2017 Formula 1 Azerbaijan Grand PrixFormula 1

[prisonermonkeys]

“The Stewards examined video evidence which showed that car 5 drove alongside and then steered into car 44,” the stewards’ decision states. “The Stewards decide this manoeuvre was deemed potentially dangerous.”

All that says is that Vettel hit Hamilton. Nowhere does it say that he did it deliberately. @Touring Mars said that all of the available evidence points to it being deliberate, but this goes against that claim.

PS - thank you for posting that. I've spent the past fifteen minutes trying to figure out how to post the link. All I can get is a .pdf version of it, and since I'm on a mobile, it just downloads straight to the reader.

 

[Dennisch]

All that says is that Vettel hit Hamilton. Nowhere does it say that he did it deliberately. @Touring Mars said that all of the available evidence points to it being deliberate, but this goes against that claim.

STEERED INTO CAR 44.

You steer into something by turning a steering wheel. An F1 car doesn't steer by itself. He came along side, wheels straight and then, all of the sudden, he goes to the right.

Seriously, buy a pair of new correcting goggles. There are plenty of videos of the incident available.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Where is your evidence that he did it deliberately? The very same arguments that you make to refute my claim can be used to refute yours. At the very least, you should acknowledge that the available evidence does not definitively prove either case.

I'm confused - I thought you'd claimed to have seen footage that shows Vettel's steering wheel? I couldn't find any on YouTube or Formula1.com, do you have a link please?

EDIT: Mostly tree'd, didn't refresh page before posting

 

[Hun200kmh]

Not sure if people know about this (some do, I know) but all decisions by the stewards (among many other interesting infos) are public, and available for us fans to read.

Regarding this last GP you can find everything in this page:

http://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-one-world-championship/season-2017/eventtiming-information-30

scroll down, you will find all the stewards ' decisions (just after their biographies). The ones from 25.06 are the "during the race" decisions.

Enjoy.

 

[Touring Mars]

Where is your evidence that he did it deliberately? The very same arguments that you make to refute my claim can be used to refute yours. At the very least, you should acknowledge that the available evidence does not definitively prove either case.

Furthermore, I have repeatedly pointed out that the stewards did not charge Vettel with deliberately causing an accident and you have so far failed to address this in any way. Case in point:


If it was as clear-cut as you claim, Vettel should have been penalised for deliberately causing an accident. He wasn't, and you have failed to provide anything to substantiate this claim.

The fact is that in the eyes of the stewards, Vettel did not deliberately drive into Hamilton. You claim that he did, which means that the burden is on you to prove it.

There is a world of difference between explaining why I thought the collision was deliberate by reasoning and interpretation of the evidence that I have at my disposal (which, granted, does not prove anything definitively) and posting a bare-faced lie that you have seen the telemetry data that proves that Vettel did not make an additional steering input which caused the collision.

As @Dennisch has just posted, the stewards' did state that Vettel 'steered into car 44': here is the FIA document where that is stated clearly enough: http://www.fia.com/file/59053/download?token=HWSIkw4f

 

[Dennisch]

It starts with the incident filmed from the front. There is no way in hell that a fully functional F1 car can turn that much without steering input.

Edit.

Can I just say that I really like it that this kind of video isn't immediately removed from Youtube??

 

[TenEightyOne]

At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

STEERED INTO CAR 44

Look at the conjunction - "and then". This just recounts a series of chronological events. Vettel pulled alongside Hamilton, and then three second later, hit him. There is no adjective to modify the verb "steered". Therefore, the stewards did not regard the action as deliberate.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Look at the conjunction - "and then". This just recounts a series of chronological events. Vettel pulled alongside Hamilton, and then three second later, hit him. There is no adjective to modify the verb "steered". Therefore, the stewards did not regard the action as deliberate.

Come off it, you know what "driven" means... and it doesn't mean to be an uncontrolling passenger. "Drove alongside and then steered into". Dude, just give it up.

 

[PzR Slim]

Look at the conjunction - "and then". This just recounts a series of chronological events. Vettel pulled alongside Hamilton, and then three second later, hit him. There is no adjective to modify the verb "steered". Therefore, the stewards did not regard the action as deliberate.

What alternative universe do you live in?

 

[Dennisch]

Vettel pulled alongside Hamilton, and then three second later, hit him

He hits him within a second. He comes alongside and hits him. I just posted the video.

 

[Hun200kmh]

wow ... 10-80-1 you are fake noos

 

[PzR Slim]

He hits him within a second. He comes alongside and hits him.

Not only does he hit him, he hits him because he 'steered into him'.

 

[Dennisch]

Not only does he hit him, he hits him because he 'steered into him'.

Yup. I was at first also not convinced that it was deliberate, but that was because I only saw the onboard replay. Now with all those multiple angle replays it's clear as day. Vettel turned into him.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

it doesn't mean to be an uncontrolling passenger

It doesn't mean he did it delibetately either. It's simply a verb written in the past tense - the act of driving. All it means is that as a result of his actions, Vettel collided with Hamilton. Nothing about his intentions.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Can I just say that I really like it that this kind of video isn't immediately removed from Youtube??

Yeah, F1's attitude is changing, and in a good way. Just watched a few of the many YT vídeos from their oficial channel, this wouldn't be possible (for free) a few years ago.

I do like this one. Ricciardo's measured, but delighted, reaction to victory makes for a fresh change from the usual Yee.Awww's and "yes yes yes yes" (usual and usually annoying )

 

[PzR Slim]

Yup. I was at first also not convinced that it was deliberate, but that was because I only saw the onboard replay. Now with all those multiple angle replays it's clear as day. Vettel turned into him.

Anybody looking at that video you posted who then says it was not a deliberate act is a sad, vindictive fool.

You can clearly see Vettel pull out from behind Hamilton, straighten the wheel so he is travelling parallel to Hamilton for a brief period before his cars is steered on a different trajectory into Hamilton's car. Someone could argue that didn't happen or that a 4 x WDC wasn't able to control his car in that instant but if they did they would be an embarrassment.

 

[Touring Mars]

@prisonermonkeys You have precisely 5 minutes from now to tell us where you saw the Ferrari telemetry data or your post will be removed and an infraction given.

 

[Dennisch]

It doesn't mean he did it delibetately either. It's simply a verb written in the past tense - the act of driving. All it means is that as a result of his actions, Vettel collided with Hamilton. Nothing about his intentions.

I want you to look really close at the video I posted, and especially the first 5 seconds.

After that I want you to give me a good excuse how a fully functional car can move that much without deliberate steering input.

Yeah, F1's attitude is changing, and in a good way. Just watched a few of the many YT vídeos from their oficial channel, this wouldn't be possible (for free) a few years ago.

I do like this one. Ricciardo's measured, but delighted, reaction to victory makes for a fresh change from the usual Yee.Awww's and "yes yes yes yes" (usual and usually annoying )

 

[Hun200kmh]

LOL, them fools don't allow the video to be seen outside of their YT page!

Still ... an improvement from recent years!

 

[zzz_pt]

FIA F1 Sporting Regulations 27-4:
At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person.


I wonder if it applies to Hamilton as well: coming into a straight (with all the other cars closely behing) and slowing down to <50 km/h after the apex, with the safety car safely in the distant already.

Just a few seconds before the contact he was complaining that the safety car was too slow. He then procceds to slow down to an even lower pace after the 2nd (?) slower corner of the track. I mean, right before that corner Lewis had a big and wide section to slow the pace a bit in a steady and safe manner. But he didn't. He goes up to +180 km/h (sorry for the potato quality but didn't find any other video). That would be the safe way I guess... for others and for him, who was in first.

I won't argue Vettel's penalty as I agree with it. Or even discuss Vettel's deliberate or not deliberate steering. He deliberatly put his car alongside Hamilton's and if after that he drove into Lewis, that's 100% his fault.

Having said that, I think Hamilton did push the limits of the regulations yet again and got away clean - as he did last year, slowing down while in 1st and making everything possible so Rosberg could be overtaken. Maybe when Hamilton is going slow, no penalties will come up for him. He should always be going fast. He causes less controversies and wins more (points and respect).

As Vettel deliberatly put his car allongside Hamilton's and hit it, Lewis also deliberatly took his foot of the throttle to slow down to ~50km/h with Vettel close behind him. If anyone expected Vettel or any other driver in his place to have a 30m gap just to "be safe", he or she is a bit naive. You can even listen to Vettel's car engine sound on the video posted above to see that he doesn't accelerate into Lewis. He acctually slows down, just not enough to avoid contact.

I guess driving slowly is OK as long as the drivers behind you are good enough to avoid contact and make the stewards think there was not even a "potential danger".

PS: Also, why isn't the onboard graph correct when showing that Hamilton did use the brakes? I'm just asking how, technically that system wouldn't syncd with the car's telemetry. Guess that would be ideal, even for the viewers who apparently are seeing ghost brakings and accelarations. ^^ Always thought the data was reliable. I mean, when I see 200 km/h I guess if it is 201 there's no big deal, but I thought that applying force to a pedal (accelation or brakes) was different and more accurate.

 

[Dhalism]

No, it came when I was about seven or eight years old and learning how to deal with conflict and generally be a well-adjusted person.

I'm sorry but you're being ridiculous. No one in their mind would accept this 'non-apology'. But i think judging from the rest of the posts here its pretty clear that you feel a certain way.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/...ettel-foul-gp-aserbaidschan-2017-3426455.html

Translation summary from reddit:
Eight month ago the FIA looked in to punishing Vettel for his rude radio remarks to Charlie Whiting. The case in Mexico was dropped because Vettel apologized and FIA president Jean Todt acknowledged his commitment to the security campaigns of the World Federation as a mitigating factor. He then threatened to be harder on Vettel if this would be repeated. Michael Schumacher lost all his points in the championship after his deliberate collision with Jacques Villeneuve. At that time one of the stewards was Paul Gutjar. Gutjar was also one of the stewards on Sunday in Baku. What could be bad for Vettel was the obvious intention behind his action. Auto and Motorsport has learned that Jean Todt is thinking about bringing Vettel before the sports court. There he faces the risk of a race suspension.

A decision on whether he will be brought to the sports court will be taken this week.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

FIA F1 Sporting Regulations 27-4:
At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person.


I wonder if it applies to Hamilton as well: coming into a straight (with all the other cars closely behing) and slowing down to <50 km/h after the apex, with the safety car safely in the distant already.

Just a few seconds before the contact he was complaining that the safety car was too slow. He then procceds to slow down to an even lower pace after the 2nd (?) slower corner of the track. I mean, right before that corner Lewis had a big and wide section to slow the pace a bit in a steady and safe manner. But he didn't. He goes up to +180 km/h (sorry for the potato quality but didn't find any other video). That would be the safe way I guess... for others and for him, who was in first.

I won't argue Vettel's penalty as I agree with it. Or even discuss Vettel's deliberate or not deliberate steering. He deliberatly put his car alongside Hamilton's and if after that he drove into Lewis, that's 100% his fault.

Having said that, I think Hamilton did push the limits of the regulations yet again and got away clean - as he did last year, slowing down while in 1st and making everything possible so Rosberg could be overtaken. Maybe when Hamilton is going slow, no penalties will come up for him. He should always be going fast. He causes less controversies and wins more (points and respect).

As Vettel deliberatly put his car allongside Hamilton's and hit it, Lewis also deliberatly took his foot of the throttle to slow down to ~50km/h with Vettel close behind him. If anyone expected Vettel or any other driver in his place to have a 30m gap just to "be safe", he or she is a bit naive. You can even listen to Vettel's car engine sound on the video posted above to see that he doesn't accelerate into Lewis. He acctually slows down, just not enough to avoid contact.

I guess driving slowly is OK as long as the drivers behind you are good enough to avoid contact and make the stewards think there was not even a "potential danger".

PS: Also, why isn't the onboard graph correct when showing that Hamilton did use the brakes? I'm just asking how, technically that system wouldn't syncd with the car's telemetry. Guess that would be ideal, even for the viewers who apparently are seeing ghost brakings and accelarations. ^^ Always thought the data was reliable. I mean, when I see 200 km/h I guess if it is 201 there's no big deal, but I thought that applying force to a pedal (accelation or brakes) was different and more accurate.

There is a video on this very thread showing how Lewis drove exactly the same way at all restarts under the SC, they even do a side by side. I suggest you watch that. The leader had not drove erratically and if he had the first restart would have got him in trouble, however in fact the only trouble Lewis potentially faced was nearly passing the SC before the SC line. Which is why it's suggested he backed even more to have no chance of accidentally passing it.

Vettel wanted to play his own game of hitching a ride as close to Lewis's rear crash structure because he had a poor restart on the prior SC.

The telemetry isn't synced to the team data, teams would never allow it because it would give inside info to other teams that could simply watch the FOM feed, or driver feeds. It was suggested that camera sensors detect when a car is braking or accelerating, but this isn't on the same level of detail or accuracy as the telemetry charts the teams usually present when under investigation


As for a side note and general discussion outside this incident, Force India seem to blame themselves to a degree for Lewis not finishing where everyone believes he would have if not for the red flag.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

After that I want you to give me a good excuse how a fully functional car can move that much without deliberate steering input

All steering inputs are deliberate. What I am disputing is the claim that Vettel hit Hamilton on purpose. All you can prove from the onboard footage is that Vettel pulled alongside Hamilton, but as they were not parallel, contact was inevitable unless Vettel corrected his steering or backed out. But the fact that they made contact doesn't prove that the contact was deliberate. Pulling alongside Hamilton and hitting him are separate events, even if one is predicated on the other. That's why I pointed out the conjunction in the statement from the stewards. There's lack of an adjective to modify the verb "driven"; if it was deliberate, it would read "deliberately driven" or "intentionally driven". Furthermore, the specific charge was a move deemed "potentially dangerous". "Potentially" has low modality; it speaks to what could have or might have happened as opposed to what did happen as a result. The stewards were clearly more concerned about the safety of his actions than his intent, which suggests that it was an unintentional but otherwise avoidable act rather than a deliberate one.

 

[NotThePrez]

I want you to look really close at the video I posted, and especially the first 5 seconds.

After that I want you to give me a good excuse how a fully functional car can move that much without deliberate steering input.



View attachment 656878

Hey man, at least they upload quality content regularly now, and don't take down every other F1 video on Youtube* like they used too.

*Or at least, not as quickly.

 

[Dennisch]

All you can prove from the onboard footage is that Vettel pulled alongside Hamilton

Did you even watch the first 5 seconds of the video I posted, or are you just playing dumb here? Vettel comes alongside, he isn't even parallel as his car points slightly to the left. Vettel makes a sudden turn right towards Hamilton. That can only happen if something breaks in his car, or Vettel uses his steering wheel to make the wheels move.

You can try to keep this up all you want, you'll only lose more and more credibility on this site.

 

[watertank]

Maybe Vettel was just being an idiot and during waving Hamilton off, he accidentaly turned into him, or he wanted to swerve towards him and overdid it and hit him.
Either way it is still reckless from his side and he was responsible, therefore it is right he was punished.

How they handled RAI-BOT collision on the first lap was a joke though... speculative pass? wtf

 

[Jimlaad43]

They didn't punish Bottas because he came off worst in the collision. Bottas' penalty was going a lap down with a puncture and damage, which the stewards probably decided was a large enough penalty in its own right. He only came back to second because of the load of safety cars. One safety car unlapping wouldn't have been enough, but because there were a lot he had a chance to get back.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Did you even watch the first 5 seconds of the video I posted, or are you just playing dumb here? Vettel comes alongside, he isn't even parallel as his car points slightly to the left. Vettel makes a sudden turn right towards Hamilton. That can only happen if something breaks in his car, or Vettel uses his steering wheel to make the wheels move.

You can try to keep this up all you want, you'll only loose more and more credibility on this site.

You can't lose something unless you have it to begin with. PM set up an impossible standard of "proof" in order to be "right". In this case it's intent. Since it's impossible to read minds we can never know what Vettel's mindset was when the collision occured, therefore, as in a court of law, you can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt what his intent was, therefore, PM wins, in his mind anyway. He's an award winning GTP poster you know.

In fact though, intent is irrelevant. You have control of your car. You are responsible for what happens with your car. There are no mitigating circumstances that would alter your control of the car in this particular incident. No one pushed Vettel for example, there is no evidence of damage to the steering rack etc. Intent is irrelevant, he's responsible 100% for the turn into Hammy whether he intended to or it was "accidental". Whether he was thinking about the track bunny in the previous corner or in a blind rage at Hammy because Vettel got caught not paying attention a few seconds earlier or anything else for that matter, is a complete red herring. He turned into him, the responsibility is his. End of.

 

[niky]

They didn't punish Bottas because he came off worst in the collision. Bottas' penalty was going a lap down with a puncture and damage, which the stewards probably decided was a large enough penalty in its own right. He only came back to second because of the load of safety cars. One safety car unlapping wouldn't have been enough, but because there were a lot he had a chance to get back.

Yeah. That dunderheaded move still lost him drive of the day to Stroll... so there is that.