26 cars lined up for 2010 & bile from Bernie

[Flerbizky]

I wonder what a 4WD F1 car would look like. It would have to be very car-like rather than Formula-like. Would look very ugly as well.

Can't get much uglier than now anyway :-/

 

[Ardius]

I wonder what a 4WD F1 car would look like. It would have to be very car-like rather than Formula-like. Would look very ugly as well.

This post hurts my head.

 

[yeti]

On another note - do all the tracks have Pits big enough for 26 cars in them?

I seem to remember a couple of years ago someone complaining that X circuits pits were too small - and that was when we had 22... (I can't remember what X circuit was though)

C.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

This post hurts my head.

I've long since given up trying to make sense of, well ... anything he posts. Ignorance, as they say, is bliss.

 

[Sureboss]

On another note - do all the tracks have Pits big enough for 26 cars in them?

I seem to remember a couple of years ago someone complaining that X circuits pits were too small - and that was when we had 22... (I can't remember what X circuit was though)

C.

They were Magny Cours and Montreal iirc.

 

[Metar]

Monaco is always a concern with large grids - both in the pits and on the track...

 

[KSaiyu]

The other reason is that once there's no refueling, drivers won't be able to out-strategize another driver and leapfrog in the pits, and will have to pass on the track - a rather silly idea, considering that, with current tyres, we'll still have to pit at least once per race, if not twice.

Speaking of that, is there anything about having to use two compounds in a race carrying on next year?

 

[PeterJB]

It'd have a driveshaft at the front, but it'd still be an open wheeler. Why wouldn't it be an open wheeler?

He may mean like an off-roader, maybe.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Max is turning up the heat on Ferrari.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8030781.stm

 

[Ardius]

Naturally Max is getting a lot of criticsm again for those comments, but people again forget that he doesn't really want to get rid of Ferrari, but he does want them to accept the cap.
Recently, Max has improved in my eyes and I'm happy with where he's going with the sport.
Bernie still annoys me though with his wild suggestions and the usual criticsm.

I doubt Ferrari will ever leave, as much as they threaten, they are too attached to F1 and it would be just as bad for themselves to leave as it would be for F1, in fact, I'd probably say it would damage Ferrari more than it would F1, the sport could survive without them as they aren't the only legendary team in the sport (though obviously one of, if not the most important).

 

[Metar]

They're a league above all others in terms of legends. Even when they sucked for two decades straight, they still had the biggest fanbase.


Montezemolo's complaints, though, are quite legitimate: The two-tier system isn't fairly balanced - so it's not a real choice between two systems that allow you to end up with equally-fast cars. Plus, it's true that if a team was found to use a loophole, or spend more than allowed, it'd be quite an outrage, and quite a fiasco...

 

[Ardius]

True, but no-one expects many teams to enter above the cap, everyone does want to bring costs down, I think I'd side with what Max said about Ferrari questioning why they need to spend such rediculous amounts.

 

[Metar]

A team's choice should be the fastest option, not the most cost-efficient option. If going un-capped is faster, some will do it - and win. However, it isn't...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I just hve to wonder what Ferrari's response to the budget cap would be if they were doing well this year.

 

[senamic]

Why can't the F1 teams and organisers just get along? Why do we have to have business come into it? Oh, it isall about money...... Carry on!

 

[Peter]

I've long since given up trying to make sense of, well ... anything he posts. Ignorance, as they say, is bliss.

That hurts. That's just cold. I'm just a boy, you can't expect me to be easy to understand all the time.

 

[SaberFire]

There's your 4WD F1 Car.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That hurts. That's just cold. I'm just a boy, you can't expect me to be easy to understand all the time.

A lack of age is no excuse for producing posts without any thought put into them.

 

[Roo]

I'm just a boy

So was Sage when he first joined, and look where he is now. Edit: ^ what Do you race? said.

In any case - and majorly off topic - this is the only 4WD F1 car to win a race:

...and these are all the 4WD F1 cars that have been attempted. Only the Cosworth looks radically different, but there's no 2WD version to compare it against.

 

[Metar]

Indeed, the Cosworth might just as well have been a terrible 2WD design. On the rest, we have pretty damning evidence that their rear-driven counterparts were superior.


However, many engineers said that in the '90s, technology advanced enough to make 4WD feasible again. Who knows? With today's weigh minimums, it makes no sense.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I think that's a part of the budget cap idea: teams that elect to run under it will have to choose which benefits they get from it.

 

[Peter]

There's your 4WD F1 Car.

that's what i really meant when i said "car like". It would still be open wheeled.

 

[Metar]

I think that's a part of the budget cap idea: teams that elect to run under it will have to choose which benefits they get from it.

It's not in terms of money that teams probably won't even try "real" (engine-driven) 4WD. It's weight. A KERS-less chassis weighs around 490kg this year. That, plus at least 45kg for the KERS (McLaren's, the lightest, is 25kg. Double the batteries and engines, with a single control unit, for next years), leaves us with 535kg. Even with a rather light 65kg driver, we end up at 600kg - leaving just 20kg for ballast, active-aero actuators, etc - and that's not enough to stick 4WD systems in there.

that's what i really meant when i said "car like". It would still be open wheeled.

In which case, I understand your mistake. The Cosworth's nearly-faired wheels aren't related to the 4WD system - that's simply down to the designer's rather silly notions of aerodynamics. If you look at contemporary machinery, many of the early-'70s cars haven't quite figured that "aerodynamics" thing out, and have all sorts of wedges, almost-fairings (to keep it technically open-wheeled) and snowplow noses.

A 4WD F1 car will look quite the same as it does today, minus the halfshafts between the front wheels - which we'll hardly notice, because of the many suspension parts in that area.

 

[Peter]

Wouldn't a 4WD F1 car be significantly heavier than the regular ones? Wouldn't they have to have more power to make up for the large increase in weight? The front of the car would probably have to be wider as well.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Have you not been reading the post that have been explaining the concept of a 4WD car? I'm sure I read a post somewhere in there that explains everything you just asked.​

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Pardon my double-post, but this - if true, and possible - is news big enough to justify it: everyone's favourite minnows (who are not Minardi), Super Aguri, might be back in 2010.

Super Aguri to return to F1?

06 May 2009

Aguri Suzuki has suggested a possible comeback to Formula One after hearing news of next year's budget cap being imposed by the FIA. The Japanese team, which entered the sport as an effective second Honda team in 2006, departed a year ago as a result of financial implications.

Entering F1 three years ago and running Japan's Takuma Sato, backing for the team eventually fell through after just four races in 2008, leaving both Sato and Anthony Davidson out of drives. Former boss Suzuki was not hiding his interest to make a comeback, however. "If it's physically possible I would certainly like to" he told Reuters.

The squad's best year came in 2007, with 10th and 11th on the grid for the season-opening Australian Grand Prix followed in May by eighth place and a point in the Spain. A dramatic Canadian race saw Takuma pass Fernando Alonso's McLaren in the final stages to seize sixth and claim three more points in the process, leaving the team ninth and ahead of Spyker in the final constructors' championship standings.

With governing body the FIA hoping to increase the Formula One line - up to 13 teams and 26 cars next year - Aguri's comments add one more name to the of potential new entries as he joins USGPE, Lola, iSport and Prodrive in the selection of 2010 candidates.

Given that Honda are no doubt feeling very red-faced after withdrawing only to find that Ross Brawn was onto a good thing, it may be possible that Super Aguri could return to the grid with much more support from Honda than they previously enjoyed. Brawn have proven it's possible to have a reversal of fortunes if you put the hard yards in, and I think their success has no doubt inspired other smaller outfits to take a closer look at the sport when they would have previously balked given theamount of effort the likes of Ferrari, McLaren and Toyota were putting in.

 

[Tired Tyres]

That would be almost as good as Toro Rosso being taken back over by Minardi and winning a race.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That would be almost as good as Toro Rosso being taken back over by Minardi and winning a race.

No, it would be better, because having Minardi back on the grid means we get stuck with Paul Stoddart again. And I'd rather have twenty processional races at Catalunya than see Stoddart back.

 

[Metar]

Wouldn't a 4WD F1 car be significantly heavier than the regular ones? Wouldn't they have to have more power to make up for the large increase in weight? The front of the car would probably have to be wider as well.

The system itself would indeed weigh quite a bit, but modern F1 cars are already about 140kg under the weight-limit - which, minus the weight of an average driver, ends up around 70-65kg to spare. F1 teams could fit a 4WD system within that window of weight, but that system is of dubious handling-benefits - and that weight could be better spent on next year's more powerful KERS systems, ballast to improve handling, or both. Indeed, you are correct though that with KERS and 4WD, it's unlikely that there will be a car still under the weight-minimum - so most teams won't use 4WD.

Have you not been reading the post that have been explaining the concept of a 4WD car? I'm sure I read a post somewhere in there that explains everything you just asked.

Why the aggressiveness? We're not the moderators, and even then, we shouldn't be rude. Young age is no excuse to post nonsense, but this isn't nonsense - a 4WD system weighs more than the regular drivetrain, and not everyone grasps the concept of minimum weighs on the first try.

Given that Honda are no doubt feeling very red-faced after withdrawing only to find that Ross Brawn was onto a good thing, it may be possible that Super Aguri could return to the grid with much more support from Honda than they previously enjoyed. Brawn have proven it's possible to have a reversal of fortunes if you put the hard yards in, and I think their success has no doubt inspired other smaller outfits to take a closer look at the sport when they would have previously balked given theamount of effort the likes of Ferrari, McLaren and Toyota were putting in.

First off, exactly what support does Honda have? Honda's staff and facilities are all sitting nicely in the BrawnGP HQ at Brackley, worrying about their jobs. Their engines are underdeveloped and underpowered - and they haven't made them in a while. And if Aguri were to enter, it would be under the budget-cap - where again, Honda's expertise at burning dollars wouldn't help much.

Second, Brawn put in as much effort into the 2009 car as Ferrari, McLaren and Toyota did - and even more. Since shortly after the RA08's introduction, the Brackley base worked almost exclusively (excepting the mid-season high nose RA08, which didn't take much work and didn't improve things by much) on the RA09/BGP001 - and in fact, Honda's budget was over $300m, close to that of the top teams, yet spent almost exclusively on the 2009 car, instead of a split as with most other teams. Smaller outfits look at it more as a "damn, we should've bought them" - because they could've gotten $300m's worth of development for the symbolic price of a single dollar.

No, it would be better, because having Minardi back on the grid means we get stuck with Paul Stoddart again. And I'd rather have twenty processional races at Catalunya than see Stoddart back.

Minardi wasn't always Stoddart's business...

 

[Ardius]

No, it would be better, because having Minardi back on the grid means we get stuck with Paul Stoddart again. And I'd rather have twenty processional races at Catalunya than see Stoddart back.

Why can't Giancarlo Minardi just buy the rights off Stoddart? That would be preferrable 👍

The current rumours with Nick Wirth are getting interesting, I heard on the F1 rejects podcast that theres a link between him and one of the companies involved with Super Aguri. Now we have Suzuki Aguri himself saying he would be interested in coming back into F1.
Possible return of Super Aguri and Simtek as one team? OMGAWESOME!