2009 Nissan GT-R - Zero tolerance for asshattery

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

(and it was a 911 Turbo that Nissan allowed people to drive back to back with the GT-R at the pre-launch of the car at the Nurburgring GP circuit - source Evo 113).


Regards

Scaff

having now read that article it seems rather strange that for its claimed power and low drag rating and the fact its geared aggressively that it seemed to struggle to do more than 170mph considering the 997 turbo was able to do several 201mph runs

its also rather unsettling to read that the car had a habit of tramlining and following the imperfection and cambers in the road(which you could say is a typical british road and that the car seemed to be unsettled,it was great when the microbus tried to chase him though

 

[Jim Prower]

So, in a way, I was right.

Thus, it could be surmised, the GT-R boys in Europe can count a little bit on Renault's experience selling cars in that region.

 

[Kent]

Personally, I'm starting to feel like you could sell this car with any company or salesman fronting the effort.
Why? Isn't it obvious?
Well let's just assume it's not obvious... Here's a good reason for what I say...
Anyone keeping up with the boys at BestMotoring?
Anyone know what there next big battle is going to be?
Well I've just seen footage of the R35 GT-R getting ready to take on a 997 GT3, another 997 of some kind, and a Gallardo (possibly a super leggera).

So, with BM testing a battle against a group like that how could the 70,000 GT-R not be an easy sale. Of course with that said, I'm almost sure the GT-R facing off in the new BM vid will be the Evo model and not the base model.

The only thing that disappoints me about this is that the C6 Z06 isn't involved and I'm sure they will get around to testing the Z06 against the GT-R right about the time we see the ZR-1 get released.

In any case I'm not putting BM past their usual tricks. In the footage preparing for the battle I noticed that all the cars were left unattended while Tsuchiya went out and did practice laps in teh GT-R... Cany anyone else say Cold Porsche brakes and tires vs warm GT-R brakes and tires?
Best Motoring, when will you stop being so predictable!?

 

[Scaff]

having now read that article it seems rather strange that for its claimed power and low drag rating and the fact its geared aggressively that it seemed to struggle to do more than 170mph considering the 997 turbo was able to do several 201mph runs

its also rather unsettling to read that the car had a habit of tramlining and following the imperfection and cambers in the road(which you could say is a typical british road and that the car seemed to be unsettled,it was great when the microbus tried to chase him though

It is a good article and wel worth a read.

On the tramlining side of thing, a lot of cars do it to some degree particularly when running very low profile tyres with a stiff suspension set-up and/or run-flat tyres.

My 320i M-Sport can tramline with the best of them from time to time, and the R34 was quite notorious in this regard as well. That said it may bet a suspension tweek for European markets, its not unusual for cars to get changes made to the set-up to meet the needs and tastes of the target market.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Pyrelli]

having now read that article it seems rather strange that for its claimed power and low drag rating and the fact its geared aggressively that it seemed to struggle to do more than 170mph considering the 997 turbo was able to do several 201mph runs

This is just a passing comment but most speedometers give out readings at around 10% higher than the actual speeds, as such that would mean that the GT-R was in fact likely to have been struggling to do a speed just over 150mph, whilst the 997 was near enough reaching its quoted top speed [193mph]. Very strange indeed given its apparent performance (and if the inaccuracies apply)

Incidentally, I make the judgements based on an older issue of evo (where they took a Carrera GT on the autobahns and tested for Vmax) and standard regulations for speedometers.

Pyrelli

 

[McLaren]

They own 38% (44% according to wikipedia) of Nissan. That isn't owning Nissan. That's not even half of Nissan.

It's an alliance.

And Porsche is in alliance with Volkswagen right? I mean, it must be an alliance (agreement between two or more parties, made in order to advance common goals and to secure common interests), since Porsche obviously using VAG-tech. in their cars to meet their goals....[/sarcasm]

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

This is just a passing comment but most speedometers give out readings at around 10% higher than the actual speeds, as such that would mean that the GT-R was in fact likely to have been struggling to do a speed just over 150mph, whilst the 997 was near enough reaching its quoted top speed [193mph]. Very strange indeed given its apparent performance (and if the inaccuracies apply)

Incidentally, I make the judgements based on an older issue of evo (where they took a Carrera GT on the autobahns and tested for Vmax) and standard regulations for speedometers.

Pyrelli

yeah i know speedos over read im just quoteing from what the article in the magazine says but it does seem rather strange that they found it runs out of power at 170mph (thier best was 180 and they had to slow for traffic) whereas the porsche had no problems reaching an indicated 201mph considering nissan claim of 473bhp(or 550ish) and with the drag factor and the way its geared.Another thing in the article.

As cars roll off the line they are driven straight onto a rolling road for testing(without being strapped down!),before heading outside to an on site test track.

The first 2 laps are completed at 60mph with the throttle wide open and left foot on the brake.This is to brutality beds the brakes in.Then four standing starts in quick succession test the transmission and refine the clutch plates,while a couple of trips up and downa bumpy surface("like english country road") test the suspension.After all of which tha GTR is apparently ready for its no owner to drive.

yeah i bet thats really good for the car!

 

[Scaff]

yeah i bet thats really good for the car!

You may be rather surprised to know what gets done to cars before they leave a factory.

Rumour has it (and I have heard this from a number of people in the Ferrari network) is that every car will get a rather similar treatment before being signed off, with the Enzo getting the harshest treatment of the full Launch Control standing start at both the factory and the import centre.


The brake pad one doesn't surprise me either, depending on the exact make up of the OE pads that may well be what is needed, riding the brakes for a few laps is quite normal for bedding in race or semi-race spec pads.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Jim Prower]

Explains why the Mitsubishi plant (Formerly DSM) in Normal has that equipment. For Galants, Eclipses, and Endeavours. and Sebrings and Avengers.

 

[McLaren]

yeah i bet thats really good for the car!

Nissan doesn't have time to spend 2 days running a car around a track like McLaren of Ferrari does.

You'll find GM & Dodge also get customer Vipers & Z06s suited in the same way. They're not killing the car, they're breaking in everything faster. They'll easily replace any parts they damage in the testing process free of charge.

 

[SwitchFX]

I personally wouldn't spend $70,000 USD for a Skyline. Many reasons including that my wife would cut my manhood off. I just don't need the boy racer look at my age, sure I'd love to own this monster. Hell, who wouldn't want to own a beastly race car like car. If they came with a luxury version of this car, I might buy it. Well that and if it was a spacious 4 door.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Nissan doesn't have time to spend 2 days running a car around a track like McLaren of Ferrari does.

You'll find GM & Dodge also get customer Vipers & Z06s suited in the same way. They're not killing the car, they're breaking in everything faster. They'll easily replace any parts they damage in the testing process free of charge.

thing is people like mclaren,ferrari etc invite you along to watch your car being tested,i doubt nissan do that and imo 4 launchs sounds abit much as well as 2 laps of a track with wot and on the brakes,even edmunds said they didnt have much confidence in the clutch lasting after just 2 launchs and german testers have managed to melt the brakes after a couple of laps of the nurb GP.

i havent read GM and dodge doing that,all ive read is that they will blue print your engine for you but if you have proof?

how keen would you be if you came to me looking to buy my car and i told you "well its seen the track and drag strip a couple of times." would you still want to buy it not witnessing exactly what it had went through?

 

[Div is back]

thing is people like mclaren,ferrari etc invite you along to watch your car being tested,i doubt nissan do that and imo 4 launchs sounds abit much as well as 2 laps of a track with wot and on the brakes,even edmunds said they didnt have much confidence in the clutch lasting after just 2 launchs and german testers have managed to melt the brakes after a couple of laps of the nurb GP.

i havent read GM and dodge doing that,all ive read is that they will blue print your engine for you but if you have proof?

how keen would you be if you came to me looking to buy my car and i told you "well its seen the track and drag strip a couple of times." would you still want to buy it not witnessing exactly what it had went through?

Steel brakes. Will it have Ceramic option?

 

[McLaren]

thing is people like mclaren,ferrari etc invite you along to watch your car being tested,

They don't invite you at all. You have to make an appointment with them & they'll let you see the car being built for that day.

i doubt nissan do that

Because Nissan doesn't have the time to let all the GT-R owners come see their cars. They have to get the other cars out as fast as possible. Their building-per-day numbers are going to be higher than the Ferrari's.

and imo 4 launchs sounds abit much as well as 2 laps of a track with wot and on the brakes,even edmunds said they didnt have much confidence in the clutch lasting after just 2 launchs and german testers have managed to melt the brakes after a couple of laps of the nurb GP.

But do you have any solid evidence Nissan is putting every part in a position that it'll fail when the driver gets it? Every sports car company does tests like these. If a part fails, they will replace and re-do the test. That's why the tests are there.

i havent read GM and dodge doing that,all ive read is that they will blue print your engine for you but if you have proof?

Search yourself or find out why GM has a proving grounds. It isn't just there for kicks.

how keen would you be if you came to me looking to buy my car and i told you "well its seen the track and drag strip a couple of times." would you still want to buy it not witnessing exactly what it had went through?

This is such an unfair statement. Nissan isn't going to say "Your car has just seen the track & the drag strip a few times." They're going to tell you what Ferrari will tell you.

The whole to-do list of their tests. They'll tell you pretty much everything it went through to make sure you know your car wasn't just dumped on a track and called "Tested" on the data documents.



EDIT*
US still gets screwed over with the GT-R even though we finally just received it.
http://www.gtchannel.com/content.php?cid=13122

 

[Jim Prower]

and the ECU's uncrackable?

Oh, that's just great...people are gonna have to build standalone units just to see what the damn thing can do...

then again, 156 is faster than almost anyone needs to go.

(that being said, some tuner should figure it out...or fool it another way.)

 

[Kent]

I actually like the idea of limits that are disolved once you get on a track (by use of GPS). However, with that said, are you guys kidding or something?
I mean, people cracked the iPhone and the Xbox, you really think it's going to be impossible to crack what Nissan has come up with?
Companies like Apple put everything into creating uncrackable programs yet they still get cracked... Now here's Nissan building an uncrackable ECU to the GT-R and there's concern?

Unless Nissan hired a whole new group of people from a company like Symantec or Apple then I'm going to say the ECU will be cracked (for sure) within one year of the release of the production GT-R.

Who knows, maybe I'll be wrong, but I doubt that!

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Steel brakes. Will it have Ceramic option?

no

Every sports car company does tests like these.

proof? im sure theres alot of sports car companys out there so it might take you some time to find proof for every one.

They don't invite you at all. You have to make an appointment with them & they'll let you see the car being built for that day.

point still stands,you can witness it being put through the tests.

Search yourself or find out why GM has a proving grounds.

why you made me have to search out stuff for you.GM have proving grounds for thier own cars not customer cars unless you have proof.

Nissan isn't going to say "Your car has just seen the track & the drag strip a few times."

but they have still abused my car without my knowledge.

and the ECU's uncrackable?

from what ive read with relation to the ECU's,its hard to change certain parts of it,such as making more boost,changing air/fuel etc.when remapping other cars tuners usually back up the stock map so if something does break you can put the stock map back on and take it back to the garage claiming it broke if they think youve played with it and plug in a laptop and find the stock map instead of the tuned one,im guessing nissan have a programme which doesnt let back up the stock file or replace it,but again nothing is uncrackable.

I actually like the idea of limits that are disolved once you get on a track (by use of GPS). However, with that said, are you guys kidding or something?

i think thats a lie,if you watch the video with the mines GTR you see them hacking into it to disable the limiter.

 

[Scaff]

thing is people like mclaren,ferrari etc invite you along to watch your car being tested,i doubt nissan do that and imo 4 launchs sounds abit much as well as 2 laps of a track with wot and on the brakes,even edmunds said they didnt have much confidence in the clutch lasting after just 2 launchs and german testers have managed to melt the brakes after a couple of laps of the nurb GP.

i havent read GM and dodge doing that,all ive read is that they will blue print your engine for you but if you have proof?

how keen would you be if you came to me looking to buy my car and i told you "well its seen the track and drag strip a couple of times." would you still want to buy it not witnessing exactly what it had went through?

You can doubt that Nissan would allow you to watch the car being built, but if the Japanese factory is anything like the one in Sunderland then you would be wrong. Nissan are well known for an open approach to factory visits and certainly when I worked for Renault/Nissan the factory had a team who gave guided tours of the Sunderland plant to anyone who wanted.

You are of course free to speculate about four launches being too much, but quite honestly if this is the set-up and check process that the engineers recommend then I don't see a massive issue with it.

As for not buying a performance car that had been tested and bedded in at the factory by a test-driver, well I would be totally the opposite. Sorry but if I'm about to run a car with any serious level of performance then I want to know full well that its been well bedded in and tested.

To be honest the running in process for cars can be quite brutal, take the following ...

Power Seating
After the motor has been brought to working temperature, it should be driven off, short shifting through the gearbox until you are in top gear. Drop the speed down to the lowest it will reasonably pull away in top gear. Then accelerate hard for a few seconds and then snap shut the throttle and coast for a few seconds. Do this fifteen times as a minimum. Accelerating hard, but only using low revs, pushes the rings hard onto the bores. By then snapping shut the throttle, oil is then dragged up to wash the bores clean. Keeping the revs low will eliminate the chance of glazing the bores.
Running-In
Now the motor needs to be run in for at least two hours. You must not use more than 80% of the engine revs. Vary the speed, short shift, and do not hold it at constant revs. The engine is supplied from the factory with mineral oil for running-in purposes.

and

Bedding-In Brakes
The car comes fitted with carbon metallic brake pads. To bed in the brakes and achieve maximum stopping power, a film of carbon must be transferred to the discs
Gently apply brakes 6 to 8 times at medium speed. Increase speed to simulate race conditions, and apply brakes hard a further 6 to 8 times.
Allow brakes to cool for 15 minutes. Do not apply brakes whilst stationary during cooling down period.

Source - http://www.radicalsportscars.com/range/sr4/2006 Radical SR4 Owners Manual.pdf

...now keep in mind that's the process for a highly strung, high revving race engine that needed regular rebuilds. Keep in mind that the limit of 80% of full revs is around 8,000rpm and as you can see its still quite a brutal process.

You may also find the following of interest in regard to bedding in pads and rotors...

http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm

...again a rather brutal sounding process.

However once you start to understand exactly why and what is involved in these kind of process' you may understand why I don't personal have much surprise or horror for the Nissan process and why I say its a lot more common than you might think (because it is).


Regards

Scaff

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

You may also find the following of interest in regard to bedding in pads and rotors...

http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm

...again a rather brutal sounding process.

Regards

Scaff

i would expect that but that doesnt say anything about riding the brakes while on WOT

Source - http://www.radicalsportscars.com/range/sr4/2006 Radical SR4 Owners Manual.pdf

...now keep in mind that's the process for a highly strung, high revving race engine that needed regular rebuilds. Keep in mind that the limit of 80% of full revs is around 8,000rpm and as you can see its still quite a brutal process.


Regards

Scaff

again a select few companys but still waiting for mclaren to back up his claim of all sports car companys doing it.

 

[Scaff]

i would expect that but that doesnt say anything about riding the brakes while on WOT

It may well be that Nissan are combining valve bedding (WOT) with brake pad bedding (riding the brakes), you should also take into account that different brake manufacturers will recommend differing process's. Mine was simply illustrating that these process' are very brutal sounding if you are not aware of the logic behind it.

again a select few companys but still waiting for mclaren to back up his claim of all sports car companys doing it.

Are you honestly expecting him to spend his time finding proof for every single manufacturer of sports cars? If so then I have to say that's a rather unrealistic level of proof you are asking for, and I would have to say that I hope you are happy that any claim you make in the future be subjected to the same burden of proof.

If people are able to demonstrate that an illustrative number of companies do this, then that should be more than enough, I've already demonstrated that at least one manufacturer and one brake manufacturer carry out brutal sounding set-up and bedding process'.

I certainly could spend most of Christmas putting together tens (if not more) of links to other manufacturers and suppliers to keep illustrating the point, but to be honest I don't expect it would change your thoughts at all. What you describe as a brutal process that you believe is abusing the vehicle I consider to be quite commonplace for cars of this type (hell I bed my own pads in a similar manner to the Stop-Tech recommendations).


Regards

Scaff

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

=

Are you honestly expecting him to spend his time finding proof for every single manufacturer of sports cars? If so then I have to say that's a rather unrealistic level of proof you are asking for, and I would have to say that I hope you are happy that any claim you make in the future be subjected to the same burden of proof.

yes i am considering hes said to me several times in this thread to provide evidance to back up my claims,if he claims that every sports car company do this then i would expect him to provide proof of this to back up his claims,i have to put up with this burden of proof before hence why i am asking for it.

i know about Stop-Tech's bedding in as several of my friends have Stop-Tech's fitted to thier Leons,but several 60mph stops(which i dont consider as "abusing" a car) is different from riding the brakes with WOT and they dont meantion "valve" bedding but i guess that could have been lost in the translation as most people claim is what happens when interviewing or talking to the test drivers in this thread

 

[McLaren]

proof? im sure theres alot of sports car companys out there so it might take you some time to find proof for every one.

Sorry, I'm not going to provide proof to someone who's trying to be a smartass and knows exactly what I mean.

point still stands,you can witness it being put through the tests.

No, you can only witness it being built. Ferrari only allows the highest of value customers (Enzo, F40, Formula 1) to see their car being tested on the track. In fact, the last time there were any owners seeing their new car being tested were a few Enzo owners & the guy who bought the Formula 1 Ferrari.

why you made me have to search out stuff for you. GM have proving grounds for thier own cars not customer cars unless you have proof.

Because you always seem to think you don't need to. The Z06 follows procedures very similar to the Viper.

This is just part of the Viper's testing.

Every Viper is also "roll tested," which involves running the car at speed, in place, on special rollers right at the assembly center while the car is a "hot rolling chassis" minus all body panels. It is driven through all six speeds of its transmissions, up to 90 mph, in order to validate the proper functioning of all systems under actual driving conditions.

but they have still abused my car without my knowledge.

How can you prove it's been "abused". As far as Nissan or any other company will tell you, that's done for your satisfaction. It's done so they know everything's working properly and so you don't start pushing it and something breaks.

Besides, what would you do about? You can't sue them, it's in their fine print. Give the car back even though there's a 99.9% chance it's perfectly fine?

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Sorry, I'm not going to provide proof to someone who's trying to be a smartass and knows exactly what I mean.

so dont make claims that you cant back up

No, you can only witness it being built. Ferrari only allows the highest of value customers (Enzo, F40, Formula 1) to see their car being tested on the track. In fact, the last time there were any owners seeing their new car being tested were a few Enzo owners & the guy who bought the Formula 1 Ferrari.

again can you prove its only enzo,f40 and f1 owners that can see the car being tested?

This is just part of the Viper's testing.

that was done on rollers,never said i had an issue with it being tested on rolls and the part about it not being strapped down was a direct quote from evo magazine.

Besides, what would you do about? You can't sue them, it's in their fine print. Give the car back even though there's a 99.9% chance it's perfectly fine?

i wouldnt accept the car from them,i wouldnt buy a GTR anyway i would have an RS6 because it would fit my needs of sitting 4 adults comfortibly on a trip to the 'ring and has the space,plus the GTR wouldnt have a hope in hell of keeping up with it on an autobahn run.

 

[Scaff]

yes i am considering hes said to me several times in this thread to provide evidance to back up my claims,if he claims that every sports car company do this then i would expect him to provide proof of this to back up his claims,i have to put up with this burden of proof before hence why i am asking for it.

i know about Stop-Tech's bedding in as several of my friends have Stop-Tech's fitted to thier Leons,but several 60mph stops(which i dont consider as "abusing" a car) is different from riding the brakes with WOT and they dont meantion "valve" bedding but i guess that could have been lost in the translation as most people claim is what happens when interviewing or talking to the test drivers in this thread

OK this is starting to get silly, expecting anyone to provide that level of proof is simply absurd and I would say the same if I saw someone demand it of you.

The 60mph stop you describe are hard stops just short of lock-up and certainly well above 'normal' everyday driving, in addition Stop-tech clearly recommend additional stops form higher speeds for differeing pads.

Valve bedding is an engine bedding in process in which a car is run with WOT but low revs (as clearly described in the Radical piece I posted and linked to), and its not strange to imagine that both engine and brake bedding process be carried out at the same time.

I'm rather disturbed in all honesty as this now seems to have dissolved into an argument between two of you that has more to with each other than the thread itself. As such I am going to strongly suggest that you both agree to disagree on this point and move on (and I do strongly suggest that).


Regards

Scaff

 

[Tornado]

i wouldnt accept the car from them,i wouldnt buy a GTR anyway i would have an RS6 because it would fit my needs of sitting 4 adults comfortibly on a trip to the 'ring and has the space,plus the GTR wouldnt have a hope in hell of keeping up with it on an autobahn run.

Yes, because we have covered how they costs exactly the same and are in the same performance segment. And, what happens on the Autobahn run when the RS6 hits its 155MPH speed limiter and the GT-R blows by it? Or, when the GT-R out-accelerates it to 155?

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

I'm rather disturbed in all honesty as this now seems to have dissolved into an argument between two of you that has more to with each other than the thread itself. As such I am going to strongly suggest that you both agree to disagree on this point and move on (and I do strongly suggest that).


Regards

Scaff

im not argueing with you but that isnt exactly fair,hes said several times(and you can look back in the thread if you wish) that i had to provide evidance when i made a claim in which every sports car company do this to thier cars (which i do not believe in the slightest) he then continues to talk about companys doing this but again doesnt provide the proof to back up his claim yet in the past hes told me to provide proof countless times.

Yes, because we have covered how they costs exactly the same and are in the same performance segment. And, what happens on the Autobahn run when the RS6 hits its 155MPH speed limiter and the GT-R blows by it?

Audi's only hit the limiter in top gear

 

[Tornado]

Audi's only hit the limiter in top gear

Which is something I'm certain you have no knowledge of, considering the car isn't even out yet. Besides, one still is going to cost probably 15,000 pounds (at least) more then the other one and will accelerate slower.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Which is something I'm certain you have no knowledge of, considering the car isn't even out yet. Besides, one still is going to cost probably 15,000 pounds (at least) more then the other one and will accelerate slower.

but again why would i buy a car that doesnt fit my needs i meationed what i would want from the car and the GTR doesnt fit that and so what if it cost 15k more? if i wanted it enough that wouldnt matter to me and every audi in recent history ive had experience of (b5 RS4,B7 RS4,V8 RS6,V10 S6,V10 S8) they happily speed up to 280-300kph(theres videos on youtube to prove this) before the limiter kicks in so what would make you think the new RS6 will be any different? and considering EVO tested the GTR on the autobahn and it struggled at 170mph were as the V10 audi's have no issues getting to 186mph and im pretty sure the RS6 will give the GTR a good going over when up and running,but again why still talk about it i just planly said i would buy a RS6 over a GTR.

 

[Kent]

Which is something I'm certain you have no knowledge of, considering the car isn't even out yet. Besides, one still is going to cost probably 15,000 pounds (at least) more then the other one and will accelerate slower.

And I suppose you know all about it huh?

Why does everything in this thread (not just the last post) seem like one big fanboy argument. It seems like everything is personal and everything is "I know better than you."

Such a waste...

 

[Tornado]

And I suppose you know all about it huh?

About what? The rumors of the large price difference? The Audi's slower acceleration? The fact that they are in a completely different performance class? Most of which are well documented in this thread alone, and the other which I could easily get within 5 seconds. So yeah, I guess you could say that I do know about it.

but again why still talk about it i just planly said i would buy a RS6 over a GTR.

Because you once again brought the car into the discussion for no apparent reason, as if to prove some point that no one else knows you made or is so irrelevant that it was ignored the first time around.