2021 F1 Driver ThreadFormula 1

[PeterJB]

https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/22/racefans-round-up-22-08-3/

So according to one of the articles in here, Helmut Marko has Saud that Kvyat isn't performing as expected. Call it a conspiracy theory, but this seems like the first hint that there may be movement at Red Bull.

I wouldn't be surprised if Albon gets dumped back at AlphaTauri at the expense of Kvyat (who has now been quoted to be not up to what was expected), and Red Bull put a quick fix of Vettel or Hulkenberg in the second Red Bull to partner Verstappen, either during this season or for next. Red Bull will be too wary of promoting Gasly, despite his upturn of form, after his failure last year put them in this mess in the first place. Call it farfetched, but if it happens, you heard it here first.

Huelkenberg is the most realistic one despite having no formal connections to Red Bull. If Vettel jumped ship mid-season I doubt Sainz would want to move up early with how Ferrari seem to operate, which I guess leaves either Raikkonen or Giovinazzi to take his place, which would then leave a vacant seat at Alfa Romeo, Kubica's their reserve driver so it would probably go to him, unless they want to give Mick Schumacher a go since he's not quite in the F2 title fight this year, or bring Huelkenberg back.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Mick isn't getting that seat. Callum Illot and Robert Schwartzman have looked so much better this season of the Ferrari Academy drivers. They should get the nod first.

 

[PeterJB]

Guess it depends how much Ilott and Shwartzmann value winning the F2 title first.

 

[numbnuts70]

Gasly for the seat in my opinion, Albon could be bombed out completely if he doesn't develop an ability to 'drive through' a less than perfect setup.

 

[Liquid]

The Red Bull second seat merry-go-round is a load of Red Bull:censored:.

 

[Roger the Horse]

Honestly at this point either Red Bull have to show that they're serious about running a two car team and put someone experienced in alongside Verstappen or just admit that they're centring everything around Verstappen and that whoever is in the second seat is doing little more than keeping it warm.

Put Kvyat in the Red Bull and give Albon a proper chance at Toro Rosso.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Honestly at this point either Red Bull have to show that they're serious about running a two car team and put someone experienced in alongside Verstappen or just admit that they're centring everything around Verstappen and that whoever is in the second seat is doing little more than keeping it warm.

Put Kvyat in the Red Bull and give Albon a proper chance at Toro Rosso.

Not sure there's been a comparable situation since Benetton in 1994, quite extraordinary

 

[mustafur]

Redbulls driver program isn't good enough for it's purpose any more.

They are better off just signing an experienced driver for the 2nd seat in their main team like a normal team on the grid.

 

[Frank McGank]

Red Bull has never skipped over their young driver programme for another team’s driver as far as I can remember. The only people thinking Vettel will go to Red Bull are people waxing nostalgic in the hopes of him being competitive like he was in 2009-2013. People are so desperate for a shakeup in the championship order that something like “Vettel win in 2010 RB, why Vettel not able to win in 2020 RB?” seems like a reasonable proposition. It ain’t happening. Vettel isn’t going back to Red Bull. Mick Schumacher isn’t going to be a WDC for Ferrari, either.

 

[mustafur]

Red Bull has never skipped over their young driver programme for another team’s driver as far as I can remember

Coulthard and Webber where the last, the replacements for both of them where Vettel and Ricciardo though, but you can say with confidence that Gasly and Albon are not at that level.

From 2007 to 2013, Vettel was the only driver they promoted as their other junior drivers pre Ricciardo were not up to standard, they look like they are in a similar sceniaro now.

 

[Roger the Horse]

Not sure there's been a comparable situation since Benetton in 1994, quite extraordinary

Ferrari in 1996, arguably, although Irvine saw out the whole season there and saw better days with the team in the years to follow.

 

[mustafur]

Ferrari in 1996, arguably, although Irvine saw out the whole season there and saw better days with the team in the years to follow.

Jordan 1999, Damon Hill was basically racing against his will for a big chunk of that season and the gap between the two drivers was massive.

 

[Frank McGank]

Coulthard and Webber where the last, the replacements for both of them where Vettel and Ricciardo though, but you can say with confidence that Gasly and Albon are not at that level.

From 2007 to 2013, Vettel was the only driver they promoted as their other junior drivers pre Ricciardo were not up to standard, they look like they are in a similar sceniaro now.

Well DC had been in the team since before it was Red Bull so he doesn’t really count. Webber is the only outlier. RB aren’t in that scenario because they have a proven podium contender in Kvyat (he outscored Ricciardo in their one full season together, after all), and they also have Gasly who is showing a return to form. Even then, Albon isn’t THAT far off Verstappen in terms of race pace. His qualy pace is the only area he’s really lacking. They’re more likely to give Hartley another ring to seatwarm in the AlphaTauri after they bump one of them up than they are to take back Vettel.

 

[mustafur]

Well DC had been in the team since before it was Red Bull so he doesn’t really count.

Coulthard drove for Mclaren in 2004

RB aren’t in that scenario because they have a proven podium contender in Kvyat (he outscored Ricciardo in their one full season together, after all), and they also have Gasly who is showing a return to form. Even then, Albon isn’t THAT far off Verstappen in terms of race pace. His qualy pace is the only area he’s really lacking. They’re more likely to give Hartley another ring to seatwarm in the AlphaTauri after they bump one of them up than they are to take back Vettel.

Kyvat Outscored Ricciardo in 2015 because the times the car was most competitive Ricciardo retired from Mechanical issues he was comfortably beaten in speed by Ric.

Both Gasly and Albon both struggled in qualifying massively when they were in that seat, race pace Gasly was miles off Verstappen last year and Albon is somewhat close but when he qualifies in the back half of the grid he is no where near going for a podium.

They may be ready in several years but F1 isn't that forgiving you sink or swim.

 

[TheCracker]

I personally think Red Bull need to give their second-seat driver more time to find their feet. Constantly fearing that you could lose your seat at any time during a season is just piling on pressure on the shoulders of a young inexperienced driver, which in tern is going to lead to mistakes due to feeling they need to perform, or under perform due to the fear of making mistakes. It's not ideal environment for someone they need to be consistent.

They should commit to a driver for a full, unchallenged season and if they can't get where they want the driver to be by the end of that season, then cut them loose. I can't see how playing musical chairs between Red Bull and Alpha Tauri during a season does anyone any good.

 

[Frank McGank]

Coulthard drove for Mclaren in 2004
Kyvat Outscored Ricciardo in 2015 because the times the car was most competitive Ricciardo retired from Mechanical issues he was comfortably beaten in speed by Ric.

Both Gasly and Albon both struggled in qualifying massively when they were in that seat, race pace Gasly was miles off Verstappen last year and Albon is somewhat close but when he qualifies in the back half of the grid he is no where near going for a podium.

They may be ready in several years but F1 isn't that forgiving you sink or swim.

I could’ve sworn he was at Jaguar in 2004. My bad. Still, 2005 RB didn’t have a junior category, at least not to the point where they could adequately say they were ready for F1. They needed a veteran driver to help establish the team and develop the car. Something they don’t need now. The RB of 2005 is not the RB of 2020.

Even discounting unreliability, Kvyat beat Ricciardo fair and square at Malaysia, Monaco, Hungary, Mexico, and Brazil. Don’t you think you’re underselling him a bit? I get the meme is “Kvyat is a dangerous idiot who torpedoes people, ping pong racer” but he has legitimate talent.

Red Bull has, at least since the Vettel days, very much been a one car team with the second driver only serving as a tail gunner for the lead driver. They tried having two number 1s after Vettel left and it led to multiple on-track incidents. They, just like Mercedes, realised it was better for the team to have established N1 and N2 drivers. And that’s what Max’s teammate is always going to be. RB know they can’t beat Merc in the constructors, so their only goal is to beat Ferrari. As long as Albon (or Kyvat or Gasly or even Hartley) can manage that, they’ve got no reason to shop around. And definitely no reason to bring on a driver who already ditched them once and is now in the twilight of his career and has over the last several seasons shown himself to be unable to keep his cool or maintain his form when his younger teammate is faster than him. What do you think him having to race Verstappen will do to him? Ricciardo destroyed him to the point he joined Ferrari to save face, and Max is faster than Danny. Unless Seb can lead the team he’s going to, he’s not going. His ONLY chance is RP/Aston, and that’s a long shot because they’re happy with their current lineup.

 

[McLaren]

https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/22/racefans-round-up-22-08-3/

So according to one of the articles in here, Helmut Marko has Saud that Kvyat isn't performing as expected. Call it a conspiracy theory, but this seems like the first hint that there may be movement at Red Bull.

I wouldn't be surprised if Albon gets dumped back at AlphaTauri at the expense of Kvyat (who has now been quoted to be not up to what was expected), and Red Bull put a quick fix of Vettel or Hulkenberg in the second Red Bull to partner Verstappen, either during this season or for next. Red Bull will be too wary of promoting Gasly, despite his upturn of form, after his failure last year put them in this mess in the first place. Call it farfetched, but if it happens, you heard it here first.

There was an article in July that reported Vettel would accept a return to Red Bull. But, I think there was a follow-up from Red Bull that had in a way (IIRC), politely declined that was a possibility of happening next season. Then again, I just read a couple days ago that Horner defended Seb. saying, "We're not seeing the 'real' Vettel this season".

 

[numbnuts70]

A rumour of Hulk replacing Grosjean has resurfaced and possibly Perez replacing K Mag at Haas.

Link.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

If Red Bull were to put Vettel in, he would probably be the #2 driver.

 

[EngieDiesel]

A rumour of Hulk replacing Grosjean has resurfaced and possibly Perez replacing K Mag at Haas.

Link.

Hulk is also interested in a seat at Alfa Romeo, and Vasseur still speaks quite highly of him. Though obviously nobody wants to confirm anything right now.

 

[numbnuts70]

Hulk is also interested in a seat at Alfa Romeo, and Vasseur still speaks quite highly of him. Though obviously nobody wants to confirm anything right now.

Yeah, should be an interesting next couple of months.

 

[numbnuts70]

Another Hulk story with Alfa.

 

[Rossell2]

So raikkonen to retire and giovanazzi to maybe.. Haas? Replace grosjean maybe. As for whether it is mick Schumacher is down to whether or not schwartzman takes the f2 title.

 

[mustafur]

Schwartzman is a better driver then Mick, in his first season of F2 he is already fighting for the Title and above Schumacher.

He is also a Ferrari Academy driver so there is zero reason he shouldn't be picked over Mick.

 

[Frank McGank]

Schwartzman is a better driver then Mick, in his first season of F2 he is already fighting for the Title and above Schumacher.


He is also a Ferrari Academy driver so there is zero reason he shouldn't be picked over Mick.

The only people who want Mick are the people who are lost in the nostalgia of the early 00s and just want to see the ‘Schumacher’ name in a Ferrari.

So raikkonen to retire and giovanazzi to maybe.. Haas? Replace grosjean maybe. As for whether it is mick Schumacher is down to whether or not schwartzman takes the f2 title.

Doesn’t Kimi have a major administrative role in Alfa? I can’t imagine he’d retire from the team he owns a part of, unless the driver is demonstrably better than him. Giovinazzi really hasn’t been good enough to warrant a promotion to Haas. Or is Alfa-Haas more of a lateral move? I can see Grosjean being dropped for Schwartzman directly, so Ferrari will have 3 young drivers to observe as a potential partner for Leclerc (or Sainz, if for some strange reason he ends up faster than Charles). Giovinazzi for the patriotic aspect, Schwartzman as the youngest, and Magnussen for the fanbase/experience.

 

[-Fred-]

We all know Mick is going to Ferrari in the coming years once his agent Nicholas Todt replaces Mattias Binotto, with Eduardo Barrichello as a teammate. /s

I'll take 10 more years of Hamilton/Mercedes domination instead.

 

[EngieDiesel]

Doesn’t Kimi have a major administrative role in Alfa? I can’t imagine he’d retire from the team he owns a part of, unless the driver is demonstrably better than him. Giovinazzi really hasn’t been good enough to warrant a promotion to Haas. Or is Alfa-Haas more of a lateral move? I can see Grosjean being dropped for Schwartzman directly, so Ferrari will have 3 young drivers to observe as a potential partner for Leclerc (or Sainz, if for some strange reason he ends up faster than Charles). Giovinazzi for the patriotic aspect, Schwartzman as the youngest, and Magnussen for the fanbase/experience.

I feel Kimi could definitely be persuaded to step down if the right opportunity came along, he seems like he's getting a bit tired of his current situation. And Haas isn't directly affiliated with Ferrari, only paying for their engines, so Ferrari has no stake in the driver positions over there. If they did, Grosjean likely would have been out the door years ago.

 

[TheCracker]

so Ferrari has no stake in the driver positions over there. If they did, Grosjean likely would have been out the door years ago.

...and into the number two seat at Ferrari? I like the way you are thinking Just imagine all the chaos he could create further up the grid and the ensuing entertainment that would provide away from the starting-to-get-a-bit-dull-now Mercedes dominance.

 

[FutureF1]

With all the talk around Schumacher, Ilott, and Hulkenberg to Alfa Romeo, is it already a foregone conclusion that Giovinazzi is out?

 

[Liquid]

With all the talk around Schumacher, Ilott, and Hulkenberg to Alfa Romeo, is it already a foregone conclusion that Giovinazzi is out?

If it means David Croft will stop slurring his name, I'm all for it.

---

Re: Red Bull's Second Seat

It doesn't matter who is there. The second driver just doesn't get the same attention from the team, if not material. And I'm a Verstappen fan but it's patently obvious that Red Bull aren't serious about being a two car effort.

When Kvyat was at Toro Rosso, they creamed over him. At times.
He went up to Red Bull, it fell flat. A lot.

When Gasly was at Toro Rosso, they creamed over him. At times.
He went up to Red Bull, it fell flat. A lot.

When Kvyat went back to Toro Rosso, they creamed over him. At times.
He was touted as having "earnt his drive back". On occasion.

When Albon was at Toro Rosso, they creamed over him. At times.
He went up to Red Bull, it has fallen flat.

Gasly is now back at Toro Tauri, they're creaming over him again.
He too has "earnt his drive back".

I'm not saying this is a fixed, complete analysis applicable to every race as explicitly noted above nor to every driver with Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen being successful graduates but there is definitely a trend;

Do well at Toro Rosso
People say you're in with a chance of promotion
You get a drive at Red Bull in which you do terribly
Go back to Toro Rosso
Do well again
People start saying you're in with a chance of promotion again

Wash, rinse, repeat. I'm neither defending nor critiquing the current driver, Albon, nor am I trying to marginalise and mitigate what Gasly has done like winning at Monza, but a lot more needs to change at Red Bull Racing than simply whoever is in the second car.