6th Gen Chevrolet Camaro: 2017 ZL1, Z/28

[niky]

Also, the memes have arrived.

I know you didn't make the meme, but it should be noted, the only time the Camaro hasn't outsold the Mustang in the past several years is this year, in which a brand-new Mustang debuted early to replace the already-heavily facelifted Mustang that was still losing (slightly) in sales against a really, really old Camaro.

I just posted in his thread and I hope he reads it. It pains me to watch his face and see how uncomfortable and unconfident he is in his situation, long before the crash. The look on his face as he attempts to steer more and more while already having exceeded front tire grip just makes me cringe. This is an example of pure lack of driving skill. Anybody who manages to understeer into anything while driving quickly should be embarrassed, frankly, but hopefully they learn from their mistake. I have a feeling Patrick George is not the sort of driving enthusiast who will learn from this mishap. He's a journalist, not a driver. If you can't drive and talk at the same time then don't do it, simple as that. I don't talk while I drive because in that situation I have more important things to concentrate on.

I finally watched the video a while ago and, dear Gandhi, the man is already having a hard time talking and driving at the same time minutes before the crash... and he just keeps on going.

There should be a school for driving video reviews... when to talk. When to drive. When to shut the hell up and concentrate on your driving. It's pretty obvious that he got lost in that last spiel, and only realized at the end of the sentence that he was way past his braking point. He was looking off into the horizon rather than looking out for the apex.

And... what do you know? He almost did drive off into the clouds.

 

[berettagt88]

I know you didn't make the meme, but it should be noted, the only time the Camaro hasn't outsold the Mustang in the past several years is this year, in which a brand-new Mustang debuted early to replace the already-heavily facelifted Mustang that was still losing (slightly) in sales against a really, really old Camaro.



I finally watched the video a while ago and, dear Gandhi, the man is already having a hard time talking and driving at the same time minutes before the crash... and he just keeps on going.

There should be a school for driving video reviews... when to talk. When to drive. When to shut the hell up and concentrate on your driving. It's pretty obvious that he got lost in that last spiel, and only realized at the end of the sentence that he was way past his braking point. He was looking off into the horizon rather than looking out for the apex.

And... what do you know? He almost did drive off into the clouds.

I wonder why they didn't invite Motor Trend instead, they drive and test alot of cars

 

[niky]

I wonder why they didn't invite Motor Trend instead, they drive and test alot of cars

Not knowing who got invited to that particular drive... the print rags often get preferential placement, because they're a big part of a manufacturer's marketing push, and because of the two to four week lead time needed for print.

Chances are, they got something better than the guys who got the babysitter tour around the racetrack.... though looking through the Facebook posts, apparently the running group was going at a pretty fast clip.

 

[Cano]

Not knowing who got invited to that particular drive... the print rags often get preferential placement, because they're a big part of a manufacturer's marketing push, and because of the two to four week lead time needed for print.

Chances are, they got something better than the guys who got the babysitter tour around the racetrack.... though looking through the Facebook posts, apparently the running group was going at a pretty fast clip.

Yes on both. As far as I can tell from Facebook posts and stuff, Hot Rod ands Motor Trend got the keys and drove the Camaro on the streets and stuff.

And my boss went to the babysitted track tour, and he told me he was able to put the Camaro trough 3/4 of its paces, which for a 300 hp car, is pretty fast. Sez the car is light years more nimble than the previous car.

 

[catamount39]

It did use the ATS/CTS chassis as a base, which means very good things.

 

[Zenith]

Seems odd that the new generation looks so similar to the last model. None of the other generations of Camaro or Mustang look much like their predecessors. It's not like the 5th gen was a slam dunk in terms of design.

 

[YSSMAN]

I guess in my mind, the early version of the 4th generation isn't all that removed from the 3rd generation car when it comes to style cues. Although its certainly round by comparison, the square headlights, large tail lights, emphasis on the rear liftback, and a general long look to the car... It isn't exactly revolutionary. Certainly didn't help that the chassis underneath it didn't change all that much, either. And I guess, while I'm thinking about it, the leap from the late 2nd generation cars to the early 3rd generation one wasn't a massive leap forward, either.

For the Mustang, I guess it kinda depends. There is certainly a thread that you can tie together from the early Fox cars all the way to the late New Edge models at least in terms of overall shape. The thing with Ford is that they've been consistent with style themes in each generation, unlike Chevrolet, where its been more of a "HEY LETS TRY THIS."

 

[05XR8]

We'll have to see about this
http://m.motoring.com.au/news/2015/sports/chevrolet/camaro/chevrolet-reveals-mk6-camaro-51196

However, the 2016 Camaro, which goes on sale in the US in LT, RS and SS trim levels in the fourth quarter of this year and will be joined by a redesigned convertible next year, could go on sale in Australia even before Holden's last V8-powered Commodore ceases production at the end of 2017.

GM's direct rival for Ford's Mustang -- which officially goes on sale for the first time in Australia in December, priced from under $45,000 -- is the likeliest candidate to be the 'global V8 sports car' that Holden has promised to release in coming years.

If the Camaro joins the Mustang here, the classic homegrown Commodore-Falcon sports sedan battle will be effectively replaced by the same American muscle car match seen in the US, where the new Mustang has outsold the older Mk5 Camaro so far this year.

 

[McLaren]

I'm surprised GM lets them get anything. The Corvette junk from a while back would have been enough to set fire to an entire publication 20 years ago. The hits must be enough on Jalopnik that GM realizes it'd hurt them more not to have them there.

Or someone on Jalopnik would write a long, butt-hurt article about GM & twist it as the victims. And it'd work because a ton of Jalopnik's followers are looney & would backlash again GM like brainwashed children.

 

[Organ-Donor]

Uninspiring. Pretty disappointed. I didn't really care for the previous model either but this seems just like another facelift of the facelift. New Mustang looks a lot better and the Challenger too...just wish the Challenger went on a serious diet.

 

[MHPALA]

Jalopnik in a nutshell.

On Jalopnik! Where the content quality of Car Throttle Memes meet the Journalistic Integrity of Gawker Media!

Let some crappy blogger tell you how the car feels like he's Ayrton Senna!

Watch him totally abuse the point of paced parade drive like a 16 year old behind the wheel of his dad's BMW!

See him understeer with his arms crossed like a soccer mom understeering on black ice! Turns out a V6 Camaro is far above this guy's skill level even on a track with marked braking zones and a pace setting car.

Then finish it off with a totally crap and self serving apology.

TL;DR: Salt.

Oh yeah, the car. It looks like a Charger after facial liposuction, but at least it'll be fun to drive.

That guy has had bad luck with Camaros. He got caught in Virginia speeding in a ZL1. He had to spend 3 days in jail .

 

[Slash]

Z/28 Render

I know you didn't make the meme, but it should be noted, the only time the Camaro hasn't outsold the Mustang in the past several years is this year, in which a brand-new Mustang debuted early to replace the already-heavily facelifted Mustang that was still losing (slightly) in sales against a really, really old Camaro.



I finally watched the video a while ago and, dear Gandhi, the man is already having a hard time talking and driving at the same time minutes before the crash... and he just keeps on going.

There should be a school for driving video reviews... when to talk. When to drive. When to shut the hell up and concentrate on your driving. It's pretty obvious that he got lost in that last spiel, and only realized at the end of the sentence that he was way past his braking point. He was looking off into the horizon rather than looking out for the apex.

And... what do you know? He almost did drive off into the clouds.

The Mustang has nearly always outsold the Camaro.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/warnin...aro-vs-mustang-sales-numbers-in-living-color/

 

[Keef]

Not knowing who got invited to that particular drive... the print rags often get preferential placement, because they're a big part of a manufacturer's marketing push, and because of the two to four week lead time needed for print.

Chances are, they got something better than the guys who got the babysitter tour around the racetrack.... though looking through the Facebook posts, apparently the running group was going at a pretty fast clip.

And speaking of which, Jalopnik is nothing more than an opinion blog anyway. Actual journalistic material is hard to come by. DeMuro is probably the best at that - at least he does long-term reviews of interesting cars - and he writes specifically to be funny and outrageous.

 

[niky]

The Mustang has nearly always outsold the Camaro.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/warnin...aro-vs-mustang-sales-numbers-in-living-color/

Note, I did say "past several years."

Since "Bumblebee's" debut, the Camaro has outsold the Mustang, as shown in the graph on that very page.

It's only in the last year that it has started to lose out... and the Camaro is overdue for a refresh, anyway.

And speaking of which, Jalopnik is nothing more than an opinion blog anyway. Actual journalistic material is hard to come by. DeMuro is probably the best at that - at least he does long-term reviews of interesting cars - and he writes specifically to be funny and outrageous.

At least in DeMuro's case, there's no pretense at being more than comedic relief.

 

[Legro]

Note, I did say "past several years."

Since "Bumblebee's" debut, the Camaro has outsold the Mustang, as shown in the graph on that very page.

It's only in the last year that it has started to lose out... and the Camaro is overdue for a refresh, anyway.

By the graphs, it seems that 2012 alone was a close win for the Mustang, but otherwise the Camaro has clearly outsold the Mustang, from 2010 to 2013.

 

[Blackbird.]

New Mustang looks a lot better and the Challenger too...just wish the Challenger went on a serious diet.

Nail on the head for me.

 

[berettagt88]

Z/28 Render

That looks amazing that color is awesome!

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Uninspiring. Pretty disappointed. I didn't really care for the previous model either but this seems just like another facelift of the facelift. New Mustang looks a lot better and the Challenger too...just wish the Challenger went on a serious diet.

You had me until you said the Challenger part...I mean for some reason the Hellcat in person and photo looks sleeker than any other version. But still really bloated and boxy compared to the Camaro and more so the Mustang.


I don't like the front of the new Camaro with the more massive grill as if it tried to morph into an Audi or Lexus but at the same time I just don't see how the Challenger is better looking. That's just me I guess.

 

[Tornado]

The Challenger is bloated and boxy, but the Challenger is still an unabashedly retro design with actual (for the most part. The slab sided look can't really be helped with modern aerodynamic requirements and its size) correct proportions for its detailing. The Challenger also actually owns up to the size that it is, compared to the outgoing Camaro. The new Mustang is a better design than the Challenger, and probably an even better job at working classic Mustang elements into a modern shape than they did in 1999 (as opposed to being such a slave to the 1967 model), but at this point they are getting close to chasing after different markets. Whether that continues to pan out for Chrysler remains to be seen, but there still seems to be a market for the thing right now and I'm sure it costs Chrysler far less money to make than Ford just spent.


The Camaro is a mobile gun emplacement, filled with overly retro (and undeservedly revered) design cues that are exaggerated to the point of parody with no concern of whether they cause the same issues they did the first time around. It's the same ham-fisted 1990s concept car that the first one was except now the edges have been blunted; and I can see how that would turn people off if they were sick of the outgoing car already.

 

[nascarfan1400]

I like it

 

[ShobThaBob]

I know you didn't make the meme, but it should be noted, the only time the Camaro hasn't outsold the Mustang in the past several years is this year, in which a brand-new Mustang debuted early to replace the already-heavily facelifted Mustang that was still losing (slightly) in sales against a really, really old Camaro.

That isn't even remotely close to being true. The past few years of the 5th gen camaro being on sale are the only times in the past 25 years that the Camaro has outsold the Mustang. At no point during the 4th gen F body production (LT1 and LS1) did the Camaro outsell the Mustang.

E - didn't see that this had already been addressed. And why shouldn't it have been? If it hadn't been outselling something that had already been on sale for 4 years with 100hp less in either engine choices, the Camaro would have been an abject failure.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

That isn't even remotely close to being true. The past few years of the 5th gen camaro being on sale are the only times in the past 25 years that the Camaro has outsold the Mustang. At no point during the 4th gen F body production (LT1 and LS1) did the Camaro outsell the Mustang.

E - didn't see that this had already been addressed. And why shouldn't it have been? If it hadn't been outselling something that had already been on sale for 4 years with 100hp less in either engine choices, the Camaro would have been an abject failure.

Where does he talk about the 4th gen. When I read in the last several years I believe he is comparing the 5th gen cars to on another and nothing older than that.

 

[ShobThaBob]

To which I said - and why shouldn't it have? It was a new design which offered 100hp over the main engine choices in the Mustang which was already 5 years old. If it hadn't outsold it handily, it would've been just as much of a failure as the previous generations.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

To which I said - and why shouldn't it have? It was a new design which offered 100hp over the main engine choices in the Mustang which was already 5 years old. If it hadn't outsold it handily, it would've been just as much of a failure as the previous generations.

To be honest your comment doesn't make much sense when you bring in the 4th gen and seems more like some far off non-needed extrapolation. Also just cause it was newer at the time or release doesn't mean it should have automatically been outselling. And really the fact that the Mustang had major face lifts during the last gen and even a new engine and was still being outsold while looking more refreshed and refined than the aging Camaro proves why that meme makes no sense nor does the idea of calling this a new Gen Camaro (most likely due to the new platform it's on than anything else). He was addressing how silly and untrue that meme was, I still have yet to see what you claim he says is untrue. More so I see your ideas on why you don't think there is anything for GM to be happy about on the Marketing/Sales end.

 

[ShobThaBob]

I guess you missed the part where I edited it and acknowledged that what you're pointing out had already been discussed.

If a new product aimed at a market segment that specific can't outsell a model which has been through 5 model years without a refresh or significant overhaul, then it's an abject failure.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I guess you missed the part where I edited it and acknowledged that what you're pointing out had already been discussed.

If a new product aimed at a market segment that specific can't outsell a model which has been through 5 model years without a refresh or significant overhaul, then it's an abject failure.

No I saw that, what I don't see is where what I've just said has anything to do with your comment. My point stands that the if not refreshed Camaro outsells a updated mustang with a Coyote V8 and face lift...then how does that meme (as @niky ) pointed out have any relevance to this thread. More so how does you saying he isn't correct become true? Look all I'm asking for is a concise point to what you're saying not some obscure objection each post to just push this off to the side.

So let me break down what I'm saying since there is a disconnect.

One, not sure how Niky is wrong nor does your orignal post really provide anything to dismiss what he said
Two, if the fifth gen wasn't a success due to the Mustang being dated (grasping at straws really), then how does a much more updated 2012 Mustang still get outsold by a hardly updated (if at all) Camaro 2012 not come into the equation?

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

No I saw that, what I don't see is where what I've just said has anything to do with your comment. My point stands that the if not refreshed Camaro outsells a updated mustang with a Coyote V8 and face lift...then how does that meme (as @niky ) pointed out have any relevance to this thread. More so how does you saying he isn't correct become true? Look all I'm asking for is a concise point to what you're saying not some obscure objection each post to just push this off to the side.

So let me break down what I'm saying since there is a disconnect.

One, not sure how Niky is wrong nor does your orignal post really provide anything to dismiss what he said
Two, if the fifth gen wasn't a success due to the Mustang being dated (grasping at straws really), then how does a much more updated 2012 Mustang still get outsold by a hardly updated (if at all) Camaro 2012 not come into the equation?

The 5th Gen Camaro is a more attractive car than any 2005-2014 Mustang. Mustang guys will always buy Mustangs, and Camaro guys will always buy Camaros, so really it's the neutral parties that decide the success or failure of a pony car. The cars are so closely matched that the only thing that really separates them is their aesthetic design. The 5th Gen Camaro was a remarkably un-diluted production version of a very well-received concept car. The 5th Gen outsold the Mustang because it looked better.

The problem is that the new Mustang looks better than the new Camaro. I anticipate the Camaro not doing nearly as well in sells compared to the Mustang and 5th Gen.

 

[ShobThaBob]

One, not sure how Niky is wrong nor does your orignal post really provide anything to dismiss what he said
Two, if the fifth gen wasn't a success due to the Mustang being dated (grasping at straws really), then how does a much more updated 2012 Mustang still get outsold by a hardly updated (if at all) Camaro 2012 not come into the equation?

Because the Mustang was playing desperate catch up. And, for all intents and purposes, it caught up quite well. In the years following the 3.7 and 5.0 additions, the Camaro and Mustang were neck and neck saleswise.

 

[05XR8]

The Camaro will sell high. its all about the coupe and the powertrain. Bowtie lovers will still snatch them up.

 

[YSSMAN]

Because the Mustang was playing desperate catch up. And, for all intents and purposes, it caught up quite well. In the years following the 3.7 and 5.0 additions, the Camaro and Mustang were neck and neck saleswise.

A trend that will likely continue, as I really don't see a specific advantage to owning either one aside from the usual brand preferences. The Camaro has the better chassis, Mustang a bit more forward-thinking in terms of style and global sales. If there's a single advantage to the Mustang, its that they're dirt cheap - something I hope GM worked out on the Camaro to keep the car available to the lower end of the market. Granted, getting a nearly 450 BHP car for under $35k is still insane.