50 dead at Orlando club shooting.

  • Thread starter Dennisch
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A2K78
As for Australia (the same which can be said about Japan) you do understand like most places crimes go either the under or unreported..
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What do you think we are, cavemen? "Oh you know this guy was shot, but no-one really cared about him too much so we're just gonna toss him in the trash and forget about it. Like nothin' ever happened right?"

Your understanding of Australia:
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The majority of our population:
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I seriously do not understand how you came to the conclusion of the fact that we 'don't document deaths very well'.
 
Snaeper
To be honest, and this is coming from someone who wants to buy multiple types of AR's, just because that gun has a different firing mechanism etc.

Functionally its the same as an AR-15.
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Functionally speaking, yes. However, it's not produced by the same company, nor does it have the same general appearance.

AR-15
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SiG Sauer MCX Carbine (Weapon used by the shooter)
8.png


They do use the same style receiver and the same ammo/magazines, but they do not look alike.
 
I see most still don't know the difference between real assault weapons and ones that are semi-auto that look like their counterparts. AR15 is the semi auto version of a full auto or burst fire M16. Full auto versions are still NFA items and not legal for everyday over the counter sales. To obtain a full auto version you have to have ATF approval, pay an excise tax, the weapon cannot be newer than a 1986 year model, cannot buy full auto parts without proof of ownership of an existing NFA item. This makes the cost of such items over the 20K dollar range. Mostly for wealthy private collectors or used on movie sets.
 
mister dog
Sounds a bit like you're mentioning this as some sort of justification for what motivated this fruitcake to go in there and shoot up the place.

Doesn't matter if it's a gay nightclub, a concert hall, an office party, an airport lobby, a magazine headquarter, a shopping center, a metro, bus, airplane or train though. You are an infidel and because of that you are a legitimate target for these Islamic extremists wherever you are.
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But by what you saying if an alleged ISIS extremist/convert does such yet is supposedly following what his book of religion states and shouting Allahu Akbar in faith of that religion then how is he an extremist and how is it not a religious attack? Is he committing the offence based on radicalism or devotion?

The question to be asked is if modern peaceful/cultural muslims who are genuine good and nice people yet do not do such things are they typically civilised non extreme or just not fully following what their religion states to do or working towards the greater cause? I guess such brings much debate and argument and I mean no offence to anyone here. Yet the whole attack is religious based just as it was in France or anywhere else.

Media will not go and condemn the religion, especially as it is the largest growing one within the USA today. If anything Obama has been pro Islam and anti Christian on many issues and on many of his comments. Various news networks often will call the attacker a "shooter" and remove the religious basis replacing it as extremist.

Simple reason, we have this current movement pushing this idea that we all worship the same god and even this is being embraced by the current pope, world leaders (inc Bush in the past) and by celebrities during iconic events. It all going towards the whole world equality and new world order agenda.

Not expecting people to agree at all but just how I see things.
 
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Mr Latte
But by what you saying if an alleged ISIS extremist/convert being Islamic, does such yet is supposedly following what his book of religion states and shouting Allahu Akbar in faith of that religion then how is he an extremist and how is it not a religious attack? Is he committing the offence based on radicalism or devotion?

The question to be asked is if modern peaceful/cultural muslims who are genuine good and nice people yet do not do such things are they non extreme or just not fully following what their religion states to do or working towards the greater cause? I guess such brings much debate and argument and I mean no offence to anyone here. Yet the whole attack is religious based just as it was in France or anywhere else.
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Yeah one could say the extremist ones are indeed following what their holy book dictates. But as with every holy book it's full of cryptic verses and depending on your agenda you can get whatever justification out of it.

Islam is in serious need of a reformation like we had 500 years ago. Remember that before that time we were executing people and burning 'witches' too just like they are doing now, and only in the last century the church stopped dominating people's lives for good and for worse.

But even saying so among the Muslim extremist crowd can get you killed nowadays, so they have a long road ahead of them still to get to that point.
 
Mr Latte
The question to be asked is if modern peaceful/cultural Muslims who are genuine good and nice people yet do not do such things are they non extreme or just not fully following what their religion states to do or working towards the greater cause?
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It's more than a bit of a stretch to insinuate that Islam is a religion that teaches that terrorism is the ultimate goal - despite having never fully read the Koran, I'm aware of why people are critical of the "religion of peace" stance - it doesn't exactly promote equality in society. Similarly, the same could be said for Christianity - I can't directly cross-reference and compare specific teachings dealing with say, homosexuality, but it's safe to say the Bible doesn't exactly promote peace and equality from cover to cover.

You'll get the same things with any long-standing religious teachings. Their messages are often highly contradictory and it's up to the person reading it to deduce what they want from it, but I'm pretty sure no religious teachings say "walk into a nightclub and gun down masses of people" - you can't blame a religion for that. It's ultimately the deranged nutter who tries to use it as justification for extreme actions where the problem lies.
 
ECGadget
The statement in itself would be laughable if it was not so sad that 49 people were murdered at his hand. He goes from someone who had a dealing between himself and God, to someone who must now answer for the murders and pain he caused to others. Interesting way for him to get to heaven.
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You're muslim, right? Let's be clear that I'm only talking about these "Suddenly Mujahadeen" people. The Islamic terror/kidnapping group in the Phillippines operated so that they could eventually die as martyrs. They were all thugs and criminals, so their conclusion was that martyrdom through jihad was the only way they could get into heaven. It's plausible that the Orlando killer felt similarly after being a gay alcohol drinker that suddenly became radicalized. Isn't this a terrible mindset?
 
Sanji Himura
http://www.wftv.com/news/local/gun-...says-mateen-passed-background-check/340126409
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This is really not a "gotcha". No it's not an AR-15 but don't pretend like it's some dramatically different rifle that can't be remotely compared to an AR-15. It's an AR style semi-auto rifle chambered in 5.56 from the factory that accepts standard AR lower receivers and magazines. It's not mechanically identical but the discussion doesn't hinge on it being one specific kind of rifle of which there are dozens of similar variants.

"The upper is backwards compatible with any mil-spec AR lower, allowing you to upgrade your existing AR platform to the SIG MCX"

"The SIG MCX features a familiar, AR-style ambidextrous selector, bolt release, magazine release and charging handle."

You'd have a point if he used a handgun and the media went on about rifles but this is ridiculous. It's an AR-15 styled rifle chambered in the same round, operated the same way, and functionally identical in this context.
 
@mister dog
So is the extremist in your view the devote follower or to be more accurate accepting the submission the faith demands putting it first before reason or acting civilised. If what he/she is doing can be found in the religious texts? For example if specific lifestyles of people or indeed religions of others are mentioned with reference to violent acts towards them, can that really be taken as cryptic? Surely the highest people within the faith understand and translate into action what is meant/expected if indeed it is not clear enough or is the religious text always so cryptic in such serious matters as murdering others? Or has the faith an issue with extremist leaders which then the faith itself seems to do nothing to try and remove. The same faith that has many muslim countries yet how many of their own people are they trying to save the lives of and comfort them in their own lands? I find that strange many of them very wealthy yet thier own people they seem to do liitle to help and Europe/USA etc take action even against opposition within their land to do so. Yet again from a religious stand point it does go towards their goals yes/ no?

If a so called christian does similar or goes to attack an abortion type clinic etc. They perhaps could be called extremist for in fact they are not portraying what their book of faith says to do. Even though their god is against what the ones targetted are perhaps doing. It is not for the christian to take violent action towards others and if anything actually the opposite of love others etc. Yet ironic that in such instance you will find the media jumping all over his/her religion. Be it about baking a cake for gay couple or other it is clear that staunch old school strict christianity is under attack. More liberal or modern churches seem to accept many things against what the religion says so it is all a mess really or is it part of something larger?

How long do you think before Jews will have their temple in Israel, worship on a friday, the muslims on a saturday and the christians on a Sunday. Is this part of the plan for the world equality goal?

Acts of terror like this one only further the push towards chrislam happening and faiths combining into acceptable differences but the same god under the brolly of equality for those that want to be lets say religious. The roman catholic church is responsible for many things in the past, even today it has the wealth to help rid poverty but what happens. All that is needed is remove or alter the christian perspective of jesus to form the bond towards the same god goal and this is what has been happening for some time. The jews wont mind, most christian churches dont and heck its obvious that it is already in motion.

The problem is the so called muslim extremist groups that may or may not be the devoted ones are playing right into the hands of the global agenda. So they themselves will continue to be separated by the media from the religion they kill others for. Instead their actions actually go towards the issues of gun control, further security, loss of cival rights all bringing even greater sympathy from the general public to accept changes in law giving them even greater control over our lives and privacy.
 
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Regardless of what rifle he used, why would anyone ever need an assault rifle, aside from having it in a collection? In realistic scenarios, you will never need the amount of firepower an assault rifle has. If you're going hunting, a shotgun or a hunting rifle would fit the bill perfectly. For home defense, a pistol or shotgun will work as well. For concealed carry, a pistol works there. An assault rifle would only ever need to be used in military settings.
 
Omnis
You're muslim, right? Let's be clear that I'm only talking about these "Suddenly Mujahadeen" people. The Islamic terror/kidnapping group in the Phillippines operated so that they could eventually die as martyrs. They were all thugs and criminals, so their conclusion was that martyrdom through jihad was the only way they could get into heaven. It's plausible that the Orlando killer felt similarly after being a gay alcohol drinker that suddenly became radicalized. Isn't this a terrible mindset?
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Yes I am, and I know :)
And I wholeheartedly agree. Let's put aside any unknowns/knowns about Islam or how it is portrayed and focus on these facts at hand.

If someone thinks that the way into heaven is Jihad (Jihad as in war Jihad) then they are very very misguided. Being Ramadhan there are some Islamic radio stations on the airwaves in the UK and the night after this happened they were talking about this and how can someone think that this is Islam and go ahead and commit those acts. These, as you quite nicely put it "Suddenly Mujahadeen" seem to be taking what they know best, adding a 'religious' spin on it, and take that as their way to heaven.
The mindset of these people is indeed horrific. We're sitting in the 21st century. We're sitting with a religion that above all promoted the protection of others. Muslim or not. Gay or not. American or Arab. White or black. One of the core beliefs (when you study Islam further) is that each person is judged by God and God alone. For us, we do not judge someone on what they do. Our task as Muslims is only to spread the word of Islam in a soft manner. Through actions, through love and understanding. No more. We can't go around killing gay folk because Islam says homosexuality is a sin. That isn't our life to take. Every single life belongs to God and God alone (according to Islam). Every person is responsible for what they do. And ultimately the choice is theirs and the consequences are also theirs. But this is exactly the opposite of what these people do. They decide that they are being the devote worshippers of God by reading a verse in the Quran, taking no time in understanding the nature of the verse and then carrying out the instruction of the verse with no sense of morality, or understanding or humanity. What kind of Islam is that? And what kind of a person falls into that trap? What they are doing is putting on blinkers and ignoring everything outside of the one verse. Because that's the one that will allow them to satisfy their rage and anger. What about 'Whomsoever commits an act of murder it is as though he has killed all of mankind'? They don't see that. What were we talking about again? Either way, I agree with you that the mindset is terrible. And it saddens me as a human being that people still think in this way across the globe. And it saddens me as a Muslim that Islam is used in this way to do the opposite of what it says.
 
Lots of stories floating around that the wife knew the attack was coming, had driven him to the club and was there when he bought the guns.
 
@ECGadget interesting how you put it and in a fair democratic way and so reasonable, like you say it is the 21st century.

I take it then however you have no problem openly acknowledging that Jews won a war in 1948 to gain their land rightfully like every other nation to do the same in history and cant really be ocupping anyones land other than what they fought for and won?

Would you as a muslim object the building of a jewish temple on the mount. Its only a building and after-all you have yours so it would be the fair democtatic thing to do? Can you tell people why Obama calls ISIS ISIL and the reference to this land and the same comparison made in the christian bible of the significance of Islamic State or is it the true biblical borders of ancient Israel?

Bottom line it all goes back to religion....
 
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Obelisk
It won't help.
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So what would?
Honestly, what would you propose?

Obelisk
Functionally speaking, yes. However, it's not produced by the same company, nor does it have the same general appearance.

AR-15
oracle.jpg


SiG Sauer MCX Carbine (Weapon used by the shooter)
8.png


They do use the same style receiver and the same ammo/magazines, but they do not look alike.
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Which one is safer?


Johnnypenso
Lots of stories floating around that the wife knew the attack was coming, had driven him to the club and was there when he bought the guns.
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So far two persons aware of his intentions...
His Ex wife
And one of his coworkers...

Thats pretty sad that neither one of them push the authority to keep tabs on him... Although i dont like that type of 'big brother' watch but when countless lives are at risk, it should be mandatory...
 
Obelisk
Functionally speaking, yes. However, it's not produced by the same company, nor does it have the same general appearance.

AR-15
oracle.jpg


SiG Sauer MCX Carbine (Weapon used by the shooter)
8.png


They do use the same style receiver and the same ammo/magazines, but they do not look alike.
Click to expand...
The point is, the people want them banned dont care because they dont see the difference. All they see is a scary black gun. They see no logic.
 
Mr Latte
@ECGadget interesting how you put it and in a fair democratic way, like you say it is the 21st century.

I take it then however you have no problem openly acknowledging that Jews won a war in 1948 to gain their land rightfully like every other nation to do the same in history and cant really be ocupping anyones land?
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The lands of Israel/Palestine are a whole different topic, dating back over a hundred years. Israel are illegally occupying land in areas, but this is a different debate. On the same token, the land that was given to the Jewish people may have been given unfairly (or fairly) and had everyone (all sides) stuck to what was agreed we may not have the situations we have now. Do the Jews deserve a place to live? Yes. Of course. They are humans and many of them wonderful. But the acts their governments have commited are not acceptable acts. Because under that token we would be saying that the Germans invaded France and gained that land rightfully. Which they didn't. But, like I said that is a whole different topic with complexities that I do not know. However, the way forward is most certainly NOT the way forward that is happening right now. Not with Israeli forces. Not with Hamas forces. We are human beings. We should be capable of rational discussions, such as the ones many of us have here.


On a side note: imagine if we were in charge of various countries...
 
CTznOfTime
So what would?
Honestly, what would you propose?



Which one is safer?
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For all intents and purposes, neither is safer.

To be honest, I feel like removing the assault rifles/assault-style rifles might cut down the accessibility to such dangerous weaponry and powerful ammo. Or maybe chamber everyrhing in .22 LR which isn't as lethal.
 
All the major US news agencies are now reporting Mateen was a closeted gay, frequenting several gay clubs for years, even his own wife and father accusing him of the fact.

Perhaps his internal conflicts got the better of him, and were resolved externally by claiming fealty to ISIS and gunning down a building full of gays to expiate his own sins?
 
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