2018 Pirelli Grand Prix de FranceFormula 1

[baldgye]

C’mon....watch the replays, look at the photos I took. KMag was a country mile behind Vettel and Bottas. He jinked right for zero reason, there was nothing in front of him. How did LeClerc, ahead of Mags, make the corner, but Mags didn’t??

He overtook Kimi at the very least by going off the circuit. The excuse of “he couldn’t give the place back because Kimi was behind Leclerc” is nonsense. Watch any other series where drivers redress situations on track, if the guy you need to give a position back to is 10 spots back, then you drop back 11. You don’t get to do some “net calculation” of plus and minus who overtook who.


Silverstone 2014 (Kimi), Austria 2016 (Lewis, after Nico forced him off), KMag earlier this year in Bahrain....mark my words, the use of the paved runoff as part of the race circuit, with drivers readily using it as a primary option and rejoining the circuit at full throttle will end up causing a major problem. Either someone is going to cause a major accident, or a race win/championship will be decided by this kind of nonsense. Then and only then, in hindsight, will people get all up in arms, proclaiming something needs to be done. And I’ll be sitting here like, “oh come on guys, get over it already”

That link you clearly ignored, had the onboard replays from all involved parties.

KMag gained a position on Kimi because Kimi was boxed in after a poor start and had to back out of it, allowing Leclerc to pass him. KMag entered T1 ahead of Leclerc and exited ahead (just) of him, with Kimi there or there abouts.

When two cars are colliding in front of you, it’s generally a good idea to avoid them and any debris as to not ruin (or end) your own race.

I don’t see why I should have to trawl through your essay and blurry screenshots, when the link I provided had the actual footage.

 

[twitcher]

That link you clearly ignored, had the onboard replays from all involved parties.

KMag gained a position on Kimi because Kimi was boxed in after a poor start and had to back out of it, allowing Leclerc to pass him. KMag entered T1 ahead of Leclerc and exited ahead (just) of him, with Kimi there or there abouts.

When two cars are colliding in front of you, it’s generally a good idea to avoid them and any debris as to not ruin (or end) your own race.

I don’t see why I should have to trawl through your essay and blurry screenshots, when the link I provided had the actual footage.

I watched the replays in your link. God why is everyone on this thread so hostile? Why would you assume I ignored your links.

Watch KMag’s onboard. At what point is there an accident in front of him which he must avoid by going a country mile off the circuit?

 

[baldgye]

I watched the replays in your link. God why is everyone on this thread so hostile? Why would you assume I ignored your links.

Watch KMag’s onboard. At what point is there an accident in front of him which he must avoid by going a country mile off the circuit?

The 18 second mark. Kimi slows down to avoid the crash and KMag is too close to do the same so he moves himself out of the way. He had nowhere else to go.

I assumed you ignored my links because your post literally asked me to watch the replays I’d just linked to you, then suggested I look at your blurry screenshots?

 

[twitcher]

The 18 second mark. Kimi slows down to avoid the crash and KMag is too close to do the same so he moves himself out of the way. He had nowhere else to go.

I assumed you ignored my links because your post literally asked me to watch the replays I’d just linked to you, then suggested I look at your blurry screenshots?

No where to go??? How about the brake pedal??

You realize in two posts, you’ve said that KMag was ahead of Kimi going into T1 because Kimi got boxed in, and then follow it up with Kimi slowed, so KMag has to avoid Kimi....

The photos aren’t blurry at all. I’m looking at them on my phone, they’re clear as day. Check your eyes maybe?


Let’s go frame by frame:

Entering T1, the running order is Ham, Bottas, Vettel, Max, Dan, Kimi, Sainz, Magnessun, LeClerc.


Ham leading, Bottas spinning, Vettel making contact, Max taking to the runoff. The order behind, all on the circuit with ample braking room, is Kimi, Sainz, Magnessun outside Sainz, LeClerc following


Kimi and Sainz both slow down to miss the Vettel Bottas crash. KMag, for no reason what so ever, jinkes to the right. There is an acre of space around him on the circuit, but he still goes to the runoff. He’s still behind Kimi at this point.


Dan checks up to avoid the accident, followed by Kimi and Sainz. Sainz passes Kimi on the left, then passes Dan on the left, as both were slow from having checked up (note, both Dan and Kimi could have maintained speed and gone straight, but didn’t). LeClerc also gains on Kimi


So it’s Sainz, Dan, LeClerc, Kimi....with Mags off to the right, up to P3 ahead of all of them.


At no point before T1 was Mags ahead of Kimi, and only by virtue of cutting the circuit (and Kimi slowing to stay on the circuit) did Mags end up ahead of Kimi.

Dan, Sainz, Kimi, and LeClerc all made the corner just fine, Mags had every opportunity to do the same, but deliberately chose not to.

2 pages ago, you told me to “back up bold claims with data” (paraphrased). Now, on a different topic, I give you a bunch of photos which you openly admit you can’t be assed to look at, whilst at the same time accuse me of ignoring your “evidence”.

You’ve done a complete 180’ on your discription of T1, first saying that Mags was ahead of Kimi because Kimi got a bad start, then follow it up by saying Mags jinked right to avoid Kimi (I thought Mags was ahead of Kimi????)

You’ve said that track limits don’t matter unless a position is gained, and I’ve clearly demonstrated to you that Mags was behind Kimi, went off circuit, rejoined ahead, and never redressed....and you chose to ignore it like it didn’t happen.

At this point you’re either trolling me for teh lols, or you need to have a serious word with yourself about having friendly water cooler talk the week after a GP.

 

[Aphelion]

I'm confused, I thought one of the main rules of driving and racing a car is to avoid an accident (or items that could cause an accident) in the safest way possible using what means are available.
Must remember to check the game rules next time I swerve to avoid an accident 👍

You went over a double solid line to avoid an elderly mad who fell over in the middle of the road... GO TO JAIIILL!

 

[baldgye]

No where to go??? How about the brake pedal??

You realize in two posts, you’ve said that KMag was ahead of Kimi going into T1 because Kimi got boxed in, and then follow it up with Kimi slowed, so KMag has to avoid Kimi....

The photos aren’t blurry at all. I’m looking at them on my phone, they’re clear as day. Check your eyes maybe?


Let’s go frame by frame:

Entering T1, the running order is Ham, Bottas, Vettel, Max, Dan, Kimi, Sainz, Magnessun, LeClerc.


Ham leading, Bottas spinning, Vettel making contact, Max taking to the runoff. The order behind, all on the circuit with ample braking room, is Kimi, Sainz, Magnessun outside Sainz, LeClerc following


Kimi and Sainz both slow down to miss the Vettel Bottas crash. KMag, for no reason what so ever, jinkes to the right. There is an acre of space around him on the circuit, but he still goes to the runoff. He’s still behind Kimi at this point.


Dan checks up to avoid the accident, followed by Kimi and Sainz. Sainz passes Kimi on the left, then passes Dan on the left, as both were slow from having checked up (note, both Dan and Kimi could have maintained speed and gone straight, but didn’t). LeClerc also gains on Kimi


So it’s Sainz, Dan, LeClerc, Kimi....with Mags off to the right, up to P3 ahead of all of them.


At no point before T1 was Mags ahead of Kimi, and only by virtue of cutting the circuit (and Kimi slowing to stay on the circuit) did Mags end up ahead of Kimi.

Dan, Sainz, Kimi, and LeClerc all made the corner just fine, Mags had every opportunity to do the same, but deliberately chose not to.

2 pages ago, you told me to “back up bold claims with data” (paraphrased). Now, on a different topic, I give you a bunch of photos which you openly admit you can’t be assed to look at, whilst at the same time accuse me of ignoring your “evidence”.

You’ve done a complete 180’ on your discription of T1, first saying that Mags was ahead of Kimi because Kimi got a bad start, then follow it up by saying Mags jinked right to avoid Kimi (I thought Mags was ahead of Kimi????)

You’ve said that track limits don’t matter unless a position is gained, and I’ve clearly demonstrated to you that Mags was behind Kimi, went off circuit, rejoined ahead, and never redressed....and you chose to ignore it like it didn’t happen.

At this point you’re either trolling me for teh lols, or you need to have a serious word with yourself about having friendly water cooler talk the week after a GP.

No, I said Kimi was boxed in and KMag got ahead of Leclerc.

But I’m done, it’s exhausting chatting with you.

 

[Jimlaad43]

No where to go??? How about the brake pedal??

You realize in two posts, you’ve said that KMag was ahead of Kimi going into T1 because Kimi got boxed in, and then follow it up with Kimi slowed, so KMag has to avoid Kimi....

The photos aren’t blurry at all. I’m looking at them on my phone, they’re clear as day. Check your eyes maybe?


Let’s go frame by frame:

Entering T1, the running order is Ham, Bottas, Vettel, Max, Dan, Kimi, Sainz, Magnessun, LeClerc.


Ham leading, Bottas spinning, Vettel making contact, Max taking to the runoff. The order behind, all on the circuit with ample braking room, is Kimi, Sainz, Magnessun outside Sainz, LeClerc following


Kimi and Sainz both slow down to miss the Vettel Bottas crash. KMag, for no reason what so ever, jinkes to the right. There is an acre of space around him on the circuit, but he still goes to the runoff. He’s still behind Kimi at this point.


Dan checks up to avoid the accident, followed by Kimi and Sainz. Sainz passes Kimi on the left, then passes Dan on the left, as both were slow from having checked up (note, both Dan and Kimi could have maintained speed and gone straight, but didn’t). LeClerc also gains on Kimi


So it’s Sainz, Dan, LeClerc, Kimi....with Mags off to the right, up to P3 ahead of all of them.


At no point before T1 was Mags ahead of Kimi, and only by virtue of cutting the circuit (and Kimi slowing to stay on the circuit) did Mags end up ahead of Kimi.

Dan, Sainz, Kimi, and LeClerc all made the corner just fine, Mags had every opportunity to do the same, but deliberately chose not to.

2 pages ago, you told me to “back up bold claims with data” (paraphrased). Now, on a different topic, I give you a bunch of photos which you openly admit you can’t be assed to look at, whilst at the same time accuse me of ignoring your “evidence”.

You’ve done a complete 180’ on your discription of T1, first saying that Mags was ahead of Kimi because Kimi got a bad start, then follow it up by saying Mags jinked right to avoid Kimi (I thought Mags was ahead of Kimi????)

You’ve said that track limits don’t matter unless a position is gained, and I’ve clearly demonstrated to you that Mags was behind Kimi, went off circuit, rejoined ahead, and never redressed....and you chose to ignore it like it didn’t happen.

At this point you’re either trolling me for teh lols, or you need to have a serious word with yourself about having friendly water cooler talk the week after a GP.

Dude, please use spoilers before adding a crapton of pictures because it completely ruins the page as it all loads. It's already impossible to read your insane posts without having to scroll back to it 15 times. Your tirade is about something nobody else cares about and you're wrong about it. Please move on and try to contribute to the thread with useful discussion, not blatantly ignoring everything else others write.

 

[adb]

Kmag jumped Leclerc off the line, but beyond that, yeah, he had no reason not to take T1 normally, tbh only Max had nowhere to go, guys behind him had enough time and space to stick to the track.
Btw, just noticed Charles overtook Kimi round the outside of T2

 

[twitcher]

Edit, meant to quote Jim, but the quote didn’t show up

Dude, please use spoilers before adding a crapton of pictures because it completely ruins the page as it all loads. It's already impossible to read your insane posts without having to scroll back to it 15 times. Your tirade is about something nobody else cares about and you're wrong about it. Please move on and try to contribute to the thread with useful discussion, not blatantly ignoring everything else others write.

I’ll admt the first post was big...but 5 pics is a crap ton?? From my days back in the photo mode section, spoilers do nothing to aliviate the load times.

How is it impossible to read? Paragraphs, sentences....what’s too difficult?

I’m wrong??? How am I wrong Jim? Here, how about this. F1 doesn’t need halo, and you’re wrong for thinking so. Stew on that for a while

What is useful contribution? Are you the judge of what is useful? Seems like you guys only want people to post things you agree with :eyeroll:

Jim watch, there’s going to be an accident caused by people abusing track limits like this, and you’ll be the first one ranting and raving about safety and your marshalling experience and the like. It’s gonna happen, trust me

I haven’t ignored a single thing others have written. In fact, I’ve pretty much directly responded to everyone who has engaged with me. I disagree with many of your guys’s defense of the driver’s actions (lord knows why you guys feel the need to defend them to the extent you do), but I’m not ignoring what you’re saying.....you’re just not saying anything that makes logical sense. You’ve blantantly defended the use of the runoff as part of the racetrack, and for no other reason than, “no one cares”.


Sorry, apologies if that was too difficult for you to read Jim.

 

[Dennisch]

It's as if the (un)cool wall is back.

 

[Bram Turismo]

The wings are wider, but that wouldn’t automatically make DRS stronger?
I’m no aerodynamicist so I’m not really sure but with weaker front wing and a simpler rear wouldn’t they run with a nice low package (similar to Monza another not as extreme) thus making it not as strong as the packages this last weekend?

The wider rear wing doesn't increase DRS, but I do believe the gap in the rear wing when DRS is active is increased by 10mm for next year. Thus, even more air is allowed to travel through the rear wing. The other aero changes are to decrease the turbulent air left behind by the leading car, so that the following car can stay closer to it during cornering.

That's the way I understood the changes for next year, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Jimlaad43]

If, as you seem to make it plain to see, you decide to think statements are invalid because they conflict your odd views, why should I, or anyone else, bother reading what you write?

 

[twitcher]

If, as you seem to make it plain to see, you decide to think statements are invalid because they conflict your odd views, why should I, or anyone else, bother reading what you write?

My odd views??

My view is that KMag gained track position by unnecessarily cutting the circuit. He was behind Kimi, Kimi slowed for the accident, KMag took a short cut, and passed Kimi.

My view is that is wrong, and the places should have been reversed at the very least.

That constitutes an “odd” view in your opinion????

Any statement made which opposed my position that KMag gained track position off the circuit needs to be backed up with evidence, photo or video. I chose to disregard statements which are basically saying “KMag did not make up track position by going off circut”, because those statements are in direct contradiction to what actually happened.

I’m not forcing you to read what I write....but if you don’t want to read what I write, then don’t respond to me. And furthermore, don’t respond with nothing more than, “I disagree, no one cares, stop talking.” You talk about useful contributions, yet your last 3 posts have been nothing but telling me to shut up.

Edit: I forgot to mention earlier

@baldgye, you want to complain that the photos I linked are “too blurry” for you to decipher, yet the only “data” as you like to call it that you can provide is a glitching video that happens to cut out at the crucial moment. Well done sir, well done 👍

If you’re only argument is that KMag couldn’t slow down, then that’s KMags fault for going in too hot, and it’s a mistake that should have negative consequences - not net gain a position (over Kimi).

 

[Peter.]

They definitely got a lot of things wrong with this race as it pertains to policing runoff. DRS was also too strong going into the chicane. Paul Ricard in this current layout has potential though. The chicane is a good spot to overtake at, if DRS was a little more balanced. There were other parts of the track I initially didn't think were overtake friendly but turned out to provide good, non DRS assisted passes.

The biggest problem with this race if anything was how much of a formality it was from lap 1. Hamilton more or less ran unopposed up front, especially since Bottas and Vettel were out of the picture from turn 1. The Renault and Haas cars were more or less in their usual best of the rest positions from the start, unchallenged by Alonso or the Force Indias who usually gives them trouble but had lap 1 issues. One stop strategies being the dominant strategy also played a big role. Why weren't the Hypers brought if the Ultras can do half the race?

Paul Ricard left a lot to be desired, but can be improved upon next year. Wouldn't mind seeing it back next year with softer compounds, less powerful DRS, better policing of runoff areas, and retention of the chicane, as one long straight would turn this into something similar to Monza where racing is mostly terrible.

Side note, you gotta feel it for Alonso. Last week he was winning Le Mans, this week he can't even get fastest lap on a fresh set of Ultras with a few laps left, ending with a dislocated wheel. McLaren said they'd be going forwards, but it's only backwards so far. Pitiful.

 

[baldgye]

@baldgye, you want to complain that the photos I linked are “too blurry” for you to decipher, yet the only “data” as you like to call it that you can provide is a glitching video that happens to cut out at the crucial moment. Well done sir, well done 👍

If you’re only argument is that KMag couldn’t slow down, then that’s KMags fault for going in too hot, and it’s a mistake that should have negative consequences - not net gain a position (over Kimi).

This is a good example of why chatting to you is so tiring.
The video footage (that I didn’t called data), while glitchy shows all you need -the rapid deceleration of Kimi right in front of KMag - if he had braked he would have hit Kimi and thus he went to the run off. Afterwhich he gave back positions to everyone it was reasonable too.

 

[twitcher]

This is a good example of why chatting to you is so tiring.
The video footage (that I didn’t called data), while glitchy shows all you need -the rapid deceleration of Kimi right in front of KMag - if he had braked he would have hit Kimi and thus he went to the run off. Afterwhich he gave back positions to everyone it was reasonable too.

That video is terrible And Kimi doesn’t decelerate at such a rapid rate that KMag would be unable to stop. Why was everyone else, people in front of KMag, people behind KMag, able to slow down in time, but he wasn’t?

Who is the judge of “everyone it was reasonable to”? KMag judges that himself, on the fly?

The fact that LeClerc passed Kimi doesn’t mean that KMag gets to stay ahead of Kimi. He passed Kimi off the circuit, therefore he needs to give the position back to Kimi. That’s how redressing a position works....not some fly-by-night decision of “what feels reasonable”.