2009 Nissan GT-R - Zero tolerance for asshattery

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

2. You brought the RS6 into the conversation for no good reason at all, even if they had been close in price (which they are not - based on sourced estimated prices), they are two cars aimed at totally different market segments. Which makes your post borderline spam, and I'm certainly not the only one to think so.



Scaff

actually he does have a point to an extent,nissan say that the GTR can fit 4 adults and have a decent amount of luggage space.Im 6'3 and i think i can safely say i will not fit in the backseats of a GTR and the average height of a man is around 5'10 - 6'0 and i would love to see them try to fit in the backseats of a GTR and still be comfortable at the end of the trip.so in a sense if you want a practical fast cruiser that is also decently fast around a track then cars such as the RS6,M5 and E63 are rivals to an extent.(if you can see what i mean sitting 4 adults comfortably and have a decent amount of luggage space)

 

[Dave A]

But they werent a huge success before the 7.3 came out and even now they arent exactly selling a huge amount are they.

No because they're limited production there arn't many to sell. They do sell what they produce.

why cant i question koenigsegg's reliable if i buy a car i dont want it to break down every 5 yards and it isnt exactly regarded as "one of the best" they havent even sold what 50-100 car?

You can, it's just completely irrelevent to the poimt made, raise thoes issues in a Koenigsegg thread or during a discussion that is relevent. And yes, Koenigsegg's are highly regarded in the media and a lot of the public. The number of models they've sold is again, more to do with the unmbers produced. If you have official figures to back up you 50-100 sold claim, please share them.

again i didnt say this car will not or cant succeed i said that nissan would have a very hard job to achieve what they want to and again the company isnt totally financial stable.

No ones saying it's an easy market to succeed in, but there is no reason that it won't.

 

[Pyrelli]

yes i have seen a fair amount of skylines at knockhill and indeed at castle combe (great track) but my point still has value,nissan expect to sell 2000 per year in the uk,you dont see 26,000 r32/33/34 GTR's in the uk do you? (taking the number of 2000 per year from the years the cars were in production)

There's a good reason for that, if you saw 26,000 GT-R's in the U.K that would come up to around 35% of all the GT-R's ever produced (including the significant majority of the special editions according to wikipedia). However I agree that the 2000 per year estimate seems very optimistic at best.

I never said i dont take nissan seriously i am simply pointing out they seem to be making it out to be easier than it will be.

Agreed, that to me seems to be their biggest mistake.

yes it had A nissan badge on the rear but it was mainly covered in GT or GTR badges.Why not keep the nissan badge on the front if nissan were proud of the car?

Much in the same way that Mustangs have their own 'pony'(?) badges on the front. It's not that Nissan aren't proud of the car (why wouldn't they be..? ), it's making the most of the GT-R 'brand' and its association with Nissan.

Pyrelli

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Koenigsegg's are highly regarded in the media and a lot of the public.

They were highly regarded because they claimed it had a top speed higher than the mclaren f1....which it did.....if you took off the spoiler and duck taped up half the car.

No ones saying it's an easy market to succeed in, but there is no reason that it won't.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/supercars/koenigsegg-in-financial-trouble/
http://www.autojab.com/money-woes-hit-koenigsegg/
http://thespeedbarrier.blogspot.com/2007/08/koenigsegg-faces-trouble.html
and also

Tommy Sharif, a famous Norwegian salesman, is now suing Koenigsegg Norway, Koenigsegg AB and supplier and owner Bård Eker.

Accordingly Tommy Sharif never got the 5 million NOK he payed in advance for the car back - as we all know, after driving it off the road an planing to take part in illegal street racing - Koenigsegg took the car back.

The car was later sold to the Swedish H&M owner Stefan Bengtsson - which only hours after buying the car - crashed it overtaking a garbagetruck.

Koenigsegg offered Tommy Sharif stocks in the company instead of the money back - according to Sharif's lawyer because Koenigsegg didn't have 5 million NOK ($80k-90k) available.

yep that sounds like a financial safe company to me

 

[Scaff]

actually he does have a point to an extent,nissan say that the GTR can fit 4 adults and have a decent amount of luggage space.Im 6'3 and i think i can safely say i will not fit in the backseats of a GTR and the average height of a man is around 5'10 - 6'0 and i would love to see them try to fit in the backseats of a GTR and still be comfortable at the end of the trip.so in a sense if you want a practical fast cruiser that is also decently fast around a track then cars such as the RS6,M5 and E63 are rivals to an extent.(if you can see what i mean sitting 4 adults comfortably and have a decent amount of luggage space)

The 911 will (just) fit four adults and has a descent size boot, does that make the RS6 a 911 rival? In which case why make the R8. My old Celica would fit four adults (without the need to remove legs) and had a huge boot does that make the Ford Focus a direct competitor?

I would personally say no, the RS6 will be a lot more comfortable in the back that either the 911 or the GT-R and I would guess carry quite a bit more. And if early road tests of the GT-R are correct it has a suspension set-up that is only slightly more compliant that an R34, if that is correct then in no way could the word cruiser be used. I quite like my fillings and having driven an R34 and an RS4 (nearest I can do to the RS6) I can assure you that a long distance would be much better served by the Audi.

If the GT-R has more usable rear seats and more luggage space than the 911 that gives it a potential selling point over the 911, its quote a leap to then say its starting to become a direct rival to the RS6.


They are aimed at totally different parts of the market, they are aimed at (estimated) different price points and almost certainly at different 'lifestyle' groups from a marketing and brand point of view.

I honestly don't see many GT-R customers standing next to the car and saying, now I know I want something that shouts stupidly aggressive coupe, so I will go and buy a saloon/estate car. I could however see them saying, actually I'm going to beg, borrow and steal the difference and go for an R8 (otherwise why do Audi make the R8 - if as has now been claimed the RS6 is a competitor to the GT-R which is targeted at the 911).


Regards

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

They were highly regarded because they claimed it had a top speed higher than the mclaren f1....which it did.....if you took off the spoiler and duck taped up half the car.


http://www.motorauthority.com/news/supercars/koenigsegg-in-financial-trouble/
http://www.autojab.com/money-woes-hit-koenigsegg/
http://thespeedbarrier.blogspot.com/2007/08/koenigsegg-faces-trouble.html
and also



yep that sounds like a financial safe company to me

That second quote wasn't referring to Koenigsegg, I see no reason why you quoted it in that context. It was pretty clear.

I know about that story too, I know that that is just his side of the story. I could use my own judgment and say that the guy was an idiot. I could jump to conclusions without and proof and say that if Koenigsegg wasn't ok for money they wouldn't have as many model variations. But that's just me thinking, if you have proof of Koenigsegg's financial situation feel free to share it. But ultimately, it's not directly relvent to the GT-R.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Much in the same way that Mustangs have their own 'pony'(?) badges on the front. It's not that Nissan aren't proud of the car (why wouldn't they be..? ), it's making the most of the GT-R 'brand' and its association with Nissan.

Pyrelli

In a sense yes,if toyota and nissan were confident with thier cars and that they would sell then why create brands like the GTR or Lexus or infiniti?

The 911 will (just) fit four adults and has a descent size boot, does that make the RS6 a 911 rival? In which case why make the R8. My old Celica would fit four adults (without the need to remove legs) and had a huge boot does that make the Ford Focus a direct competitor?

I would personally say no, the RS6 will be a lot more comfortable in the back that either the 911 or the GT-R and I would guess carry quite a bit more. And if early road tests of the GT-R are correct it has a suspension set-up that is only slightly more compliant that an R34, if that is correct then in no way could the word cruiser be used. I quite like my fillings and having driven an R34 and an RS4 (nearest I can do to the RS6) I can assure you that a long distance would be much better served by the Audi.

If the GT-R has more usable rear seats and more luggage space than the 911 that gives it a potential selling point over the 911, its quote a leap to then say its starting to become a direct rival to the RS6.


They are aimed at totally different parts of the market, they are aimed at (estimated) different price points and almost certainly at different 'lifestyle' groups from a marketing and brand point of view.

I honestly don't see many GT-R customers standing next to the car and saying, now I know I want something that shouts stupidly aggressive coupe, so I will go and buy a saloon/estate car. I could however see them saying, actually I'm going to beg, borrow and steal the difference and go for an R8 (otherwise why do Audi make the R8 - if as has now been claimed the RS6 is a competitor to the GT-R which is targeted at the 911).


Regards

Scaff

You need to look at my post as a whole,i didnt meantion the need for a car that "shouts stupidly aggressive coupe".i said that nissan are marketing this as able to seat 4 adults comfortably over a long distance,be decently quick,have decent luggage space and be pretty quick round a track and with some reports they say that the rear leg room is pretty poor but if i want to seat 3 friends comfortably for a trip to the nurburgring and having to take all the gear as well would i be able to do that in a GTR? very doubtful.The Audi R8 isnt marketed to be able to seat 4 people comfortably as it isnt only a 2 seater.

personally (and im a huge fast audi fan) i really dont see the point of the R8,its just seems like a "range filler" to me.(Audi TT V6,Audi R8 V8,Gallardo V10) note none of the cars vag own have a 2 seater V8 sports car therefore its just filling a gap.

if you have proof of Koenigsegg's financial situation feel free to share it. But ultimately, it's not directly relvent to the GT-R.

sorry did you miss the first 3 links?
and koenigsegg still have to pay him the money and they didnt.

 

[Dave A]

Sorry, I assumed they were about that fella. I don't specifically doubt that they are but I don't see why your pursuing this either. It doesn't reflect on Nissan or the GT-R, the original point was meerely that the car has become a media success and that it's highly regarded. Financially Nissan and Koenigsegg are on rather different budgets.

 

[Scaff]

In a sense yes,if toyota and nissan were confident with thier cars and that they would sell then why create brands like the GTR or Lexus or infiniti?

So lets get rid of the Audi, VW, Seat and Lambo brands and stick them all down as Skoda's, or are VAG not proud of Skoda?

How about the Dino, was the Ferrari name such that they did not want to stick it on the car because it would shame them?

No the rather simple answer to this is that they are aimed at totally different market areas, with differing brand values. With the GT-R Its little different to BMW's M-Sport division or AMG, after all the GT-R still carries the Nissan badge (as always with GT-Rs on the rear of the car.

You need to look at my post as a whole,i didnt meantion the need for a car that "shouts stupidly aggressive coupe".i said that nissan are marketing this as able to seat 4 adults comfortably over a long distance,be decently quick,have decent luggage space and be pretty quick round a track and with some reports they say that the rear leg room is pretty poor but if i want to seat 3 friends comfortably for a trip to the nurburgring and having to take all the gear as well would i be able to do that in a GTR? very doubtful.The Audi R8 isnt marketed to be able to seat 4 people comfortably as it isnt only a 2 seater.

personally (and im a huge fast audi fan) i really dont see the point of the R8,its just seems like a "range filler" to me.(Audi TT V6,Audi R8 V8,Gallardo V10) note none of the cars vag own have a 2 seater V8 sports car therefore its just filling a gap.

Sorry but Nissan are not marketing the car by playing on its ability to seat 4 people in comfort over a long distance at all, the microsite on the car makes almost no mention at all of those factors...

http://www.gtrnissan.com/

..it does however play on its speed, agility, cutting edge technology and ability to get around the 'ring. In other worlds the kind of things that they have always focussed in with the GT-R's and also the areas that Porsche also focus on with the 911.

Sorry but in no way can I agree that the GT-R and RS6 are competitors, they are in differing price points, have differing target audiences and I seriously doubt we will see any 'group' tests comparing the two. On the other hand I can see plenty of magazines putting the 911 and R8 against the GT-R (and it was a 911 Turbo that Nissan allowed people to drive back to back with the GT-R at the pre-launch of the car at the Nurburgring GP circuit - source Evo 113).


Regards

Scaff

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Sorry, I assumed they were about that fella. I don't specifically doubt that they are but I don't see why your pursuing this either. It doesn't reflect on Nissan or the GT-R, the original point was meerely that the car has become a media success and that it's highly regarded. Financially Nissan and Koenigsegg are on rather different budgets.

you were the one that started talking about pagani and koenigsegg

 

[Pyrelli]

In a sense yes,if toyota and nissan were confident with thier cars and that they would sell then why create brands like the GTR or Lexus or infiniti?

I call the GT-R a brand but do so with caution. I'm under the impression, just as how Golf have the infamous GTi, that it's not a brand in itself but only used to distinguish the car within its own range. I believe that all previous versions (of Skyline GT-R's) other than the version being discussed are infact tuned verions of simpler sedans; as such the brand came about as a consequence of the cars success and then Nissan cashed in on the added value.

Lexus and other equivalents were created to either break into new markets or to sell 'luxury' cars of their respective brands. Up until recently, Lexus branded cars were still sold as Toyota's in Japan.

Pyrelli

 

[Dave A]

you were the one that started talking about pagani and koenigsegg

Yes, and the point was that they were two comapnies with no history or reputation yet both have now got a good reputation when it comes to the cars. By contrast, Nissan and specifically the GT-R already has a vast following a great reputation and plenty of history, there is no reason the GT-R will not be a success. The point has nothing to do with Koenigsegg's financial situation.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

So lets get rid of the Audi, VW, Seat and Lambo brands and stick them all down as Skoda's, or are VAG not proud of Skoda?

VAG didnt create skoda though they bought them which is different to what i posted (creating a brand)

Sorry but Nissan are not marketing the car by playing on its ability to seat 4 people in comfort over a long distance at all, the microsite on the car makes almost no mention at all of those factors...

http://www.gtrnissan.com/

..it does however play on its speed, agility, cutting edge technology and ability to get around the 'ring. In other worlds the kind of things that they have always focussed in with the GT-R's and also the areas that Porsche also focus on with the 911.

all i get is a "site coming soon early 2008" and abit about transforming a family car into a supercar and if its about its speed and agility does that mean we can bin the everyday driveability/usage of the car then? and i do remember reading an article a while ago talking about nissan saying it can seat 4 adults comfortibly but cant seem to find it now(could have been when flicking through a magazine a while ago)

Sorry but in no way can I agree that the GT-R and RS6 are competitors, they are in differing price points, have differing target audiences and I seriously doubt we will see any 'group' tests comparing the two. On the other hand I can see plenty of magazines putting the 911 and R8 against the GT-R (and it was a 911 Turbo that Nissan allowed people to drive back to back with the GT-R at the pre-launch of the car at the Nurburgring GP circuit - source Evo 113).


Regards

Scaff

i never said that eh rs6 and the GTR were direct competitors i simply said i could sort of see his point when talking about the RS6.Dont have evo 113 just yet have 112,getting 113 in a couple of hours.

Yes, and the point was that they were two comapnies with no history or reputation yet both have now got a good reputation when it comes to the cars. By contrast, Nissan and specifically the GT-R already has a vast following a great reputation and plenty of history, there is no reason the GT-R will not be a success. The point has nothing to do with Koenigsegg's financial situation.

my arguement on that was the reliability of the car of this level of performance as it is nissans first attempt,i said that i would be intrested to see how long the clutch would last with 0-60 claimed at 3.5 seconds,how long the brakes will last (evo112 claimed a couple of german testers managed to melt the brakes after a few laps of the nurb GP track) and its high speed stability(the zonda f didnt exactly look easy to drive around the 'ring and we all know what happened to the 'segg on top gear and even the audi tt was known to take off) koenigsegg's financial situation would be in reference to if they went bust and i had a 'segg how am i going to service it,get spares etc although somehow i doubt nissan will go bust.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

That second quote wasn't referring to Koenigsegg, I see no reason why you quoted it in that context. It was pretty clear.

I know about that story too, I know that that is just his side of the story. I could use my own judgment and say that the guy was an idiot. I could jump to conclusions without and proof and say that if Koenigsegg wasn't ok for money they wouldn't have as many model variations. But that's just me thinking, if you have proof of Koenigsegg's financial situation feel free to share it. But ultimately, it's not directly relvent to the GT-R.

OT, but I just have to say this; This Sarif guy was simply pissed off because Koenigsegg didn´t want to buy back a car at full price, that Sarif crashed (I suck as a driver, so I want my money back, please.). Instead they offered him stock in Koenigsegg AB, wich seems to be their way of doing business and service.

 

[Leonidae]

I did some work, and gathered these interesting little chips of info which might very well explain why GT-R is so fast. As I've said few times before, it's very aggressively geared.

GT-R
1st 4.056 39mph @ 7000rpm
2nd 2.301 68mph
3rd 1.595 98mph
4th 1.248 126mph
5th 1.001 147mph
6th 0.796 197mph
Final drive 3.700

as you can see, the top speed is limited due gearing, so with taller final ratio or taller sixth gear, it'd be 200mph car. Here's Corvette Z06's gear ratios for comparison.

Corvette Z06

1st Gear Ratio 2.97:1
2nd Gear Ratio 2.07:1
3rd Gear Ratio 1.43:1
4th Gear Ratio 1.00:1
5th Gear Ratio 0.71:1
6th Gear Ratio 0.57:1
Final Drive 3.42:1

I think that explains a lot..

and here's

Porsche 911 Turbo
1st: 3.82:1
2nd: 2.14:1
3rd: 1.48:1
4th: 1.18:1
5th: 0.97:1
6th: 0.79:1
final drive 3.44:1

Porsche's gearing is between Z06 and GT-R's. It is about as fast as GT-R, but taller final gears assure faster top speed, whereas Z06 practically stops accelerating after 5th gear. GT-R in other hand is limited due the gearing, nothing else.

 

[McLaren]

you were talking about people who are centered around track racing that would buy it aswell.

Yes, but I was talking about how the GT-R would be picked more by them than a Ferrari (50/50) compared to random folks where the statistics would be 8-9/10.

I was not talking about bringing in any other car.

pagani worked for Lamborghini for a long time

The fact Pagani worked for Lamborghini didn't reach the buyers til' the Zonda F entered production. Being that he worked for Lamborghini wouldn't really help anyways. Any guy who worked for Ferrari will not necessarily gain success with his product.

and his car wasnt really noticed till they built the C12 S 7.3 L version(almost over 10 years since he brought out his first car) and we all know koenigsegg build the most reliable cars in the world and are in a great financial situation.

Pagani's first car a Fangio F1 prototype with no intentions of being sold to the public. Pagani's first car was built in 1999, and featured a 6.0L V12. Model number #2 was sold in 2001 with a 7.0L V12. Both remained in production until 2002. The C12 S 7.3 was then built in 2002 til' 2005.

So, how on earth is 3 years, 10 years?

And no, Koenigsegg is not not financially secured, not when they're now trying to sell $2 million cars with only bare CF & 2 tone paint.

 

[YSSMAN]

That tall sixth gear in the Z06 is mostly there to dodge the gas guzzler tax (by which both the Porsche and Z06 are unaffected by). That being said, the Z06 will still run 0-60 in first gear, which works out to about 3.5 seconds (depending on whos driving, what surface they're on), about two tenths of a second behind the GT-R. In all honesty, for a RWD car where you've got to row your own gears and no launch control, well, thats damn-good.

Gear ratios are always a bit different for anything, and in all honesty, comparing the GT-R to the Porsche and the Z06 is a bit odd given the way in which they put the power down. Certainly the Porsche is a fair bit more similar, but with the Z06, you're looking at a pretty different style of car, certainly with a far-different powerband. The gears are going to have to be a bit taller given the nature of the V8, and furthermore, the way in which you would want to be running the car around the track.

That by no means makes the LS7 a slouch with those ratios, we've already seen that it can go from stop to 170 MPH in fifth gear...

 

[Jim Prower]

Now, Wait a Sec, I just thought of something...

Who is Nissan owned by?

Does this company not have experience selling high-performance cars in the european market? Could Nissan get a little marketing help?

Look, Nissan could've made this car a Japan-exclusive with limited exports, just like every other GT-R ever made, but someone at Nissan made the business case to the higher ups, Gohsn included, to officially sell the car internationally. If the demand wasn't there, they wouldn't have done this. It's simple economics.

I think that 2000 units isn't enough to meet initial demand. YSSMAN's probably right that you'll see dealer markups at launch. A year or so from launch, it might cool off a bit (like any car,) but it should sell. Any new car, in new territory especially, is a risk, but Nissan/Renault feels that the risks are acceptable. I mean, look at Cadillac. They changed their whole brand, and now are becoming very competitive with european competition, especially in America. (Granted, you folk in Europe weren't fooled by the reskinned Saab) Check out the New CTS, if you still doubt.

Or act as if everyone else is a GT-R fanboy and keep on slamming the car.

 

[YSSMAN]

I believe its FEWER than 2000 units in the United States every year for the foreseeable future. I do remember reading that it will be enough to where not even every Nissan dealer will get one, and I'm not certain which markets will be missing out...

My guess is that we (in Grand Rapids, MI) will get one at each of our Nissan dealers, and that will be it. Maybe not even that. Maybe we'll only end up with one at the newer Nissan dealer... Who knows?

If there is a situation like that in a lot of places, you can bet your ass that there will be $20K + markups on these cars, maybe even more. Our local Ford dealer has gotten one or two GT500 convertibles, both had $20K markups, and they're far more "common" than the GT-R will be in the 'States.

In all honesty, the dealer markups throw the "value" portion of the GT-R equation completely out the window...

 

[Jim Prower]

Well, as long as Uftring has at least one for the Peoria-area auto show this spring...and they let me sit in it.

Demand for this car, like many products, will initially be high, so markups wouldn't surprise me. I can hope they sell enough to satisfy demand, eventually.

Besides, do the automakers get a cut of dealer markups, or does that all go to the dealers?

 

[Perfect Balance]

Renault doesn't own Nissan.

 

[Jim Prower]

Renault doesn't own Nissan.

Business piece says otherwise.
So does Renault.

It's called an "Alliance," but they own each other, and have a say in what they both do. Seen the Versa? Doesn't It look a bit Vel Statis-ish? A little Megane-ey? Hell, Nissan's recent grille resembles Renault's look, reversed.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Business piece says otherwise.

They own 38% (44% according to wikipedia) of Nissan. That isn't owning Nissan. That's not even half of Nissan.

It's an alliance.

 

[Jim Prower]

Fah, Renault has a bearing on what Nissan does. That should be enough.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Fah, Renault has a bearing on what Nissan does. That should be enough.

I influenced your post. I own you dood.

Meh, wrong thread wrong time. I'll stop now.

 

[Leonidae]

GT-R goes on diet!

 

[Dave A]

They own 38% (44% according to wikipedia) of Nissan. That isn't owning Nissan. That's not even half of Nissan.

It's an alliance.

They're the majority share holders, Renault hold the right to tell Nissan what to do and how to do it, whether they do or they don't isn't an issue. The simple fact is that Renault own more of the company than anyone else. Nissan have a legal right to buy a returning stake in Renault, but as it stands Nissan do not own a majority stake in Renault, they only own %15.

It is a partnership, but the partnership consists of Nissan being in Renaults control.

 

[YSSMAN]

Besides, do the automakers get a cut of dealer markups, or does that all go to the dealers?

Thats all dealer profit, straight-up. That $69,850, for the most part, goes back to Nissan. It would be my estimate that IF every Nissan dealer sold it at that price, they'd maybe make $5500 off that sale (using the old 8% above cost estimate).

And if you're a Nissan dealer, I'm positive that $25,500 sounds a lot better than $5500 is people are willing to pay for it...

 

[Scaff]

They're the majority share holders, Renault hold the right to tell Nissan what to do and how to do it, whether they do or they don't isn't an issue. The simple fact is that Renault own more of the company than anyone else. Nissan have a legal right to buy a returning stake in Renault, but as it stands Nissan do not own a majority stake in Renault, they only own %15.

It is a partnership, but the partnership consists of Nissan being in Renaults control.

Spot on.

As someone who was working for Renault at the time the bought the controlling share I can most certainly vouch for the dominance of Renault over Nissan.

Keep in mind that Renault forced Carlos Gohn onto Nissan as the COO, until that point no non-Japanese person had ever sat on the Nissan board, let alone run the company. This combined with the implementation of the Nissan Revival Plan saw Gohn vilified in Japan. With supplier contracts that had stood for decades renegotiated, factories closed and large scale redundancies many shareholders threatened to sell and a number of board members quit.

None of this would have been possible is Renault had not been in control of Nissan, and with Gohn now in charge of Renault you can bet that the balance of power firmly remains on the French side of the table.



Regards

Scaff

 

[Tornado]

Renault doesn't own Nissan.

Porsche owns 31% of VAG, and its pretty obvious who runs that company. Nissan-Renault is no different.