2012 Nissan GTR [0-60: under 3 seconds]

[Dan_]

Well the press also said the Mclaren MP4-12c has no soul, and Mclaren is a european brand name.

The press usually label high tech cars as that and frankly, that's rubbish.

The Lexus-LFA is another example, it has a soulful engine, so they nitpick on the styling. If the journo like the styling, he will nitpick on the brand tradition, and then comes silly price comparisons and so on. Quality reviews are as rare as diamonds nowadays...

 

[niky]

You have a history of being very pro-GTR, so I'll offer a counterpoint. How long did it take for them to set that lap time? Did they spend a whole day tweaking setups?

IIRC, when Walter Rohrl sets his Ring times, he only goes out for a few laps and calls it a day.

Less pro-GTR than anti-conspiracy. It pains me to see wild accusations of misdoing hurled at Nissan over trivial details when the answer to how Nissan actually did what is already staring them right in the face. The GT-R is fast because it has a trick gearbox, a fancy AWD system, a ton of mid-range torque, great aerodynamics and sticky tires. Nothing more, nothing less. No magic "600 hp" button or racing tires disguised as street tires.

How many laps? Lord knows. Though it did take them enough laps to get to the moon and back to set their first "record" times. Not to mention the countless laps that they did with Lotus to develop the suspension after they first ran the car at the ring and found the handling unsatisfactory.

Despite always arguing on the "pro-GTR" side of these arguments... I still don't like it. Not because it lacks "soul"... which I'm not at liberty to comment on, since I haven't driven it on track... but because it's butt-ugly.

 

[Bigbazz]

I don't get their claims of the ring record with the GT-R since there have been a bunch of road cars that have gone faster, is it a hidden "Fastest GT type car" thing? I really like the GT-R, if I was in the market then it would be high on my list of possible cars. But as for the records and stats they claim, i was very surprised to see that the GT-R was not actually the production car record holder at Nordschleife, after all the boasting they had done about it.

 

[CodeRedR51]

But as for the records and stats they claim, i was very surprised to see that the GT-R was not actually the production car record holder at Nordschleife, after all the boasting they had done about it.

Wait, who said they were shooting for a production car record? Proof please?

They're in this against the 911 Turbo, and I'm sure they're only gunning for fast laps just to prove the car is the best bang for the buck on the market right now. Which it is, no doubting that.

 

[niky]

The big boys don't consider small sports cars like the Donkervoort as "production sports cars." It's not an official record, thus, but try telling that to Porsche and Nissan...

 

[Stotty]

Just because something isn't measurable, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The thing about fast cars is you can't drive them flat out all the time, so they have to reward in some other way for the rest of the time. So call it what you want, but feel/passion/emotion/soul is for me, one of the most important charachteristcs of a car.

 

[Bigbazz]

Wait, who said they were shooting for a production car record? Proof please?

They're in this against the 911 Turbo, and I'm sure they're only gunning for fast laps just to prove the car is the best bang for the buck on the market right now. Which it is, no doubting that.

A promise fulfilled

 

[Neal]

I tend to agree that machines can have a good and bad character or soul but it's often subjective and although it's very difficult to quantify it's even more difficult to argue it doesn't exist.

Or to put it another way...

"The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed." - Robert M. Pirsig


Anyways...a comparison video with the Corvette ZR1 'ring lap, both very impressive.

 

[niky]

Definitely, driving appeal does matter. Some initial tests indicate that the new GT-R does feel a bit better at less than full attack than the old one... but not having experienced it, I can't really comment.

-

I'm like that, too... I've driven some really fast machines, but outright speed has never been a good indicator of driving satisfaction.

 

[Horde_R35]

Just because something isn't measurable, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The thing about fast cars is you can't drive them flat out all the time, so they have to reward in some other way for the rest of the time. So call it what you want, but feel/passion/emotion/soul is for me, one of the most important charachteristcs of a car.

No doubt about that mate, but what do you feel when you see a GTR?

 

[Stotty]

How do I feel when I see one? Hmmmm.... have to say, the GTR doesn't give me the same warm feeling I get when I see a AM V8V or a 911 GT3... the GTR is just too big and cumbersome to my eyes.

 

[CodeRedR51]

No doubt about that mate, but what do you feel when you see a GTR?

As I'm a complete car guy and oogle at the sight of even something slightly good like an EVO X or STi, a GT-R is certainly high on my list.

 

[Greycap]

The "soulless" thing sounds very much like trying to come up with something negative when nothing else can be found. If the reviewers admitted that the GT-R

- gets off the line quicker than most supercars
- goes around corners faster than most supercars
- does it with noticable ease compared to most supercars
- is better daily drivable than most supercars
- seats 100% more people than most supercars
- and to top it off, costs a fraction of most supercars and even less than some sports cars

they'd have to admit that Nissan has built a real world beater. But as they just can't say that a company as "lowly" as Nissan has made a car that has just about no flaws in it when it comes to the actual driving performance they'll play the "soulless" card. If a sporty company such a Ferrari, Lamborghini or even Chevrolet (mostly making trucks and rebadged Daewoos actually) came up with such a car - with a $200.000+ price tag on it - it would be met with praise for its handling and comfortability. The last time I checked things like comfortability in street driving and the ability to be pushed hard on a race track without a continous fear of creating a fireball were highly desirable traits but seemingly in this case they mean the car is soulless.

 

[Stotty]

The GTR has had plenty of praise from the car magazines, and most rate it very highly overall.

And no one doubts its outright pace, both in a straight line or round corners.

But it isn't a great daily drive - it's ride is rock hard, making it very uncomfortable, and its 15 mpg average is shockingly bad. Plus it doesn't 'seat 100% more people than most Supercars' - like a 911, its rear seats are unusable for anything other than very small kids or luggage.

Just because it's fast and had a huge amount of mechanical grip does not make it a great drivers car. A great drivers car needs to reward in more ways than just outright pace. Steering feel for example, or handling, are far more important than a few tenths to 60mph or a coupe of seconds advantage over a lap of the 'Ring.

Now the GTR is around £10-15k more expensive, and the reviewers have become used to it's performance, they are starting to notice faults or weaknesses that were overlooked when it first came out due to its incredible performance to pound ratio.

It's interesting that most of the fans of the GTR tend to be form the 'Playstation generation'. When you're young, and you don't have the money to actually buy something in this price bracket, it's easy to be idealistic and be entirely focused on performance. When you actually have the financial means to buy a car in the £70k bracket it's outright pace is only one of a number of factors that influence your purchase decision.

 

[CodeRedR51]

When you actually have the financial means to buy a car in the £70k bracket it's outright pace is only one of a number of factors that influence your purchase decision.

If I had that kind of money spend on a car, I would only look at a sporty car. Also, if you made enough money to afford something in that price range, you can probably afford to purchase more than one car. Yes I would buy a GT-R, but I would also buy something cheaper to drive as a daily.

And I don't care if it's a hyped up video game car, I respect it for what it is.

 

[Horde_R35]

Plus it doesn't 'seat 100% more people than most Supercars' - like a 911 (wich is , its rear seats are unusable for anything other than very small kids or luggage.

Your jealous because the GTR has beaten your beloved 911, arent you?!

 

[Jim Prower]

Your jealous because the GTR has beaten your beloved 911, arent you?!

Now, now, Let's not troll. Us GT-R fans aren't THAT kind of people!

;P

 

[niky]

Fast and grippy don't mean anything in terms of driver involvement. Which is why many reviewers rate the MX-5 very highly despite its lack of punch and grip.

That's the thing with the GT-R. It's fast, it's grippy... it's uncannily capable.

It also rides like a pile of rocks and sounds like a giant vacuum cleaner...

An M3 is much, much slower, but it has a lot more "soul" in it. The V8 ticks off the "aural entertainment" box, and it corners with balletic grace. That it loses traction (whether at the front end or the rear) a lot more easily than the GT-R makes it more involving and challenging to drive.

Which is why 99% of the magazine pictures of M3s you see have it sideways. I challenge you to find the 0.1% of GT-R pictures in the same pose... the GT-R just grips, grips, grips... then goes... a split-second before it's buried in the ARMCO.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I see your M3 and raise you a Boss Mustang.

 

[Keef]

I see your M3 and raise you a Boss Mustang.

In fact, Motor Trend's Mustang GT vs. M3 test rated the Mustang as the more fun driver's car. It still performs nearly as well, but the way it handles is more exciting.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

In fact, Motor Trend's Mustang GT vs. M3 test rated the Mustang as the more fun driver's car. It still performs nearly as well, but the way it handles is more exciting.

That Laguna Seca Boss 302 is a fine fine automobile.

 

[niky]

In fact, Motor Trend's Mustang GT vs. M3 test rated the Mustang as the more fun driver's car. It still performs nearly as well, but the way it handles is more exciting.

Bounce bounce slide?

Don't doubt it, though... The M3's steering isn't that great.

 

[Keef]

More like slide slide slide, as opposed to understeer understeer understeer.

 

[Horde_R35]

Fast and grippy don't mean anything in terms of driver involvement. Which is why many reviewers rate the MX-5 very highly despite its lack of punch and grip..

Of corse its RWD, it has 2 seats, it handles perfectly! The MX5 was a revolution when it 1st came because it was fun, cheap, light and all the car looked sporty! A true sports car! But how many light wheight cars are there with the same behaviour?! Its about having a good chassi and beying light!

It also rides like a pile of rocks and sounds like a giant vacuum cleaner... .

So does a ferrari and everybody loves them! I aprecciate ferraris but they are not my favourites! I can tell you that the Modena was one of the worst rides of my life...

Which is why 99% of the magazine pictures of M3s you see have it sideways. I challenge you to find the 0.1% of GT-R pictures in the same pose... the GT-R just grips, grips, grips... then goes... a split-second before it's buried in the ARMCO.

Thats the diference between drift and grip driving! I prefer grip! Some prefer drift! Diferent kinds of tastes.

I drove my friends 335d many times and his father 635d ( i bet its the same in the M3)and those steerings are fenomenal, progressive, light and gives you all the feel of the front and the rear of the car! Its all you can ever ask for on a steering wheel! One of the best wheels i handled!


About the GTR going sideways... have you seen this? (Soon i will drive my friends GTR that arrives in May, after that ill tell you how it was)

 

[MGS2 Snake]

Long live the GT-R.

Amen.

 

[Stotty]

Whilst thinking about the meaning of soul/passion (or whatever you may want to call it), I recalled a piece Chris Harris wrote for EVO, comparing the 458 and GT3RS. The final few paragraphs of the article capture exactly how I feel about driving in a way I don't have the eloquence to convey myself.

This is a key point in the defining characteristics of 458 and RS. They may not be direct rivals but they mark two potential paths for the future of effing fast cars: the deliberately interactive and the deliberately competent. They aren’t mutually exclusive, of course, because the Ferrari is still great fun and the Porsche is deceptively refined and useable, but their core characters are so different. I warmed to the RS more, mainly because it reminded me of what I look for in a car. I want to be a part of the action and I’m now surer than ever that greatness can be measured in the clarity of connection between driver and machine.

Does that make the Porsche the better car? It depends on your point of view. There’s no doubt that the 458 is a superior technical statement and that its spread of abilities shades the 911’s. You could use the 458 every day, its transmission is brilliant and the cabin is ideal for long distances (the optional carbon-backed seats are especially good). What it doesn’t deliver is as pure an interactive driving experience as the RS. Some will find the 911 a bore – too difficult, too demanding – but in reality its judgement of hardcore adrenalin rush and surprising useability isn’t that far behind the 458’s. This one has sat-nav, an iPod connector and electrically adjustable seats. It’s just not as refined as the Ferrari.

I prefer to summarise them like this. If you told me I had to drive one of this pair every day for the next 12 months, I’d take the 458. It’s a stunning achievement. But if you told me I could only drive one car for an hour during that same period, could only savour 60 minutes in a vehicle during a whole year, I would choose the GT3 RS. It’s a rush and it reminds us what driving is all about.

I know I'm likely to get the usual 'you're just a porsche fanboy' comments for posting this, but there are other far more accessible cars that demonstarte the same point... an early MX5, for example.

So although the 458 is a better car than the 911 in almost every measurable way (as would the GTR be, I suspect), that doesn't neccessarily make it a more enjoyable or rewarding car to drive, and for me, the interaction between car and driver is far more important than outright performance.

Long live analogue, Amen

 

[Jim Prower]

More like slide slide slide, as opposed to understeer understeer understeer.

Oh, thanks, Now the Jeremy Clarkson Beatbox is stuck in my head. "Powerslide, powerslide, powerslide, powerslide...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY9u0LxIWJk <- for those interested. not embedding, since that's enough off topic.

 

[Bigbazz]

Whilst thinking about the meaning of soul/passion (or whatever you may want to call it), I recalled a piece Chris Harris wrote for EVO, comparing the 458 and GT3RS. The final few paragraphs of the article capture exactly how I feel about driving in a way I don't have the eloquence to convey myself.

This is a key point in the defining characteristics of 458 and RS. They may not be direct rivals but they mark two potential paths for the future of effing fast cars: the deliberately interactive and the deliberately competent. They aren’t mutually exclusive, of course, because the Ferrari is still great fun and the Porsche is deceptively refined and useable, but their core characters are so different. I warmed to the RS more, mainly because it reminded me of what I look for in a car. I want to be a part of the action and I’m now surer than ever that greatness can be measured in the clarity of connection between driver and machine.

Does that make the Porsche the better car? It depends on your point of view. There’s no doubt that the 458 is a superior technical statement and that its spread of abilities shades the 911’s. You could use the 458 every day, its transmission is brilliant and the cabin is ideal for long distances (the optional carbon-backed seats are especially good). What it doesn’t deliver is as pure an interactive driving experience as the RS. Some will find the 911 a bore – too difficult, too demanding – but in reality its judgement of hardcore adrenalin rush and surprising useability isn’t that far behind the 458’s. This one has sat-nav, an iPod connector and electrically adjustable seats. It’s just not as refined as the Ferrari.

I prefer to summarise them like this. If you told me I had to drive one of this pair every day for the next 12 months, I’d take the 458. It’s a stunning achievement. But if you told me I could only drive one car for an hour during that same period, could only savour 60 minutes in a vehicle during a whole year, I would choose the GT3 RS. It’s a rush and it reminds us what driving is all about.

I know I'm likely to get the usual 'you're just a porsche fanboy' comments for posting this, but there are other far more accessible cars that demonstarte the same point... an early MX5, for example.

So although the 458 is a better car than the 911 in almost every measurable way (as would the GTR be, I suspect), that doesn't neccessarily make it a more enjoyable or rewarding car to drive, and for me, the interaction between car and driver is far more important than outright performance.

Long live analogue, Amen

This reminds me of the comparison between the Ferrari 458 and the Mclaren Mp4-12c.

The Mclaren is in every way faster and a greater technical experience but the reviewers say they would still rather the Ferrari for reasons similar to above. In both cases the reviewer is taking the lower performance and less refined car based on excitement he gets because of those reasons. The Porsche is likely not as well behaved and generally more difficult to drive.


The GT-R is well known to be easy to drive with massive ammounts of grip, so it is such that some people don't like it simply because it is good.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

2011 GT-R vs Porsche 911 Turbo S PDK

I can hardly wait for the next episode..