2020 Virgin Australia Supercars ChampionshipTouring Cars

[Spacegoat]

Yeah they need to stick with the changes they made. All weekend the top 10 has been a mix of drivers that are not normally there. Much greater variety and it has given people like Le Brocq the chance to pull out a victory. My advice to VASC, don't change a thing.

Completely agree. And it has to be good for the sponsors, with a large variety of the cars getting good TV exposure, rather than just the usual suspects.

 

[05XR8]

I've stayed away for the exact reasons as the posts above(plus when I read Giz and Scott said they couldn't follow cars when the season resumed). Cancelled my Fox Sports channels. Just skimmed the YouTube highlights and that's enough for me.

I was definitely surprised to see Lebrocq's photo on the news. I thought Heingartner was going to win from pole. I haven't read into anything else about what's going on, but if there are different results each race and fans are happy, that's a start to improve the series.

 

[FPV MIC]

I haven't read into anything else about what's going on, but if there are different results each race and fans are happy, that's a start to improve the series.

Some fans are happy, but ''race'' fans are not.


I know Speedcafe comments can be pretty toxic at times but reading the ones trailing this article will give you a good idea on fans thoughts. https://www.speedcafe.com/2020/07/20/poll-are-supercars-new-tyre-challenges-better-for-racing/

It's probably the ideal season to try out some different ideas though.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Some fans are happy, but ''race'' fans are not.


I know Speedcafe comments can be pretty toxic at times but reading the ones trailing this article will give you a good idea on fans thoughts. https://www.speedcafe.com/2020/07/20/poll-are-supercars-new-tyre-challenges-better-for-racing/

It's probably the ideal season to try out some different ideas though.

Fans will always be upset if their favorite driver isn't the one winning.

 

[FPV MIC]

Fans will always be upset if their favorite driver isn't the one winning.

I support a brand . I like drivers from both sides of the fence and many of them aren't in the top teams so they'd have more chance of winning under the most recent format. I'd just prefer to see them win on merit, not because two thirds of the field is wobbling around like shot ducks.

... and there's fans and then there's race fans.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Again, everyone starts the weekend with the same number of tires and the same chance to prove themselves. I'm sure it'll take the big dogs a few races to get the hang of it and we'll be right back where we started, DJRTP and Red Bull filling the podium every weekend.

 

[FPV MIC]

Again, everyone starts the weekend with the same number of tires and the same chance to prove themselves. I'm sure it'll take the big dogs a few races to get the hang of it and we'll be right back where we started, DJRTP and Red Bull filling the podium every weekend.

The big dogs were already fighting for the round win, there just aren't round winners any more... and it's impossible to be on the podium for all three races no matter what team you're in (Ludo had pencilled in 1st, 3rd and 8th as being about the best they could do).

The overall points for the round were won by Scott McLaughlin, then Nick Percat, Fabian Coulthard, SVG and fifth was Chaz Mostert... not that anyone (except the true race fans) would even know SVG and Chaz had high scoring weekends. SVG didn't even have a podium and was still fourth.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, if they acknowledged the podium for the round rather than just race wins it would go along way to swaying me towards this style of event. They'd also have to do something about qualifying. Chris Pither running softs to get into the top 15 and then hards in the shootout... pffft, ridiculous.

 

[noshog]

I haven't even watched all the races from the weekend yet, but obviously know all the results.... I must admit I don't really get the complaints ? Saying there are 'fans' and then there are 'race fans'... I would consider myself a race fan, for me that means Racing is... battling for position, strategy, and just general good track action... Is that not what we got ?

Saying its fake manufactured racing is a bit rubbish to me... Fake racing is success ballast, fan boost and DRS (although I have gotten used to the DRS thing now in F1... it is a kind of necessary evil). What we had was a tyre allocation that everybody had to deal with, for me you cant complain when some used it to their advantage, they may not get it again so you have to make hay while the sun shines .

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I’ll say that last weekend’s event was entertaining but, it was a step too far away from pure racing for me. Tyre strategy became too much like a lottery, to the point where it’s confusing to work out who’s doing what and I’m certainly no casual fan.

I think that there was a good balance at the first weekend at SMP, but adding in a third race kind of threw it all out the window.

While I’m at it, I’m not much of a fan of a Top 15 shootout. It’s just too drawn out and feels like the powers that be are trying to kill as much time as possible, but given the lack of support races it’s kind of a necessary evil to keep viewers engaged.

The race formats themselves are perfect, though. Not too short that there’s no strategy involved and not too long that your mind starts to wander.

All up, I think there’s a lot of positives and negatives to take out of the current situation and hopefully come next season we’ll have some stellar race formats and hopefully fair, balanced racing too.

 

[05XR8]

I haven't even watched all the races from the weekend yet, but obviously know all the results.... I must admit I don't really get the complaints ? Saying there are 'fans' and then there are 'race fans'... I would consider myself a race fan, for me that means Racing is... battling for position, strategy, and just general good track action... Is that not what we got ?

Saying its fake manufactured racing is a bit rubbish to me... Fake racing is success ballast, fan boost and DRS (although I have gotten used to the DRS thing now in F1... it is a kind of necessary evil). What we had was a tyre allocation that everybody had to deal with, for me you cant complain when some used it to their advantage, they may not get it again so you have to make hay while the sun shines .

Yep. Let it rain and see what happens when Erebus and the rest of the field can't catch RBHRT & DJR.

 

[FPV MIC]

I haven't even watched all the races from the weekend yet, but obviously know all the results.... I must admit I don't really get the complaints ? Saying there are 'fans' and then there are 'race fans'... I would consider myself a race fan, for me that means Racing is... battling for position, strategy, and just general good track action... Is that not what we got ?

Saying its fake manufactured racing is a bit rubbish to me... Fake racing is success ballast, fan boost and DRS (although I have gotten used to the DRS thing now in F1... it is a kind of necessary evil). What we had was a tyre allocation that everybody had to deal with, for me you cant complain when some used it to their advantage, they may not get it again so you have to make hay while the sun shines .

'Fans' just like watching the races without caring too much how a win came about (success ballast, fan boost, DRS, or manipulated tyre economy), while 'race fans' like to see who wins when everyone's on an even footing... you know, a proper race.

... and there was strategy, battling for position, and general good track action in the previous round. There were also still different outcomes but you only had to throw one race to achieve a result, not throw two like in this round.

The fake racing term came from Barry Ryan. This is some of what he said...

“Supercars have done a great job with this whole COVID situation but the tyre allocation this weekend is just… I don’t think anybody’s a fan; it’s not real racing.

“We’re racers; if we’re the best, we want to be able to be able to win.

“You shouldn’t just be able to get a result because you played the ball or just do something different to everyone else. It’s not racing and it’s not exciting.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2020/07/19/ryan-slams-fake-racing-tyre-format/

I agree wholeheartedly with the bit I highlighted.

No disrespect to Zane Goddard as a driver, but in what world would he and his teams car be able to lap faster (1:31.9531*) than SML (1:33.2283*), SVG ( 1:33.8527*), ADP (1:33.1614*) and JW (1:32.0071*) in a race that was a fair fight. Oh that's right, one where he finished dead last in the two previous races.

Source for the times: http://racing.natsoft.com.au/639110908/object_106743.83o/Times?16

 

[noshog]

'Fans' just like watching the races without caring too much how a win came about (success ballast, fan boost, DRS, or manipulated tyre economy), while 'race fans' like to see who wins when everyone's on an even footing... you know, a proper race.

... and there was strategy, battling for position, and general good track action in the previous round. There were also still different outcomes but you only had to throw one race to achieve a result, not throw two like in this round.

The fake racing term came from Barry Ryan. This is some of what he said...

“Supercars have done a great job with this whole COVID situation but the tyre allocation this weekend is just… I don’t think anybody’s a fan; it’s not real racing.

“We’re racers; if we’re the best, we want to be able to be able to win.

“You shouldn’t just be able to get a result because you played the ball or just do something different to everyone else. It’s not racing and it’s not exciting.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2020/07/19/ryan-slams-fake-racing-tyre-format/

I agree wholeheartedly with the bit I highlighted...

Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying it was perfect, but it's also far from the travesty some are making it out to be (I'm not pointing fingers at you directly).

Sorry I dont how to do that thing where I can break down and quote section by section... So bear with me please...

... while 'race fans' like to see who wins when everyone's on an even footing... Again this doesn't make sense to me, everyone had the exact same tyre allocation... Is that not even footing ? It's not like BJR had all soft tyres and Red Bull had all hard tyres all weekend... Everyone had the exact same to deal with.

And in regards the Barry Ryan bit... I'm going to guess that you have been around long enough not to buy into everything a team manager says ? (I do actually like Barry Ryan) ... But come on, every team manager will put a spin on it claiming its for the fans etc... But in reality they always want whats best for their team ! 'I don’t think anybody’s a fan' ... How about you ask fans of Team Sydney or BJR ?
“We’re racers; if we’re the best, we want to be able to be able to win. ...Again, come on... What does everyone say when other 'lesser' teams cant get a good result... Get better, try harder, do a better job... Now that a few of the big guns haven't been able to get a top result at one round we get a ... but, but we are the best we deserve to win, its not right, its not fair ??
As others have said here, the big guns will figure out a way to be back at the top again, then we will be back to status quo that everyone seemed to love ??

 

[CodeRedR51]

I’m not much of a fan of a Top 15 shootout.

Yeah that needs to stay top 10.

Chris Pither running softs to get into the top 15 and then hards in the shootout... pffft, ridiculous.

I agree with Scotty that for the Top 10 Shootout they should give everyone a new set of tires.

 

[ScottPuss20]

'Fans' just like watching the races without caring too much how a win came about (success ballast, fan boost, DRS, or manipulated tyre economy), while 'race fans' like to see who wins when everyone's on an even footing... you know, a proper race.

... and there was strategy, battling for position, and general good track action in the previous round. There were also still different outcomes but you only had to throw one race to achieve a result, not throw two like in this round.

The fake racing term came from Barry Ryan. This is some of what he said...

“Supercars have done a great job with this whole COVID situation but the tyre allocation this weekend is just… I don’t think anybody’s a fan; it’s not real racing.

“We’re racers; if we’re the best, we want to be able to be able to win.

“You shouldn’t just be able to get a result because you played the ball or just do something different to everyone else. It’s not racing and it’s not exciting.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2020/07/19/ryan-slams-fake-racing-tyre-format/

I agree wholeheartedly with the bit I highlighted.

No disrespect to Zane Goddard as a driver, but in what world would he and his teams car be able to lap faster (1:31.9531*) than SML (1:33.2283*), SVG ( 1:33.8527*), ADP (1:33.1614*) and JW (1:32.0071*) in a race that was a fair fight. Oh that's right, one where he finished dead last in the two previous races.

Source for the times: http://racing.natsoft.com.au/639110908/object_106743.83o/Times?16

Hang on, playing the ball is very much part of racing. How the strategy plays out has got nothing to do with luck. If you really are the best, you can choose the optimum strategy and win the round. Those who went for broke in one race found themselves way down the order in the other 2 - that is a strategic choice, not a random result. Everyone had the same amount of tyres and each team used them in a different way. If you look at the results on the whole, you won't find anyone who gained an unfair advantage or cheated the system. The best drivers were at the top of the table after everything was said and done. Remember, it's not about winning the battle, but winning the war. Those who win the war will find themselves victorious, even if they aren't at the forefront of each individual battle. I think that's better to be honest.

 

[FPV MIC]

Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying it was perfect, but it's also far from the travesty some are making it out to be (I'm not pointing fingers at you directly).

Sorry I dont how to do that thing where I can break down and quote section by section... So bear with me please...

I'm not saying it was a travesty either and have already mentioned that I think this season is probably the ideal one to try different things.

... while 'race fans' like to see who wins when everyone's on an even footing... Again this doesn't make sense to me, everyone had the exact same tyre allocation... Is that not even footing ? It's not like BJR had all soft tyres and Red Bull had all hard tyres all weekend... Everyone had the exact same to deal with.

They're only on an even footing if you take into account all three races, which they don't. As I've previously mentioned they need to have a podium for the accumulative points results of all three races put together for it to be even. That is probably my main gripe... along with the qualifying format. What Pither's (and maybe Hazelwood's???) team did on Saturday was a joke. I don't have the answer of how to fix that particular situation while running this format yet but I am still thinking about it. Maybe something like having to run what you used to get in to the shootout?

And in regards the Barry Ryan bit... I'm going to guess that you have been around long enough not to buy into everything a team manager says ? (I do actually like Barry Ryan) ... But come on, every team manager will put a spin on it claiming its for the fans etc... But in reality they always want whats best for their team ! 'I don’t think anybody’s a fan' ... How about you ask fans of Team Sydney or BJR ?
“We’re racers; if we’re the best, we want to be able to be able to win. ...Again, come on... What does everyone say when other 'lesser' teams cant get a good result... Get better, try harder, do a better job... Now that a few of the big guns haven't been able to get a top result at one round we get a ... but, but we are the best we deserve to win, its not right, its not fair ??
As others have said here, the big guns will figure out a way to be back at the top again, then we will be back to status quo that everyone seemed to love ??

The thing is the big teams did do a better job overall, they just didn't get the accolades they deserved for it (again, podium for the overall top three points getters for all three races put together on Sunday... problem solved 👍).

Edit: @CLowndes888 That's the problem, there are no round results, just individual races.

 

[noshog]

Yeah I understand what your saying @FPV MIC 👍.
To be honest, for me I'm just not that worried about celebrating an overall round win, I can see why some care, but at the end of the day its a championship, and really the only thing that matters is who wins at the end of the year.

The top 15 shootout needs to go, I'll agree with that...It's just too much. And yeah, maybe a fresh shoot out only set for everyone, or shootout on your qualy tires.... But it'll end up same ol' anyway when the big guns figure out how to maximize every set of tyres over the weekend.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I’m all for being back overall round wins/positions mainly because going through Kayo afterwards and trying to work out if Race 69 is the first, second or third race of the weekend is a pain in the arse. It was much simpler before they got rid of that format.

 

[Spacegoat]

They should bring back an overall round winner if the commentators are going to keep referring to it throughout the weekend. Seems pointless to do so otherwise.

 

[magic_town]

They should bring back an overall round winner if the commentators are going to keep referring to it throughout the weekend. Seems pointless to do so otherwise.

I agree, they need to do a round podium at the end of the meeting. McLaughlin was clearly the best of the weekend but only managed 1st, 3rd and 14th. Not good for the sponsors. On the other hand though, the tv time for Heimgartner, Percat, Hazelwood and the like was great for their sponsors, and Supercars wouldn’t survive without the mid and lower level teams. Someone has to get the cats on the grid.
I can see the argument from both sides honestly.

Cars on the grid**

 

[FPV MIC]

Yeah I understand what your saying @FPV MIC 👍.
To be honest, for me I'm just not that worried about celebrating an overall round win, I can see why some care, but at the end of the day its a championship, and really the only thing that matters is who wins at the end of the year.

I'm not singling you out here @noshog but as you brought it up I'll put a quick thought on this subject here.

This format also artificially manipulates point weighting towards the championships (Driver, Teams, Manufacturer). The maximum points a driver can score over a weekend are nowhere near the 300 points that it's meant to be. Will it make the championships end differently? Probably not, but it's something that needs to be looked into.

The top 15 shootout needs to go, I'll agree with that...It's just too much. And yeah, maybe a fresh shoot out only set for everyone, or shootout on your qualy tires....

Agreed 👍. That's one thing we're pretty unanimous on here

But it'll end up same ol' anyway when the big guns figure out how to maximize every set of tyres over the weekend.

DJRTP already did.

In fact all of the top five in total points for the weekend were nearly exactly the same as the last round at SMP. The only exception was JDub, who admitted his team made a poor decision and went the wrong way with his car trying to beat SML instead of maximising their own result (the same mistake they made many times last year).

I agree, they need to do a round podium at the end of the meeting. McLaughlin was clearly the best of the weekend but only managed 1st, 3rd and 14th. Not good for the sponsors. On the other hand though, the tv time for Heimgartner, Percat, Hazelwood and the like was great for their sponsors, and Supercars wouldn’t survive without the mid and lower level teams. Someone has to get the cats on the grid.
I can see the argument from both sides honestly.

Cars on the grid**

Spot on 👍. Reinstate rounds so at the end of the weekend the big sponsors are happy too.

 

[noshog]

I'm not singling you out here @noshog but as you brought it up I'll put a quick thought on this subject here.

This format also artificially manipulates point weighting towards the championships (Driver, Teams, Manufacturer). The maximum points a driver can score over a weekend are nowhere near the 300 points that it's meant to be. Will it make the championships end differently? Probably not, but it's something that needs to be looked into.

All good FPV MIC ... Must admit I'm not really too sure what you mean here though ? ... Maybe I'm looking at it too simply... But a championship is a championship ? ....Does it really matter if they dish out 5 points for a race or 1000 ? The teams that can fight for a championship still need to maximize their points every race, every weekend for a whole season to come out on top.

 

[FPV MIC]

All good FPV MIC ... Must admit I'm not really too sure what you mean here though ? ... Maybe I'm looking at it too simply... But a championship is a championship ? ....Does it really matter if they dish out 5 points for a race or 1000 ? The teams that can fight for a championship still need to maximize their points every race, every weekend for a whole season to come out on top.

To put it simply, it can change the points weighting from one round to another.

I'll use the two SMP rounds as an example. Theoretically both weekends had 300 points up for grabs to win, but in reality this isn't the case.

In the first round SML got two firsts and a third, which was about the maximum he could achieve with the tyre allocation they had (286 points total). In the second appearance there he was only able to score a first, third and a fourteenth, also about the best he could do under the different tyre rules (228 total). He came out of both meetings with the best points hall but they are two vastly different amounts in championship land, and there's no way anyone can score the 300 points for a weekend that has been the previous best anyone could score. As a result of this it also makes the championship look artificially closer in points.

Now can you see how two rounds at exactly the same track that are both running three races can be worth different amounts to win? Maybe this is something they're trying to achieve?

I hope I've explained my thoughts on this properly and as I said earlier, I don't know if it will change much but it something that should be investigated.

Also, if they keep this sort of tyre allocation for the shorter races it will put far more weight on winning Bathurst than ever before.... not that I'm particularly against that. The 300 points would be huge for the winner and you certainly wouldn't want to have a DNF.

Edit: I've been thinking about it some more and came to the realisation that race 3 of each weekend was the only difference for SML. Purely theoretical but if SML DNFed in race 3 on one weekend he would have lost 100 points but if it happened at the next round he would only lose 42 points. That just doesn't seem quite right to me.

 

[noshog]

Yeah I understand what you getting at @FPV MIC ... But to me this seems to be a bit of a non issue ? Just places even more importance on maximizing every race, more importance on not making mistakes and keeping your nose clean every time you hit the track.

I dont know... I guess I dont mind the smaller teams having a shot at glory every now and then, because I know the smartest of the bigger teams will have overall glory at the end of the year, which I'm sure is what they really have their eyes on.

 

[FPV MIC]

Yeah I understand what you getting at @FPV MIC ... But to me this seems to be a bit of a non issue ? Just places even more importance on maximizing every race, more importance on not making mistakes and keeping your nose clean every time you hit the track.

I dont know... I guess I dont mind the smaller teams having a shot at glory every now and then, because I know the smartest of the bigger teams will have overall glory at the end of the year, which I'm sure is what they really have their eyes on.

Yeah I get were all you guys are coming from too but with me being an old school type of person that's been around racing since the sixties it just doesn't sit right.

I've seen many, many gimmicks in motorsport in my time. Supercars has tried and failed with quite a few (reverse top ten, reverse grid, closed pit lane under caution just to name a few). They rarely succeed, with top ten shootouts being the most obvious exception, but for the most part they just piss off their core group of loyal fans (looking at you NASCAR... playoffs, competition cautions, stage points.... wtf ). And I did say from the very start I didn't think my opinion would be the popular one here.

I don't know if you guys remember this (2006) and reading what I've quoted here it sounds eerily similar...

Cattach said V8 Supercar supporters had "mixed reactions to the format, with some very positive and others critical".

"What it did do was stimulate a lot of interest and provide some great scenarios each time it was contested," he said. "It certainly did not create the mass carnage that many had predicted."

However, many leading drivers, including Ford's Craig Lowndes, were critical of the system which was tailor-made for accidents and unrepresentative results. The Supercar points system will be adjusted across the three races while retaining the current total of 320.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorsport/supercars-back-up-over-controversial-reverse-grid-20060711-gdnxom.html

Same sort of deal... and it was rightly scrapped.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Yeah I get were all you guys are coming from too but with me being an old school type of person that's been around racing since the sixties it just doesn't sit right.

I've seen many, many gimmicks in motorsport in my time. Supercars has tried and failed with quite a few (reverse top ten, reverse grid, closed pit lane under caution just to name a few). They rarely succeed, with top ten shootouts being the most obvious exception, but for the most part they just piss off their core group of loyal fans (looking at you NASCAR... playoffs, competition cautions, stage points.... wtf ). And I did say from the very start I didn't think my opinion would be the popular one here.

I don't know if you guys remember this (2006) and reading what I've quoted here it sounds eerily similar...

Cattach said V8 Supercar supporters had "mixed reactions to the format, with some very positive and others critical".

"What it did do was stimulate a lot of interest and provide some great scenarios each time it was contested," he said. "It certainly did not create the mass carnage that many had predicted."

However, many leading drivers, including Ford's Craig Lowndes, were critical of the system which was tailor-made for accidents and unrepresentative results. The Supercar points system will be adjusted across the three races while retaining the current total of 320.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorsport/supercars-back-up-over-controversial-reverse-grid-20060711-gdnxom.html

Same sort of deal... and it was rightly scrapped.

But 2006 was one of the craziest championships ever. It was one of the closest and conjured up one of the most unlikely champions in Rick Kelly. He only had one win in the entire season but was consistent enough to be there at the end. Several cars were in with a shot at the championship that year. The last championship where more than 2 cars had a shot was 2010, and yet another unlikely champion was crowned. After seeing years of domination from Red Bull and DJR, I would applaud a shake-up of the format once again.

 

[FPV MIC]

But 2006 was one of the craziest championships ever. It was one of the closest and conjured up one of the most unlikely champions in Rick Kelly. He only had one win in the entire season but was consistent enough to be there at the end. Several cars were in with a shot at the championship that year. The last championship where more than 2 cars had a shot was 2010, and yet another unlikely champion was crowned. After seeing years of domination from Red Bull and DJR, I would applaud a shake-up of the format once again.

I've already given my thoughts on that in my very first post on this subject.

It was good to see different people taking poles and wins but when it's manufactured it doesn't really count in my books. Kind of like Nissans wins when running different fuel to the rest of the field (no performance advantage my arse Mr. Skaife), and Rick Kelly's championship.

And there was also this...



....that was after RK's team boss told him over the radio in words to the effect of The car is disposable, we don't need it for next year so have him off if you have to.

Yeah, great championship

 

[05XR8]

Wasn't it Ingall that never won a race, but won the Championship?

 

[FPV MIC]

Wasn't it Ingall that never won a race, but won the Championship?

Nah, he had two race wins, but only one round win. One round win and one race win more than RK in his championship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_V8_Supercar_Championship_Series

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_V8_Supercar_Championship_Series

 

[ScottPuss20]

I've already given my thoughts on that in my very first post on this subject.



And there was also this...



....that was after RK's team boss told him over the radio in words to the effect of The car is disposable, we don't need it for next year so have him off if you have to.

Yeah, great championship

At least it was entertaining! Look, I don't want to be spending 2 hours of my day watching a procession; I want to see actual racing where people actually have to fight their way to the top. Most of the races last year were pretty boring, apart from Townsville, Albert Park and Bathurst. Supercars is supposed to be a close and competitive championship, but it doesn't always seem that way when you look at the winner's list. Would you rather have so-called "manufactured" racing where you get a wider variety of results, or "normal" racing where the results are more predictable? If you want to watch predictable races where the best always win, watch Formula 1. But you'll probably say that's too boring because there isn't enough "racing" going on. Why should Supercars be the same?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Wasn't it Ingall that never won a race, but won the Championship?

That was also helped out by another gimmick, the round drop.