2011 Chinese Grand Prix

Rue, The Outlaw is:

a) a joker;
b) an Alonso and/or Ferrari fan;

and ...

c) Superticious :P , he thinks Anghammarad's (another Alonso and/or Ferrari fan) posts saying "Alonso will win this comfortably" are in fact jinxing Alonso's chances :sly:

:lol: I'm not so superstitious really...although I definitely try to refrain from getting my hopes up too much nowadays.

My previous comments were more of an inside joke against one of Alonso's biggest fans (NOT...I'm being sarcastic again lol), who I remember last season continually posting his hopes to see an Alonso engine failure, tire failure, etc. etc. :sly: Of course Anghammarad's predictions were to be questioned and shot down by this guys (as they were last week), no matter how obviously far fetched they may be.
 
Alonso will win this comfortably.


Edit: I am quite surprised by the lack of reliability of both KERS and DRS. These systems cannot really be that complicated compared to other systems in an F1 car and yet Red Bull can't even get KERS to work at all and DRS fails for Ferrari after a few laps in Malaysia.

KERS is a very complex system, there is a bit more than just a battery pack and electric motor.

DRS should be relatively simple in F1 terms, I hear it was only Williams in Australia due to electrical issues, and Fernando Alonso in Malaysia because Martin Brundle broke it. ;)
 
MGP has also had numerous issues with the DRS a well:


Mercedes looks for DRS wing fix
Sunday, April 10th 2011, 04:55 GMT
Source: TotalF1

Nico Rosberg, Mercedes, Sepang 2011Mercedes GP believes tweaking its rear wing design to make airflow over it more stable will be key to resolving the problems it is having with the Drag Reduction System (DRS).

Both Nico Rosberg and Michael Schumacher have been hampered in the last two events with DRS issues - where the wing does not return to its ideal downforce-producing performance for corners after it has been opened up on a straight.

Mercedes GP team principal Ross Brawn believed that alterations to the rear wing design for Malaysia had cured the issue – but ongoing problems for his drivers have shown there is more work to do.

Explaining the problem his team is facing, Brawn said: "When you activate the rear wings, when the flap goes up, effectively the flow stalls. It separates off the wing. And when the flap comes back the flow reattaches and the wing works normally.

"We are having some situations where the flap comes back and the flow doesn't reattach immediately, so it takes a little bit of time before the flow reattaches.

"We have made some modifications since Melbourne and it looked okay in most of practice. But then it [the problem] seemed to come back again during qualifying.

"In Michael's case, on his qualifying lap, there were several corners where the flow was unstable, and it happened in Nico's case as well.

"Obviously with the qualifying mode you are operating the RFA [Rear Flap Adjuster] at many points on the track, whereas in the race you are operating it one point on the straight, so it is aggravated when we get into qualifying."

Brawn said he did not yet have an explanation for why the Mercedes GP wing appeared to be so inconsistent – although he suspected that crosswinds could be to blame.

"Separation of rear wings is not a new phenomenon because we all design the rear wings to be at the limit of attachment to get the maximum performance from it.

"We have seen many times that a rear wing will work perfectly okay, but in a crosswind or unstable condition you will get some separation, so we have got this separation going on and that is what caused the difficulties in qualifying.

"We thought we had solved the problem and, if you look at the car here, you will see on the lower wing there is a thing we call the ski ramp. It is an aerodynamic device on the middle of the lower wing to reduce the pressure on the rear wing.

"It has cost us a little bit of performance but we have made the rear wing much more stable, and that is what we have been running here. And up until qualifying we were quite comfortable with it, but we had a reoccurrence in qualifying."

Brawn believes that Mercedes may need to tweak its rear wing to gain less from the straightline speed boost of the DRS.

"That is the balance you are trying to strike," he said. "Obviously our wing has been designed with an evaluation of a huge number of elements, not just downforce/drag. It is stability, it is response rate. All those things are assessed in the windtunnel.

"But you are always trying to push close to the limits, and we are trying to gain as much performance from the wing being activated as we can.

"The gain in straightline speed for our wing is quite substantial but we have this bit of instability. It is not unique. It is not new – but it caught us out at the wrong time here."
 
Yes, but these are not a dad & son weekend racing for fun team. The budgets are huge and I really can't understand how something that in effect will mean the difference between a championship and a fourth place is not researched and implemented to it's fullest. But then again I'm in the aeronautical industry where a failure is not a good thing.
 
Yes, but these are not a dad & son weekend racing for fun team. The budgets are huge and I really can't understand how something that in effect will mean the difference between a championship and a fourth place is not researched and implemented to it's fullest. But then again I'm in the aeronautical industry where a failure is not a good thing.

Safety factors and extensive testing is a luxury the aeronautic industry can afford and the Formula 1 industry cannot.

Mercedes have tried to push the boundaries a bit too far by the sounds of it, they've had testing, but their wind tunnels cannot accurately simulate the cross winds, so its not surprising the odd thing slipped the net during winter testing, particularly if we are talking about cross winds which may not have been significant some days. Obviously engineering particularly in motor sport is one of balance and compromise, clearly Mercedes got the balance slightly wrong here.
 
Going to fire up F1 2010 game again and drive the circuit in China.

Will Red Bull's KERS work this race?

I did this yesterday.

And I too wonder if Red Bull will be able to solve their KERS problem in such a short time between races. I can definitely see someone other than Vettel/Red Bull winning this weekend if they continue to have issues with it.
 
V10+current aero package=:drool:
Don't forget about the slicks. Let's ignore that they're Pirellis for now.

I hope that Alonso will have a good day and that the Ferrari works, but I also hope for the same for Vettel, Webber, Hamilton and Button. I just want to see them duke it out for real when everything is working for everyone.
What about Massa?
 
I don't feel that Massa is a contender anymore. He seems to have lost the edge after his accident.

I really think it has more to with the fact Massa has a hard time being competitive if he doesn't feel he has the whole support of the team.

Picture yourself in his shoes, coming back from a serious injury to "Look who is going to be in a Ferrari for 2010!!!...oh, and Massa's back as well, now back to Alonso!!!".
 
That whole idea is nonsense IMO. To me it is just the usual gossip and speculation created by the media that everyone's read into and subscribed to...especially considering his teammate is considered to be the devil of F1 (and the guy who forever wrecked Massa's confidence) :lol:

At this high of a level of motorsports, you go out and do the best YOU can possibly do every single time you hit the track...you don't have time to think about nonsense (or let it get in the way) like popularity contest within the team or how much support you have...you would't make it this far in motorsports if you were that mentally weak (or lacked that much self confidence & inner fight) to begin with. At the end of the day, Massa has all the equipment and people behind him in order to race with Alonso on equal terms. Even if woke up tomorrow and the entire team revolved around him, I can't see this all off sudden magically turning him into a contender, or finding him .4 in qualifying on a race to race basis, or the pace in the race to Challenge Alonso consistently.

Regarding Massa's lack of pace - I think it's a simple case of Massa either not being the same after his accident, or the car (and tires) not suiting his style...particularly on a consistent basis. I don't think he's ever had the talent or adaptability of someone like Alonso anyway - we've seen how poor he is in the rain (which can only be summed up to a lack of basic driving talent). When everything works for Massa he can be a very quick driver as we've seen glimpses of here and there since his return (what would explains this? Only weekends where he feels the full support of the team?)...but that seems to be few and far between nowadays :indiff:
 
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I think if RBR doesn't get KERS working they might not be able to hold the lead in the beginning. I'm not sure if Vettel will still be able to pull a win, but I'm really interested in seeing how he performs in traffic and battling for position after last year where he kind of screw things up a bit
 
I really think it has more to with the fact Massa has a hard time being competitive if he doesn't feel he has the whole support of the team.

Picture yourself in his shoes, coming back from a serious injury to "Look who is going to be in a Ferrari for 2010!!!...oh, and Massa's back as well, now back to Alonso!!!".

Massa had plenty of chances to show his worth against Alonso before team orders came into it. Otherwise - why didn't they force him to let Alonso through at Melbourne 2010? Quite clearly, he did have the support of the team but he isn't the same man anymore...or perhaps Raikkonen inflated his reputation.
Although I will agree it will be difficult for him psychologically to comeback with the team like it is now.

That whole idea is nonsense IMO. To me it is just the usual gossip and speculation created by the media that everyone's read into and subscribed to...especially considering his teammate is considered to be the devil of F1 (and the guy who forever wrecked Massa's confidence) :lol:

At this high of a level of motorsports, you go out and do the best YOU can possibly do every single time you hit the track...you don't have time to think about nonsense (or let it get in the way) like popularity contest within the team or how much support you have...you would't make it this far in motorsports if you were that mentally weak (or lacked that much self confidence & inner fight) to begin with. At the end of the day, Massa has all the equipment and people behind him in order to race with Alonso on equal terms. Even if woke up tomorrow and the entire team revolved around him, I can't see this all off sudden magically turning him into a contender, or finding him .4 in qualifying on a race to race basis, or the pace in the race to Challenge Alonso consistently.

Regarding Massa's lack of pace - I think it's a simple case of Massa either not being the same after his accident, or the car (and tires) not suiting his style...particularly on a consistent basis. I don't think he's ever had the talent or adaptability of someone like Alonso anyway - we've seen how poor he is in the rain (which can only be summed up to a lack of basic driving talent). When everything works for Massa he can be a very quick driver as we've seen glimpses of here and there since his return (what would explains this? Only weekends where he feels the full support of the team?)...but that seems to be few and far between nowadays :indiff:

Its kind of hard to ignore when your team is crowding around your teammate, putting the better parts on his car and listening to his advice, not yours. Of course, we cannot prove this does or does not go on, but to say that Massa is weak-minded if he can't perform without the support of the team is pretty ignorant at best.
Are you really saying you would be able to ignore such tactics and simply drive?

Of course Massa probably has the support of some of the team, but there will be little things like who gets which parts and strategic decisions which can easily mess with your head. I don't imagine its easy to motivate yourself for each race weekend when you know the team will order you to move over for Fernando.

As always, the reality is probably half way, a little bit of over-inflated reputation versus Schumacher and Raikkonen, a little bit of "losing his touch" and a little bit of "not having the support of the team".
 
Add me to the vote for unlimited KERS and DRS... or at least fifteen seconds worth of KERS per lap.

Having your pace both into and out of corners vary by such huge amounts should add a lot of skill to the equation. not to mention the varying balance as the DRS affects downforce and rear end grip.
 
One of the things the FIA is looking at doing with KERS in the future - from next year, that is - is the strategic allocation of it. When a driver crosses the start/finish line, his KERS will replenish, but if he chooses not to use it for that lap, the next time around, his KERS will replenish again, giving him twice as much in reserve than he would normally have.
 
Massa had plenty of chances to show his worth against Alonso before team orders came into it. Otherwise - why didn't they force him to let Alonso through at Melbourne 2010? Quite clearly, he did have the support of the team

This.

Massa didn't perform to Fernando's level on any type of consistent basis when they first started their partnership, and he had the perfect opportunity to show his worth on a even playing field...so I must ask, what was the reason for his lack of performance early in the year? Personally I don't know why it's so hard to accept tthat it was simply down to a fundamental lack of talent (relative to Alonso) or tire issues (as he and the team mentioned numerous times throughout the year).. Also I must ask, what is the reason for the few flashes of brilliance we saw from Massa in 2010? I think it was all down to the tires and Massa having a bit better luck on those rare occasions....because I can't see how he would all of a sudden gain the confidence overnight to match Alonso over the course of a weekend, and then have it wisked away the next race.

Ever since Hockenheim this whole BS story has begun about how Massa has lost his form and confidence because of the favoritism towards Fernando within the team, despite the fact that he was consistently getting beaten before then with no real explanation besides the tires not working for him. That whole excuse that it's a lack of support/confidence just doesn't add up.

Its kind of hard to ignore when your team is crowding around your teammate, putting the better parts on his car and listening to his advice, not yours. Of course, we cannot prove this does or does not go on, but to say that Massa is weak-minded if he can't perform without the support of the team is pretty ignorant at best.
Are you really saying you would be able to ignore such tactics and simply drive?

I never said "without" the support of the team...that's stretching things a bit to say the least. Besides that, when you are behind the wheel of a F1 car doing 200mph, pulling 5g's, toggling dozens of switches, adrenaline flowing while sustaining a heart rate of around 200bpm, you don't have much time to think about such nonsense. Not only that, but I'd sure bet that Massa is using every bit of his skill and mental strength (maybe some of this has been lost since the accident) to prove to the team and to everyone else that he is every bit as good as his teammate. He really has no other option but to do this if he wants equality in the team throughout the season.

Of course Massa probably has the support of some of the team, but there will be little things like who gets which parts and strategic decisions which can easily mess with your head. I don't imagine its easy to motivate yourself for each race weekend when you know the team will order you to move over for Fernando.

That order would only happen (in the 2nd half of last year) in the rare circumstance that Alonso was directly behind Massa, so Massa still had a good opportunity to get great results (and possibly win) and to just as importantly show his worth going into the 2011 season. The only reason he had to move over for Fernando was because of the Championship situation and the fact that it was in FERRARI'S (Massa is just another employee) best interest to back the driver who was the one with the only realistic (some people can't accept this word when it comes to this topic) opportunity of winning the Championship. From my perspective, once Massa overcome his initial reaction and outburst after Hockenheim I think he realized the importance of what he did, and more importantly that it was a necessary evil to help his teammate. I'm sure people within the team (and even Fernando most likely) have sat down and talked to him about what he did, and how much they respect him for that.

Last and most importantly, we didn't see Massa pulling over for Fernando at Malaysia (despite Fernando finishing just 3 tenths behind!) now that we have started a new year (and team orders are perfectly legal) and both are basically on equal footing. So is any future lack of performance going to revolve around Massa being Fernando's lap dog @ Ferrari? I sure hope not...

As always, the reality is probably half way, a little bit of over-inflated reputation versus Schumacher and Raikkonen, a little bit of "losing his touch" and a little bit of "not having the support of the team".

This is a much more reasonable then solely blaming it on the fact that he lacks some type of meaningful support (there's really not much evidence of this) within the team. I also believe the car (particularly getting heat into the tires) was a major reason for his lack of performance (particularly in qualifying which was oh so important last year). When the tires worked for him and he had the grip, he was able to give Alonso a good run for his money.
 
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Who pulls over for who is always based on what's in Ferrari's best interests. Massa only had to pull over for Alonso because he drove himself into the situation where Alonso had a better title shot. He also did the same for Kimi, and Kimi did the same for him, in previous seasons.

-

And whoever gets the most support will always be the driver with the better chance. Whether we like it or not, Alonso has the better chance than Massa. He simply has more speed, more of the time. He's more ruthless, more adaptable and more driven.
 
If webber had kers working, he would have been FORMIDABLE in Malaysia, 4th was a stunning result and I'm extremely happy with the prospect of Webber clawing his way back up the standings.

One thing is for certain though, Mark is, and allways will be, a dreadful starter:grumpy: Even If he had KERS on at the start, it wouldnt have made much difference, he had a lot of wheel spin. Oh well, I guess he has a trigger happy right foot.
 
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Add me to the vote for unlimited KERS and DRS... or at least fifteen seconds worth of KERS per lap.

Having your pace both into and out of corners vary by such huge amounts should add a lot of skill to the equation. not to mention the varying balance as the DRS affects downforce and rear end grip.

The difference is that the kers and DRS increase acceleration, which in turn, brings them to the rev limit quicker. The longer spent on the rev limit, the higher the demand placed on the engine... They still only have 8 engines to last 19 (or 20 if Bahrain gets rescheduled) grand prix weekends. This is the major downside to kers and DRS.
 
Who pulls over for who is always based on what's in Ferrari's best interests. Massa only had to pull over for Alonso because he drove himself into the situation where Alonso had a better title shot. He also did the same for Kimi, and Kimi did the same for him, in previous seasons.

And whoever gets the most support will always be the driver with the better chance. Whether we like it or not, Alonso has the better chance than Massa. He simply has more speed, more of the time. He's more ruthless, more adaptable and more driven.

Is it not against the F1 rules for one driver to allow his team mate to pass due to team orders?
 
Why?

Ferrari is just tell Massa to stop to let alonso win, just like they did with in the Austrian GP in 2002.
I think they said it was too difficult to police. After all: Alonso is faster than you, can you confirm you understood the message
 

Everyone used it anyway. Ferrari were just a bit too obvious. Remember how Vettel's engine mysteriously lost power for just enough long time to let Webber pass last season when it looked like Vettel was out of the running. (Of course it backfired and Vettel beat Webber in that race anyway but it was as obvious a team order as anything Ferrari did)
 
The rule was only brought in after 2002 after The blatant team orders in Austria caused a bit of an outcry from fans and the media but team orders have always been a part of the sport and always will be.
 
If Ferrari had their way, Austria 2002 would have been less brazen. Rubens Barrichello was initially supposed to move over much sooner, possibly making it look like he had a problem so that Schumacher catching him seemed genuine. But Barrichello refused to comply, and it wasn't until they threatened his future with the team - Rubens has never said exactly what they told him, but has implied as much - that he moved over and let Schumacher through.

Unlike Alonso on Massa in Germany, though, it seems Schumacher was never consulted on the move and was only made aware of it after the race had finished.
 
It has always been legal for a driver to voluntarily, on his own initiative, pull over to let a teammate (or anybody else, for that matter) pass. What was illegal was teams ordering a driver to do so.

My take on DRS/KERS is:
You have a throttle. Use it whenever and wherever you feel is appropriate.
You have a brake pedal. Use it whenever and wherever you feel is appropriate.
You have a steering wheel. Use it whenever and wherever you feel is appropriate.
You have a shifter. Use it whenever and wherever you feel is appropriate.
etc... Why shouldn't that apply to DRS/KERS as well?
 
Oh no, not the "team orders" / "Ferrari = evil" drama all over again. :rolleyes:

John Surtees was champion the year I was born (1964), by one single point over Graham Hill. Wouldn't happen if Bandini, in the other Ferrari, didn't let him through. And I'm glad for Surtees, still today the only F1 and (the equivalent to) MotoGP champion.

I just checked this dramatic championship ending, and learned something I didn't know ... earlier in the race Bandini also crashed into Hill's car, effectively putting him out of contention (title seemed to be in Clark's hands for a while).

I can only imagine the outcry in this forum (and the hundreds of pages of fanboy nonsense in the autosport forum :D ) if a similar thing happened today.



So, sorry for the offtopicness, but this is how the MEN from BRM back in 1964 dealt with the events. If F1's history doesn't interest you, I'm sorry:

The inquest

Ferrari number 2 driver rams main team opponent out of contention. Ferrari number 2 driver lets team leader through to collect enough points to beat the opponent to the championship.

If that scenario had occured over the last few years most people would have had no doubt that it would have been a cunning and evil plan. Things were different in 1964 and I have found no indication in that the events of the race were considered "foul play". BRM and Hill just shrugged their shoulders and said try again next year. Sadly for the team there would not be another World Championship year.



Director of the BRM team Louis T Stanley from “Behind the Scenes” :-

“After the race accusations were slung around. Some said that Bandini had deliberately crashed the BRM as part of Ferrari tactics. I was reluctant to agree. By temperament Bandini was fiery and impulsive, a fearless driver but never guilty of doubtful tactics. To win a driver has to be on the razor-edge that separates success from disaster. Before we left the circuit Dragoni, Ferrari team manager, Forghueri chief engineer, and Bandini came to the pit and apologised. Bandini was in tears. Everyone shook hands. As far as BRM was concerned, the incident was closed……”

BRM Chief Designer Tony Rudd from “Tony Rudd:It Was Fun!” :-

“By quarter distance Clark was leading comfortably, Graham was third, Bandini fourth and Surtees sixth, which was fine for the Championship, but on lap 31 Bandini ran into the back of Graham’s car going into the long curve at the back of the pits and pushed him off. Brabham, in fifth place, who saw it all, said overtaking at this part of the circuit was totally out of the question. Jack’s comments were confirmed by the experienced Bernard Cahier and also the TV films. Graham limped into the pits, with the rather vulnerable exhaust tail pipes bent down around the gearbox. Willy levered them up with a jack handle. The other damage seemed to be cosmetic, so we sent him out again in 13th place. It looked as if the Championship had gone to Clark who was pulling away from Gurney and Bandini, with Surtees now fourth. Graham worked up to 10th but the incident had damaged the throttle-cross shaft, which eventually broke and that put him out of the race and the Championship. It looked as if Clark and Lotus were 1964 World Champions. Graham and I agreed that it was no good lodging a protest, it would not change anything and it was not the way we liked to go racing……………
Mauro Forghieri, Ferrari’s Chief Engineer came to commiserate and apologize. We were absolutely besieged by the Press. I said I did not think Bandini did it on purpose, he was just a bit stupid. All I wanted to do was to forget about it and prepare for 1965. Nearly all the journalists pointed to his tactics against Richie (Ginther, Hill’s BRM team-mate) at Monza, which could have caused a major crash. On my way up to my room in the hotel, who should I share the elevator with but Bandini, who was very apologetic and said we had been good to him when he drove the Centro Sud BRM; the last thing he wanted to do was to deprive us of the Championship. There were numerous phone calls to and from England; including Sir Alfred, and Mr and Mrs Stanley, who were unable to come to Mexico. They all agreed it was best to forget it, even though according to the regulations we had until 9 p.m. to lodge a protest but, as I said, what difference will it make? At the Prize Giving the mechanics plied me with whisky as its effect of making me quarrelsome was well-known!”



Graham Hill from his book “Graham”

“……….. But I lost the whole World Championship in 1964, one of the years when I was runner-up, through another driver making a mistake and running into me during the final Championship race in Mexico. You could say it was bad luck — but I suppose you could say I shouldn’t have been there at that particular spot at that precise moment. However, I was there and he was trying to overtake me in a hairpin. He’d had a couple of goes at it, but the last time he just overcooked it — went out of control and thumped me. It bent my exhaust pipes up and I had to come into the pits. I lost so much time that I finished well down in the race - which was won by Surtees with a one point lead.
That was that. It had happened and nothing I could do or say would alter it. That’s the way I tend to see things when they have gone wrong. There’s no point in worrying about it, or all the other things that happened time and time again to rob me of winning races. I don’t look back and, this way, I have few regrets. Hopefully, I learn from these setbacks but I apply them forwards. Basically, if you look forward things tend to get better. Because we all live in hope and if there’s no hope there’s no life and no point in living.”

Source: http://members.madasafish.com/~d_hodgkinson/brm-64mex.htm
 
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