2014 GTP 24 HEURES DU MANS [13:00 UTC 12 JULY]

  • Thread starter AJ
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28/6 Event Update

1 - Timezones

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2 - Friend Requests

There is a known issue regarding new friends being unable to enter ‘Friends Only’ lobbies, which is why I brought up the issue at announcement, and have been sending out Friend Requests as soon as people have signed up.


3 - Final stint photo after final lap

- Please ensure that this is taken as soon as possible after your have completed your final lap.

- Stop off the track at Turn 1.

- Do not leave the track until instructed to do so.


4 - Guidelines for Lapping lower class cars/Being lapped by higher class cars


GT-S, when being lapped by GT-P or P1 - Keep you line & be predictable, once you see the proximity arrows, back off and let the car by, it will save you time.
GT-P, when being lapped by P1 - Keep you line & be predictable, once you see the proximity arrows, back off and let the car by, it will save you time.

GT-P, when lapping GT-S - Position your car on the side of the tack you are going to overtake. Overtake out of corners, not into them.
P1, when lapping GT-S or GT-P - Position your car on the side of the tack you are going to overtake. Overtake out of corners, not into them.

When being lapped by a car in your own class - you do not have to give way, but do not block.

Use common sense and everyone should be OK.


5 - Heavy vs Light Mechanical Damage


I am on the fence, and would welcome your feedback.


6 - 4 Hours Red Bull Ring Spielberg


Adding this event into the mix this weekend was in hindsight a bit ambitious. I am happy to run it next weekend as a final practice race before the big one. Please post below if you are interested.
 
Player 1
P1, when lapping GT-S or GT-P - Position your car on the side of the tack you are going to overtake. Overtake out of corners, not into them.
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That would work, if the classes were more powerful as they got higher. Since they are not, the place the faster classes actually have the advantage is into/through the corners. It is riskier, but unless you're going to revise the specs, again, then it's the only real option.

Player 1
5 - Heavy vs Light Mechanical Damage


I am on the fence, and would welcome your feedback.
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Heavy all the way.

If SRF is supposed to be allowed, it shouldn't be.

Also can we please just do a warm-up lap then go at start-finish line? It's just odd going from the pitlane.
 
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30/6 - Balance of Performance Update

Having listened to feedback, and based upon my own experiences at Silverstone and Spa over the weekend, it has become obvious that the current BoP is not working.

Higher class cars are having to take risks lapping lower ones, by either diving late on the brakes into corners, or not being able to take opportunities to go through, this is holding up both parties.

With any contact leading to a trip to the pits with ‘Heavy Damage’ on, this is also creating a lot of tension and frustration.

I’ve taken time today to completely redo the BoP with the aim of making the GT cars slower in a straight line, and relatively quicker in corners, as well as creating more of a lap time gap between the 4 classes.

As always I welcome your feedback.


View attachment 179184
 
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I'm thinking a Bop test on tracks that weren't Sarthe might not be completely accurate... But that's just my opinion. Doing a short (1H?) race on an upcoming Sunday with the more proficient drivers at the wheel might be a better indication. We kinda made a tune to be fast at Spa because we expected a fuller room. We'll be readjusting for Sarthe.

On the other hand, I'm not too upset about having a less powerful, but more stable car.

Ran into the problem of "invisicars" (at least for me) with two drivers, and accidentally destroyed one at Spa.

At Sarthe, heavy damage shouldn't be a problem unless you miss a braking point, someone else misses a braking point, or you lose concentration. Just be careful and pay attention to *other people's* braking points. Try hanging back 50-100m to see where they brake so you can put pressure on the next lap. It's what I try to do.

Also: LM cars will probably have shorter braking zones than the GT+ cars, and so on. Just keep that in mind on track. :P
 
AJ
30/6 - Balance of Performance Update

Having listened to feedback, and based upon my own experiences at Silverstone and Spa over the weekend, it has become obvious that the current BoP is not working.

Higher class cars are having to take risks lapping lower ones, by either diving late on the brakes into corners, or not being able to take opportunities to go through, this is holding up both parties.

With any contact leading to a trip to the pits with ‘Heavy Damage’ on, this is also creating a lot of tension and frustration.

I’ve taken time today to completely redo the BoP with the aim of making the GT cars slower in a straight line, and relatively quicker in corners, as well as creating more of a lap time gap between the 4 classes.

As always I welcome your feedback.


View attachment 178752
Click to expand...
I just think it's kinda ridiculous that the 908 gets a big power limit every time this happens.
 
I would like to know how you determined the BOP for the cars within each class? I was getting my doors blown off by the two gt500's at spa yet we now have even less horsepower (yes I know we are 50 kg lighter). Having to de-tune a power limiter to 75.1% is ridiculous. Your judging cars based off different tracks and different skill level of drivers. Makes no sense.

You set the requirements at the beginning for everyone to pick there cars. People chose their cars based on those regs. Now you go and change the regs after all the testing and tuning to the point that the car may no longer be competitive however your are locked into it based on the original requirements. Sorry but you should have thought about this before you posted the original reg's. Good luck to everyone
 
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I'm just going to make this point as it's happened to me a few times, please can everyone just talk about this with level heads player1 is trying to organise a very large event by himself and is no doubt trying to do the best job he can... Now with the responses to the bop they are coming across as though your pointing fingers and when your organising an event it does feel like those fingers are pointing straight at you, which is a horrible feeling, he has asked for feedback which means he's open to listening and maybe everyone should take a step back and look at what he is trying to do ( has anyone driven all of the cars in their class yet and given feedback about it?) or have you just driven your own cars and suddenly seen your car lose hp or gain kg?.... Of you want to answer the topic, take a step back and think about how it reads before you post it instead of jumping straight into "omg why have you done this?"

Keep up the work player1 ;)
 
1/7 Event Update

Morning everyone. As usual, thank you for your comments, I'd rather have people screaming blue murder than deafening silence.

Having said that I think I can address most of your concerns with some clarification and further information on how the latest BoP was reached.


1 - BoP testing was conducted at La Sarthe ONLY

Testing at any other track would be pointless due the the unique nature of the track. The only data taken from the Silverstone and Spa events was the inter class overtaking/lapping.


2 - BoP testing was conducted by me ONLY

I know I am not the fastest sim-racer, but I am competent, and very consistent. When BoP testing outright lap time is largely irrelevant, what is more important is that the relative lap times are....relative. All the cars I tested had minimum setup work; minimum downforce, brake balance, and gearing. All testing was done in an open lobby with the same conditions that we will see in the race. I took each car out for 5 lap stints, drove the same lines, and attacked the track in the same places. In earlier testing I took each car out for 2x10 lap stints for fuel and tyre testing in order to extrapolate stint length data. VMax (Top Speed) was also considered, now the classes have vastly different top speeds, as measured before braking for Forza Chicane; c200, c180, c170, respectively.


3 - Different BoP for Different cars

Please. Go test the other cars in your class, before making categoric statements. With this new BoP the cars within the classes are much more closely matched. Heres the math;

LM P1-L % change over previous BoP

AR8 = -0.9%bhp -0.0%kg
R18 = -0.9%bhp -0.0%kg
908 = -5.4%bhp -3.1%kg

LM P1-L new % differential

AR8 is
+4.5%bhp (908) +0.0%bhp (AR8)
+2.2%kg (908)+5.6%kg (R18)

908 is
-4.2%bhp (AR8) -4.2%bhp (R18)
-2.1%kg (AR8) +3.4%kg (R18)

R18 is
+4.8%bhp (908) +0.0%bhp (AR8)
-3.2%kg (908) -5.6%kg (AR8)

NOTES - here we have 3 different LMP1s from 3 different eras, and 3 different sets of regs. Naturally giving the cars the same weight and power is not going to be balanced.


LM GT-P % change over previous BoP

HSV = -9.9%bhp -0.0%kg
MF1 = -18.9%bhp -12.5%kg
GTR = -9.9%bhp -0.0%kg
TOY = -9.9%bhp +0.9%kg

LM GT-P new % differential

HSV is
+11.1%bhp (MF1) +0.0%bhp (GTR) +0.0%bhp (TOY)
+4.8%kg (MF1) +0.0%kg (GTR) +0.0%kg (TOY)

MF1 is
-10%bhp (HSV) -10%bhp (GTR) -10%bhp (TOY)
-4.5%kg (HSV) -4.5%kg (GTR) -4.5%kg (TOY)

GTR is
+11.1%bhp (MF1) +0.0%bhp (HSV) +0.0%bhp (TOY)
+4.8%kg (MF1) +0.0%kg (HSV) +0.0%kg (TOY)

TOY is
+11.1%bhp (MF1) +0.0%bhp (HSV) +0.0%bhp (GTR)
+4.8%kg (MF1) +0.0%kg (HSV) +0.0%kg (GTR)

NOTES - here we have cars from 2 classes; 90s GT1 and modern GT500. The GT500s have a lot of extra drag as they are not designed for this track.


LM GT-S % change over previous BoP

M3GT2 = -27.9%bhp -10.7%kg
SLSGT = -27.9%bhp -3.6%kg
LOTUS = -0.0%bhp +25.0%kg
NGT-R = -9.9%bhp -0.0%kg

LM GT-P new % differential

M3GT2 is
+0.0%bhp (SLSGT) +15.3%bhp (LOTUS) -20%bhp (NGT-R)
-7.4%kg (SLSGT) +38.9%kg (LOTUS) -7.4%bhp (SLSGT)

SLSGT is
+0.0%bhp (M3GT2) +15.3%bhp (LOTUS) -20%bhp (NGT-R)
+8.0%kg (M3GT2) +50.0%kg (LOTUS) +0.0%kg (NGT-R)

LOUTS is
-12.5%bhp (M3GT2) -12.5%bhp (M3GT2) -30.0%bhp (NGT-R)
-28.0%kg (M3GT2) -33.3%kg (SLSGT) -33.3%kg (NGT-R)

NGT-R is
+25.0%bhp (M3GT2) +25.0%bhp (SLSGT) +42.9bhp (LOTUS)
+8.0%kg (M3GT2) +0.0%kg (SLSGT) +50.0%kg (LOTUS)

NOTES - this is the most eclectic bunch of cars. GT3 cars will be naturally quicker than GT2 around Le Mans. The GT-R and SLS should be much more evenly matched than there are in the game, I can't really explain it. The Lotus has vastly better tyre wear and fuel consumption. This class has changed the most as it needed to not only be slowed down for the P1s, but also the GT-Ps.


4 - Slower is Faster

As @BionicDerp has pointed out, the cut in BHP has made all the cars more drivable. Some people were having traction issues last weekend, hopefully this change has had a side effect of curing that. All the cars now stick to the track like glue, I think everyone is going to be flat through Porsche Curves.


5 - Ethos of the event

Since the announcement I've made it quite clear that the idea was to allow people to choose the (race) car they want to run, and we will fit it into a class so that you have other people to race against.


6 - The dates are set, unless

People have booked time off work for this event, that date will not be moved without the agreement of every driver that has signed up.


7 - A final chance to test

Attendance and commitment to the practice races was frankly disappointing. There will be another this Saturday at Red Bull Ring, I think this is a good choice as it is a short track with a couple of long straights, and therefore should give a fair number of opportunities for cars to practice lapping and being lapped.

I don't want people get the stint photos or network driver changes wrong at Le Mans. If you do, and didn't turn up to any of the practice races...
If you really can't make Saturday, but want to run your own private race and send me the pics, that would be fine.


8 - The Start

Starting from the pits as we did in the practice races, maybe the fairest (random), cleanest, and quickest way of getting the race going.
I am looking into another solution, I get back to you when I've got something.





TLDR - Go test the other cars in your class, these figures haven't come out of thin air.
 
BionicDerp
I'm thinking a Bop test on tracks that weren't Sarthe might not be completely accurate... But that's just my opinion. Doing a short (1H?) race on an upcoming Sunday with the more proficient drivers at the wheel might be a better indication. We kinda made a tune to be fast at Spa because we expected a fuller room. We'll be readjusting for Sarthe.

On the other hand, I'm not too upset about having a less powerful, but more stable car.

Ran into the problem of "invisicars" (at least for me) with two drivers, and accidentally destroyed one at Spa.

At Sarthe, heavy damage shouldn't be a problem unless you miss a braking point, someone else misses a braking point, or you lose concentration. Just be careful and pay attention to *other people's* braking points. Try hanging back 50-100m to see where they brake so you can put pressure on the next lap. It's what I try to do.

Also: LM cars will probably have shorter braking zones than the GT+ cars, and so on. Just keep that in mind on track. :P
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Same opinion....
 
Race Start Idea: All LM go first, then the GT-P cars, then the GT-S cars to avoid a race-start scramble and possible crashes right out of the pits.

Idea 2: Everyone leaves the pits at once for a 160 km/h (100 mp/h) pace lap. Order determined by fastest laps set in open practice/qualifying before the race starts. Leave a gap between classes to prevent tangling. Race start determined by class leaders anywhere on the front straight after the start/finish line.
 
dangerzone641
I like the idea of having every teams fastest in one lobby and do a hour long race to see where all the cars are. This way everyone has their setup. Then @AJ can make a few adjustments and then see if things get better.
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Then it comes down to who can sandbag the best. I surely wouldn't show my full capabilities in a practice race.
 
Geeze guys....tone down the sand lot dogs routine. It is the ORGANIZERS responsibility to drive and evaluate cars with drivers he picks. That is how it is done. If that has not been done it MUST be done. You, the organizeR CAN NOT expect, much less trust, the actual participants to provide the inputs for BOP.
IMHO.
:rolleyes:
 
While it is impossible to miss the cries of persecution and unfairness, I for one hadn't actually driven another car so far so I thought I'd give them all a go this evening and see what the fuss was about.

At the risk of blowing my trumpet, I've done a few specs in this game and GT5 that proved to be fairly decent and with not only my team-mates but GORE as referees to my driving, I feel fairly secure as a reasonably accurate yardstick.

The test itself involved giving each car an identical set-up, with minimum aero for each car respectively at the new spec. Then taking each car and doing an outlap and two flying laps to get the tyres up to temperature, I recorded the laptime of the third lap and the speed at which I hit the brakes into the first chicane on the Mulsanne. I didn't have time tonight to do the GT-S class, I will do tomorrow, but in the meantime here is what I found:


TS030 3:28.5 208mph
Audi R8 '05 3:32.8 201mph
Peugeot 908 3:33.6 200mph
Audi R18 3:34.5 198mph *set-up not ideal

F1 GTR 3:49.6 182mph
GT-R GT500 3:48.4 180mph
HSV GT500 3:48.3 180mph
Supra GT500 3:49.9 183mph

*As mentioned I used a uniform set-up, while this more of less suited most cars, the R18 was a little too oversteery, so there is probably a decent amount of time to be gained through set-up work.

So all in all we have a 1.6s (0.7%) and 3mph (1.6%) difference between the GT-P class and a 4s (2.9%) and 10mph (5%) difference in laptime and speed in the LMP class, which falls to 1.7s (0.8%) and 3mph (1.5%) difference if you count the LMP-L class separately.

All of which is to say, this is easily within reach of set-up and driver skill improvement, for a solo effort and the short amount of time he's had to react to changing demands (which let's not forget he didn't have to), these specs are remarkably good and do not need adjusting for these classes to be balanced.

If anyone is still doubting I can provide video proof of the process, however you'll have to endure a bit of a delay while I rerecord and upload them.
 
dangerzone641
If you'd rather cheat and give your car a clear advantage rather than having a close and fun race, then so be it.
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I don't care one way or another about this race. I'm not running in it, both due to real life obligations and some of the unsportsman attitudes from this thread.

To much bitching and moaning over the tiniest little details. Its become more bothersome than enjoyable.
 
jonnyb1990
While it is impossible to miss the cries of persecution and unfairness, I for one hadn't actually driven another car so far so I thought I'd give them all a go this evening and see what the fuss was about.

At the risk of blowing my trumpet, I've done a few specs in this game and GT5 that proved to be fairly decent and with not only my team-mates but GORE as referees to my driving, I feel fairly secure as a reasonably accurate yardstick.

The test itself involved giving each car an identical set-up, with minimum aero for each car respectively at the new spec. Then taking each car and doing an outlap and two flying laps to get the tyres up to temperature, I recorded the laptime of the third lap and the speed at which I hit the brakes into the first chicane on the Mulsanne. I didn't have time tonight to do the GT-S class, I will do tomorrow, but in the meantime here is what I found:


TS030 3:28.5 208mph
Audi R8 '05 3:32.8 201mph
Peugeot 908 3:33.6 200mph
Audi R18 3:34.5 198mph *set-up not ideal
F1 GTR 3:49.6 182mph
GT-R GT500 3:48.4 180mph
HSV GT500 3:48.3 180mph
Supra GT500 3:49.9 183mph

*As mentioned I used a uniform set-up, while this more of less suited most cars, the R18 was a little too oversteery, so there is probably a decent amount of time to be gained through set-up work.

So all in all we have a 1.6s (0.7%) and 3mph (1.6%) difference between the GT-P class and a 4s (2.9%) and 10mph (5%) difference in laptime and speed in the LMP class, which falls to 1.7s (0.8%) and 3mph (1.5%) difference if you count the LMP-L class separately.

All of which is to say, this is easily within reach of set-up and driver skill improvement, for a solo effort and the short amount of time he's had to react to changing demands (which let's not forget he didn't have to), these specs are remarkably good and do not need adjusting for these classes to be balanced.

If anyone is still doubting I can provide video proof of the process, however you'll have to endure a bit of a delay while I rerecord and upload them.
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The Toyota is 4 seconds a lap faster than the second fastest car, and you say that nothing needs adjusting? Plus the fact that the Toyota is incredibly good on its tires.
 
Regardless of all this Flack of BOP, I want to announce that car number 68 from "I'll Owe You Won Racing" will be joining the ranks of the LM - GTS class. We are new to the 24 hour race format, but we plan on having a ton of fun throwing down laps while endlessly laughing about the things we do on track :-)
 
Mini Stiggy
The Toyota is 4 seconds a lap faster than the second fastest car, and you say that nothing needs adjusting? Plus the fact that the Toyota is incredibly good on its tires.
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They're in different classes (technically), you will have to ask @AJ if this is intentional. I agree it is the most out of place if they are meant to be equal, but even so it isn't an insurmountable difference to close with set-up changes.
 
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