2019 Virgin Australia Supercars ChampionshipTouring Cars

[05XR8]

For sure, especially if one started from the back.

I just hope they've got something sorted for the reduced downforce off season parity adjustments. If they use what the cars are running now as a starting point I fear the Mustangs will be getting a raw deal.

I think Fabs will feel the brunt of that reduced downforce.

 

[Pete05]

John Bowe suggested on Facebook, that to achieve the reduced downforce, Supercars should just delete the front undertrays forcing the teams to trim/lay down the rear wings in order to make the setup of the car balanced.

I have no idea how much that would reduce downforce by as a percentage value.

I wouldn't be sorry to see the wings virtually disappear altogether. Maybe let them run a simple blade type rear wing similar to NASCAR & a greatly reduced front splitter.

 

[ShiftingGears]

They should get rid of the wings completely. It's safer as it reduces cornering speeds and increases overtaking opportunities.

 

[05XR8]

https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/11/12/supercars-to-consult-fans-to-help-develop-gen3/

Easy fix


and

 

[FPV MIC]

Or move to TA2 style, but personally I'd prefer if they went back to the FGX and VFII cars... ain't gonna happen but I can dream. At least they were Aussie made cars.

One thing I worry about is what's going to happen to Super 2. Do they have a plan to also adjust these cars? Have they even thought about the possibility that S2 could be faster than the main game? Even if it's on par it won't be a good look.

And what of the transition from S2 to the main game? It will surely be harder.... but I think some of the young blokes may cope better than some of the older drivers who are used to the higher downforce. As @05XR8 mentioned, DC will probably be one that struggles. Young Anton on the other hand showed what he could do at Phillip Island when he flattened the rear wing to make the car 'pointy', just like Scotty did the previous year.

Interesting times ahead.... but after this season my confidence is very, very low in the whole Supercars organisation.

Spoiler: Edit: Getting fans involved in developing Gen 3

 

[LumpiestFish]

Ryan Walkinshaw did an Instagram Q&A yesterday and was asked about if we’ll ever see the Camaro being raced, which he answered with a no. He did say they in talks with a certain manufacturer for 2021, with the interest coming from the Manufacturer, but didn’t give any answers as to who.

 

[Pete05]

Ryan Walkinshaw did an Instagram Q&A yesterday and was asked about if we’ll ever see the Camaro being raced, which he answered with a no. He did say they in talks with a certain manufacturer for 2021, with the interest coming from the Manufacturer, but didn’t give any answers as to who.

Is it solely up to him or are other people allowed to entertain the idea?

I thought that decision rested with Chevrolet.
After all, it’s their badge on the grille.

 

[05XR8]

Or move to TA2 style, but personally I'd prefer if they went back to the FGX and VFII cars... ain't gonna happen but I can dream. At least they were Aussie made cars.

View attachment 865137

One thing I worry about is what's going to happen to Super 2. Do they have a plan to also adjust these cars? Have they even thought about the possibility that S2 could be faster than the main game? Even if it's on par it won't be a good look.

And what of the transition from S2 to the main game? It will surely be harder.... but I think some of the young blokes may cope better than some of the older drivers who are used to the higher downforce. As @05XR8 mentioned, DC will probably be one that struggles. Young Anton on the other hand showed what he could do at Phillip Island when he flattened the rear wing to make the car 'pointy', just like Scotty did the previous year.

Interesting times ahead.... but after this season my confidence is very, very low in the whole Supercars organisation.

Spoiler: Edit: Getting fans involved in developing Gen 3

View attachment 865151

Yeah, Seamer mentioning market relevance. Fans wants to hear V8s. The daggone MARC Cars were the solution years ago. People drive Mazda3s, Focus, Corolla, Camry, Hyundais, 3 series BMWs. Just use the Coyote V8. TA2 all use an LS engine. I guess it makes too much sense.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Or move to TA2 style

I'd prefer not.

I'd rather they take the current engines and plop them into GT4 spec Mustang's and Camaro's and go at it.

 

[Spacegoat]

He did say they in talks with a certain manufacturer for 2021, with the interest coming from the Manufacturer, but didn’t give any answers as to who.

Saw a Tweet on the weekend that mentioned BMW. Could be just fan speculation though.

Promising that Ryan is saying that there's manufacturer interest but the new gen regs are due in 2022? Hard to imagine going through all the trouble of developing a whole new car, only for it to be out dated after one season.

 

[FPV MIC]

I'd prefer not.

I'd rather they take the current engines and plop them into GT4 spec Mustang's and Camaro's and go at it.

You could buy two (maybe even three) TA2 style cars for the same kind of money. You can even buy one for less than just the price of a current supercar engine alone.

Gen 3 is supposed to be all about cost cutting, and with the engines being the most expensive part to buy and maintain that scenario kind of defeats the purpose. Wouldn't it be better to just run them in Gt 4 spec than to modify an already purpose built race car?

About TA2 prices (as of Sept. 2018):

“These cars are landed in Australia for about $130,000 fully turn-key, ready to race and cost less than $2000 per round to run, which is outstanding value for a racing package of this calibre.

“Engines can last up to four seasons, tyres are only $250 each, and you would be hard pressed to wear out a set of pads or rotors in a season.”

Source: http://ta2racingaustralia.com/25th-car-sold-for-ta2-muscle-car-series/

Now that's some serious money saving! They're so affordable we already have 40 of them here now! And as I mentioned TA2 style. They don't have to be exactly the same. Maybe even using LS and Coyote crate engines. Just something similar that's far more affordable and economical to maintain.

Source: http://ta2racingaustralia.com/40th-car-arrives-for-ta2-muscle-car-series/

 

[CodeRedR51]

And as I mentioned TA2 style.

I just don't like the way they look. Borderline NASCAR and I stopped watching NASCAR for that and many other reasons.

 

[FPV MIC]

I just don't like the way they look. Borderline NASCAR and I stopped watching NASCAR for that and many other reasons.

Just change the wheels and make the doors open and it will look closer to GT 4 than NASCAR. It will also look more like a Mustang than what we run now.

 

[Pete05]

Wouldn't it be better to just run them in Gt 4 spec than to modify an already purpose built race car?

I'd vote for this endlessly before I could the TA2 or MARC cars. But I see problems.

To suggest to the fans that a car 20-25 seconds a lap slower at Bathurst than the current cars, is worthy as main category, would fail. It just wouldn't pass the pub test.

It also opens a can of worms in regards to the other cars in the GT4 category. Why can't they run too? It would be hard to deny if a Manufacturer or Australian distributor wanted to get on board for some market leverage. Factory teams?

One benefit I can see is, it would help make the Bathurst 12hr exclusive to GT3 & GT4 but would that mean the end of 'Supercar' drivers in outright GT3 cars?

I've watched several TA2 races simply because the fields had driver(s) that I follow. Some championships allow adjustable Traction Control, some don't & watching the on-board with flappy-paddle gear changes doesn't tick the box for me.

 

[FPV MIC]

I'd vote for this endlessly before I could the TA2 or MARC cars. But I see problems.

To suggest to the fans that a car 20-25 seconds a lap slower at Bathurst than the current cars, is worthy as main category, would fail. It just wouldn't pass the pub test.

It also opens a can of worms in regards to the other cars in the GT4 category. Why can't they run too? It would be hard to deny if a Manufacturer or Australian distributor wanted to get on board for some market leverage. Factory teams?

One benefit I can see is, it would help make the Bathurst 12hr exclusive to GT3 & GT4 but would that mean the end of 'Supercar' drivers in outright GT3 cars?

I've watched several TA2 races simply because the fields had driver(s) that I follow. Some championships allow adjustable Traction Control, some don't & watching the on-board with flappy-paddle gear changes doesn't tick the box for me.

You've missed my point by just snipping that part. The paragraph was meant to be taken as a whole, and that part was just questioning whether it would be better to run stock than to run a more expensive modified version, especially when money saving is the endgame of Gen 3 . No way would I seriously entertain swapping to Gt 4, or GT 3 for that matter... and neither would Supercars, they would want to keep running their own intellectual property in some form.

I too, have concerns over speed.... no matter what they do. I already mentioned this and I think it's quite relevant, especially to the pub test:

One thing I worry about is what's going to happen to Super 2. Do they have a plan to also adjust these cars? Have they even thought about the possibility that S2 could be faster than the main game? Even if it's on par it won't be a good look.

It also seems you're fixating on the 'TA2' part and not the 'style' part at the end (that I even bolded) like @R1600Turbo. What I'm suggesting doesn't even have to run the same chassis as TA2, and it probably wouldn't. It would be more like Paul Morris's design thoughts on E & the D. The chassis/cage would be engineered and built for everyone by one company, Pace Engineering for example. Crate engines could be supplied by another. The body work, or at the very least the aero, would have to be Supercars intellectual property. It would be more like purchasing a kit car, but the parts would be bought directly from Supercars, and this would keep the price down by Supercars ability to bulk buy.

It's more of the design, build and control process that I was relating to TA2. I probably could have been clearer on that.

Oh and about the flappy paddle gearboxes, don't both GT 3 and GT 4 run those? Supercars is already looking at adding auto blip and have been looking at paddle shifts since the T8 Sandman ran them. And wouldn't they be more relevant these days than anything else? Two of my three cars have them... and ones a CVT . Don't get me wrong, I still prefer H pattern like the good 'ol days to what we have now. But when it comes to market relevance, which is one of Gen 3's main aims, paddle shifters and auto blip will probably win out.

 

[Pete05]

You've missed my point by just snipping that part. The paragraph was meant to be taken as a whole, and that part was just questioning whether it would be better to run stock than to run a more expensive modified version, especially when money saving is the endgame of Gen 3 . No way would I seriously entertain swapping to Gt 4, or GT 3 for that matter... and neither would Supercars, they would want to keep running their own intellectual property in some form.

I too, have concerns over speed.... no matter what they do. I already mentioned this and I think it's quite relevant, especially to the pub test:


It also seems you're fixating on the 'TA2' part and not the 'style' part at the end (that I even bolded) like @R1600Turbo. What I'm suggesting doesn't even have to run the same chassis as TA2, and it probably wouldn't. It would be more like Paul Morris's design thoughts on E & the D. The chassis/cage would be engineered and built for everyone by one company, Pace Engineering for example. Crate engines could be supplied by another. The body work, or at the very least the aero, would have to be Supercars intellectual property. It would be more like purchasing a kit car, but the parts would be bought directly from Supercars, and this would keep the price down by Supercars ability to bulk buy.

It's more of the design, build and control process that I was relating to TA2. I probably could have been clearer on that.

Oh and about the flappy paddle gearboxes, don't both GT 3 and GT 4 run those? Supercars is already looking at adding auto blip and have been looking at paddle shifts since the T8 Sandman ran them. And wouldn't they be more relevant these days than anything else? Two of my three cars have them... and ones a CVT . Don't get me wrong, I still prefer H pattern like the good 'ol days to what we have now. But when it comes to market relevance, which is one of Gen 3's main aims, paddle shifters and auto blip will probably win out.

Oh I got your quite clearly. I just snipped own to what I’d vote for.

Modifying a GT4 defeats the purpose of going down that road in the first place, as it does with any other existing category.
To me it’s buy cars as is & run them or, go down the road of pioneering a domestic class & hoping that Supercars have leaned their expensive lessons from Gen2.

It doesn’t matter to me how relevant it is to the market. Any move towards flappy paddles, auto-blip or hybrid voodoo will have me watching something else.
I hate that crap because it simplifies the skill required to drive & race a car.
It’s halfway to ABS, Traction Control & full auto transmissions.
Throw in control suspension, paritised engines & no one will pass anyone ever again.

 

[FPV MIC]

Oh I got your quite clearly. I just snipped own to what I’d vote for.

Modifying a GT4 defeats the purpose of going down that road in the first place, as it does with any other existing category.

That's exactly what I said, and mentioned a TA2 STYLE car. Not modifying an existing one, I meant building one.

To me it’s buy cars as is & run them or, go down the road of pioneering a domestic class & hoping that Supercars have leaned their expensive lessons from Gen2.

Buying cars and running them as is? Like production cars? It probably costs more to put an HSV Clubsport production spec race car on the track than a TA2 car.

Gen 3 is supposed to be a cost cutting exercise which is exactly what my thoughts were. Much the same way as Marc Cars and TA2 cars have been developed, it would be very easy to build a new, cheaper version of what we have now if it were kept to minimal different manufacturers for those parts instead of everyone doing their own thing. Just drop your body of choice over it and away you go.

It doesn’t matter to me how relevant it is to the market. Any move towards flappy paddles, auto-blip or hybrid voodoo will have me watching something else.
I hate that crap because it simplifies the skill required to drive & race a car.
It’s halfway to ABS, Traction Control & full auto transmissions.
Throw in control suspension, paritised engines & no one will pass anyone ever again.

I don't understand where you're coming from with this. You'd vote for Gt 4, but doesn't GT 4 already have everything, except hybrid, that you don't like?

And yeah, I'm not fond of any hybrid form of Supercars either... and as I said, my personal preference would be going back to the FGX and VFII... but it ain't gonna happen, so it's make the best of Gen 3 or.....

 

[CodeRedR51]

 

[05XR8]

Can't see why VASC haven't done a joint venture with NZV8. They've been running Camrys and Altimas for the longest.

Haven't heard much about the lastest Big Three coupes being developed, but they're on the right track. I'm sure cars in NZV8s are less expensive than VASCs.

 

[Pete05]

That's exactly what I said, and mentioned a TA2 STYLE car. Not modifying an existing one, I meant building one.
Buying cars and running them as is? Like production cars? It probably costs more to put an HSV Clubsport production spec race car on the track than a TA2 car.

Gen 3 is supposed to be a cost cutting exercise which is exactly what my thoughts were. Much the same way as Marc Cars and TA2 cars have been developed, it would be very easy to build a new, cheaper version of what we have now if it were kept to minimal different manufacturers for those parts instead of everyone doing their own thing. Just drop your body of choice over it and away you go.

I don't understand where you're coming from with this. You'd vote for Gt 4, but doesn't GT 4 already have everything, except hybrid, that you don't like?

And yeah, I'm not fond of any hybrid form of Supercars either... and as I said, my personal preference would be going back to the FGX and VFII... but it ain't gonna happen, so it's make the best of Gen 3 or.....

There are two classes I’d like to see make a modern day comeback.

Series Production as they ran at Bathurst until the introduction of Group C in 1973.

A modernised, well thought out Group A.

The current Production Cars they run in the Bathurst 6hr are way too modified & that’s why we end up with a $400k BMW M4.
Mods purely for safety should be the only mods allowed. That’s what a race ready Prod Car is.

Group A (the original version) taught the rule makers exactly where the holes were in the rule book. Cover those & you get different brands, makes & models all in with a chance at either outright victory or a class win.
For me, the first two and half years of Group A were great racing to watch.

You mentioned in a previous post the Ingall/Morris discussion about how to cut costs.
They are at the coal face & have been as deep into the category as you can go.
They should be the ones writing the rule book.

The bit about driving aids in GT4 is forgivable for the same reason I liked watching Le Mans.
In the GT4 case, they already had them at category inception.
I’m not a fan of any category going down that road & calling it progress.
Same reason I wouldn’t be happy if TCM went to sequential shifter from H-pattern.

 

[FPV MIC]

There are two classes I’d like to see make a modern day comeback.

Series Production as they ran at Bathurst until the introduction of Group C in 1973.

A modernised, well thought out Group A.

The current Production Cars they run in the Bathurst 6hr are way too modified & that’s why we end up with a $400k BMW M4.
Mods purely for safety should be the only mods allowed. That’s what a race ready Prod Car is.

Group A (the original version) taught the rule makers exactly where the holes were in the rule book. Cover those & you get different brands, makes & models all in with a chance at either outright victory or a class win.
For me, the first two and half years of Group A were great racing to watch.

You mentioned in a previous post the Ingall/Morris discussion about how to cut costs.
They are at the coal face & have been as deep into the category as you can go.
They should be the ones writing the rule book.

The bit about driving aids in GT4 is forgivable for the same reason I liked watching Le Mans.
In the GT4 case, they already had them at category inception.
I’m not a fan of any category going down that road & calling it progress.
Same reason I wouldn’t be happy if TCM went to sequential shifter from H-pattern.

Neither of those would pass the pub test for replacing Supercars as our main series these days.... not even close .

Can't see why VASC haven't done a joint venture with NZV8. They've been running Camrys and Altimas for the longest.

It would be great in theory but I don't think the NZV8's would want ''big brother'' coming in and trying to take over, cause I'm pretty sure Supercars would want control.

Haven't heard much about the lastest Big Three coupes being developed, but they're on the right track. I'm sure cars in NZV8s are less expensive than VASCs.

On the right track for sure 👍. The price for their new cars is very reasonable compared to a Supercar, and it seems they've gone a similar route to what I was suggesting.

Estimated Cost $230,000 AUD excl GST, ex Pace Innovations Yatala, QLD, Australia

The full specs are in this article: https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/06/13/bnt-v8s-reveals-technical-details-of-new-generation-cars/

 

[05XR8]

There are two classes I’d like to see make a modern day comeback.

Series Production as they ran at Bathurst until the introduction of Group C in 1973.

A modernised, well thought out Group A.

The current Production Cars they run in the Bathurst 6hr are way too modified & that’s why we end up with a $400k BMW M4.
Mods purely for safety should be the only mods allowed. That’s what a race ready Prod Car is.

Group A (the original version) taught the rule makers exactly where the holes were in the rule book. Cover those & you get different brands, makes & models all in with a chance at either outright victory or a class win.
For me, the first two and half years of Group A were great racing to watch.

You mentioned in a previous post the Ingall/Morris discussion about how to cut costs.
They are at the coal face & have been as deep into the category as you can go.
They should be the ones writing the rule book.

The bit about driving aids in GT4 is forgivable for the same reason I liked watching Le Mans.
In the GT4 case, they already had them at category inception.
I’m not a fan of any category going down that road & calling it progress.
Same reason I wouldn’t be happy if TCM went to sequential shifter from H-pattern.

GT4 were even at Production car levels of spec. The GT4 Mustang GT and GT4 C6 didn't even have rear wings.

Anyway, I think the pic below, should have been the time the series made sure all teams were treated fairly. It really should have been paramount to make sure AMG Australia backed Erebus. V8SC should have made sure NISMO got all the help it needed. V8SC should(that dang word again) have done what Super GT do to ensure all manufacturers play together and have a chance to win.

I do hope the series can shake the Holden vs Ford image. Meaning, the V8 era mainly caters to Fords and Holdens.

 

[Pete05]

Neither of those would pass the pub test for replacing Supercars as our main series these days.... not even close .

It would be great in theory but I don't think the NZV8's would want ''big brother'' coming in and trying to take over, cause I'm pretty sure Supercars would want control.

On the right track for sure 👍. The price for their new cars is very reasonable compared to a Supercar, and it seems they've gone a similar route to what I was suggesting.
The full specs are in this article: https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/06/13/bnt-v8s-reveals-technical-details-of-new-generation-cars/

I know I was the one that brought up the pub test, but I get the feeling that nothing would pass the pub test unless it had a V8 and a Ford/Holden badge. You only have to look at the content of the Speedcafe forum to know it's mostly scraping the bottom of the barrel mentality/appeal.
That must be what Speedcafe want though. I made a similar comment yesterday morning about Supercars seeking a Fan Council & the comment was removed. Thin-skinned much? That's me done over there. I'll read the stories but their forum no longer exists.

GT4 were even at Production car levels of spec. The GT4 Mustang GT and GT4 C6 didn't even have rear wings.
View attachment 865489

Anyway, I think the pic below, should have been the time the series made sure all teams were treated fairly. It really should have been paramount to make sure AMG Australia backed Erebus. V8SC should have made sure NISMO got all the help it needed. V8SC should(that dang word again) have done what Super GT do to ensure all manufacturers play together and have a chance to win.
View attachment 865490

I do hope the series can shake the Holden vs Ford image. Meaning, the V8 era mainly caters to Fords and Holdens.

Correct. I've seen detailed pics of GT4 cars & they are very 'production', turn-key packages.

Compare a GT4 versus a Bathurst 6hr spec Prod Car at Mount Panorama and the lap times tell the truth.

 

[05XR8]

Funny how the ATCC grid was similar to this from the start
http://www.thenationals.com.au/live/

 

[Pete05]

Funny how the ATCC grid was similar to this from the start
http://www.thenationals.com.au/live/

Variety 👍

 

[Spacegoat]

Amazing to think that by this time next week the last race of the season will have started. The year has really flown by.

 

[05XR8]

Pretty long year. Highlight for me was Albert Park. I'm glad there are two more years here in Newcastle, but a little sad Simona is leaving and the Nissans are retired. Same way when the E63s got parked.

Just hope next year is not so much less controversial, just more transparency by VASC. So the average fan knows what's going on and why, when changes are being made.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I find it kind of funny that the series went through the whole thing about getting more makes in the series, which they did, but now it's back to a strictly Holden vs Ford battle as it has been. We've come full circle.

 

[05XR8]

https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/11/19/bjr-in-recruitment-drive-to-increase-2020-resources/

“I think we’re pretty close. And I’m not 100 percent sure exactly when we’ll announce, but it’s in due course,” Jones told Speedcafe.com, when asked about the team’s 2020 driver line-up.

Maybe Hazelwood?

Team 18 and Matt Stone Racing are both increasing to two cars next year, while the new Sydney team is also working to run two entries in 2020.

I feel Pye would be best at Team 18. For having driver experience and experience with the ZB.

 

[Spacegoat]

Maybe Hazelwood?

Seems like the best fit for him. Just a stab in the dark on how the grid could look.

DJRTP: McLaughlin, Coulthard.
T8: Whincup, SVG.
Erebus: Reynolds, De Pasquale.
BJR: Percat, Jones, Smith, Hazelwood.
WAU: Mostert, Fullwood.
Tickford: Le Brocq, Holdsworth, Waters, Davison.
Team 18: Winterbottom, Pye.
Kelly Racing: Kelly, Heimgartner.
Tekno: Courtney, Stanaway.
MSR: Jacobson, ????