2012 Grand Premio Petrobras do Brasil

[Wardez]

Why have I not watched that show until now? That was hilarious. Also it might just be me, but I think I see some subtle refferences to Lewis Hamilton's move next season.

haha, subtle reference? That was Checo at the end. Pretty funny how they make it out like Lewis is lost in "the matrix" or something. I'm a big Perez fan so Ron being in the show and saying, "Hm, this might work out rather well," was pretty sick.

Although on the same token, Ron's been a jerk toward Lewis lately so I kind of don't care... at least the Bond villain moniker suits him haha.

 

[homeforsummer]

Although on the same token, Ron's been a jerk toward Lewis lately so I kind of don't care... at least the Bond villain moniker suits him haha.

Has he? I'm not even sure how much control Ron has in the race team any more. I'd even go as far as saying that it's been a lack of Ron about which has increasingly vexed Hamilton and led to him jumping ship. Between Ron and Anthony Hamilton, I reckon Hamilton had the father figures he needed a few years back to keep him focused. Lately, that hasn't seemed to be the case.

 

[BHRxRacer]

So Hulkenberg slips and gets a drive through penalty, while Vettel takes out TWO cars in the first lap and gets nothing? Oh, and it wasn't an oil flag when he overtook Kobayashi. It was oil+yellow, then green then plain yellows all the way until the first corner.

Drivers of the day: Hulkenberg, Schumacher and Massa

 

[Wardez]

Has he? I'm not even sure how much control Ron has in the race team any more. I'd even go as far as saying that it's been a lack of Ron about which has increasingly vexed Hamilton and led to him jumping ship. Between Ron and Anthony Hamilton, I reckon Hamilton had the father figures he needed a few years back to keep him focused. Lately, that hasn't seemed to be the case.

He ditched him in Austin, going to an Exxon executives meeting rather than swinging by Hamilton's going away party. Then he chose to stay home rather than attend Hamilton's last race in Sao Paulo. Seems like he's just being really overly dramatic about all of this, I don't know if he feels betrayed or what but he needs to get over himself.

Lots more here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ed-Lewis-Hamiltons-McLaren-goodbye-party.html

And yes I know the Dailymail's not exactly the most illustrious source but all of the stuff in the article as far as the course of events has been confirmed albeit the article displays some speculation on the part of the writer.

 

[Nessy]

Has he? I'm not even sure how much control Ron has in the race team any more. I'd even go as far as saying that it's been a lack of Ron about which has increasingly vexed Hamilton and led to him jumping ship. Between Ron and Anthony Hamilton, I reckon Hamilton had the father figures he needed a few years back to keep him focused. Lately, that hasn't seemed to be the case.

Maybe. I agree having Ron and his father around did give him focus, but of late?, i don't think his focus has been in question at all, I think he was focused on trying to win the WDC this year, but due to different circumstances... it just didn't pan-out that way. The only error of his judgement this year was the whole (twitter) rear wing debacle, and i think that was born out of frustration more than anything.

As for that Vettel interview... just confirms to me what kind of person Vettel is, (regardless of whether he said it in jest or not), though his attitude really doesn't surprise me. Typical Vettel (imo).

 

[homeforsummer]

He ditched him in Austin, going to an Exxon executives meeting rather than swinging by Hamilton's going away party. Then he chose to stay home rather than attend Hamilton's last race in Sao Paulo. Seems like he's just being really overly dramatic about all of this, I don't know if he feels betrayed or what but he needs to get over himself.

I dunno. I'm prepared to give benefit of the doubt to Ron on this one. I'm well aware he isn't the easiest person to work for, but he has done rather a lot for Lewis in the past, and the situation for the last year or so has been fairly complicated.

Maybe. I agree having Ron and his father around did give him focus, but of late?, i don't think his focus has been in question at all

I agree. Hamilton has had his head screwed on a bit tighter recently and it's been paying off for him. In reality, it's only the car which has let him down over much of the season since Spa, rather than himself.

However, 2011 was a bit of a joke, and I think it was because Hamilton lacked stability. He's still a young guy and they all need support. Remember how scrappy Vettel was in 2010 - I'm fairly sure Horner worked hard to calm him down a bit as he went from being quick and on/off through 2010 to simply quick in 2011.

 

[Nessy]

I agree. Hamilton has had his head screwed on a bit tighter recently and it's been paying off for him. In reality, it's only the car which has let him down over much of the season since Spa, rather than himself.

Myself being a big Hamilton fan, i just hope he can carry over that same focus to next year, i know he's not perfect (no driver seems to be), but for me, he's shown quite a lot of class this year when considering some of the bad luck he's had.

PS. ^ I agree with regards to 2011 season.

 

[RodrigoDLL]

So Hulkenberg slips and gets a drive through penalty, while Vettel takes out TWO cars in the first lap and gets nothing? Oh, and it wasn't an oil flag when he overtook Kobayashi. It was oil+yellow, then green then plain yellows all the way until the first corner.

Drivers of the day: Hulkenberg, Schumacher and Massa

Watch the f*ing replay, Alonso fanboys! I am not for either of them (actually dislike both as carachters, but admire as drivers), I just love racing. It is impossible not to see from heli camera that Senna comes from waaay behind to pass a Force India and overshoots, Vettel was only doing his corner in the racing line and is hit almost from behind (front wheel on sidepod). If someone is to blame it is Bruno, but I call it racing incident (as I think of Hulkenberg/Hamilton).

 

[Centura]

How I see Vettel gaining 15+ positions in 10 laps.


He spins and gets damage.

Everyone else pits for Inters a bit early. Slower then they were by around 1s a lap. Vettel on his tyres in his car were faster by the tune of 1.5s a lap when everyone was on inters. And at that point of the race 1st to last were separated by around 20-25s. So gaining around 15s by tyre strategy.

I believe the decision to stay out is due to the fact he lost a lot of time and the team taking a punt and saying "Well we may as well chance it".

And fair play to them it worked. And that's my opinion on how he made up the positions. I may very well be wrong as there was so much going on, but that's what I made of it and I would be happy to find out how he actually did do it if I'm wrong.

As far as I know, Kimi was the only one that pitted very early for Intermediates.

 

[RodrigoDLL]

It's looking more and more likely that it's going to be dry. I hope everyone that said earlier this week; "OMG IT'S GOING TO RAIN ON SUNDAY" have learned their lesson.

It was the same thing in 2011. Saturday, after qualifying, the forecast said that there was a very high chance of rain before/during the race. Guess what? It didn't rain, at all.

Lol, cant stop laughing...

 

[BHRxRacer]

Watch the f*ing replay, Alonso fanboys! I am not for either of them (actually dislike both as carachters, but admire as drivers), I just love racing. It is impossible not to see from heli camera that Senna comes from waaay behind to pass a Force India and overshoots, Vettel was only doing his corner in the racing line and is hit almost from behind (front wheel on sidepod). If someone is to blame it is Bruno, but I call it racing incident (as I think of Hulkenberg/Hamilton).

Senna didn't overshoot anything, he was right on the apex. If Grosjean had done the same thing he would've been executed by the stewards.

 

[homeforsummer]

Watch the f*ing replay, Alonso fanboys! I am not for either of them (actually dislike both as carachters, but admire as drivers), I just love racing. It is impossible not to see from heli camera that Senna comes from waaay behind to pass a Force India and overshoots, Vettel was only doing his corner in the racing line and is hit almost from behind (front wheel on sidepod). If someone is to blame it is Bruno, but I call it racing incident (as I think of Hulkenberg/Hamilton).

In fairness to Senna, although he came from a large distance back, it didn't really look like he was going to overshoot:

​

Nor was Vettel on the true racing line - he came out from very wide and cut in quite sharply.

As you say in your last sentence, it was a racing incident. Senna came in from a large distance, one from which Vettel had little hope of seeing him. And Vettel cut across more sharply than Senna would have perhaps expected, given how much traffic was around. Shared responsibility, I'd say.



Incidentally - change your attitude. Nobody mentioned anything about Alonso in the comment you quoted, so there is no reason to call people "Alonso fanboys". Immediately saying "I'm not a fan of either" doesn't vindicate you, either. It's the F1 equivalent of saying "I can't be racist, I have a black friend".

 

[Centura]

Lol, cant stop laughing...

Uhm, okay. Sure. I still stand by what I said.

 

[RodrigoDLL]

Incidentally - change your attitude. Nobody mentioned anything about Alonso in the comment you quoted, so there is no reason to call people "Alonso fanboys". Immediately saying "I'm not a fan of either" doesn't vindicate you, either. It's the F1 equivalent of saying "I can't be racist, I have a black friend".

It was just the message I quote to enter the discussion, I was not saying the person I quoted was a fanboy. I was just amazed that this kind of **** was backed by a lot of people...

 

[RodrigoDLL]

Uhm, okay. Sure. I still stand by what I said.

If you state that a race is going to be dry 1 hour before the start with clouds all over the place, I think you have not watched a lot of races át. Interlagos. Although you were right to say that monday was to early to predict.

 

[Centura]

If you state that a race is going to be dry 1 hour before the start with clouds all over the place, I think you have not watched a lot of races át. Interlagos. Although you were right to say that monday was to early to predict.

One week ahead of the race, people was staring at the forecast, saying it will be wet. One hour ahead of the race, it's likely it will be dry. Guess what? It's wet. You can't believe the forecast at Sao Paulo, which is why I said what I did.

 

[homeforsummer]

It was just the message I quote to enter the discussion, I was not saying the person I quoted was a fanboy.

Then in future it's perhaps wise to re-consider how you "enter discussions" and who you quote when doing so. Accusing people of something irrelevant to the discussion doesn't really reflect well on your conversation skills.

I was just amazed that this kind of **** was backed by a lot of people...

None of which has anything to do with Alonso fanboys. It's entirely possible to hate Alonso and still see how responsibility for the accident could be in part down to Vettel.

Having seen Senna's on-board, posted above, does that change your view at all? Senna certainly isn't out of control - if anything, his braking only appears late since everyone on the outside of him was panic-braking early to avoid Kimi. It's also quite apparent that from Senna's perspective, Vettel's car comes out of nowhere.

There's a good reason for that of course - it's likely Vettel was at an angle in the corner where he simply couldn't see Senna at all.

Though whether that absolves him from responsibility or not is a different matter - as others have pointed out previously, it's up to drivers in traffic to anticipate that there may be other cars in their vicinity. Diving towards the apex à la Vettel could be construed as a little careless. And it wouldn't be the first time he'd been careless in traffic.

 

[RodrigoDLL]

Then in future it's perhaps wise to re-consider how you "enter discussions" and who you quote when doing so. Accusing people of something irrelevant to the discussion doesn't really reflect well on your conversation skills.

Your interpretation of my message, unable to see that I was joining the conversation from there reflects well on you reading skills...

Maybe Senna would not have overshot so much to go out of the track, but the fact he was at the apex doesnt mean he was right. He was opposite to the racing line in a very very early apex carrying a lot of speed into the corner and would "spread out" at corner exit (possibly out of track, but that we cannot say).
If I am Vettel, I am reaching the braking point, I look at my mirrors, there is a force india right behind at reasonable distance, I do my normal racing line. If someone judges his braking badly from behind, what can I do? How could Vettel act differently? It would be the same as saying Alonso should have predicted Grosjean flying over him at Spa...

 

[nealcropper]

It would be the same as saying Alonso should have predicted Grosjean flying over him at Spa...

It's not the same at all. To predict a car flying through the air? Or to predict a car next to you, at the apex of a turn on lap 1? Which is easier to predict?

Your post is nonsense.

 

[wajdi1977]

Now it was doesn't matter if it was a Vettel fault,who cares guys!move on......

 

[RodrigoDLL]

It's not the same at all. To predict a car flying through the air? Or to predict a car next to you, at the apex of a turn on lap 1? Which is easier to predict?

Your post is nonsense.

You call what you see on the heli camera "next to you" and my post is nonsense? I am having trouble posting pictures, but watch the replay. When Raikkonen locks badly right behind Vettel (thus already late at breaking point), Senna is nowhere near him, he is behind a Force India, which is still behind Raikkonen... some 4 car lenght minimum... I dont think that is NEXT to him.

 

[Pagey279]

Your interpretation of my message, unable to see that I was joining the conversation from there reflects well on you reading skills...

Yeah....no it doesn't. Not sure where you got that one from, especially in light of his profession.

How could Vettel act differently? It would be the same as saying Alonso should have predicted Grosjean flying over him at Spa...

Vettel could have and should have left a cars width between him and the apex. It would have minimised the risk of contact, the move would have been less eratic, Senna would have seen him, leading him to act accordingly.
And ultimately Vettel probably wouldn't have had to fight his way through from the back of the pack, also Senna and Perez would have got past turn 4.

 

[homeforsummer]

Your interpretation of my message, unable to see that I was joining the conversation from there reflects well on you reading skills...

You replied to this:

So Hulkenberg slips and gets a drive through penalty, while Vettel takes out TWO cars in the first lap and gets nothing?

Directly with this:

Watch the f*ing replay, Alonso fanboys!

If you weren't speaking directly to BHRxRacer, then don't quote him. It isn't my reading skills at fault, it's your posting style. Which continues to be poor.

And you've still not explained where the "Alonso fanboys" comment came from, if not aimed directly at the person you quoted.

If I am Vettel, I am reaching the braking point, I look at my mirrors, there is a force india right behind at reasonable distance, I do my normal racing line. If someone judges his braking badly from behind, what can I do? How could Vettel act differently? It would be the same as saying Alonso should have predicted Grosjean flying over him at Spa...

No, it's nothing like that at all. If anything, it's more like... wait for it... Vettel when he clouted Senna at Abu Dhabi. Which strangely, Vettel fans seemed to think was okay back then, even though in that instance Vettel stuck his car on the apex knowing that Senna had to turn across him, because Senna had a car directly on his outside.

It strikes me that someone who claims to be "a fan of the racing" rather than one particular driver might be able to see, when offered differing camera angles, that Vettel's move could equally be construed by some as contributing to the accident. Apparently, this isn't the case.

Double standards, is what it is.

 

[nealcropper]

You call what you see on the heli camera "next to you" and my post is nonsense? I am having trouble posting pictures, but watch the replay. When Raikkonen locks badly right behind Vettel (thus already late at breaking point), Senna is nowhere near him, he is behind a Force India, which is still behind Raikkonen... some 4 car lenght minimum... I dont think that is NEXT to him.

Yes your post is none sense. You are comparing a unforeseeable, and uncontrollable event, to one that could have been avoided if Vettel had used a bit of spacial awareness. It's already been said, he should have left more room. It's lap 1 for crying out loud, if it had been lap 15 then yeah, cut across, the probability of someone being there is a lot less on lap 15.

Also the point of my argument wasn't who was to blame, it was the stewards reaction, or lack thereof.

 

[JacksHerer]

haha thanks for that, I didn't know this series existed (I had noticed and not liked the Tooned text on the rear spoilers, thinking it was chavy text speak 'Tuned' and not realising it was carTOONED lol, doh!).

Just watched them all and the making of it clip lol

+1 for congrats to Vettel, I did wonder how much betting went on Alonso when Vettel got clipped

 

[Luminis]

You guys haven't seriously been arguing about this damn incidient for a dozen pages, have you? Looking at the replay, what I would be saying is that:

1.: Vettel wasn't specifically turning onto Senna.
2.: Vettel didn't have a reason to be turning on him, there's no motive there.
3.: Vettel didn't get any advantages out of it, he put himself at a disadvantage, in fact.

So, yeah, I think it's understandable if the stewards were like

 

[nealcropper]

So, yeah, I think it's understandable if the stewards were like

It's understandable? How the hell do you think that. The incident ended up in a retirement and the current WDC in last place and effectively out of the title hunt. I honestly can't see how anyone could have any hope of defending the stewards on that one.

For me the blame isn't the main focus, it's the stewards doing nothing.

 

[m8h3r]

How did I know that was coming in tooned.

 

[wajdi1977]

I don't want to say anything else about that crash..............No,it wasn't a Vettel fault and say what do you want,it wasn't his fault!!
I want to congratulate with Massa because he is a nice guy and I'm happy that he finally doing well with the Ferrari after a black period:tup:

 

[nealcropper]

Ok I didn't want to reply to you, but
You leave me no choice.
You start your post off with this:

I don't want to say anything else about that crash

Then immediately say this:

..............No,it wasn't a Vettel fault and say what do you want,it wasn't his fault!!

Do you not see the pure stupidity within your post?