2024 US Presidential Election Thread

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At best I think Biden doesn't care about the deaths of Palestinians. Whether or not he wants genocide, as far as I'm concerned he is willing to accept it as the cost of doing business.
Well that's very cynical.
If he has seen half of the footage I've seen from Gaza, and hasn't used any leverage to try and get it to stop, then he has no concern for genocide.

Let's be clear, he has leverage. The weapons we give Israel are leverage because we can stop sending them.
Like... like this? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/04/israel-us-gaza-joe-biden-benjamin-netanyahu-phone-call


I just don't see any evidence that Biden takes Israel's behavior seriously. He's not just refusing to sanction Israel. He's refusing to stop supporting them wholeheartedly.
His enthusiasm to support Israel, a long time ally of the US, is more than I'd like. I know Israelis, my wife works with Israelis. It does count for something how much closer Israel is socially than other nations. I'm not sure I'd call US support "wholehearted", it's definitely getting a little more "halfhearted", but I'd like it to be "not at all" personally.
I've watched the press conferences with State Dept and other officials. Every day it's denial about things the rest of the world has documented and accepted. With every piece of evidence of a war crime the response is "that's not our assessment" or "we have asked Israel to investigate"

If Biden claims he is against war crimes, I'd like him to provide some evidence of that. Saying it isn't good enough.
I understand this position. Jon Stewart has put together some montages of this, and I think it's fair. It does seem that we're playing dumb, and I agree with you that it's not particularly believable. The US has been involved more recently in facilitating a cease fire. I wish we weren't involved in that either.
 
If he has seen half of the footage I've seen from Gaza, and hasn't used any leverage to try and get it to stop, then he has no concern for genocide.
If we continue to support an ally like Ukraine, but stop supporting an ally like Israel, what message do you think that sends to other friendly nations of ours? What message do you think it sends to unfriendly nations?
 
Well that's very cynical.
I don't think I'm generally a cynical person. But I can only take so much.
This exactly my point. Biden says "protect civilians or else." Months later, Israel is still killing civilians, doctors, journalists, etc.

And the "or else" doesn't happen. Zero consequences. In fact, as I showed above, Biden even shows contempt for the institutions that actually make an attempt to impose consequences.

In other words, his calls for a ceasefire are all optics. He claimed invading Rafah was a red line. Then israel conducted airstrikes on rafah, entered the city, captured the crossing, and in the process killed Palestinian civilians. The US response? “I have no policy changes to speak to” -John Kirby, 28 May

Meanwhile Israel rejects the ICJ's order to halt the offensive.

31st of May, IDF confirms its presence and activity in central Rafah. Israel continues shelling and bombing in Rafah to this day. There are tanks in Rafah. They killed four Palestinians yesterday.

Silence from the Biden administration. No red line. No consequences.

The most damning thing is that, while Netanyahu complained last week that the US was witholding weapons and ammunition from Israel, the US emphatically denies that it's withholding anything. In other words, the even the Biden administration is not claiming it has ever imposed a single consequence on Israel. It simply claims Israel has not done anything wrong, even while Palestinian civilians die every day. Even when the ICC, ICJ, UN, etc. all say Israel need to stop violating international law.

Sure, call me cynical.

His enthusiasm to support Israel, a long time ally of the US, is more than I'd like. I know Israelis, my wife works with Israelis. It does count for something how much closer Israel is socially than other nations. I'm not sure I'd call US support "wholehearted", it's definitely getting a little more "halfhearted", but I'd like it to be "not at all" personally.

I understand this position. Jon Stewart has put together some montages of this, and I think it's fair. It does seem that we're playing dumb, and I agree with you that it's not particularly believable. The US has been involved more recently in facilitating a cease fire. I wish we weren't involved in that either.

Blinken and Biden have taken up the reigns of US imperialism with the eagerness of Kissinger (while feigning delicate consideration). The US has destroyed countless innocent lives since its inception. It's not cynicism, it's realism. Cynicism would be believing it's impossible to do better.

If we continue to support an ally like Ukraine, but stop supporting an ally like Israel, what message do you think that sends to other friendly nations of ours? What message do you think it sends to unfriendly nations?

I would hope it would send the message that we are willing to support our allies up until the point that they commit war crimes. Maybe then our allies would think twice about committing war crimes.

Frankly, we shouldn't be allies with Israel at all, at least not as it pertains to Gaza. The UN has concluded multiple times, most recently in 2022, that Israel's occupation of Palestine is unlwaful. Instead, we should be recognizing Palestine's statehood and sovereignty like 145 out of 193 member states of the UN do.
 
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Diseases that weren't a problem in America before, are now a problem because of an open border. Thanks Biden
Even if this were remotely true, Trump had four years to fix the border but didn't. Even in opposition the Republicans voted against strengthening border controls because they know a weak border gives benighted rednecks something to gripe about.

GAfj6P8X0AEtDtV.jpeg
 
Even if this were remotely true, Trump had four years to fix the border but didn't. Even in opposition the Republicans voted against strengthening border controls because they know a weak border gives benighted rednecks something to gripe about.

View attachment 1368489
Are you serious? 😂 Most secure border until Joe the Houseplant undid everything. My lord you have to be joking. That bill, loaded with crap and handouts. Like every bill proposed by a Democrat. BTW, that law looks to have passed, and was signed by President Trump. Nice self own.
 
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Hah!


"Fox: New fundraising numbers after last nights debate show last night's showdown between President Biden and Donald Trump. Trump raised $8 million, while the Biden campaign out-raised them at $14 million," wrote @bidenharrishq.
 
You think that means what you think? Seems like desperation. Biden has lost MSNBC, the View, CNN, Politico, and almost every D CongressCritter is terrified!
 
You think that means what you think? Seems like desperation. Biden has lost MSNBC, the View, CNN, Politico, and almost every D CongressCritter is terrified!

And apparently…nobody cares

…and we’re all still voting for him over trump…

Also, nobody cares about the noise on msnbc, cnn, or politico anymore.

….the view?
 
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I would hope it would send the message that we are willing to support our allies up until the point that they commit war crimes. Maybe then our allies would think twice about committing war crimes.
Unfortunately that's not the message it sends.

The message that it sends to our allies is that we are not steadfast. We pick and choose who to support and when based on popular sentiment rather than law and treaties. It suggest that we'll reneg on the contracts we've signed when it no longer suits us. It breaks trust.

The message that it sends to our enemies is that we're weak. We will give into popular support which is something that our enemies can exploit, spinning their mission in a way that is attractive to our society, and undermining our society's support of our own government. This is happening in real time with Gaza, as Hamas has effectively used propaganda to make children in America worry more about the Palestinian cause and completely forget that Hamas is a human-shielded terrorist organization.

While these attitudes don't necessarily help their cause, what it does is sew chaos within our country and undermine the fabric of our society. That ties in perfectly with the overarching goals of terrorism, which is why we can't submit to such things. All the extremist pro-palestinians in America are playing right into the hands of terrorism and it's embarrasing. But I guess I shouldn't expect anything less because most of them weren't even alive the last time we got a taste of the good stuff.
 
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Unfortunately that's not the message it sends.

The message that it sends to our allies is that we are not steadfast. We pick and choose who to support and when based on popular sentiment rather than law and treaties. It suggest that we'll reneg on the contracts we've signed when it no longer suits us. It breaks trust.

The message that it sends to our enemies is that we're weak. We will give into popular support which is something that our enemies can exploit, spinning their mission in a way that is attractive to our society, and undermining our society's support of our own government.
It really depends on how it's done. Breaking trust with someone who doesn't deserve trust is generally a positive thing.

However, there is an argument that the majority of world governments are so corrupt that almost none of them will see acting ethically as a good thing. Because they will just get scared that maybe the US will push back against their ******** next. Certainly the military industrial complex in general is staggeringly corrupt.

Are you better off in an allied group of corrupt cowards who all have each other's backs than striking out to create a more just and moral world order? Probably, it's certainly safer in the short term. But it means that stuff like Gaza will continue to happen.

As for the enemies thinking that the US is weak, no enemy that you should be actually worried about thinks the US is weak militarily. But there is definite disruption within the US at the moment that means that actual decision making can be difficult. The US is very split right now, and none of the leaders are charismatic, intelligent and decisive enough to be able to overcome that. That is something that can be taken advantage of.

Were the US able to take a clear stance on something divisive like Israel/Gaza, I think that would make enemies view the US as stronger no matter what the actual decision was. A US that can make strong, quick, effective decisions on key issues is more of a threat to any enemy than one that waffles, even if sometimes those decisions are "we are not getting involved in this, you're on your own".
This is happening in real time with Gaza, as Hamas has effectively used propaganda to make children in America worry more about the Palestinian cause and completely forget that Hamas is a human-shielded terrorist organization.
Sure, but the response to a bunch of terrorists that hide behind a human shield is not to just kill the human shield. That's what they want you to do, because they know the only card they have to play is somehow convincing the world that you're a bigger monster than they are.

Honestly, it's working. Israel is credibly a greater threat to the general world order than Hamas. Hamas could kill some Israelis, but that was about the limit of their reach. They had no real goals outside of sovereignty and land that had been contested since the day Israel was created. Anyone who was not Israel had nothing really to fear from Hamas.

Israel is demonstrating that it can systematically cleanse entire sections of land given a suitable "excuse", and every state on Israel's borders and all their allies are thinking about what that potentially means for them. Israel has not been shy about it's expansionist policies in the past. Hamas couldn't start WW3, but Israel might if they thought they could get away with it. This is why proportionality of response is important.
While these attitudes don't necessarily help their cause, what it does is sew chaos within our country and undermine the fabric of our society. That ties in perfectly with the overarching goals of terrorism, which is why we can't submit to such things. All the extremist pro-palestinians in America are playing right into the hands of terrorism and it's embarrasing. But I guess I shouldn't expect anything less because most of them weren't even alive the last time we got a taste of the good stuff.
Let's be honest, the post-9/11 "response" to terrorism did not overall prove to be highly successful. An eye for an eye I'm going to kill you, your family, and your dog turned out to just create massive destablised states that were then even more susceptible to extremists and required massive intervention to get them back to anywhere near the sort of predictable low-level threat that they were before.

Arguably a lot of that stuff wasn't really about terrorism and was just opportunistic, but that sort of applies to Israel and Gaza as well.

Terrorism is ****ed, but it doesn't come out of nowhere. Organised terror groups generally have some sort of legitimate dissatisfaction at their core or they wouldn't be so popular. Attacking that and undermining their reason for existence has generally been more successful than direct violence, and where direct violence is required it has proven far more effective to have small operations with very defined goals and durations.

But it's less exciting on the news and it's less satisfying to a society that is generally bloodthirsty but has almost no first hand experience with war or it's aftermath. Everyone knows deep down that the US is incredibly interventionist and will stick it's two cents into anything and everything even to it's own detriment. And it's own citizens get mad when it doesn't.
 
Unfortunately that's not the message it sends.

The message that it sends to our allies is that we are not steadfast. We pick and choose who to support and when based on popular sentiment rather than law and treaties. It suggest that we'll reneg on the contracts we've signed when it no longer suits us. It breaks trust.
Israel has reneged on its commitment to follow international law. It doesn't want to obey "laws and treaties" and has said that the international community has no authority.

And what message does it send to our allies when we veto ceasefire resolutions supported by a huge majority of UN member states—three separate times?

Israel is not our only ally, and right now we are sending the message that we don't want to be part of the international community.

"We made our position clear on the ICC," President Joe Biden said Thursday. "We don't recognize their jurisdiction, the way it's been exercised, and it's that simple."

If your friend becomes a murderer you don't support them.

The message that it sends to our enemies is that we're weak. We will give into popular support which is something that our enemies can exploit, spinning their mission in a way that is attractive to our society, and undermining our society's support of our own government. This is happening in real time with Gaza, as Hamas has effectively used propaganda to make children in America worry more about the Palestinian cause and completely forget that Hamas is a human-shielded terrorist organization.

While these attitudes don't necessarily help their cause, what it does is sew chaos within our country and undermine the fabric of our society. That ties in perfectly with the overarching goals of terrorism, which is why we can't submit to such things. All the extremist pro-palestinians in America are playing right into the hands of terrorism and it's embarrasing. But I guess I shouldn't expect anything less because most of them weren't even alive the last time we got a taste of the good stuff.
Sorry, no.

It doesn't require propaganda for me to believe Palestinians are human beings, or that war crimes are bad.

The human shields thing is stupid. You don't shoot through a hostage to kill a bank robber. The whole point of killing a hamas soldier is to ensure the safety of Israelis, right? But if you're willing to kill a Palestinian civilians to do it, it means you value the safety of Israelis more than the lives of Palestinians. I will never reconcile that with my eithics.

And don't patronize me. I was alive for the Iraq War and I'm very aware of the fact that we manufactured consent for a conflict that killed at least a hundred thousand Iraqi civilians. I'm also aware that the war destroyed the US reputation internationally. I'm also aware of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the bombing of Dresden. Turns out I don't think it's acceptable to kill scores of civilians even if it helps you win a war, and it wasn't Japanese or German propaganda that convinced me of that, it was basic humanity. Don't get me started on Vietnam.

We have a horrific track record here and it needs to stop.

I'm sick of the US prioritizing its image of "strength" over its duty to follow the law and respect human rights.
 
But if you're willing to kill a Palestinian civilians to do it, it means you value the safety of Israelis more than the lives of Palestinians. I will never reconcile that with my eithics.
There isn't and wouldn't be any state that value its citizens and foreigners equally. Its double loyalty at best and treason at worst.
Israel has reneged on its commitment to follow international law. It doesn't want to obey "laws and treaties" and has said that the international community has no authority.
UN supplying HAMAS, why would Israel care about international law?

US don't care about international law to the point that they would extract their citizens from Hague court by force.
 
I know English is a challenging language…but wow buddy…
Yeah, I type too fast sometimes. Thanks

There isn't and wouldn't be any state that value its citizens and foreigners equally. Its double loyalty at best and treason at worst.

UN supplying HAMAS, why would Israel care about international law?

US don't care about international law to the point that they would extract their citizens from Hague court by force.
To understand warfare and collateral damage, first understand that HAMAS uses the people in Gaza as shields. Always has, and will until they're all dead. HAMAS also could get a cease fire immediately if they return all hostages. Reports of casualty numbers coming out of Gaza aren't to be trusted, I don't think that Israel intentionally target civilians alone there has to be a military target.
 
This exactly my point. Biden says "protect civilians or else." Months later, Israel is still killing civilians, doctors, journalists, etc.

This is a far cry from your comment that Biden wants genocide, or that he is fine with it as a cost of doing business. Honestly it looks like shifting goalposts.


In other words, his calls for a ceasefire are all optics. He claimed invading Rafah was a red line. Then israel conducted airstrikes on rafah, entered the city, captured the crossing, and in the process killed Palestinian civilians. The US response? “I have no policy changes to speak to” -John Kirby, 28 May

Meanwhile Israel rejects the ICJ's order to halt the offensive.

31st of May, IDF confirms its presence and activity in central Rafah. Israel continues shelling and bombing in Rafah to this day. There are tanks in Rafah. They killed four Palestinians yesterday.

Silence from the Biden administration. No red line. No consequences.

It's very difficult to respond to this. You don't link much of it so I'm left having to look up actual words used. For example "invading" is an interesting word. It's also nearly impossible to know what is being said privately. But I think you're getting side-tracked on Biden managing Israel from where we started, which is that you were claiming Biden wants or is ambivalent to genocide. That doesn't appear to be the case.

Israel is indeed committing war crimes. The Biden administration appears to be putting (not enough) pressure to stop that. But I wouldn't confuse that with the idea that the Biden administration wants to see war crimes, or is committing them itself. And further, I wouldn't then pass that on to Biden voters to claim that they also want to see war crimes, or are responsible for them.

It is possible to criticize the Biden admin for handling of Israel (for any Trump supporters, do not take this to mean that Trump would do better, it would be worse because he'd encourage it), without hyperbole, without claim that he wants to see genocide, or that the Biden admin is genocidal itself, or that Biden voters are. You're not just sacrificing the truth by going there, you're also alienating people you probably intend to persuade.



I would hope it would send the message that we are willing to support our allies up until the point that they commit war crimes. Maybe then our allies would think twice about committing war crimes.

I agree. We do not have to blindly support allies who commit war crimes. I'm not sure why we "support" Israel militarily at all to be honest. It seems like they've got it covered. Maybe that's naive of me. I'd like us to help them a lot less. If they start to get attacked by Iran or something, maybe we get involved, but I'd like our involvement to be our involvement. Not handing them weapons and letting them shoot whoever they choose with them. And definitely applying more, a lot more, pressure to prevent them from committing the awful acts they are.

You could argue that this is almost directly contradictory to my stance on Ukraine. That I'm more than happy to give Ukraine weapons and let them shoot whoever they choose, and for us to not be directly involved. But Ukraine is different. Ukraine is fighting Russia, and at least for now, the use of weapons seems super clear. When it's not, let's not keep handing them weapons. Also it would be bad for the world for the US to get too directly involved against Russia.
 
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We have a horrific track record here and it needs to stop.

I'm sick of the US prioritizing its image of "strength" over its duty to follow the law and respect human rights.
...and how do you expect that to end by potentially voting in someone who likely will be just as bad if not even worse? At least in regards to Palestine, Trump probably wouldn't mind directly aiding Israel in murdering Palestinians like they're a bunch of rodents in need of pesticide.
The problem I'd argue isn't Biden or Trump, it's US foreign policy in general being a bit ****, regardless of if it's Reps or Dems in charge. As such, whoever you vote for probably won't change it significantly. It may do for Ukraine though, but that's less cuz "anti-war" and more cuz Republicans are so in love with daddy Putin they'd love him to invade the rest of Europe once he's done in Ukraine.
 
Republicans are so in love with daddy Putin
It was Trump order to annihilate 200 Wagner PMCs in Syria. First time since Vietnam Americans were involved into direct conflict with Russian forces. Meanwhile, both invasions into Ukraine were while Democrats were in charge. Did they send heavy weapons right away? No. Obama said that he would handle Crimea peacefully and Ukraine shouldn't try to take it back by force and Biden asked Zelenskiy if he want to run into Poland(weapons not taxi episode).

Trump is isolationist, but he has balls and don't afraid escalation. Biden constantly drawing lines, opposition crossing it and he doing nothing(Rafah, Navalniy, war). Its worst behaviour you can do as politician.
 
It was Trump order to annihilate 200 Wagner PMCs in Syria. First time since Vietnam Americans were involved into direct conflict with Russian forces.
The funny part about using PMCs is they allow you plausible deniability. Which is exactly what Russia did.
Bloomberg, however, reported that three Russian sources told them the attack was conducted by Russian mercenaries, and that as many as 200 Russian "contract soldiers" died in the attack.

Russia has denied that any of its forces were killed or wounded in the attack, but evidence that Russians had died have slowly begun to surface on Russian social media.

So, Trump's administration being responsible for the deaths of 200 Wagner PMCs isn't some evidence that disproves Trump & Putin's friendliness. Because Putin coming out upset Trump killed his soldiers would give the whole point of the PMCs away....

Now, you've let it out multiple times that you have an uninformed view on Trump, so I'm gonna post the transcript from the Presidential recent debate in which Trump gave away he had knowledge of the Ukraine invasion.
“When Putin saw that he said ‘I think we’re going to go in. This was his dream, I talked to him about it.

Yeah, some balls on the guy who claims he can end the war before even taking office, but did nothing to prevent it, either. And regarding sw3g005's statement that Trump would be happy to let Putin try running his hands through Europe, well, he's flat out admitted that.
“NATO was busted until I came along,” Trump said at a rally in Conway, South Carolina. “I said, ‘Everybody’s gonna pay.’ They said, ‘Well, if we don’t pay, are you still going to protect us?’ I said, ‘Absolutely not.’ They couldn’t believe the answer.”
Which isn't the first time he wanted to do so. From 2019:
Senior administration officials told The New York Times that several times over the course of 2018, Mr. Trump privately said he wanted to withdraw from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Current and former officials who support the alliance said they feared Mr. Trump could return to his threat as allied military spending continued to lag behind the goals the president had set.

Oh, how absolutely convenient this was going on during Trump & Putin's off the record meetings.
 
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The funny part about using PMCs is they allow you plausible deniability. Which is exactly what Russia did.
Totally the same as USSR did in Korea and Vietnam.
So, Trump's administration being responsible for the deaths of 200 Wagner PMCs isn't some evidence that disproves Trump & Putin's friendliness. Because Putin coming out upset Trump killed his soldiers would give the whole point of the PMCs away....
Wagner was Russian asset, its official info confirmed by Putin recently. Putin and Trump could resolve this undercover without anyone die, if they want to. They don't.
Trump gave away he had knowledge of the Ukraine invasion
Everyone know about it could happen, Russian army was ready to go in early 2021.
but did nothing to prevent it
You need to be in power to prevent anything. As we all know in 2021 Trump wasn't in charge, more like charged
Trump would be happy to let Putin try running his hands through Europe, well, he's flat out admitted that.
Trump dont want to pay for European defense, if Europe dont want to pay for herself. Not sure how you come to conclusion that Trump giving Europe to Putin.
 
They miss the whole context of that statement. But, not this one. "I'm not giving you the billion dollars unless that prosecutor is fired" , Joe Biden.
Trump was negotiating NATO to, I'll use a Biden quote again. So libs understand , to "pay their fair share", something liberals love to tell everyone.
 
I swear you trump supporters think he’s a cross between Rodney Dangerfield and Dice Clay…

Your fantasy about him somehow being ‘strong,’ is just that. A fantasy. He’s a garden variety snake oil salesman, whose daddy set him up. Guy has no honor, no integrity, and no balls. Never did.

Anyway, I would direct you to the phrase, Fortress America. Go look and see how well that 💩 played out..

Ps: if you people are going to go on about boarders, migrants, and all of that noise…maybe, just maybe, learn English.
 
I swear you trump supporters think he’s a cross between Rodney Dangerfield and Dice Clay…

Your fantasy about him somehow being ‘strong,’ is just that. A fantasy. He’s a garden variety snake oil salesman, whose daddy set him up. Guy has no honor, no integrity, and no balls. Never did.

Anyway, I would direct you to the phrase, Fortress America. Go look and see how well that 💩 played out..

Ps: if you people are going to go on about boarders, migrants, and all of that noise…maybe, just maybe, learn English.
😂 The hypocrisy of the left is hilarious. Refusal to see is it worse.
 

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