2024 US Presidential Election Thread

  • Thread starter ryzno
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Populuxe
I see the distinction you're making, and fair enough. I have not provided clear evidence that billionaires are ginning up concerns about Biden's age in an effort to get people concerned enough to openly discuss removing him from the ticket. But I don't need Peter Thiel to go on the Joe Rogan podcast and openly state "I am spending millions ginning up concerns about Biden's age in an effort to get people concerned enough to openly discuss removing him from the ticket" to believe that's what he and others are doing. That's not a conspiracy theory. Billionaires have the motivation, and thanks to Citizens United vs. FEC, the opportunity and means to sway the election to a more favorable outcome for themselves. Of course they're doing it.

And of course I don't think the list of people you provided have been "bought" by billionaires. I believe they are genuine in their concern. But that doesn't mean I think they're right. Democrats have a bad habit of going full Chicken Little when things aren't going 100% their way. I think that's what's happening here. A lot of good people are getting swept up by a bad idea masquerading as a good idea.
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The only thing I can do is urge you to resist this kind of conspiratorial thinking, for your own psychological well being.

What you have developed for yourself is a conspiracy of wealthy people that you believe are behind a nefarious plot and have duped well-meaning but dumb and gullible people into supporting their nefarious end. It's nearly non-falsifiable, and confirmation bias should do the rest of the work to solidify it in your mind. But you need to take a step back and look at what you're actually proposing, and what has actually happened.

Billionaires are throwing money at Trump to help him win.

Democrats started calling for Biden to step down after a full old man meltdown in a debate.

This is not something that was happening months ago, though grumblings about age were present. And we're not talking about a young healthy spry person in his prime who is having no trouble doing the job. We're talking about the guy who introduced Zelenskyy as Putin. We're talking about someone who 4 years from now is 85 years old. The facts in front of us are that there is a very real reason to be concerned that Biden has fallen too far to convince swing voters in a tough election. You seem to acknowledge this. You also seem to acknowledge the reality that these people are Biden supporters, but are also apparently facing the real issue of Biden's decline.

Look to what is needed to explain the facts, and then hang up the phone. You do not need to invent a reason why Obama could council Biden (someone he has campaigned for and supported all along) to step aside other than what is in front of you. There is no need to pretend that Billionaires are pushing or duping democrats into doing this. All we need is the information that is plain for all to see. And if that's all you need, a conspiracy is doing nothing but harming you, personally.

Edit:
I want to make it clear for anyone else reading this, I would vote for Biden in a heartbeat. He has a VP, so if he falls apart next year, he has someone who can fill in for the job. I also don't think swing voters and apathetic voters are necessarily looking into it this far.
 
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Danoff
The only thing I can do is urge you to resist this kind of conspiratorial thinking, for your own psychological well being.
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OFFS. We landed on the moon, the Holocaust happened, Trump lost, and I have my Covid shots. I don't have a cork board and a bunch of push pins and red yarn. I just think very rich people are going to use their money in unscrupulous ways to benefit themselves. And yes, I think they are taking advantage of this particular opportunity. That's not a conspiracy theory. Just a belief in the corrupting power of vast amounts of money.
 
Danoff
And I gave you a direct answer.

And why is their perspective what it is? And why do you think it overlaps with... um.. mine? Not sure what you think is overlapping.

Edit: Also "reading from the same script" is an unnecessarily conspiratorial way of saying "agree".

What do you mean by staying in line? Being able to give a debate or speech without trailing off or fumbling around the point?


I simply do not know what your point is, because you won't say it.

What do you think Biden did that pissed off your imagined conspiracy of billionaires? Why do you think it's that instead of just looking too old in a debate or speeches.

This situation is VERY straightforward. Biden is old, voters were worried about that. He had a debate where he looked old and weak and effectively "lost" to a buffoon who lied and rambled on the other side. As I've said several times, he played UP the fears that he is too old. And now that that's happened, his chances of winning have declined, and people are thinking with the stakes as high as they are that he should step down. If he's elected, 4 years from now he'll be 85.

None of that needs a conspiracy. None of it needs amorphous rich people pulling strings about something else entirely which you won't say. None of it cries out for another explanation. It's all very straightforward. For some reason you seem to think it needs another explanation, but you won't tell us why or really even what it is.

So don't be surprised if we don't take your cause up.
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No ones asking you to take up a cause, or change your mind. Just saying what I’ve heard, or know, and every once in a while, conclude. And i will announce when it’s a conclusion. People do with it whatever they like.

Initially, i said you might consider things for a moment, from the perspective, that Biden’s fine. Then this thing started looking more and more like a duck. Then after lasting so long..and pointedly, in the media. It started to walk like a duck.

Apparently, last night AoC put out something on instagram, which sounded like it might have quacked a little.

As far as theories go. I usually come up with a few whenever something goes down. First one to bingo wins. Old Biden got a card. Big money didn’t pop into my head until after the first week..but appears to be making up ground. Anyway, you say conspiracy, i say..thats how the worlds always worked.
 
Populuxe
OFFS. We landed on the moon, the Holocaust happened, Trump lost, and I have my Covid shots. I don't have a cork board and a bunch of push pins and red yarn. I just think very rich people are going to use their money in unscrupulous ways to benefit themselves. And yes, I think they are taking advantage of this particular opportunity. That's not a conspiracy theory. Just a belief in the corrupting power of vast amounts of money.
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More with the motte and bailey arguments. I'm not telling you that rich people aren't trying to influence the election. In fact I said they did. When you're on defense, you pretend this is your argument and that it's 100% defensible (even though I have agreed to it). When you're on offense, suddenly Biden is being pressured out of office because of a conspiracy of billionaires influencing people like Obama, Schiff, Schumer, and Stewart. But you won't touch that when you're on defense.

This is intellectual dishonesty, to yourself. You're tricking yourself. This is how people fall for conspiracies.
Kriptical
Initially, i said you might consider things for a moment, from the perspective, that Biden’s fine. Then this thing started looking more and more like a duck. Then after lasting so long..and pointedly, in the media. It started to walk like a duck.

Apparently, last night AoC put out something on instagram, which sounded like it might have quacked a little.

As far as theories go. I usually come up with a few whenever something goes down. First one to bingo wins. Old Biden got a card. Big money didn’t pop into my head until after the first week..but appears to be making up ground. Anyway, you say conspiracy, i say..thats how the worlds always worked.
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Look, it's confirmation bias in real time!

Your preconceived notion that conspiracies are how the world has always worked is what led you to see a wholly unnecessary one here, and now you're like "I think I saw something on Instagram maybe" - and this is confirming your preconceived "everything is a conspiracy" worldview. Maybe try taking that massive dose of skepticism you reserve for every straightforward explanation and use just the tiniest bit of it on the conspiracy itself for a change?
 
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Danoff
More with the motte and bailey arguments. I'm not telling you that rich people aren't trying to influence the election. In fact I said they did. When you're on defense, you pretend this is your argument and that it's 100% defensible (even though I have agreed to it). When you're on offense, suddenly Biden is being pressured out of office because of a conspiracy of billionaires influencing people like Obama, Schiff, Schumer, and Stewart. But you won't touch that when you're on defense.

This is intellectual dishonesty, to yourself. You're tricking yourself. This is how people fall for conspiracies.

Look, it's confirmation bias in real time!

Your preconceived notion that conspiracies are how the world has always worked is what led you to see a wholly unnecessary one here, and now you're like "I think I saw something on Instagram maybe" - and this is confirming your preconceived "everything is a conspiracy" worldview. Maybe try taking that massive dose of skepticism you reserve for every straightforward explanation and use just the tiniest bit of it on the conspiracy itself for a change?
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You miss the bingo card thing?

Also, I might have checked that insta thing. Or at least tldr’d it.(thats all i did)
 
Kriptical
Anyway, as much as the replace Biden hypothesis is pedaled here, it’s worth repeating that this is less about his age, or debate performance, and more about someone who the billionaires thought would stay in line. But isn’t.

Not trying to change anyone’s mind. The trenches are obviously dug deeply and my thumbs have limits..but the billionaire water carrying irks me.
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Not really sure what your point is but you're living up to you username.

If you think corporate America is pulling the strings because Biden isn't toeing whatever line you think he should be toeing then post some evidence to support it. Who are these billionaires that a Biden administration would help so dearly? Hell, he's actively costing a bunch of them money by trying to write off student debt and capping drug prices etc.
 
Keef
Not really sure what your point is but you're living up to you username.

If you think corporate America is pulling the strings because Biden isn't toeing whatever line you think he should be toeing then post some evidence to support it. Who are these billionaires that a Biden administration would help so dearly? Hell, he's actively costing a bunch of them money by trying to write off student debt and capping drug prices etc.
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No bud. I said the opposite. That Biden has not been towing the line for big money, and they are what appears to be, big mad, about it. Anti trust, crypto, student loan forgiveness. I believe some sort of rent control proposal. 25% corporate tax, increased taxes on households north of 100mil..just off of the top of my head, there is likely plenty of other stuff im unaware of.

In retrospect, i suppose all of this kinda makes sense. Biden has been a life long centrist. Which usually means never going far enough to tick off big money. Then he did. I’d wager they thought themselves fairly safe with mbna joe, as they stared down warren, then sanders 4yrs ago. The whole thing would be fascinating, if trump wasn’t such an existential threat to democracy. In a period of world turmoil. Quite the surreal moment.
 
It can be simultaneously true that:

  • Very wealthy people mad at Biden's less capitalist-friendly policies and acts (student loan forgiveness, etc.) want to paint Biden as enfeebled in order to tank his vote in favour of reinstalling 45, who was better for their bank balance.
  • Russia prefers the insular, narrow-focus, short-sighted, total lack of forward-planning of (alleged asset) 45 to someone more competent, as it suits their aims (including but not limited to Ukraine) and has its troll farms working against Biden by focusing on his gaffes and anything that portrays him as weak.
  • Biden actually is showing signs of mental and physical decline and it would be concerning to have him running against 45 or as President for the next four years.

It's not necessary that someone who accepts the final point is being hoodwinked by billionaires/Russia into not voting for Biden; I think everyone who's said they'll vote D this time has said it's a concern but they'll still vote D because the alternative is patently worse - and in any case 25A is a solution to that issue. We're not seeing "Biden's senile, I'm voting 45" from anyone who was not already a committed 45 voter.
 
Keef
Not really sure what your point is but you're living up to you username.

If you think corporate America is pulling the strings because Biden isn't toeing whatever line you think he should be toeing then post some evidence to support it. Who are these billionaires that a Biden administration would help so dearly? Hell, he's actively costing a bunch of them money by trying to write off student debt and capping drug prices etc.
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Well, the beginning of the post seems to understand that the billionaires are upset and wielding their influence, and wants me to go find some links for them.

Then it pivots, as it wonders who among billionaires benefits from a Biden administration. When the point is them currently acting as if they have soggy bottoms.

Then back, once again citing how the administration is irritating big pharma and the banks(loans).

If your looking for me to run around the web, on my phone collecting quotes, and links from news sites, some behind paywalls. Probably going to be waiting a long time. Besides, its all out there. Most can be found among the usual suspects, the ft, cnn, guardian, ibd, yada..

As far as general policy I think he ticked a bunch if them off at this years state of the union.
Danoff
Uh...
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The rest of my post you neglected quoting provided enough examples to get you started. My response may have been a bit confused but as i’ve pointed out the op’s tacked back and forth a bit within a paragraph as well. Suppose finishing my first coffee before responding would have been wiser.


Ps: @Yard_Sale Yup

Pps: @Famine agreed. And to reiterate im a registered independent who will be voting D all the way down the ballot to make a point this time around. That said, this is blooming into something much more interesting than, Biden old! And viewing it solely through that lens is very limiting. Besides, part of the evolving billionaires angle, is that Biden hadn’t really upset them until this year, and that this campaign is one of opportunity. As such it always interesting to see what machinations are revealed. Who is has a spine, and who doesn’t. At the very least, it’s starting to feel more and more like an important moment in the history of the country.
 
Blitz24
If this is legitimate, we will have a new candidate:
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It looks like it. BBC are reporting it now. :(

Very sad for Joe Biden, but definitely the right call.

-

-

This is the post I was writing as the news above broke:

Any candidate will always have donors with any number of vested interests, but I seriously doubt that any major donor to a POTUS candidate would withdraw their support for personal gain, even Trump's donors (though not all)...

In Biden's case, though, it is the reasons behind the withdrawal of key support, from mega-donors to close political allies, that are more disturbing. Yes, the media and his opponents will and are jumping on every mistake, but alas these are not the only reason that people are worried - when close allies are reporting that Biden didn't recognise them, has appeared to struggle even in private meetings, and has made such horrendous public gaffes in recent weeks, it is little wonder that his support is draining away.
 
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I still maintain that Biden is a good president and he inherited one hell of a mess and navigated it with professionalism and competence. I wish he was 10 years younger...I wish he had run in 2016 where he would have surely demolished Trump and Trumpism itself. If he had, he would be bowing out now as a 2-term President probably with a healthy list of accomplishments. In some ways he's the epitome of a career politician, but I also think he has done it primarily to serve his country.

Now...what the hell happens next. Is Kamala really going to be the nominee? She needs an absolute super star VP because I don't think she's particularly strong. I still think Mark Kelly needs to get in this.
 
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Eunos_Cosmo
I still maintain that Biden is a good president and he inherited one hell of a mess and navigated it with professionalism and competence. I wish he was 10 years younger...I wish he had run in 2016 where he would have surely demolished Trump and Trumpism itself. If he had, he would be bowing out now as a 2-term President probably with a healthy list of accomplishments. In some ways he's the epitome of a career politician, but I also think he has done it primarily to serve his country.

Now...what the hell happens next. Is Kamala really going to be the nominee? She needs an absolute super star VP because I don't think she's particularly strong.
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Whitmer will be an option but an interesting spin MIGHT be Manchin.
 
Blitz24
Whitmer will be an option but an interesting spin MIGHT be Manchin.
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Two women can't win, IMO. Maybe Kamala can be a more likeable person when she isn't stuffed into the Biden-VP box.

Edit: Hella interesting ticket: Kamala-Haley. Two women of Indian heritage vs two white dudes.
 
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Omnis
Thank god Biden is standing down. Not only will this make the DNC possibly extremely entertaining, but, man, I don't think he would have remained competent over the next 4 years.
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I think this was a very underrated risk. Even if he won...what the hell was gonna Biden be like in 2028?
 
biden.jpg
 
Harris - Jeffries would work. But I'm guessing they will go for a white male to balance out the minority female candidate. Can't get too extreme for old people.
 

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