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[LMSCorvetteGT2]

My dislike of Hamilton may be irrational, but it's only as irrational as some of the support that Hamilton gets. Look at Ted Kravitz, who spent most of the race insisting that Mercedes' plan was to have Rosberg and Hamilton swap positions - even after it was pointed out to him that Nasr had only done 40 laps on the soft tyre, therefore making Hamilton's projected 51 laps as unreasonable as Rosberg's projected 61. Why does it surprise you that there are some people who detest him as much as there are people who adore him?

"Mom yes I hit him, but I only did it cause he hit me last week, I know it sounds irrational but his hitting me last week was on the same level...so it balances out. You know mom, the whole ying yang."

You're justification of hate and admitting it's asinine but still deeming it fine, is just as bad as your clouded view of today's race.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

still deeming it fine

In that case, no-one should like or dislike any driver; not even a little bit, because then it might be unfair.

To you, my dislike of Hamilton might be irrational and asinine, but to me, there are very valid reasons behind it. I firmly believe that the appeal of the sport lies firmly in the way we see ordinary people who are capable of doing extraordinary things. We want to see drivers who are human as well as racing drivers. But looking at Hamilton, I don't see that at all. Look at him on track parade: the other drivers are grouped together, relaxing and pretty open - but Hamilton sits on his own, and answers questions defensively. When was the last time he was featured on the gridwalk? It's not just about how quick a driver is.

I have this friend who once asked me why I was so quick to smile. I said it was because I was happy; she said it made me look insincere. In her culture, a smile is a pretty intimate gesture, so to smile so frequently devalues it. For some reason, that really resonated with me. When you see Daniel Ricciardo smile, it's reflected in his body language and his tone. When you see Jenson Button messing around on the grid, he's visibly relaxed. But when Hamilton smiles, there's just the smile. There's nothing else, and so it comes across as insincere - which makes it harder for me to see him as human under the helmet.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

No it's irrational cause you said it yourself that it was, thus keep up the this procession is asinine. The end.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Is it irrational if I know it's irrational? After all, I just used reason to say "I wasn't using reason". Of course, if I am rational, why did I say that I was irrational? That, in itself, is irrational and brings us back to the first question - is it irrational if I know it's irrational?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Is it irrational if I know it's irrational? After all, I just used reason to say "I wasn't using reason". Of course, if I am rational, why did I say that I was irrational? That, in itself, is irrational and brings us back to the first question - is it irrational if I know it's irrational?

Same reason anyone that realizes in hindsight that they're being irrational when they put down their rose tinted glasses. It's not some great enigma, you parading on as though it is is becoming humorous. So you do have that going for you.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

No, I still think Hamilton bears responsibility, because the first rule of overtaking is that the burden of passing cleanly rests with the attacking driver, and I don't think that Hamilton was far enough ahead to say that he had the position. There have been plenty of defending drivers who have moved back across the way Rosberg did.

Like I said, the only way Hamilton could have made the pass work was to drive around the outside of Rosberg in a corner where you can't go side-by-side around the outside.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I find your argument contradicting compared to your past arguments.

You have often called Lewis a dirty driver for pinching an outside opponent and said he should give them racing room, the opponent has the right to be on the outside (to attempt to maintain position).

When the situation is reversed like it were in this race, you are now saying that Lewis shouldn't have been on the outside because he wasn't entitled to any racing room or to attempt to maintain his position, you have said he should expect to be forced off of the track.


So which is it? Does the driver on the outside have entitlement to racing room or not?

 

[Viperzed]

No, I still think Hamilton bears responsibility, because the first rule of overtaking is that the burden of passing cleanly rests with the attacking driver, and I don't think that Hamilton was far enough ahead to say that he had the position. There have been plenty of defending drivers who have moved back across the way Rosberg did.

Like I said, the only way Hamilton could have made the pass work was to drive around the outside of Rosberg in a corner where you can't go side-by-side around the outside.

Okay your stupid argument is now growing throughout multiple racing communities, perhaps its time to stop pushing an opinion that is clearly broken. Rosberg missed the apex by a country mile and in my books, when a driver makes a mistake while someone is overtaking them and as a result they collide, its the fault of the driver who made the mistake. Please refrain from making these comments when Rosberg clearly fails to give room/take the blame/stop a car.

 

[JonoStan96]

I've seen some childish arguments in my many years of watching F1 but this takes the cake by a mile. PM, I highly suggest you calm down, have a drink, take the kaidelescope glasses off and relax. It's way beyond the point of belief now.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Does the driver on the outside have entitlement to racing room or not?

It depends on whether the driver on the outside has done enough to claim the position. In Canada, the popular consensus was that Rosberg had not done enough at the start to claim the line going into the first corner. Using that same logic, I don't think Hamilton did enough to claim the racing line because the shape of the corner meant that he would run out of room on the outside. Sure, he was slightly ahead, but assume for the moment that there was no contact - Rosberg would have held the position. The proper racing line has you entering the corner on the left-hand side of the circuit and exiting on the right, but if you follow the line Hamilton was trying to take, he runs wide on the exit and the pass is invalid.

Plus, Hamilton was apparently told that Rosberg had braking issues. In which parallel universe is trying to out-brake and drive around a car with brake problems at the heaviest braking point on the circuit - and a corner where you can't go around the outside - a good idea?

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Plus, Hamilton was apparently told that Rosberg had braking issues. In which parallel universe is trying to out-brake and drive around a car with brake problems at the heaviest braking point on the circuit - and a corner where you can't go around the outside - a good idea?

If you have a braking issue then surely the onus is on you to not create potential danger by attempting to brake deep or out-brake somebody in front of/beside you. In that dangerous situation, you should be backing off and bringing the car home slowly and safely.

 

[Liquid]

Is it irrational if I know it's irrational? After all, I just used reason to say "I wasn't using reason". Of course, if I am rational, why did I say that I was irrational? That, in itself, is irrational and brings us back to the first question - is it irrational if I know it's irrational?

You sound like Dotini in the OCE subforum.

Your dislike of Lewis Hamilton clouds your objectivity far greater than that of other people who may not like Hamilton and it is to the detriment of your other posts, which are usually insightful and interesting.

Nico Rosberg tried to be sneaky and force Hamilton off the road but it didn't work. It's done. The race is over. Rosberg wasn't cute enough about it. If the roles were reversed, you'd be screaming blue murder at Hamilton straight-lining the corner to push Rosberg out wide.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

If you have a braking issue then surely the onus is on you to not create potential danger by attempting to brake deep or out-brake somebody in front of/beside you. In that dangerous situation, you should be backing off and bringing the car home slowly and safely.

Lewis Hamilton has spoken

 

[niky]

All Hamilton has to do in his life right now (and for the last 2 seasons) is beat Nico, he must go home with such massive smile on his face as he's basically racing against one man and that man is Nico.... Has any racing driver got an easier time of it currently in Motorsport?

Nico may not have Hamilton's ultimate pace, but he's no pushover.

While Hamilton had the qualifying edge in their first season together, Nico has been even with him since then, and actually outqualified Hamilton last year. It's only Hamilton's aggressiveness on track that has enabled him to claw back wins when Nico has outqualified him. Nico is an excellent technical driver, and unlike Button or Hekki, actually makes Lewis work for his wins... most of the time.

I'm not sure it's particularly clear cut for me. It was a totally legal if somewhat odd defense from Rosberg. It was a totally understandable move from Hamilton, especially if he can't see Rosberg. Racing incident? Something that probably shouldn't have happened given that the two of them are team mates and should be putting a team 1-2 before individual performance? Hard to say.

The stewards, as posted by @Samus , decided otherwise. Rosberg was entitled to that defense if Hamilton was behind him or had only pulled up alongside. Hamilton was already half a car ahead long before the braking point, and Rosberg had only started to catch up under braking.

By the rules, Hamilton was required to leave space for Rosberg. Rosberg, as the following car, was required not to hit Hamilton.

Rosberg has executed this defense perfectly dozens of times before. You are allowed to run the outside driver off the road if you're ahead and following a natural line off the apex onto the outside exit. Rosberg was not anywhere near the apex. Hamilton left him several times as much room as legally required, and Rosberg still ran him off.

No, I still think Hamilton bears responsibility, because the first rule of overtaking is that the burden of passing cleanly rests with the attacking driver, and I don't think that Hamilton was far enough ahead to say that he had the position. There have been plenty of defending drivers who have moved back across the way Rosberg did.

Like I said, the only way Hamilton could have made the pass work was to drive around the outside of Rosberg in a corner where you can't go side-by-side around the outside.

Hamilton was far enough ahead to have the right to racing room. The stewards will always, always allow the leading driver to run the outside driver off. However much we rail against that "dirty" tactic, that's how it goes.

They will never, ever allow the following driver to knock the lead driver out, unless the lead driver has squeezed them against the apex. And these two were two flights and a train transfer away from the apex.

I also take contention with the idea that Hamilton didn't anticipate Nico trying to run him wide. He had control of the corner and still gingerly tiptoed around the outside line specifically to avoid a collision. If Nico had taken the proper racing line, he would have come out ahead of Hamilton, with better drive out of the corner, and the option to legally box out Hamilton at the exit. He would have then kept that podium spot and possibly the win.

Hamilton has done a lot of questionably aggressive moves over the years, but this is the most completely non-aggressive pass he has ever made. If leaving 90% of the track to your opponent isn't caution enough, then no overtaking is safe.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

What I find curious in all of this is the stewards' decision to give Rosberg an extra ten seconds when they could have given him a grid penalty for Silverstone. No doubt there were mitigating factors that influenced them - no-one retired, Rosberg lost two positions, and he had a brake issue - but their verdict was always going to be political, and this comes across as pretty light.

For one, we can infer that they didn't view this as deliberate on Rosberg's part, which is significant considering the events of Spa 2014, because if they did think it was deliberate, they penalty would have been much more severe. But more importantly, there has been an attitude within the stewards' room to avoid penalties that radically affect the outcome of race results, especially those with championship implications (even if we are only nine races into the season) unless there is a clear-cut case of wrongdoing. I wonder if the decision to give Rosberg ten seconds was deliberate because it allowed him to keep fourth - but at the same time, it sent a pretty clear message to both Hamilton and Rosberg: that this won't be tolerated. After all, Hamilton has two reprimands hanging over his head, and the third brings an immediate ten-place penalty. I think that this is a clear statement of intent for the rest of the season, that they're free to race, but the stewards will take a dim view of any further altercations.

 

[Neomone]

The stewards, as posted by @Samus , decided otherwise. Rosberg was entitled to that defense if Hamilton was behind him or had only pulled up alongside. Hamilton was already half a car ahead long before the braking point, and Rosberg had only started to catch up under braking.

By the rules, Hamilton was required to leave space for Rosberg. Rosberg, as the following car, was required not to hit Hamilton.

Rosberg has executed this defense perfectly dozens of times before. You are allowed to run the outside driver off the road if you're ahead and following a natural line off the apex onto the outside exit. Rosberg was not anywhere near the apex. Hamilton left him several times as much room as legally required, and Rosberg still ran him off.

I agree with all that except the last part. The contact happened because Hamilton turned in, not because Rosberg did. Rosberg didn't run him out of road, Hamilton had space to spare when contact happened. Hamilton turned in because he couldn't see Rosberg and assumed that Rosberg would have turned in by then. Which was totally a reasonable expectation, but not one based on knowledge.

Now whether Rosberg was entitled to have his car on an open piece of track or not is debatable, and whether he should have just gotten out of the way of Hamilton who had a nose ahead is as well. As you say the stewards have decided that he was not and should have. But it's very clear in the video that when contact happened Rosberg had only just started turning, Hamilton had turned across him, and there was still plenty of room on the outside of the track. Hamilton made the move, Rosberg's contribution was not turning in when Hamilton expected him to. I don't think it counts as running someone off if they turn into you to cause contact.

Let's be honest, had it resulted in a Kobayashi style wheel on wheel block pass this wouldn't have even been questioned. It was about a foot away from being so. The stewards made the call and they are by definition right, but I think that the actual situation is quite nuanced and is not as simple as "Rosberg done messed up". The "rules" in F1 of when and where drivers can force each other across the track are pretty vague and arbitrary.

 

[Clark]

It's not easy for Hamilton to beat Nico as they're both brilliant drivers. Where it's easy for Lewis is that he is good enough and desperation never sets in like it does for Nico. It that fact it is 'easy' as I think he has his teammate beaten psychologically.

 

[niky]

Let's be honest, had it resulted in a Kobayashi style wheel on wheel block pass this wouldn't have even been questioned. It was about a foot away from being so. The stewards made the call and they are by definition right, but I think that the actual situation is quite nuanced and is not as simple as "Rosberg done messed up". The "rules" in F1 of when and where drivers can force each other across the track are pretty vague and arbitrary.

Not quite so arbitrary. The stewards always consider the racing line and movement away from the racing line as the basis for penalties in a collision like this.

In similar situations where either Rosberg or Hamilton box out an overtaking driver on the outside, they give them the benefit of the doubt because the box-out typically occurs on corner exit, where the lead driver has the excuse of following the racing line. And they're pretty consistent with that.

They gave Rosberg a penalty because they were so far off the racing line that he had no excuse. Hamilton did technically turn into Rosberg, but he was leading and had the right to turn in wherever he wanted, granted that he left enough space for Rosberg.

He left more than enough space. Rosberg perhaps felt that he could run Lewis completely off the track by forcing him wide, but that was a fool's bet, as any collision out at that point, with him behind Lewis, would be charged to him.

 

[Spurgy 777]

I don't think it counts as running someone off if they turn into you to cause contact.

Hamilton had to turn in to get around the corner, he couldn't have left it any later really. The only reason Rosberg got round and didn't run wide himself was because he hit Hamilton. I agree that maybe he was trying to hit Hamilton wheel on wheel, but that still would have been an illegal move because this is a non-contact sport, not "you can hit people off if you're too 🤬 to defend properly".

 

[niky]

Hamilton had to turn in to get around the corner, he couldn't have left it any later really. The only reason Rosberg got round and didn't run wide himself was because he hit Hamilton. I agree that maybe he was trying to hit Hamilton wheel on wheel, but that still would have been an illegal move because this is a non-contact sport, not "you can hit people off if you're too 🤬 to defend properly".

Ergo: Nico did a Pastor Maldonado. Only Maldonado usually runs into people much closer to the apex.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I think we are fortunate the FIA doesn't call us to be stewards. I think we would need stewards to steward the stewards meeting by the looks of this thread.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I think we are fortunate the FIA doesn't call us to be stewards. I think we would need stewards to steward the stewards meeting by the looks of this thread.

Indeed. This season I can hardly distinguish one GP thread from any other.

 

[axletramp]

Rosberg hasn't done himself any favours after this either. There may be people out there who hate Hamilton's attitude (I find him quite annoying at times tbh), but Rosberg's insistence that he wasn't at fault then astonishment at being punished by the stewards is just as bad as anything Hamilton's done in his F1 career. Why not just come out and say "Hey, I had brake issues and in defending I had to try something that didn't come off and we had a clumsy collision. My bad, but that's racing." Can't help thinking that a less spoilt attitude might help get things off his back and serve him better in the coming races and battles with Hamilton.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Rosberg's insistence that he wasn't at fault then astonishment at being punished by the stewards is just as bad as anything Hamilton's done in his F1 career.

I remember reading an article in 2014 - I think it was by James Allen; I'm trying to dig it up now - that talked about how Rosberg handled the English and German media. He'd say exactly the same thing to each of them, but how he said it differed. When he was dealing with the British media, he'd slump his shoulders, pout a little and vary his tone so that he looked dejected because he knew the British media would back Hamilton, and he was showing them exactly what they wanted to (or expected to) see. But when he was dealing with the German media, he'd correct his posture, relax a bit more and generally be more animated because he knew that they would be more supportive of him; once again, he was giving them what they wanted. He's still doing it - at the start of the weekend, Sky asked him about Hamilton's engine change and the possibility of penalties later in the season. He played dumb, claiming that he was only just finding out about it then, but he was a little too quick with his answer. Hamilton does it in equal measure; I don't think that it's any coincidencethat he started questioning the wisdom of shuffling the mechanics around when he did, because he knew that the media would put pressure on the team. Every driver does it to some extent or another - Mark Webber was always really good at playing the Lil' Aussie Battler for the sake of the media, and Sky have mentioned a few times this year the way Kimi Räikkönen gives the appearance of being disinterested when he's really clued into everything that's happening.

I remember the article because it came around the time of the Spa contact. It argued that Rosberg was a victim of his own success; he said that the contact was a statement aimed at the team because he felt that they weren't supporting him, but because the British media had bought his down-in-the-dumps routine, they dismissed anything that he had to say.

 

[dopedog]

I think the biggest cause for all of this is the simple fact that Lewis and Nico are racing each other and no one else. Even in Red Bulls glory years they had competition race to race, not over the season but at a given race they had others in with a shot.
Bar a Merc breakdown those Mercs are 1-2 every time, so all Lewis and Nico ever think is 1st. Yes i know people will trump on about all driver think of is winning, but no actually Nico could have thought, Lewis is on better tyres my breaks are shot i'll be happy with 2nd.
They need some competition and need it now because all we are really watching is 2 very even drivers in two very very special cars racing each other with some other blokes in cars following round.
If Lewis or Nico come second its not "well done you beat a Ferrari/Williams/Red Bull" its you lost to your team mate, it must be harder for Nico with most people suggesting he isn't deserving of being where he is, with Nico its "the car" with Lewis it's "he's a legend"
Personally It's funny when they crash onto each other so long as they are both OK, because it creates drama.

 

[Jimlaad43]

What I find curious in all of this is the stewards' decision to give Rosberg an extra ten seconds when they could have given him a grid penalty for Silverstone.

If they'd retired, a Grid Penalty would have been the only option, but because he finished, time penalties are given. Rosberg only got 10 seconds because the damage he got in the accident was a penalty in itself. Yes, Rosberg was to blame because he ran Lewis out of room, but he went from 1st to 4th because of the accident. If Rosberg had continued and won, but Hamilton had lost a load of time with a damaged car, then the stewards would have had the rights to throw the book right at him. 10 seconds was fair really as he'd already taken the penalty for driving a lap without a front wing.

If they collide again at Silverstone or Hungary, I can see Wehrlein getting a one-off promotion for Hockenheim at least as a wake-up call to the pair.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

If they collide again at Silverstone or Hungary, I can see Wehrlein getting a one-off promotion for Hockenheim at least as a wake-up call to the pair.

I remember a rumour in the French press that suggested Mercedes would replace Hamilton with Wehrlein for the Monaco Grand Prix. It obviously didn't happen it, but I remember it because it seemed so odd - Wehrlein had no experience of Monaco.

 

[axletramp]

The last thing Hamilton needs is to collide with his teammate while he's behind on points. I think you could tell that from how he was tip-toeing around the outside of turn 2. Just a feeling, but if there's contact at Silverstone then there's a good chance it will be from Rosberg who has the most to gain from contact - if it works. Still, bringing in Wehrlein would be one hell of coup if they did. Don't see it myself.

 

[Brend]

The whole argument comes down to if you view Formula 1 as primarily a team-based Motorsport or an individual-based Motorsport. Individually, there's nothing wrong with ROS and HAM going at each other, however for the sake of the Manufacturers championship it's incredibly dangerous for both if they keep up what they are doing.

You could put anyone in those cars and they'd win, maybe next time either snaps and makes a silly decision they should remember that. Sponsorship is usually tied to the car and not the individual (in the case of actual racing), so I won't be surprised if Mercedes might start applying some discipline.

Toto looked like he wanted to punch both of them.

 

[Jimlaad43]

I remember a rumour in the French press that suggested Mercedes would replace Hamilton with Wehrlein for the Monaco Grand Prix. It obviously didn't happen it, but I remember it because it seemed so odd - Wehrlein had no experience of Monaco.

It was more of a meme joke in response to the Kvyat/Verstappen situation after Spain.