450pp Street Car Tuners Club -- Nightly 9:45-12:00 EDT

[grenadeshark]

Usually what happens in an over under like that is that the blue car out brakes and passes into the turn, the red car holds the "normal" line usually re overtaking the blue car at apex, and on exit the blue car dives down the inside to get a run down the straight.

This ^. I get cars on my inside all the time thinking I am taking a corner slow when I am actually making sure my corner exit is as fast as possible. I generally have much more speed coming out of corners then other people online.

People have to understand that just because someone isn't racing the same line as them, they have to expect that they are racing in general. If it looks like they are going off the track. LET THEM. Race the clean race and you will pass them anyways.

 

[grenadeshark]

Chuyler, I watched the video of suzuka. There was definitely some iffy passes going on by you. The passing of the RUF in my opinion was dirty. He had the nose in, you late brake and bumped him out of his line. This is how most passes in this game work, but I think they are always dirty.

If you want to late brake, take the outside line. If you are faster, pass someone on the outside. The second pass wasn't as blatant on the mx-5. But still, he was clearly ahead and there was only one thing that could occur if he ran his line and didn't go off. Contact.

I had an iffy pass of booch in the high speed corner there at the end. But, I was basically neck and neck and had the inside line. At best, we could go two wide. At worst I could slide booch off the track.

I don't know if what I did was considered fair or not. On my screeen, I was with him neck in neck and I just braked earlier then him. But, I also accelerated earlier and I think we did end up bumping very very slightly.

Some cars are easier to launch than others. I recall a race last week when my Porsche had a terrific launch and i got off to a good lead...which i promptly took myself out of the race by going into the dirt.

I think if you tune your first gear, you can get quite a bit out of most cars off the line.

 

[chuyler1]

Chuyler, I watched the video of suzuka. There was definitely some iffy passes going on by you.

Ok. I'll be on tonight for an extended period. I may try bringing up the rear to practice some clean passing moves. A few weeks ago I tried a reverse grid in hopes to promote more passing. It didn't go over so well, but maybe if I just pull off to the side and let others pass I can battle my way to mid-pack by the end of the race.

 

[grenadeshark]

Ok. I'll be on tonight for an extended period. I may try bringing up the rear to practice some clean passing moves. A few weeks ago I tried a reverse grid in hopes to promote more passing. It didn't go over so well, but maybe if I just pull off to the side and let others pass I can battle my way to mid-pack by the end of the race.

So is racing on tonight? If so, what is the theme?

 

[Taisan]

I accidently found this room last night, had a few good races!
I was lucky enough to actually have a rag top to race with the theme, hopefully I can catch some more of this room online

 

[bdubclub]

I think your inside passes were generally very clean. Also, when it comes to passing on the inside of a hairpin turn like that, the person on the inside entering the corner should always have the right away. If someone pulls up along side me going into a turn like that I think I have already lost the position. If I were to turn in on that person it would be my bad, what I try to do in those circumstances is brake a bit earlier, then try to late apex the corner and get a better drive to overtake them on the following straight. When you take a hairpin from the inside your drive out of the corner will generally always be compromised. Just my opinion though, and we know what those are like:idea: Looks like you run a pretty clean room, next time I see you around I am going to hop in so we can do some battling

 

[polizei]

Up for discussion still is my pass attempt at turn 11, the hairpin. I'd like to know if I was in the wrong. In retrospect, I should have waited and could have passed both cars on the straight...but I was itching to catch make back time after the accident.

IMO, you can see the boxter and pink miata taking the racing line, you dove into the inside, and that isn't something one would do in a real car when the consequences are a DNF. It's kind of like crossing the street in heavy traffic, there could have been a gap for you to shoot through if we were staggered a bit more but the pack was very tight.

 

[grenadeshark]

I think your inside passes were generally very clean. Also, when it comes to passing on the inside of a hairpin turn like that, the person on the inside entering the corner should always have the right away. If someone pulls up along side me going into a turn like that I think I have already lost the position. If I were to turn in on that person it would be my bad, what I try to do in those circumstances is brake a bit earlier, then try to late apex the corner and get a better drive to overtake them on the following straight. When you take a hairpin from the inside your drive out of the corner will generally always be compromised. Just my opinion though, and we know what those are like:idea: Looks like you run a pretty clean room, next time I see you around I am going to hop in so we can do some battling

Not trying to start an argument here. But, I will just quote the OLR. https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=111241

"A: The behind driver must take all necessary care and responsibility not to run into an ahead driver."

"C: The ahead driver must not do any malicious or inappropriate braking or slowing. Leading cars MUST NOT EVER 'brake check' the car(s) behind them because they are following too closely. The ahead driver IS entitled to be slower or use longer and earlier braking zones than others. They are also entitled to turn in earlier or later and/or apex earlier or later."


I also found "A: When approaching the turn/apex of turn, the car which "holds" the inner side of turn has entrance-advantage and other driver(s) must refrain from endangering him by his actions." on there. I think that gives me the right on that last turn in Suzuka over the ruf.

B: You must establish substantial overlap with the car ahead before they reach the corner’s turn-in point to have the right to drive up their inside, or to expect them to leave inside room for you. At least the front of your car should be up to the driver’s position in the ahead car. The ahead driver has the right to be fully committed to the racing line of their choice without any interference if there was no substantial overlap before he turned in.

 

[chuyler1]

Great! Drop me a friend request so the room is easy to find next time. I'm on almost every night...if not, then I'll pass the reigns to someone else for the evening. The restrictions change from time to time but the one thing that stays true is 450pp.

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TONIGHT IS HOT HATCH NIGHT!
All entries must have a flip-up tailgate. No RM/RC though (Mugen civic is still a no-go). Car should be classified as a hatchback or wagon, not a coupe or sedan. For example, the VW Golf is a hatchback, while the Mazda RX-7 is not.

Good Examples:
Renault Clio
VW GTI
Mini Cooper
Subaru Impreza Sport Wagon
Volvo Estate Wagon
Audi S3
etc...

 

[sl3ight]

In my opinion if the "ahead" driver is going to use a longer and earlier braking zone, I'm going to pass him on the inside.

 

[chuyler1]

Not trying to start an argument here. But, I will just quote the OLR. https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=111241

"A: The behind driver must take all necessary care and responsibility not to run into an ahead driver."

"C: The ahead driver must not do any malicious or inappropriate braking or slowing. Leading cars MUST NOT EVER 'brake check' the car(s) behind them because they are following too closely. The ahead driver IS entitled to be slower or use longer and earlier braking zones than others. They are also entitled to turn in earlier or later and/or apex earlier or later."

In regards to A, I didn't run into the ahead driver, I snagged his driving line by diving inside. However, when it comes to C, it is clear that the only reason Booch braked early was becuase gShark was in front of him. I should have let them continue their battle and waited for a straight to get around.

In any case, this is why I like running longer races. You get the opportunity to follow a car for a lap and pick the right place to pass...instead of rushing into a dirty pass just to get by and chase down the leader.

 

[grenadeshark]

In regards to A, I didn't run into the ahead driver, I snagged his driving line by diving inside. However, when it comes to C, it is clear that the only reason Booch braked early was becuase gShark was in front of him. I should have let them continue their battle and waited for a straight to get around.

In any case, this is why I like running longer races. You get the opportunity to follow a car for a lap and pick the right place to pass...instead of rushing into a dirty pass just to get by and chase down the leader.

Well according to the OLR as I interpret it, if you are not head to head (your hood isn't next to the driver in the opposing car) going into the turn in of a corner, the person in front has the right to whatever driving line they choose.

Therefore, late braking and "stealing" the inside line is not a viable passing strategy. You absolutely block the driving line of the opposing player and you would actually end up being slower out of the turn then them.

He would have been faster out of the corner than you with that type of inside line heavy braking. It's all over the OLR. There are at least 3-4 rules regarding that exact pass you did.

Here are all the rules that apply to that situation as I see it:


1. The behind driver must take all necessary care and responsibility not to run into an ahead driver.

2. Contacts and collisions must be avoided at all costs.

3. Pushing other cars in turns or pushing them off the track is strictly prohibited.

4. You must establish substantial overlap with the car ahead before they reach the corner’s turn-in point to have the right to drive up their inside, or to expect them to leave inside room for you. At least the front of your car should be up to the driver’s position in the ahead car. The ahead driver has the right to be fully committed to the racing line of their choice without any interference if there was no substantial overlap before he turned in.

5. If sufficient overlap is established before the turn-in point, then the behind driver has the right to sufficient side room. The ahead driver must also leave sufficient side room for the behind driver. This means that each driver has a right to their respective "line", or side of the track, right up to the exit point. Neither driver should squeeze the other toward the inside or outside of the corner during the apex or exit.

6. If an ahead driver has clearly made an error to warrant a passing move, a behind driver may attack their position, with due caution and care, regardless of whether there was any pre-existing overlap. However, the overtaking driver must still avoid contact. Small errors by the ahead driver may not justify a passing move. The ahead driver getting a bit out of shape at times doesn’t give you an automatic right to pass. You still have to judge if their error allows for a safe pass to take place.


As I see it, 1-4 were not headed. Rule 4 is the main one that I see as being violated. 5 is the definition of the rights to make the move you did. 6. There was no clear error in his driving, it was a wide driving line.

 

[chuyler1]

Well I did end up side-by-side for a moment...but I had to continue braking because you [gshark] were in the way. I slowed up and booch came back along side me...

...but anyway, dirty pass. Won't happen again (on purpose at least).

What about the passes at Tsukuba?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWs_YvUmh_o

 

[sl3ight]

Can we use the '08 STI wagon tonight?

Only thinking of this because the majority of hatches are FWD, while the STI and Delta HF are AWD.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

So the Spoon Civic EK is allowable (plz plz plz)

 

[bdubclub]

I dont know how to take your reply shark, but if I am trying to pass someone on the inside, if my front bumper is past say the side mirror, I am going to go for it, and I would expect my competition to do the same. I dont like dirty drivers, but I think if you can pass someone and not slow each others pace too much, it is a good pass regardless if there is some contact or not. If you watch the British Touring Car Championship, there is some rubbing that goes on when people make passes. With that being said............
I dont like when someone uses me as a berm or an extra brake(therefore punting me into the corner). Also if I see someone gaining time on me lap after lap, and they are directly behind me, I wont battle them for the spot(unless it is first of course but would rather let them come up the inside then fall behind them to maybe see where they are picking up time on me. The best way to learn is to follow someone faster than you.

 

[sl3ight]

What it really comes down to is that it's nearly impossible to define what a "clean" pass is. You see it argued in racing all the time, and it's always discussed after the fact.

The best way to stay clean is to know what your car can do, and what you can do with it. Leave the damage on and it's in no ones best interest to run into another car. If someone does, hopefully they learned something about their car and their driving. If they do it repeatedly, kick them out.

 

[chuyler1]

Sure, try out the Spoon Civic. AWD cars are ok too. Just no RC/RM/Rally cars. If you think you have a car that is going to anhiliate the competition, grab a back-up car and switch it up if you win a race by more than a few seconds.

 

[grenadeshark]

I dont know how to take your reply shark, but if I am trying to pass someone on the inside, if my front bumper is past say the side mirror, I am going to go for it, and I would expect my competition to do the same. I dont like dirty drivers, but I think if you can pass someone and not slow each others pace too much, it is a good pass regardless if there is some contact or not. If you watch the British Touring Car Championship, there is some rubbing that goes on when people make passes. With that being said............
I dont like when someone uses me as a berm or an extra brake(therefore punting me into the corner). Also if I see someone gaining time on me lap after lap, and they are directly behind me, I wont battle them for the spot(unless it is first of course but would rather let them come up the inside then fall behind them to maybe see where they are picking up time on me. The best way to learn is to follow someone faster than you.

There is nothing really to take from it. I am just quoting the OLR and applying it to situations. I don't make the rules. Granted, I basically agree with the OLR as a governing set of rules that everyone follows it unilaterally better for everyone in my opinion. Your statement about the side mirror is a perfectly acceptable pass. It's when you aren't next to the other driver that it's a dirty pass.

If you notice the above graphs that s3light posted. It's a perfect example of how you can pass on the inside and you will run into the opposing driver every time. You are running a slower line and blocking their faster line at the same time.

In real life, these things happen ALL the time. I am not arguing that. Racing with full damage on I think is one of the ways of circumventing these situations. If you know that there is a good chance you will run into me and damage your car heavily in the process, you won't pass like that.

Inside passes using lake braking techniques only cause accidents. That's it. Holding a tighter line through a turn then someone else is a whole different story. But, you can't call a slow turn that blocks someone else a legitimate pass. If you were to attempt that line by yourself, your lap times will be slower.

So the question to ask yourself, is if passing at all costs is a fair racing driving technique? I don't believe it is. If you watch that suzuka replay chuyler posted, you will see a "educational course" in what I mean. (specifically the pass attempt @ 9:05)

Watch the Pink s2000 from the rear cam of the RUF. On the last 2 laps. I continually try to take the inside line, but I have to brake into the dirt numerous times to avoid contact. The only contact that I committed during the race was bumping him on straights. At no point, did I block his lane by trying a dirty pass.

At the end on the final high speed turn, I was side by side with him and on the inside. According to the OLR, I had right of way, but I couldn't impede him by pushing him out. I held my line. He held his. He was obviously forced to push outside a bit as we both can't hit the apex at the same time.

That is a clean pass. Late braking into the apex and blocking someone else out is not. A fair example of a late braking pass is one where you are next to the car the whole time and brake at the same rate as him, forcing him to take the outside line.

 

[grenadeshark]

Well I did end up side-by-side for a moment...but I had to continue braking because you [gshark] were in the way. I slowed up and booch came back along side me...

...but anyway, dirty pass. Won't happen again (on purpose at least).

What about the passes at Tsukuba?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWs_YvUmh_o

The pass @ 4:51 was ill-advised. According to the OLR, he had 100% right of way there. There was no obvious mistake by him. You were not next to him at his turn in point. He did run a wide, slow line. But he has every right to. You ran a racing line and were not out of line. I don't think anyone would call you out for that pass.

At the same time, just quoting the OLR. That was not a legitimate passing attempt.

The pass@ 5:15 was legitimate, but you didn't hold your line and you bumped him out. Granted nothing happened because of that. But he has a right to his line and you yours. You went wide of your line (that's racing though). Again, no real harm done.

 

[THE_KARLNESS]

chuyler1

In any case, this is why I like running longer races. You get the opportunity to follow a car for a lap and pick the right place to pass...instead of rushing into a dirty pass just to get by and chase down the leader.

sl3ight

What it really comes down to is that it's nearly impossible to define what a "clean" pass is. You see it argued in racing all the time, and it's always discussed after the fact.

The best way to stay clean is to know what your car can do, and what you can do with it. Leave the damage on and it's in no ones best interest to run into another car. If someone does, hopefully they learned something about their car and their driving. If they do it repeatedly, kick them out.

I agree with both chuyler1 & sl3ight, keeping the damage on full, and increasing the length of the races should, in theory, promote more clean & courteous performances from everyone.

 

[chuyler1]

Inside passes using lake braking techniques only cause accidents. That's it. Holding a tighter line through a turn then someone else is a whole different story. But, you can't call a slow turn that blocks someone else a legitimate pass. If you were to attempt that line by yourself, your lap times will be slower.

My intent was to hold a tighter line...which I did, but I abused the commit line and didn't give Booch enough time to react to me coming inside.

Taking a tighter/slower line to get around someone is often the only way to pass. You obviously wouldn't do it for running hot laps, but it can be the fastest way through 1 section of the track. You sacrifice speed through 1 turn to get in front so you can chase down the next car.

But the fault of mine in this particular case is the commit point. When Booch hit the brakes, I should've already been along side him for my move to be legit. It would've forced him to take a wider line...but he would've had time to see me and adjust. Diving inside is legal, as long as you have established sufficient overlap.

If you don't want someone diving inside on you, whether it be to pass legit or dirty, the best thing to do is adjust your line and shoot for an early apex. Block the inside and the following driver has to go outside.

 

[chuyler1]

The pass @ 4:51 was ill-advised.

I agree. It wasn't my intent to actually pass there. I just wanted to hug my line so I'd be in a position to pass on the straight section ahead. I should've backed off a little.

The pass@ 5:15 was legitimate, but you didn't hold your line and you bumped him out.

It may have been a lag tap. My car was holding the line pretty tight. By the time of contact I had already completed the pass. He should've been able to see 85% of my car in front of him when he turned in tighter and touched my rear quarter panel. Any tighter and I would've been putting two wheels in the grass. After the tap I gave sufficient runoff room for him to continue his wider line. I'd say that's about as clean a pass as you're going to get on that turn.

 

[grenadeshark]

My intent was to hold a tighter line...which I did, but I abused the commit line and didn't give Booch enough time to react to me coming inside.

Taking a tighter/slower line to get around someone is often the only way to pass. You obviously wouldn't do it for running hot laps, but it can be the fastest way through 1 section of the track. You sacrifice speed through 1 turn to get in front so you can chase down the next car.

But the fault of mine in this particular case is the commit point. When Booch hit the brakes, I should've already been along side him for my move to be legit. It would've forced him to take a wider line...but he would've had time to see me and adjust. Diving inside is legal, as long as you have established sufficient overlap.

If you don't want someone diving inside on you, whether it be to pass legit or dirty, the best thing to do is adjust your line and shoot for an early apex. Block the inside and the following driver has to go outside.

I'm not specifically aiming anything I said directly at you chuyler. I was talking cornering passing in general. I have had to adapt my style to what you just said as driving the inside line is the only way online that someone won't attempt to pass you.

 

[chuyler1]

Yep, got it. It's all good. I enjoy the debate. It will help everyone with their driving skills going forward.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

Dear Shark,

I'm going to wreck you.
Happy Friday

Diablo

EDIT: After I wreck you, I will let you back on the track in front on me. Want to make sure I follow the OLR to the letter.

PS: Is this how you left your car this morning??

Or is this the improved version

 

[polizei]

Good discussion, i'm glad we could all be civil and learn from the experience. I know i am guilty of performing the same maneuver. None of us are professional racers, at least that i know of, and we all make mistakes or over/underestimate our cars abilities.

lol @ Diabolic

 

[sl3ight]

I've got three different cars ready for tonight. Should be interesting, can't wait.

 

[chuyler1]

By the way...I generally don't care that people misspronounce my name...since that happens IRL all the time...but my first name is Chris, last name Huyler, pronounced High-ler. C-huyler. I wish I could change my PSN id without starting the game from scratch, but in game you can just call me "Highler" as to not confuse others...or keep calling me shooler. Which ever

 

[diabolicwyvern]

By the way...I generally don't care that people misspronounce my name.

Were you aware that the last terms of use update for PSN disallowed making known in the online world any personal information including Name, DOB and address of said user (including admission by oneself) could be met with penalties up tp banning of the account? I read through (really, I did) the entire thing and about 20 screens in I came across 1 SENTENCE that explained that. Sneaky buggers. Not sure of GTPs OL though