450pp Street Car Tuners Club -- Nightly 9:45-12:00 EDT

  • Thread starter chuyler1
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Last night I was sweating bullets despite having the a/c on. As part of my series we ran 10 consecutive laps at Nurburgring with time progression on. Racing in the dark is intense and that track requires 100% concentration....especially when you have suspension damage.
 
Reminder about tonight...

Same Make/Model Night -- 450pp, Delta HF Integrale '91, SS Tires
All tuning options are available so install whatever you need to make the car fast.

First track will be Deep Forest Reverse. 10 laps. Winner of the race gets to choose the make/model and track for next week's make/model race. After Deep Forest we'll run some other tracks with the car based on lobby votes. Alternatively though, we could run a second race at DFR after people tweak their setups. I'll let you guys decide though.

Next Week

Sunday
Should we go back to 80's night on Sunday or do you want to do vintage lightweights again? I still have some other cars I wouldn't mind trying and I really enjoy the comfort soft tires.

Monday
We've been doing muscle cars, alternating between modern and classic. Any thoughts on switching it up? If not, I guess we can do classic muscle this week since we did modern muscle last week.

Tuesday
We missed rally night due to the update so lets do it this week

Wednesday
Nurburgring night unless you want to do something else

Thursday
Same make/model night (car will be selected by winner tonight)

Friday/Saturday
Open selection unless there are enough participants to pick another theme

I have a very short memory so if someone suggested a theme we have not done yet, remind me so I can add it to the schedule.
 
yestarday was a mess, everyone was pushing and punting in every turn, one guy in particular, i dont remember his name, he was driving on the grass cutting curners, another guy smashed my car on the last turn, and won the next race driving a spoon s2000. hope this never happen again. p.s. i recommend to all of you to get gold in the new seasonal expert event. its tough but i gained more than two millions and the prize cars was insane: corvette C5R '00 audi r8 racecar lemans 01 chaparral 2D Race Car '67 sweet
 
My vote is for vintage lightweights.

AOK you must've had a nasty crash given I pretty much caught up to you at the carousel on one of the races... I was surprised about that.
 
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thanks for the headsup AOk, ill try to do the update tonight and hopefully is possible race with you guys.
miss the vintage lightweight last week so a redo is on my wishlist!!
 
Ok, vintage lightweights it is. I think i'll pick something different to drive. There were tons of options I didn't even explore.
 
esh
No buses!!

That's crap!

I have no problem doing lightweights again. Though for Muscle Car Night we switch it up. Instead of the 500pp, why not do 450pp on sport hards? Might stop the Camaro's from dominating every single race. And will add more excitement too it. I think Modern Muscle/Muscle at 500 is pretty boring.

Edit; If we do drop too 450, I say we keep the minimum kg at 1400. Will give the heavier cars an opportunity
to use power too pull ahead.
 
That sounds fair. For classic muscle night, 450 is do-able but most cars in stock form will have to use a few clicks of power reduction. However changing up the tires won't help the more powerful cars, it will only make things worse I fear. I'd like to hear some other opinions before we drop to SH tires.
 
chuyler1
That sounds fair. For classic muscle night, 450 is do-able but most cars in stock form will have to use a few clicks of power reduction. However changing up the tires won't help the more powerful cars, it will only make things worse I fear. I'd like to hear some other opinions before we drop to SH tires.

I see your point, I have no issue with switching to Softs, the hards were simply a suggestion too add more of a variety in the racing. By variety, I mean difficulty.
 
My Lancia Delta Settings. Except for Eiger, i had the pole on every track. Nic was gaining on me at Deep Forest but i wasnt running super fast every lap.

Chassis Reinforcement
Ballast: 70kg @ +50
Ecu
Power Limiter 100%
Sports Intake Manifold
Sports Exhaust Manifold
Sports Catalytic Converter
High Rpm Turbo
Fully Custom Transmission
Top Speed: 112
Final Gear: 3.726
Twin Plate Clutch
Semi Racing Flywheel
Fully Custom Suspension
0/-10
6.4/8.0
4/4
4/4
3/4
0.5/0.5
-0.10/-0.10
Brakes: 5/5

Max Power: 317hp
Max Torque: 286 ft-lb
Weight: 1420kg
Performance Points: 450
Tires: Sport Soft
 
Thanks chuyler.. Do you find much of a difference between 0/-10 and +5/-5 ?

I was running the latter with everything else stock except the ARB at 3/4 as well but I felt it was still understeering a lot..
 
I think at one point I did try +5/-5 and the front felt a little too squishy. I may try it again. I also tried -10/-15 and didn't like that. In any case, the "10" deficient between front and rear was the key. Going more made the backend to slick. Going less caused the car to push. The car will still understeer if you overheat the outside front, but it behaves properly and you can power through it.
 
My Lancia Delta Settings. Except for Eiger, i had the pole on every track. Nic was gaining on me at Deep Forest but i wasnt running super fast every lap.

Chassis Reinforcement
Ballast: 70kg @ +50
Ecu
Power Limiter 100%
Sports Intake Manifold
Sports Exhaust Manifold
Sports Catalytic Converter
High Rpm Turbo
Fully Custom Transmission
Top Speed: 112
Final Gear: 3.726
Twin Plate Clutch
Semi Racing Flywheel
Fully Custom Suspension
0/-10
6.4/8.0
4/4
4/4
3/4
0.5/0.5
-0.10/-0.10
Brakes: 5/5

Max Power: 317hp
Max Torque: 286 ft-lb
Weight: 1420kg
Performance Points: 450
Tires: Sport Soft

Wow. I've got to learn how to tune. I pretty much just lower the car, change camber, maybe adjust top speed and hit the road. But this is good insight as to why I'm consistently losing a second on every lap.

I did find myself behind by quite a bit after wipeouts on DF, Laguna, and Eiger but then keeping those times within whatever seconds give or take a few tenths. At least, until the later laps when fronts would wear or I would run into traffic.

I was bummed I didn't get to run Tsukuba (I had voted for it). I heard someone saying the wanted to finish a hot lap so I took that time to readjust gearing but didnt hear a call that the race was starting, which makes sense cause everyone was in before I stepped out, and couldn't get back in.

Oh well, was good fun. I really like that car and wouldn't mind seeing it again in the future, minus Laguna..:nervous:
 
I've got a topic of discussion here which is corner rights. I know lag comes into play when cars race close together so if something appears differently from what you experienced just let me know. I also don't mean to single out drivers. I'm trying to make this an educational analysis because some unexpected things happened.

First a review of the GTP OLR...

08: Corner Rights:


A:
When approaching the turn/apex of turn, the car which "holds" the inner side of turn has entrance-advantage and other driver(s) must refrain from endangering him by his actions.

B:
You must establish substantial overlap with the car ahead before they reach the corner’s turn-in point to have the right to drive up their inside, or to expect them to leave inside room for you. At least the front of your car should be up to the driver’s position in the ahead car. The ahead driver has the right to be fully committed to the racing line of their choice without any interference if there was no substantial overlap before he turned in.

C:
If sufficient overlap is established before the turn-in point, then the behind driver has the right to sufficient side room. The ahead driver must also leave sufficient side room for the behind driver. This means that each driver has a right to their respective "line", or side of the track, right up to the exit point. Neither driver should squeeze the other toward the inside or outside of the corner during the apex or exit.

D:
If an ahead driver has clearly made an error to warrant a passing move, a behind driver may attack their position, with due caution and care, regardless of whether there was any pre-existing overlap. However, the overtaking driver must still avoid contact. Small errors by the ahead driver may not justify a passing move. The ahead driver getting a bit out of shape at times doesn’t give you an automatic right to pass. You still have to judge if their error allows for a safe pass to take place.

E:
Drivers who are using PS2/PS3 controller MUST make additional effort in driving due to the fact they can't use side-view, and their perception of the other cars is thereby limited - extreme caution while maneuvering is required. If you are using a controller, you are required to set buttons up for side views as "I didn't see you." is not an excuse if you collide with another driver when racing.

Next the video...



0:45 - I come in contact with fatrabbit. He missed the apex by about 2 car lengths and was carving the outside of the track. I hit the apex got on the gas in an attempt to track out but leave 1 to 1.5 car widths on the outside of the track. Exiting the turn, fatrab moved toward the center of the track instead of hugging the outside. He may not have seen me coming up but I'm not sure how much more track I really should have given him to not cause contact. I gave him the amount of room I would need on the outside to stay on track. If you watch the cars in front, they all track out to the rumble strip. I don't see this as a violation of rule "C", but I guess I need to anticipate drivers taking up more track than I typically use.

0:50 - I make a pass on xfz and brake hard into the next turn and get punted. I believe this was my fault. My car floats to the outside of the track rather than holding the inside line so I didn't give xfz any room to use his typical braking point.

1:00 - xfz makes an executive decision not to complete the pass. He was pretty far inside the track and I'm not sure holding the inside of the track would have worked there. When I saw him brake early I used the whole track for the turn. One can reference this when discussing the last item below.

2:06 - Booch and I enter turn 1. I take the inside rather slow. It was clear he was going to miss the first apex so I let my car coast into it. There were two bumps but neither were aggressive and I wasn't using Booch to complete the turn. I held the inside of the turn and did not push him out the least bit. I thought it was a well executed clean pass but you can discuss otherwise.

2:18 - Moments later we arrive at turn 2 side by side. I do not consider this a well executed pass on Booch's part. Unlike my pass on turn 1, he doesn't come anywhere close to hitting the apex and essentially pushed me out of the turn leaving me no track to continue on my line. It is possible for 2 cars to run separate lines through a turn...but the inside car must run a slower pace to avoid pushing the outside car off the track. I'd say this is a violation of rule "C".

2:39 - I gave Booch a little taste of his own medicine. This was a Kyle Busch move if there ever was one. Just a "I can do that too if that's how you want to race". However I 2nd guessed myself and decided to back off so I could attempt another clean pass.

3:10 - Clean pass after getting a good run off the corkscrew

3:51 - Clean pass of Diablo, but Cuju stayed inside to protect the inside line. I bumped him by accident and made sure not to benefit from the contact.

4:08 - Cujo goes wide and mows some grass. I thought it was going to slow him down so I didn't leave very much room for him to re-enter the track. As a result he bumped me getting back on his line. On the next turn, I stayed inside and left a good car length for him to track out if he was still there. Same thing I did for fatrabbit.

6:55 - Watching BTK, he makes a clean draft pass overtaking Nic for the lead, but running wide into turn 1, Nic does a great job gaining back the position with a little over under.

8:10 - Watching Nic, there is quite a bit of fender rubbing. Not sure what to make of this. I'd say Nic should have left a little more room on that 2nd to last turn. Later in the race you can see BTK is a little wild on this turn though. Nic may have actually helped him here.

11:00 - I make a clean pass to overtake Nic on the inside. Then we fought for drafting rights. Not sure if this constitutes as me pushing him out. I simply maintained a line that left exactly 1 car length to the right of me.

12:03 - I make sufficient overlap on the last lap going into turn 1 on the outside. AOK effectively pushes me off the track. Not cool there. That is a clear violation of rule "C" above.

12:47 - I get a good draft on the straight before the elbow. Typically I would not attempt a pass here but it was really my last chance to do so because I knew I wasn't going to get a good run before the corkscrew...and I was a little bitter from getting pushed out on turn 1. I nosed ahead before the braking point. I hit the brakes early to anticipate the possibility of running 2 wide but then AOK turns into me before the apex. Now if I were on the outside, I most likely would've braked much earlier and ducked behind, or tried to maintain a line 1 car length away from the apex. Maybe he did that and lag caused us to make contact, I don't know.

In anycase, I waited for him at the top of the corkscrew to show it wasn't my intention to push him out. Corner rights rule "A" states that I had the right to the turn, but one could argue there is no way I could complete the pass without violating rule "C" on that turn. After the contact I used the entire track to complete the turn but I broke traction when he hit me so I don't really know whether I could've kept it inside.
 
esh
I was bummed I didn't get to run Tsukuba (I had voted for it). I heard someone saying the wanted to finish a hot lap so I took that time to readjust gearing but didnt hear a call that the race was starting, which makes sense cause everyone was in before I stepped out, and couldn't get back in.

Oh man, I'm sorry. I was basically waiting at the first turn to see BTK go by and then I started it. I think he said "OK you can start it".

Funny thing about Tsukuba, I didn't touch my gears the entire night. I had the 6 speed custom tranny installed and I only used 5 of the 6 gears, but my car was still very quick. I guess the ballast I added was a double edged sword. It allowed the back end to rotate a little more AND it allowed me to get a higher peak HP at 450pp. One note about my tune though...I shifted at 7,000 rpm on every shift despite having a 7,500 rpm redline and plenty of revs beyond redline. Peak power was at about 6,500 I think so I basically kept the rpms between 6-7,000 the entire race.
 
Actually, Nic and I were running an exceptionally clean race. Nic had got beside me heading into the corkscrew, and I lifted in order too not create a big crash. When I did that AOK, comes out of nowhere and slides in and takes the inside. No contact, but it forced me too have too swing wide and let you past chuyler.

I was really dissappointed with my lag at Deep Forest, I had absolutely no idea that I was glitching until I saw diablo FLY off track, and then things made sense. I lifted and let Nic and Diabolic by, too make it easier on them. I was gaining a good .6 every lap, with Nic just staying behind me, not really pressuring me. If I had not lagged, I truly think we would have caught you, and it would've been one hell of a race too the finish.
 
You absolutely would've caught me at DF. I was running slow trying to conserve tires. At least .5 of the .6 you were gaining was on turn 1. I have two methods of taking that turn. Balls to the wall drifting all 4 tires, or Safety Sally keeping all 4 white. The former being at least .5 seconds quicker. Once I had a 2+ second lead and I was out of drafting distance I figured it would be best to save my tires for any late race action I might encounter so I ran clean laps and kept the tires out of the red as much as I could. One place it really pays to keep the tires white is the turn before the tunnel. Hug the inside and apply light braking before you even see the tunnel. Then quickly downshift and get on the gas. It feels slower, but if you try it in practice mode, it is much faster than cooking the outside tire and running wide as you enter the tunnel.

Two cars working together can definitely close a gap on this track. SohnVonStig did it a few weeks ago on hatchback night.

However I think the draft may be a little less powerful with this new update. I wasn't getting the slingshot I expected. I like it though. At Tsukuba I had to work for several laps to get around WiiFreak (video will be uploaded soon as it was a tight battle)

Another thing about the update. When I exit to the pits to check cars, I don't lose my qualifying position. I wanted to start at the back for Laguna but it put me on the pole even though I exited all the way to the lobby to change the number of laps.
 
A few photos from last night...

Mazda%20Raceway%20Laguna%20Seca_4.jpg


Mazda%20Raceway%20Laguna%20Seca_5.jpg


Mazda%20Raceway%20Laguna%20Seca_6.jpg
 
There is a third way too enter turn 1, but it does require a loose race car under braking. If you add a super aggressive brake, you can force the car too slide into that turn, and not burn any tire, it simply slides the tire heating it slightly, and right at the apex, floor it. The AWD, will pull the car out of the slide forward. Just as fast as drifting it, and does save tires. I was using a 50/50 Differential setup, in order to save tires. Would push more the longer the race, but that's why you have the brake setup too oversteer.
 
Thanks for the analysis chuyler. Will check out the video when I get home from work.

chuyler won last night, but I think he passed the selection rights to Nic-KL given he chose this week?

EDIT: disappointed that my delta did not make the highlight photos though! :P
 
Yes, Nic came in 2nd (I came in 1st) so he gets to pick next week's same make/model car from the premium lot. Until everyone picks a car, no one will get to repeat. So if Nic and I place #1 and #2 next week, the selection goes over to the 3rd place finisher. So fight for every inch of asphalt.

BTK, what you described is likely what I was doing. The tires don't always turn red, but it can be risky because if you don't judge your speed right, you will slide wide and hit the wall. I call it a drift because I am inducing slight oversteer rather than allowing the car to track smoothly. I ran the default differential which I think was set to 30/70 and I had that 70kg of weight in the rear to help with rotation. I'm not sure if I ran a lap close to my qualifying during the race but I can check. I'm uploading the Tsukuba race now so maybe I'll upload that one afterward.
 
Video from Tsukuba

WiiFreak and I battled it out at the beginning but I had more straight line power. I think we were both running pretty clean lines though. Once the battle was over, I switched cameras to catch some other people in action.

 
2:06 - Booch and I enter turn 1. I take the inside rather slow. It was clear he was going to miss the first apex so I let my car coast into it. There were two bumps but neither were aggressive and I wasn't using Booch to complete the turn. I held the inside of the turn and did not push him out the least bit. I thought it was a well executed clean pass but you can discuss otherwise.

As i usually do, i was attempting a slow-in, fast-out line but you snuck up inside and blocked my line, which is why i didn't even feel bad about pushing you out on turn 2.

chuyler
2:18 - Moments later we arrive at turn 2 side by side. I do not consider this a well executed pass on Booch's part. Unlike my pass on turn 1, he doesn't come anywhere close to hitting the apex and essentially pushed me out of the turn leaving me no track to continue on my line. It is possible for 2 cars to run separate lines through a turn...but the inside car must run a slower pace to avoid pushing the outside car off the track. I'd say this is a violation of rule "C".


Basically i did the same thing that you did to me in turn 1, but maybe more aggressive since i was pretty pissed off at this point from people using me as a brake zone and getting pushed off the racing line a number of times. In turn 1 i was clearly in front and you sneak in, make contact unsettle me sending me into the dirt, if you didn't expect some payback in turn 2, that is your bad!

chuyler
2:39 - I gave Booch a little taste of his own medicine. This was a Kyle Busch move if there ever was one. Just a "I can do that too if that's how you want to race". However I 2nd guessed myself and decided to back off so I could attempt another clean pass.

Yeah, that was just a douchebag move.

It's basically the same thing that happened on Suzuki turn 7 or 8 a while back. There is a line you would want to take in a real race, then there is the line people take in GT5. I tried to take the more realistic line while you took the GT5 line.

like so:
Racinglines.jpg


I'm trying to clip both apexs and keep my speed up for a good exit into corner 2, not saying your line is wrong, and it works in the game, but i was ahead and you should have yielded. However, it is very difficult to take the racing line in this game. There is no "look-to-apex" feature that allows you to see more of the corner. Instead we are all stuck looking straight ahead through a shoebox, which is pretty crappy for racing and makes it not only hard to hit apexes correctly, it also makes it a lot harder to see other cars.
 
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I felt my car was handling extremely well for a front engine awd car, for my tuning, i added as much ballast as possible and shoved it all in the rear giving me nearly 50/50 weight distribution. I already had weight reduction #2 installed from a previous race series and i couldn't get any hp without ballast, so i thought i might as well put it to use!
 
Understandable. Your car may have had more understeer than me making your entry speed a lot slower. Later in the video I am hitting that first apex at about 55-60 mph but when I was passing you I was only going 50.

It was never my initial intention to steal your line. I had just bump drafted you so you could catch up. I didn't want to be behind you for the brake zone for fear of punting so I stayed toward the inside and tried to match speed down to the turn in. At some point I realized there was no way you were going to get in for that first apex so I took it. We didn't make contact until after that (unless your replay shows otherwise). In retrospect, you were probably just going for a single-apex line.

For reference...here's how to double-apex that turn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_bWOdY6mbU
 
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yes, more of a single apex line. not double.
you had more speed than me all over the track. I had the wing on and was way down on you in power.

Amazing video too btw!
 
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