2017 Formula 1 Azerbaijan Grand PrixFormula 1 

  • Thread starter Jimlaad43
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Ooh and most likely Max will get a $25,000 penalty for not showing up in the media square. He gave a written answer after the race and shared his obvious frustration with the rest of the world but that is against the rules. You have to show up for media interviews.
 
This time last year Nobuhara Matsu****a was given a 1 event ban for playing silly buggers when leading the pack to a safety car restart at Baku, why has Hamilton not been punished in any way?
 
Because Hamilton's telemetry is instantly available to the stewards - if he'd "brake tested" Vettel he would have been penalised.
Where did they publish this data at the time of the accident? I know they revealed it after the race, but I am talking about the half-second after the contact when everyone jumped to the conclusion that Hamilton did no wrong and that Vettel deliberately hit him.

Every viewer saw Vettel pull alongside and swerve into Hamilton
And they also saw him gesticulate at Hamilton. It was obvious that his intent was to show his anger, but where is the evidence that he deliberately hit Hamilton? Like I said at the time, the on-board footage shows him with one hand off the steering wheel and clearly looking across at Hamilton. It seems far more likely that he lost sight of what he was doing in a moment of anger than the suggestion that he deliberately hit Hamilton in a move that could have easily ended his race. We know Vettel has a habit of forgetting himself when incensed - case in point, his radio message to Charlie Whiting in Mexico last year. Judging by his reaction to the penalty, we could even go so far as to infer that he was so angry that he didn't even realise that he had made contact.

if he was capable of that kind of misjudgement then he wouldn't be fit to drive any car.
By that logic, Hamilton isn't fit to drive either. Whether Vettel's contact was accidental or deliberate is open to debate, but Hamilton's positioning before the initial contact was definitely deliberate. After all, he had already been told by the team that his first restart was marginal. He was probably slowing down sooner to avoid coming under scrutiny. On top of that, he was the de facto safety car, so it was his responsibility to ensure that the restart was clean. He was also trying to back the field up to leave Vettel exposed to the cars behind, since the nature of the circuit means you're vulnerable down the main straight. Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that when devoid of emotion, Hamilton had no idea where Vettel was and so their contact was a complete accident, but in a moment of anger Vettel knew exactly where Hamilton was and deliberately hit him?

I'm not defending Vettel by any means. Whether accidental or intentional, it was a stupid and avoidable incident. But accusing a driver of deliberately crashing - and in doing so, risking death or injury to himself or others - is a very serious one, and so in the absence of proof, the driver in question deserves the benefit of the doubt. And that is what annoyed me: as soon as they made contact, everyone assumed that Hamilton did nothing wrong and that Vettel did something as cynical and dangerous as deliberately crashing into him.
 
This time last year Nobuhara Matsu****a was given a 1 event ban for playing silly buggers when leading the pack to a safety car restart at Baku, why has Hamilton not been punished in any way?
Seems to be some reading comprehension issues in this thread.

Excerpt from the BBC race report.

"The stewards examined data from his car and found that he had maintained a more or less constant speed, had not lifted off the throttle or braked, and had behaved no differently at that re-start at that point on the track than at the other two re-starts."

And that is what annoyed me: as soon as they made contact, everyone assumed that Hamilton did nothing wrong and that Vettel did something as cynical and dangerous as deliberately crashing into him.

Because that is what happened and we were all watching it.
 
Seems to be some reading comprehension issues in this thread.
Because that is what happened and we were all watching it.
...So Matsu****a shouldn't have been penalised last year because he fluffed all the restarts?

btw it really sucks that Bottas was given a podium, terrible driving on the first lap totally unpunished and the rules give him a lap advantage over everybody else.
 
...So Matsu****a shouldn't have been penalised last year because he fluffed all the restarts?.
As my quote from the stewards shows, Hamilton wasn't 'playing silly buggers'. If you think Matsu****a has been wronged I suggest you take it up with the relevant authorities.
 
Palmer is no Lewis Hamilton but he is a known quantity and the way he is treated by the F1 community is ridiculous.
Why does Palmer deserve to be treated any differently to a driver in his position? He is a glorified pay driver who in twenty-eight starts has made a series of amateur mistakes and has regularly and consistently been beaten by his team-mates. He had a rough weekend in Baku which was not his fault, but on the whole, he has under-performed. Any driver in his position would deserve the criticism he has received, so why not Palmer?

He was 28th in his first season of GP2 and won in his fourth.
Do you know who else won the title in their fourth season? Davide Valsecchi, Fabio Leimer and Pastor Maldonado. And where are they now? One is a Formula 2 commentator, one has apparently fallen off the planet, and one is the laughing stock of the motorsport community.

However, Stroll for the most part this season has been a victim when it comes to DNFs and has actively been trying to learn and seems to be humble and not big headed
Hopefully this weekend marks a turn-around. He might have benefited from the nonsense around him, but that just means that he kept his head.

Because that is what happened and we were all watching it.
Show me the absolute proof that he did it deliberately. From where I am sitting, all you can do is prove that he hit Hamilton. If you have that proof, I'll happily hear it, but until such time as you do, let me ask you this: why did the stewards only penalise Vettel for dangerous driving? They could have handed out a much harsher penalty for deliberate contact, but they didn't.
 
As my quote from the stewards shows, Hamilton wasn't 'playing silly buggers'. If you think Matsu****a has been wronged I suggest you take it up with the relevant authorities.
The footage played in by FOM clearly showed Hamilton braking coming out of turn 15, maybe their telemetry is inaccurate but he certainly didn't accelerate coming out of the turn, it was stupid driving from Hamilton because his car has such a pace advantage on the final sector that a normal restart would've not had anybody threaten him, he didn't need to be causing collisions.

Did FOM ever play in the onboard from the first restart?
 
btw it really sucks that Bottas was given a podium

Yea but to be fair he wasn't "given" a podium, he earned it. Besides, after the 1st lap contact shenanigans, he fought back, and benefited from issues that people had ahead him, and at the end of the day, the contact was not intentional, just a misjudgment on his part, when he bundled over the kerb.
 
Show me the absolute proof that he did it deliberately. From where I am sitting, all you can do is prove that he hit Hamilton. If you have that proof, I'll happily hear it, but until such time as you do, let me ask you this: why did the stewards only penalise Vettel for dangerous driving? They could have handed out a much harsher penalty for deliberate contact, but they didn't.
The guy is a 4 x WDC and one of the best drivers in the world who manages to drive his car at it's limit for lap after lap without making mistakes. He was travelling at very low speed, there is no way on this earth that a driver of his ability would accidentally run into another at that speed unless he was unforgivably careless or he meant it. Either is unforgivable and he should have been dealt with accordingly.

Now off course you'll turn this into an argument about semantics and ask for absolute proof which will only reinforce what the vast majority of this board think of you when anything related to Hamilton is discussed.
 
Why does Palmer deserve to be treated any differently to a driver in his position? He is a glorified pay driver who in twenty-eight starts has made a series of amateur mistakes and has regularly and consistently been beaten by his team-mates. He had a rough weekend in Baku which was not his fault, but on the whole, he has under-performed. Any driver in his position would deserve the criticism he has received, so why not Palmer?
I think you underestimate the animosity towards Palmer that is being displayed in the less civilized corners of the internet. He is blamed for everything, including his Monaco spin, and is treated a lot worse than other drivers of his 'caliber' - i.e. Nasr, Ericsson, Merhi. I feel that he has the Chilton-Stroll problem in that he is directly related to the 'money' and people tend to be less civil in those cases.
Do you know who else won the title in their fourth season? Davide Valsecchi, Fabio Leimer and Pastor Maldonado. And where are they now? One is a Formula 2 commentator, one has apparently fallen off the planet, and one is the laughing stock of the motorsport community.

The person i was replying to used Palmer as an example of someone who doesn't improve. I didnt mean that he is worthy of F1 seat.
 
The footage played in by FOM clearly showed Hamilton braking coming out of turn 15, maybe their telemetry is inaccurate but he certainly didn't accelerate coming out of the turn, it was stupid driving from Hamilton because his car has such a pace advantage on the final sector that a normal restart would've not had anybody threaten him, he didn't need to be causing collisions.

Did FOM ever play in the onboard from the first restart?
If it was stupid driving by Hamilton the stewards, and the plethora of extra data they have compared to us armchair experts, would have punished him. They didn't.
 
The footage played in by FOM clearly showed Hamilton braking coming out of turn 15, maybe their telemetry is inaccurate but he certainly didn't accelerate coming out of the turn, it was stupid driving from Hamilton because his car has such a pace advantage on the final sector that a normal restart would've not had anybody threaten him, he didn't need to be causing collisions.

He followed the restart procedure and did exactly what he'd done on every other restart (fact), Vettel managed to avoid driving into the back of him on those occasions. I suspect that after Vettel's previous terrible restart he was pushing too close to the back of Hamilton's car the next time around.
 
The guy is a 4 x WDC and one of the best drivers in the world who manages to drive his car at it's limit for lap after lap without making mistakes. He was travelling at very low speed, there is no way on this earth that a driver of his ability would accidentally run into another at that speed unless he was unforgivably careless or he meant it.
That's not evidence. That's conjucture. It's called argumentum ad ignorantiam, or argument from incredulity - "I cannot imagine how this could be true; therefore, it must be false" - and it's a logical fallacy.
 
If it was stupid driving by Hamilton the stewards, and the plethora of extra data they have compared to us armchair experts, would have punished him. They didn't.
Until the stewards release their telemetry all we have to go by is what FOM have already shared:


I think Hamilton over-reacted to his first mistake where he was almost penalised for overtaking the safety car and slowed the pace down far too much and in the wrong place, I don't think he did it deliberately since he had such a good car (wouldn't want to jeopardise an easy win) but it was an error of judgement.
 
Reinforce away!
You're the one making the accusation. The burden of responsibility rests with you.

Now off course you'll turn this into an argument about semantics and ask for absolute proof which will only reinforce what the vast majority of this board think of you when anything related to Hamilton is discussed.
I don't think that vast majority of the board would disagree with me when I say that it's a serious accusation and that it needs to be substantiated with more than conjecture. You claim that my opinion is coloured by my bias against Hamilton, yet going by the vehemence with which you attack Vettel, it's fairly clear that you yourself are biased.
 
You're the one making the accusation. The burden of responsibility rests with you.


I don't think that vast majority of the board would disagree with me when I say that it's a serious accusation and that it needs to be substantiated with more than conjecture. You claim that my opinion is coloured by my bias against Hamilton, yet going by the vehemence with which you attack Vettel, it's fairly clear that you yourself are biased.
I haven't attacked Vettel at all. He either through incompetence (for a driver of his ability) or by deliberate act made contact with Hamilton's car. That is deserving of a sanction. He got one. Get over it.
 
Hamilton had won that apex in Valencia. Once off the track, it's MALDONADO's responsibility to rejoin safely.
lol are you cereal?
 

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I think Hamilton over-reacted to his first mistake where he was almost penalised for overtaking the safety car and slowed the pace down far too much and in the wrong place, I don't think he did it deliberately since he had such a good car (wouldn't want to jeopardise an easy win) but it was an error of judgement.

'Trust me it wasn't close'. That was Hamilton's response to the pit telling him he was on the limit at the first restart. So in this brave new world of absolute proof being needed, that is all we have to go on. So in his opinion there wasn't a first mistake to over react to.

We also know from the stewards that he behaved in an almost identical way at that point on track at all the restarts. So how can behaving in the same way be an over reaction?
 
You accused him of delibetately crashing into Hamilton based on nothing more than conjecture. That's an attack.

Should we trawl through your posts to have a look at what you have accused Hamilton of based on nothing but conjecture? Honestly, get over yourself. It's all very sad and pathetic. I've clarified my position on Vettel's actions to being either unforgivably careless or deliberate. I do not believe that a driver of his ability would be that careless but there is a chance, however small it is. Either way the fault lies with Vettel and no one else and he has to face up to that, as do you.

And dude, spell check! You're supposed to be an educator.
 
The footage played in by FOM clearly showed Hamilton braking coming out of turn 15, maybe their telemetry is inaccurate but he certainly didn't accelerate coming out of the turn,

Hamilton slowed up to give more space between him and the safety car. During the last restart, his team radioed him saying he was to close to the safety car and was at risk of overtaking it. When the lights on the SC go out, the lead driver also sets the pace for the rest of the field. Vettel should've given Hamilton a bit more room, which he would've been able to do given the gap between him and the FI.

...it was stupid driving from Hamilton because his car has such a pace advantage on the final sector that a normal restart would've not had anybody threaten him, he didn't need to be causing collisions.

The stewards themselves said that Hamilton maintained acceptable speed through the corner.
 
Man, this race was nuts! Before it started I thought it'd have been as bad as Sochi, with the long straights and the dirty air, and the very narrow 90 degree corners. But it was one of the best races I've ever seen.

I think that what happened to Force India was disappointing but better than what has happened to Ferrari, or Red Bull. Barrichello clearly slowing down to let Schumacher win comes to mind. I know it's not the same, but still.

And Stroll, very surprising finish. I actually like the guy, he does have what is needed to become an F1 driver. He just proved it, I'd say. Also, the PlayStation comment he made I think doesn't mean anything.

Oh, and the whole Vettel vs Hamilton thing.
I've been a Vettel fan since he entetered F1, I remember he was the first driver who's wins I've celebrated after Alonso, so I should defend Vettel blindly, which I've done before.
But obviously I wont this time. He screwed up today (yesterday), badly. However, I understand his anger.
If the race hadn't been red flagged, he'd have lost a lot of positions as his front wing was very damaged, and Hamilton wouldn't have had any problem with the headrest, or whatever that's called, and would have won. But I think that he completely deserved the penalty and the license points.

First post on GTP:gtpflag:
 
Until the stewards release their telemetry all we have to go by is what FOM have already shared

All you're showing is that he was braking as the SC pulled away. That's how he'd undertaken the previous restarts too - there was nothing unusual or dangerous in that and we know that from the examination of his telemetry by the stewards. The lead driver controls the pace, Vettel knows that but still managed to make a serious mistake on that restart.
 
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