradale means street though, thus it is a 360 Challenge Race Car that happens to be street legal.
- 30,018
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
Famine has already covered the whole usable daily issue. When I was in school a mate of mines dad drove a Westfield almost every day, in fact it was his 911 Carrera that was used less frequently. Now I'm not suddenly saying a Carrera is less of a road car than a Westfield, but just rubbishing your claims that such cars arn't used daily. The fact is that there are more Vettes, more 911's ertc than R500's and such. And yes, the GT3 RS is a track car, it is built for track use, it is as refined as it has to be for road use, just like a Caterham. Your argument falls flat on it's face here.
- 9,089
- Scotland
show me where it says trackday specials to back up your claims?Um, yes it is. The GT3 RS is based off this exact car.
Just like the 430 Scuderia is based off this.
Track Day cars these days are built off race cars. They keep the race car values, yet are subtle enough to be street legal.
No they're not. A GT3 RS is built to be taken to a track. It is just made street legal to get there. It is a race car for the road.
A perfect example is the Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale. This car is purposely built for track racing as it is built off a 360 Challenge Race Car. Stradale means street though, thus it is a 360 Challenge Race Car that happens to be street legal.
