2018 Pirelli Grand Prix de FranceFormula 1

[baldgye]

Has anyone considered the idea of removing the chicane, but also removing the DRS zone on the back Straight? It would be interesting to see if, on a Straight that long, these cars could slipstream past one another without the aid of DRS.

I’m all for the removal of the chicane, but I wonder if the drs would be over powered.

I like the idea of removing the DRS (unless it had unlimited use), but I think next season it should be a fair bit weaker due to the new aero regs coming in

 

[hasslemoff]

For a race track, and furthermore one hosting F1 with the “best drivers in the world”, it’s a terrible idea. The made a laughing stock of the white painted lines on lap 1, with close to 10 drivers cutting significant potions of the track to “avoid debris”.

Damn it man....HIT THE DEBRIS!! Or slow down enough to drive around it. I think it’s pathetic that in an online race, max would never have been allowed to cut the circuit like that, the AI policing track limits would never allow it. Yet in the real, the “best drivers in the world” are allowed to do it.

I'm confused, I thought one of the main rules of driving and racing a car is to avoid an accident (or items that could cause an accident) in the safest way possible using what means are available.
Must remember to check the game rules next time I swerve to avoid an accident 👍

 

[adb]

I like the idea of removing the DRS (unless it had unlimited use), but I think next season it should be a fair bit weaker due to the new aero regs coming in

They are changing rear end of cars to make DRS stronger

 

[baldgye]

They are changing rear end of cars to make DRS stronger

The wings are wider, but that wouldn’t automatically make DRS stronger?
I’m no aerodynamicist so I’m not really sure but with weaker front wing and a simpler rear wouldn’t they run with a nice low package (similar to Monza another not as extreme) thus making it not as strong as the packages this last weekend?

 

[twitcher]

I'm confused, I thought one of the main rules of driving and racing a car is to avoid an accident (or items that could cause an accident) in the safest way possible using what means are available.
Must remember to check the game rules next time I swerve to avoid an accident 👍

Lol Mr Sarcastic, you’re missing the point. Swerve to avoid debris, fine, but do so by staying within the white lines. Treat the white lines as if they were walls. If that means that you have to nearly come to a stop to pick your way through debris, so be it.

If a driver’s only option is to take to the paved runoff, then they should have to face a steep penalty for doing so. What max did, a simple jink to the right, then plant his foot to the floor as he accelerated across the runoff, that was a joke

The white lines and track limits need to be strictly and harshly enforced, just like they are in every other sport.

Again, look at soccer. The white lines which deliniate the playing area are strictly enforced. There’s no listening to players excuses as to why they ended up out of bounds. Out is out. Furthermore, the boundaries in soccer could be enforced with walls, like they are in hockey. This would cause a lot more injuries, so the walls are removed, replaced with a white line, but the “spirit of the wall” remains in that you cannot play outside the designated playing area; doing so results in a forfeit of position. It should be the same in raving, certainly at the F1 level. Out should be out, and should be penalized accordingly. If the circuit organizers won’t put barriers or traffic cones that drivers need to navigate through after exiting the circuit, then the only way I can see of punishing drivers from abusing tarmac runnoff (or simply short cutting the circuit like in Mexico) is to hand out Drive Through penalties with a zero tolerance policy.

 

[Jimlaad43]

I’m all for the removal of the chicane, but I wonder if the drs would be over powered.

It would just be similar to Baku, except you'll have two cars trying to go side-by-side into Signes at 230mph. Exciting yes, but when it will go wrong, it will go really wrong.

Same corner but in 1982.

Still, Stroll's puncture showed that there is enough runoff there that it won't be a problem.

RE Tarmac vs Gravel Traps.
Gravel is becoming obsolete because tarmac is better at allowing drivers to have "safer" accidents. Paul Ricard was built as a test track, so the tarmac was designed to destroy the tyres and stop the cars hitting walls in accidents so the teams didn't have to stop testing to get someone out of the gravel or wall. The fact they're starting to race there now doesn't really affect anything. Yeah, it does mean we won't see mistakes punished with cars in the gravel, and it may be an issue in the wet, but is that really a problem?

Ericsson's fire was nothing to do with the runoff being inadequate. He hit a wall and something got hot and caught fire. Blaming that on red stripes is just stupid. The same thing could happen at Baku, Montreal, Silverstone, Abu Dhabi etc. Surely you should be congratulating him at making it to a wall with all that runoff.

Track Limits weren't really being abused this weekend at all. Vettel went wide at turn 6 onto the blue stuff, but apart form that, I can't think of anywhere else on the circuit where drivers were using the blue stuff to abuse track limits, I just saw it on the normal kerbs that they do it everywhere else.

People need to stop seeing safety as a bad thing because the moaning is ruining the sport for people who can be bothered to understand why stuff happens.

 

[Jakedog23]

I like the idea of removing the DRS (unless it had unlimited use), but I think next season it should be a fair bit weaker due to the new aero regs coming in

I personally wish that they got rid of DRS and made something similar to IndyCar's Push to Pass.

 

[hasslemoff]

Lol Mr Sarcastic, you’re missing the point. Swerve to avoid debris, fine, but do so by staying within the white lines. Treat the white lines as if they were walls. If that means that you have to nearly come to a stop to pick your way through debris, so be it.

If a driver’s only option is to take to the paved runoff, then they should have to face a steep penalty for doing so. What max did, a simple jink to the right, then plant his foot to the floor as he accelerated across the runoff, that was a joke

The white lines and track limits need to be strictly and harshly enforced, just like they are in every other sport.

Again, look at soccer. The white lines which deliniate the playing area are strictly enforced. There’s no listening to players excuses as to why they ended up out of bounds. Out is out. Furthermore, the boundaries in soccer could be enforced with walls, like they are in hockey. This would cause a lot more injuries, so the walls are removed, replaced with a white line, but the “spirit of the wall” remains in that you cannot play outside the designated playing area; doing so results in a forfeit of position. It should be the same in raving, certainly at the F1 level. Out should be out, and should be penalized accordingly. If the circuit organizers won’t put barriers or traffic cones that drivers need to navigate through after exiting the circuit, then the only way I can see of punishing drivers from abusing tarmac runnoff (or simply short cutting the circuit like in Mexico) is to hand out Drive Through penalties with a zero tolerance policy.

Following your rule Max would of had to stop to near enough a halt to stay inbetween the white lines with 17 cars behind him going into the 1st corner after a race start just so he could avoid a penalty, other option going over the white lines to presumably avoid a major crash and then receive a drive through penalty.
Common sense option go over white lines re join track with no position gained, no penalty and not causing any accidents behind you.

Same as the t5 incident, common sense is the best option with drivers avoiding other people's mistakes.

I get your point but a common sense approach with track limits to avoid incidents is the best rule, yes if you make a mistake then you should be punished, but not for avoidance.


I would love to see less run off areas and closer walls to really test drivers, but I prefer to see everyone who goes to a motorsport event able to walk away.

 

[twitcher]

It would just be similar to Baku, except you'll have two cars trying to go side-by-side into Signes at 230mph. Exciting yes, but when it will go wrong, it will go really wrong.

Same corner but in 1982.

Still, Stroll's puncture showed that there is enough runoff there that it won't be a problem.

RE Tarmac vs Gravel Traps.
Gravel is becoming obsolete because tarmac is better at allowing drivers to have "safer" accidents. Paul Ricard was built as a test track, so the tarmac was designed to destroy the tyres and stop the cars hitting walls in accidents so the teams didn't have to stop testing to get someone out of the gravel or wall. The fact they're starting to race there now doesn't really affect anything. Yeah, it does mean we won't see mistakes punished with cars in the gravel, and it may be an issue in the wet, but is that really a problem?

Yes, not seeing mistakes punished is a massive problem. I’ll concede that tarmac is a better option, but the track limits need to enforced as if the tarmac was not there. Currently, drivers are using runoff as a legit option to get racing moves done, a la Max at the first chicane.

If the gravel must be removed in the name of safety, then step up the punishment that drivers receive for running across it.

Ericsson's fire was nothing to do with the runoff being inadequate. He hit a wall and something got hot and caught fire. Blaming that on red stripes is just stupid.

I’m not blaming the fire specifically on “red stripes”. Assuming that’s what I meant would be, stupid.

Track Limits weren't really being abused this weekend at all. Vettel went wide at turn 6 onto the blue stuff, but apart form that, I can't think of anywhere else on the circuit where drivers were using the blue stuff to abuse track limits, I just saw it on the normal kerbs that they do it everywhere else.

Track limits not abused? I think you need to rewarch the first lap. There were cars all over the place, both at the first chicane, and at the 3/4/5 complex.

I don’t know how anyone who follows racing can watch what max did and say, “yup, that was ok”.

People need to stop seeing safety as a bad thing because the moaning is ruining the sport for people who can be bothered to understand why stuff happens.

Safety doesn’t need to be a bad thing, but we can have safer circuits and enforce track limits at the same time. I’m not moaning for the sake of moaning, I’m pointing out ways I think the sport could improve itself.

 

[twitcher]

Following your rule Max would of had to stop to near enough a halt to stay inbetween the white lines with 17 cars behind him going into the 1st corner after a race start just so he could avoid a penalty, other option going over the white lines to presumably avoid a major crash and then receive a drive through penalty.
Common sense option go over white lines re join track with no position gained, no penalty and not causing any accidents behind you.

Same as the t5 incident, common sense is the best option with drivers avoiding other people's mistakes.

I get your point but a common sense approach with track limits to avoid incidents is the best rule, yes if you make a mistake then you should be punished, but not for avoidance.


I would love to see less run off areas and closer walls to really test drivers, but I prefer to see everyone who goes to a motorsport event able to walk away.

Correct, that would be Max’s two options. Either slow down, possibly nearly to a stop, or take to the runoff and cop a drive through. 🤬 happens. This race, Max would have been screwed by someone else’s mistake, in another race, he might profit from someone else’s mistake. That’s racing.

The problem is that if you give the drivers and inch, they take a mile. The runoff was added for their protection and safety, and now they abuse it. Drivers go into T1 looking for the tiniest little excuse to bail out of the corner and short cut across the runnoff.

Max’s offence in France was particularly bad, compared to some other T1s on the calanfer like Austria or Hockenheim. Max legit took one of the alternate track configurations, then cut across the blue stripes, all while at full throttle. If this is allowed, why bother even trying to make the corner in T1 lap 1? Why not just use the “alternate line” that goes a country mile off the circuit?

Again, look at soccer. There’s all kind of “common sense” you could apply when a ball goes out of bounds; every player would have a book full of stories as to why it wasn’t their fault, they had no other option, blah blah blah. Who cares. Out is out.

 

[hasslemoff]

Correct, that would be Max’s two options. Either slow down, possibly nearly to a stop, or take to the runoff and cop a drive through. 🤬 happens. This race, Max would have been screwed by someone else’s mistake, in another race, he might profit from someone else’s mistake. That’s racing.

The problem is that if you give the drivers and inch, they take a mile. The runoff was added for their protection and safety, and now they abuse it. Drivers go into T1 looking for the tiniest little excuse to bail out of the corner and short cut across the runnoff.

Max’s offence in France was particularly bad, compared to some other T1s on the calanfer like Austria or Hockenheim. Max legit took one of the alternate track configurations, then cut across the blue stripes, all while at full throttle. If this is allowed, why bother even trying to make the corner in T1 lap 1? Why not just use the “alternate line” that goes a country mile off the circuit?

Again, look at soccer. There’s all kind of “common sense” you could apply when a ball goes out of bounds; every player would have a book full of stories as to why it wasn’t

Correct, that would be Max’s two options. Either slow down, possibly nearly to a stop, or take to the runoff and cop a drive through. 🤬 happens. This race, Max would have been screwed by someone else’s mistake, in another race, he might profit from someone else’s mistake. That’s racing.

The problem is that if you give the drivers and inch, they take a mile. The runoff was added for their protection and safety, and now they abuse it. Drivers go into T1 looking for the tiniest little excuse to bail out of the corner and short cut across the runnoff.

Max’s offence in France was particularly bad, compared to some other T1s on the calanfer like Austria or Hockenheim. Max legit took one of the alternate track configurations, then cut across the blue stripes, all while at full throttle. If this is allowed, why bother even trying to make the corner in T1 lap 1? Why not just use the “alternate line” that goes a country mile off the circuit?

Again, look at soccer. There’s all kind of “common sense” you could apply when a ball goes out of bounds; every player would have a book full of stories as to why it wasn’t their fault, they had no other option, blah blah blah. Who cares. Out is out.

So you believe stopping to a near standstill in turn 1 at the start of the race is the best idea to produce better racing because once a ball is out its out 👍

 

[twitcher]

So you believe stopping to a near standstill in turn 1 at the start of the race is the best idea to produce better racing because once a ball is out its out 👍

Can you provide a quote where I said that?

To clarify for you, I think if all the drivers are forced to stay on the circuit at basically all times, in the long run, it will produce better racing. I don’t in any way, shape, or form consider what Max did as “good racing”. You can if you want, but in my opinion, that’s a sorry ass excuse for “good racing”.

Perhaps it’s too much for your mental capacity, but imagine there was Armco the whole way around the circuit. What would Max have done then?? Drive through the Armco?

Also, no need for the sarcastic, passive aggressive 👍 when you over simplify my point in an attempt to make me look stupid 👍

 

[hasslemoff]

Can you provide a quote where I said that?

To clarify for you, I think if all the drivers are forced to stay on the circuit at basically all times, in the long run, it will produce better racing. I don’t in any way, shape, or form consider what Max did as “good racing”. You can if you want, but in my opinion, that’s a sorry ass excuse for “good racing”.

Perhaps it’s too much for your mental capacity, but imagine there was Armco the whole way around the circuit. What would Max have done then?? Drive through the Armco?

Also, no need for the sarcastic, passive aggressive 👍 when you over simplify my point in an attempt to make me look stupid 👍

Apologies if you think im attempting to make you look stupid or think I'm been passive aggressive.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Correct, that would be Max’s two options. Either slow down, possibly nearly to a stop, or take to the runoff and cop a drive through. 🤬 happens. This race, Max would have been screwed by someone else’s mistake, in another race, he might profit from someone else’s mistake. That’s racing.

In Option One he causes a further hazard alongside an accident that's already happening and, arguably, by trying to stay in the track he could easily become part of that same accident. He took Option Two and left the track... but sensibly kept his speed up so that when he rejoined the track he wasn't rejoining with the cars that had made it past the accident. It looked like good instinctive driving to me (and I think Verstappen is a proper prat sometimes). He would also have been fully aware that all he had to do was keep his position in what was clearly going to be a SC call.

 

[twitcher]

Apologies if you think im attempting to make you look stupid or think I'm been passive aggressive.

Well, if you’re not trying to be, apologies for thinking you were. I just don’t really appreciate people pulling the old, “so what you’re saying is - insert absurd interpretation and/or gross over simplification.”

Anyways, moving on.

I’ve gone back and watched the replay a number of times, I suggest you guys do the same. I can’t believe you will sit here and make excuses for the drivers, when it’s us that’s being robbed of seeing propper “good driving”. The most telling view is the helicopter view of the race start.

@TenEightyOne, you don’t think Max could have slowed down, because he would have been hit from behind? Surely you must believe that the 16 of 20 greatest drivers in the world behind Max have the ability to arrest their vehicle while approaching a corner no? Ok I’m done being facetious. Seriously though, I get what you’re saying, but I’m saying tough luck. Then it’s up to the guys behind Max to not hit Max. They shouldn’t be going banzaie into T1 in a way that they can’t control their car if something in front of them happens.


Just some food for thought for the thread....some “data”, if you will.









This is when KMags thinks, “good idea Max, good idea!!”




Max, neck and neck with Hamilton for the lead. Also note that one of the Force Indias, and pretty sure that’s Stoff, also decide to investigate the paved area to driver’s right of the circuit....for some completely unknown reason.




His plan having worked beautifully, The Teflon Don decides to tuck in behind Hamilton, so as not to fully give away the scheme


KMags rejoins P3. Knowing he’s the “bad boy of F1”, and not the Teflon Don, KMags backs off to let a couple people through.


A couple screenshot got corrupted uploading, but basically, KMags lets Sainz and Ricciardo through, before starting to race LeClerc and Kimi (note that all those just mentioned stayed on the circuit). When the leading 7 go single file into T3 and T4, KMags is P5, up from P8 going into T1.




To me, that’s a bunch of bull 🤬 Neither Max nore KMags needed to cut across the pavement to the extent they did, and most definitely not at the speed they did. I really don’t understand how this can be an acceptable standard at what is supposed to be the pinnacle of a sport.

To be clear, I’m not trying to go on an angree tirade against anyone, but come on people...we must demand better than this!! One week, we watch the procession in Monaco, marveling at the way the drivers weave their way through the concrete and Armco, we praise their precision, we call them the best in the world....and the a few weeks later, this.

Here’s an idea.....perhaps Max didn’t end up out there “by accidenent”, or because he had “no where to go” Anyone consider the thought that was his plan all along? Look at the overheads. Where the hell was he going to go had Bottas and Vettel made the corner? After the precedent set in Mexico over the last couple of years with drivers not receiving punishment for short cutting portions of the circuit, if I’m Max, lining up P4 on the grid, outside into T1.....this is my plan all along. Go outside on someone into T1, and if they so much as cough or sneeze, we bail out to the right, foot to the floor across the extra grippy blue tarmac.

And that was just T1 and T2. Things get even more pathetic down in the second half of the grid in T3, 4, & 5.

It start with contact between Vettel and Grosjean, with Vettel running into the back of the Haas as he cut into the apex of T3.

Before I get into the pics, I think it’s worth noting this is now the 2nd car Vettel has made contact with on the opening lap. I’m not 100% clear on the rules regarding driving a damaged car, but when he hit Roman, his nose was already broken, meaning he had basically zero front down force. He doesn’t really have an excuse, he shouldn’t have been there at all....he’s the one freaking guy who should have been taking advantage of the miles of runoff, not trying to race wheel to wheel with a broken car. Going back to my soccer analogies, Vettel would be on 1 yellow card for his contact with Bottas, a second yellow followed by a red for his contact with Grosjean. Bye bye, hit the showers.

So, on with the clown show:

Vettel taps Roman’s Haas.




This is now post contact with Grosjean and Vettel. Note their car positions, and note Hulkenberg on Vettel’s left.


Grosjean now decides his car only turns left, and Hulkenberg spots something off in the distance


Ocon and Gasley having their accident to the right of Ericsson. In this situation, Ericsson is the one guy I can maybe see justification for him taking to the runoff, given the trajectory that Ocon and Gasley would be on. Still though...




The Williams, can’t tell which it is, and Vandoorne have absolutely no excuse or reason. They could easily have slowed and stayed on the circuit




And here is the clown train rejoining the circuit. Notice how there’s a beautifully painted “of you happen to use this runnoff, please re-enter the circuit this way, pretty please, if it’s not too much to ask, o best drivers of thee world”. Some French line painter is pissed no one used his beautiful rejoin lane. I’ll take a shot in the dark and guess that this wasn’t discussed in the driver’s briefing...because why would you need to discuss track limits on lap 1 in an F1 drivers briefing, these guys are pros!!




Last, then I’m done, T3 from a different angle. The camera panning missed the initial contact between Grosjean and Vettel, but caught up a split second after.

Check the position of Hulkenberg...I dare someone to make a case that he was “forced off the circuit”


I dunno...from this angle, Ericsson’s case looks a little suspicious








Alonso and Hartley were the only ones who did it correctly. Alonso very correctly, he nearly got involved, but he managed to thread the needle, and stay on the circuit. I actually didn’t realize this until going through these replays, but THIS is why Alonso was so far behind right from the start (even before his early pit stop) - because he actually kept his car on the circuit, unlike nearly the entire rest of the field.




Like I said, just some food for thought. I really suggest people try to track down some replays. Watch them a few times over, pay attention to all the cars, not just Max....it’s pretty disgusting. They don’t make the slightest effort to stay on the circuit. The paved runoff is their for the driver’s safety, not so they can make a mockery of what it means to “race ON a circuit”.

 

[mustafur]

I didn't like it, even though Verstappen made the right choice IMO to go off track to avoid damage he clearly abused it by going full speed and making an advantage, Ricciardo was alongside him and Ricciardo backed off to make the corner properly and lost a position in the process.

I don't know how you can police it though, this is split second stuff.

I guess on the obvious corners like T1 make a detour road that you must follow would be the most fair.

 

[twitcher]

After the incedent with Lewis in Mexico, what was that, 2 years ago now?...how could someone in F1 not see this coming? The “fixed” Mexico last year by putting some foam blocks and more curbs and stuff....at the circuit with the most runoff in the history of runoff, they did nothing. Not even some foam blocks.

Found this on Twitter, the comments in it are pretty golden


And found this in the comments, in regards to all the clowns who went off at T4.



How do you police it? I’d start with transponders in the car, like what is used in both Indycar and Aussie supercars...maybe F1 can come up with a high tech version of what the hill billies and bogens use. Indycar uses them on the pit lane exit at Longbeach, Aussies use them for curb strikes at places like Adelaide and Surfers.

If a car trips the transponder, race conteol is automatically notified. I’d have the system configure such that it would instantly pull up all relevant replay footage for the stewards to instantly review. Even with as many offences an incedents as there were on the opening lap here, a team of 5-10 professional officials should be able to review the tape and quickly make a judgement call within a couple of laps. It only took myself all of 2-3 minutes to watch the relavent replays a couple times and pull out 9 offenders (plus Vettel with a double yellow card) who I would automatically give drive through penalties to. Given the replay footage, none of them were “forced” off the circuit, and they all had somewhere on the circuit they could have gone. Harsh, absolutely. It might take a few races, maybe a few seasons, maybe even a full generation of drivers, but eventually they’d get it. Then we can have nice safe tracks with ample runoff, and drivers staying on the circuit proper, not using the runoff like it’s a secondary option to the race course. The circuit is the first, and only, option - just like it was back in the day. That’s how you preserve the essence, but make it safer at the same time.

 

[baldgye]

I personally wish that they got rid of DRS and made something similar to IndyCar's Push to Pass.

Wouldn’t that just be driver deployed KERS?
I’m kinda with you. Largely because in the F1 game where you could quali with KERS and DRS anywhere, those laps where so much fun. You as a player had so much more to manage and extract out of the car

 

[adb]

The wings are wider, but that wouldn’t automatically make DRS stronger?
I’m no aerodynamicist so I’m not really sure but with weaker front wing and a simpler rear wouldn’t they run with a nice low package (similar to Monza another not as extreme) thus making it not as strong as the packages this last weekend?

Not sure, I’m just saying what I read:
https://www.racefans.net/2018/05/10/enhanced-drs-will-be-available-more-often-in-2019/
I don’t know, but if they make simpler front wings and bigger rear wings, it kind of makes sense that relative to whole car’s drag, the drag reduction will be bigger as if compared to this year’s car

 

[baldgye]

Not sure, I’m just saying what I read:
https://www.racefans.net/2018/05/10/enhanced-drs-will-be-available-more-often-in-2019/
I don’t know, but if they make simpler front wings and bigger rear wings, it kind of makes sense that relative to whole car’s drag, the drag reduction will be bigger as if compared to this year’s car

Yeah seems you where right

“The DRS effect will increase by approximately 25 to 30%,” estimated the FIA’s head of single-seater technical matters Nikolas Tombazis.

“The delta of the drag of the car when it opens the DRS and deploys it to currently will be bigger, so the delta of speed of the following car will be bigger by that amount as a result. Hence the probability that it can approach the front car will increase.”

That’s a pretty massive increase, I didn’t think it would be so much!

 

[Jimlaad43]

It's amazing how much effort some people go to to prove a point that doesn't need to be made. People cut chicanes all the time, and if it can be justified as avoiding an accident, it's fine. Yes, if it was a turn 1 like Baku, Max would have been screwed, but the whole point of race tracks is that every one is different. You need some with chicanes as the first corner, some with sweeping corners and some with tight corners leading onto another straight.

The phrase "get over it" seems to be quite apt here...

 

[Dotini]

...the whole point of race tracks is that every one is different. You need some with chicanes as the first corner, some with sweeping corners and some with tight corners leading onto another straight.

Are there some races tracks that are needless, or pointless? Paul Ricard has redefined itself as an ultra-safe test track. Personally, I don't think it has any real place as a Grand Prix - except as a place holder for a better, more challenging track in France. Why not run the French GP at the Sarthe circuit?

 

[Liquid]

Well, if you’re not trying to be, apologies for thinking you were. I just don’t really appreciate people pulling the old, “so what you’re saying is - insert absurd interpretation and/or gross over simplification.”

Anyways, moving on.

I’ve gone back and watched the replay a number of times, I suggest you guys do the same. I can’t believe you will sit here and make excuses for the drivers, when it’s us that’s being robbed of seeing propper “good driving”. The most telling view is the helicopter view of the race start.

@TenEightyOne, you don’t think Max could have slowed down, because he would have been hit from behind? Surely you must believe that the 16 of 20 greatest drivers in the world behind Max have the ability to arrest their vehicle while approaching a corner no? Ok I’m done being facetious. Seriously though, I get what you’re saying, but I’m saying tough luck. Then it’s up to the guys behind Max to not hit Max. They shouldn’t be going banzaie into T1 in a way that they can’t control their car if something in front of them happens.


Just some food for thought for the thread....some “data”, if you will.









This is when KMags thinks, “good idea Max, good idea!!”




Max, neck and neck with Hamilton for the lead. Also note that one of the Force Indias, and pretty sure that’s Stoff, also decide to investigate the paved area to driver’s right of the circuit....for some completely unknown reason.




His plan having worked beautifully, The Teflon Don decides to tuck in behind Hamilton, so as not to fully give away the scheme


KMags rejoins P3. Knowing he’s the “bad boy of F1”, and not the Teflon Don, KMags backs off to let a couple people through.


A couple screenshot got corrupted uploading, but basically, KMags lets Sainz and Ricciardo through, before starting to race LeClerc and Kimi (note that all those just mentioned stayed on the circuit). When the leading 7 go single file into T3 and T4, KMags is P5, up from P8 going into T1.




To me, that’s a bunch of bull 🤬 Neither Max nore KMags needed to cut across the pavement to the extent they did, and most definitely not at the speed they did. I really don’t understand how this can be an acceptable standard at what is supposed to be the pinnacle of a sport.

To be clear, I’m not trying to go on an angree tirade against anyone, but come on people...we must demand better than this!! One week, we watch the procession in Monaco, marveling at the way the drivers weave their way through the concrete and Armco, we praise their precision, we call them the best in the world....and the a few weeks later, this.

Here’s an idea.....perhaps Max didn’t end up out there “by accidenent”, or because he had “no where to go” Anyone consider the thought that was his plan all along? Look at the overheads. Where the hell was he going to go had Bottas and Vettel made the corner? After the precedent set in Mexico over the last couple of years with drivers not receiving punishment for short cutting portions of the circuit, if I’m Max, lining up P4 on the grid, outside into T1.....this is my plan all along. Go outside on someone into T1, and if they so much as cough or sneeze, we bail out to the right, foot to the floor across the extra grippy blue tarmac.

And that was just T1 and T2. Things get even more pathetic down in the second half of the grid in T3, 4, & 5.

It start with contact between Vettel and Grosjean, with Vettel running into the back of the Haas as he cut into the apex of T3.

Before I get into the pics, I think it’s worth noting this is now the 2nd car Vettel has made contact with on the opening lap. I’m not 100% clear on the rules regarding driving a damaged car, but when he hit Roman, his nose was already broken, meaning he had basically zero front down force. He doesn’t really have an excuse, he shouldn’t have been there at all....he’s the one freaking guy who should have been taking advantage of the miles of runoff, not trying to race wheel to wheel with a broken car. Going back to my soccer analogies, Vettel would be on 1 yellow card for his contact with Bottas, a second yellow followed by a red for his contact with Grosjean. Bye bye, hit the showers.

So, on with the clown show:

Vettel taps Roman’s Haas.




This is now post contact with Grosjean and Vettel. Note their car positions, and note Hulkenberg on Vettel’s left.


Grosjean now decides his car only turns left, and Hulkenberg spots something off in the distance


Ocon and Gasley having their accident to the right of Ericsson. In this situation, Ericsson is the one guy I can maybe see justification for him taking to the runoff, given the trajectory that Ocon and Gasley would be on. Still though...




The Williams, can’t tell which it is, and Vandoorne have absolutely no excuse or reason. They could easily have slowed and stayed on the circuit




And here is the clown train rejoining the circuit. Notice how there’s a beautifully painted “of you happen to use this runnoff, please re-enter the circuit this way, pretty please, if it’s not too much to ask, o best drivers of thee world”. Some French line painter is pissed no one used his beautiful rejoin lane. I’ll take a shot in the dark and guess that this wasn’t discussed in the driver’s briefing...because why would you need to discuss track limits on lap 1 in an F1 drivers briefing, these guys are pros!!




Last, then I’m done, T3 from a different angle. The camera panning missed the initial contact between Grosjean and Vettel, but caught up a split second after.

Check the position of Hulkenberg...I dare someone to make a case that he was “forced off the circuit”


I dunno...from this angle, Ericsson’s case looks a little suspicious








Alonso and Hartley were the only ones who did it correctly. Alonso very correctly, he nearly got involved, but he managed to thread the needle, and stay on the circuit. I actually didn’t realize this until going through these replays, but THIS is why Alonso was so far behind right from the start (even before his early pit stop) - because he actually kept his car on the circuit, unlike nearly the entire rest of the field.




Like I said, just some food for thought. I really suggest people try to track down some replays. Watch them a few times over, pay attention to all the cars, not just Max....it’s pretty disgusting. They don’t make the slightest effort to stay on the circuit. The paved runoff is their for the driver’s safety, not so they can make a mockery of what it means to “race ON a circuit”.

Scrolling through this post gave me a headache.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Are there some races tracks that are needless, or pointless? Paul Ricard has redefined itself as an ultra-safe test track. Personally, I don't think it has any real place as a Grand Prix - except as a place holder for a better, more challenging track in France. Why not run the French GP at the Sarthe circuit?

We just got a French GP that was better than every dry race at Magny-Cours because the layout allowed overtaking to happen both at traditional spots (heavy braking at the end of long straights) and exciting and awesome spots (The long right hander after Signes). Magny-Cours always just spread the cars apart. La Sarthe will never happen. The track is too long for 20 cars only, the bumps are too much for F1 and the track is only FIA Grade 2. We want it, but it will never happen because it would just be a disappointment.

But because this is the internet and we don't like anything F1 ever does, we have to find something to complain about.

 

[Touring Mars]

It might take a few races, maybe a few seasons, maybe even a full generation of drivers, but eventually they’d get it.

I think the transponder idea is good, but I honestly don't think the sport really needs it - that said, the stewards ought to be a bit quicker to pull up obvious infractions - on a side note, I laughed when they decided on 'no further action' against Grosjean for a Lap 1 incident at about lap 25 of the race - and people think VAR is slow?!

Scrolling through this post gave me a headache.

Me too, I need a lie down in a darkened room now.

Vettel taps Roman’s Haas.

Yes, but who enjoyed it the most?

 

[twitcher]

It's amazing how much effort some people go to to prove a point that doesn't need to be made. People cut chicanes all the time, and if it can be justified as avoiding an accident, it's fine. Yes, if it was a turn 1 like Baku, Max would have been screwed, but the whole point of race tracks is that every one is different. You need some with chicanes as the first corner, some with sweeping corners and some with tight corners leading onto another straight.

The phrase "get over it" seems to be quite apt here...

For someone who likes talking about F1, you sure do seem to prefer it when other people shut up about F1

I can’t believe you’re actually a marshal, and think what Max, KMags, Hulkenberg, and company did was ok. Did you even watch the replay, or look at he photos I posted?

Please Jim, please explain to me why Hulkenberg and KMags needed to cut the circuit the way they did. What accident were they avoiding???

“Some circuits are different than others”....good observation!!! Did you also know that on most circuits that have a design element like T1, they use foam blocks or cones to prevent drivers from taking short cuts, with specific “re-entry” points. Mexico, Canada, Russia, etc, all have this. Not Paul Richard though.

And in fact, PR does have specific rejoin lanes, but no one uses them.

So Jim, you, our “local marshal”, thinks it’s ok for circuit organizers to fail to put up obstacles that prevent shortcuts, you think it’s ok for organizers to not brief drivers on how to properly re enter the circuit, and you think it’s ok for drivers to rejoin the circuit at full throttle (Silverstone ‘14 anyone?). You go on and on about how great paved runoff is, it you have no qualms about drivers using and abusing the runoff for purposes other than what it is intended for - that is, security for cars that are having an incident, not a “secondary option to the race course if you don’t feel like using the race track.”

I’ll get over it when event organizers and marshals like you step your game up.

 

[adb]

For someone who likes talking about F1, you sure do seem to prefer it when other people shut up about F1

I can’t believe you’re actually a marshal, and think what Max, KMags, Hulkenberg, and company did was ok. Did you even watch the replay, or look at he photos I posted?

Please Jim, please explain to me why Hulkenberg and KMags needed to cut the circuit the way they did. What accident were they avoiding???

“Some circuits are different than others”....good observation!!! Did you also know that on most circuits that have a design element like T1, they use foam blocks or cones to prevent drivers from taking short cuts, with specific “re-entry” points. Mexico, Canada, Russia, etc, all have this. Not Paul Richard though.

And in fact, PR does have specific rejoin lanes, but no one uses them.

So Jim, you, our “local marshal”, thinks it’s ok for circuit organizers to fail to put up obstacles that prevent shortcuts, you think it’s ok for organizers to not brief drivers on how to properly re enter the circuit, and you think it’s ok for drivers to rejoin the circuit at full throttle (Silverstone ‘14 anyone?). You go on and on about how great paved runoff is, it you have no qualms about drivers using and abusing the runoff for purposes other than what it is intended for - that is, security for cars that are having an incident, not a “secondary option to the race course if you don’t feel like using the race track.”

I’ll get over it when event organizers and marshals like you step your game up.

It's a new track, lots of run off, something like this had to happen. Especially under FIA, which somehow can never predict what might happen, they only ever react after something goes down. I'm sure next year there will be a re-enter procedure like in Barcelona, Montreal and Mexico. As of now, I wouldn't blame drivers unless they gain positions.

 

[twitcher]

It's a new track, lots of run off, something like this had to happen. Especially under FIA, which somehow can never predict what might happen, they only ever react after something goes down. I'm sure next year there will be a re-enter procedure like in Barcelona, Montreal and Mexico. As of now, I wouldn't blame drivers unless they gain positions.

For one I’m not really blaming the drivers, they did exactly as the rules say. It’s the rules that are slack. Like I said, if I was Max, that was my game plan all along.

I agree too that the FIA only react...how no one saw this coming is a mystery.

As far as places being made up, KMag definitely made up places. He went into T1 in P8 left the circuit for no reason, rejoined the track P3, then dropped behind Sainz and Ricciardo to P5, ahead of LeClerc and Raikkonen, both of whom stayed on the circut. No investigation, not even a mention.

I’d have to go back and check again to see how the order around Hulkenberg, Grosjean, Perez, etc shuffled down in T4, but I’m quite certain Hulk gained a few places there.

 

[baldgye]

As far as places being made up, KMag definitely made up places. He went into T1 in P8 left the circuit for no reason, rejoined the track P3, then dropped behind Sainz and Ricciardo to P5, ahead of LeClerc and Raikkonen, both of whom stayed on the circut. No investigation, not even a mention.

I don't think he did and he was very fair about how many positions he gave back (that isn't my thread but it's as good an explanation as I've seen).

 

[twitcher]

I don't think he did and he was very fair about how many positions he gave back (that isn't my thread but it's as good an explanation as I've seen).

C’mon....watch the replays, look at the photos I took. KMag was a country mile behind Vettel and Bottas. He jinked right for zero reason, there was nothing in front of him. How did LeClerc, ahead of Mags, make the corner, but Mags didn’t??

He overtook Kimi at the very least by going off the circuit. The excuse of “he couldn’t give the place back because Kimi was behind Leclerc” is nonsense. Watch any other series where drivers redress situations on track, if the guy you need to give a position back to is 10 spots back, then you drop back 11. You don’t get to do some “net calculation” of plus and minus who overtook who.


Silverstone 2014 (Kimi), Austria 2016 (Lewis, after Nico forced him off), KMag earlier this year in Bahrain....mark my words, the use of the paved runoff as part of the race circuit, with drivers readily using it as a primary option and rejoining the circuit at full throttle will end up causing a major problem. Either someone is going to cause a major accident, or a race win/championship will be decided by this kind of nonsense. Then and only then, in hindsight, will people get all up in arms, proclaiming something needs to be done. And I’ll be sitting here like, “oh come on guys, get over it already”