A Quantum Leap

[Tornado]

Good point about GT5s shortcomings, blocky shadows, framerate problems, rubbish sound, dreadful A spec, loading times, poor quality standard cars etc..

Did they fix them or did they think "sod em, concentrate on DLC"?

They certainly made a lot more patches that fixed things than they made DLC.

Those numbers alone doesn't give the complete picture. The average cost for developing a PS2 title was $5-10 million. Already there GT5 was roughly ten times as expensive to develop as the average PS2 game.

Which is probably why they released the paid demo, which was the second best selling game on the system.

The development of the PS3 was costly and they even had to sell the console at a loss for the first two years after its release, because the components were so expensive to produce. Some estimates that they lost $300 for every unit sold. If each copy of GT5 brought back $20 of that it doesn't even compensate for 10% of the loss, they had to sell 15 games at that profit rate to each console before breaking even.

Which is why Sony sells other games than Gran Turismo, and collects licencing fees for games other people sell, and collects licencing fees for Blu Ray discs.

And it's hardly fair when the race for both isn't even technically over.

How much money do you think Sony gets from a game that you can buy new for $13?

 

[MeanElf]

Because i love the franchise and don't want to see it going to crap because of people happy just to put up with a mess of a game.

I want to see it back to its former glory as unquestionably the best racer/driving game/sim/collection on any console or even any platform.

Fair enough that you love the series, but why slap the guy making it possible, especially when you have no proof that this is what he's doing...do you think that's a kind of incentive?

 

[Imari]

Fair enough that you love the series, but why slap the guy making it possible, especially when you have no proof that this is what he's doing...do you think that's a kind of incentive?

If Kaz gets to take responsibility for all the great things about GT, I think it's only fair that he take responsibility for all the things wrong with it as well. That's the pleasure and curse of being at the top.

 

[MeanElf]

If Kaz gets to take responsibility for all the great things about GT, I think it's only fair that he take responsibility for all the things wrong with it as well. That's the pleasure and curse of being at the top.

Yes, but there are ways of doing it...

 

[Dodzzz]

It'll be an empty container that's a billion times more complicated than Zelda for which, no one is forcing you to buy any DLC if you don't want to, and you'll be able to play the game to completion without it.

But I'm sure making Zelda in that time was not less difficult or time consuming than making GT in the current time and technology.

And of course I'm not forced to buy DLCs.. but the DLC trend makes me worry that developers might start giving less effort on making full and finished game knowing that they could just add more content later with even more profit...

 

[eran0004]

Which is probably why they released the paid demo, which was the second best selling game on the system.

It's probably 50/50 between that and the lengthy development process.

Which is why Sony sells other games than Gran Turismo, and collects licencing fees for games other people sell, and collects licencing fees for Blu Ray discs.

And what do you want to say with that?

 

[J-KiLLA24]

Because i love the franchise and don't want to see it going to crap because of people happy just to put up with a mess of a game.

I want to see it back to its former glory as unquestionably the best racer/driving game/sim/collection on any console or even any platform.

Well going about it the way you did certainly isn't going to help.

 

[McLOVIN5489]

If Kaz gets to take responsibility for all the great things about GT, I think it's only fair that he take responsibility for all the things wrong with it as well. That's the pleasure and curse of being at the top.

Not many great things have come out of ANY of your keyboards...let's be honest

 

[Imari]

Not many great things have come out of ANY of your keyboards...let's be honest

Excellent. I'm glad that you've decided to judge the lives of an ENTIRE forum of people to be worthless compared to Kaz.

You're right. We could never be as awesome as him. Me, I've never done anything worthwhile in my life. I'm just thankful that Kaz lets me play his amazing game given that I'm such a total loser that I could never do anything great.

You got any more sweeping abusive generalisations, or is that your lot for today?

 

[Tornado]

And what do you want to say with that?

I dunno. What did you want to say with comparing the profit from single Gran Turismo game to the total losses Sony incurred on the PS3 in the first few years in a discussion about why DLC is a necessity in modern game design?

Not many great things have come out of ANY of your keyboards...let's be honest

Logically, this applies to yourself as well.

 

[phil_75]

Well going about it the way you did certainly isn't going to help.

If you want to stay blind to GTs various issues and the DLC direction it is heading and just lap it up be my guest.

When it all turns to crap remember its people like you who made it that way!

 

[J-KiLLA24]

If you want to stay blind to GTs various issues and the DLC direction it is heading and just lap it up be my guest.

When it all turns to crap remember its people like you who made it that way!

I am well aware of all the shortcomings and issues that GT had/has, however as Mean Elf stated before, there's a way of addressing you're complaints.

Responding the way you did and making wild accusations in this case is not helping, your just making yourself look bad.

 

[Tornado]

If you want to stay blind to GTs various issues and the DLC direction it is heading and just lap it up be my guest.

Again, count the DLC patch releases vs. the releases that actually fixed things.

 

[Imari]

Again, count the DLC patch releases vs. the releases that actually fixed things.

Not to be too negative, but also the patch releases that broke things.

And I'm always a bit wary when people point out how many additions GT5 had by patch. Yeah, it was really a lot, but then GT5 1.01 was a fairly awful game. No seasonals, no OCD, no PP, no engine limiters or ballast, no mechanical damage far more limited online options, different physics on and offlline, bigger frame rate issues, and so on.

Without those patches, GT5 would be a fairly awful game (in my opinion, obviously. I'm sure there's someone that will retort that GT5 1.01 was lovely.) Instead we remember it for what it is now, a reasonably complete experience by today's standards.

 

[another_jakhole]

Not to be too negative, but also the patch releases that broke things.

And I'm always a bit wary when people point out how many additions GT5 had by patch. Yeah, it was really a lot, but then GT5 1.01 was a fairly awful game. No seasonals, no OCD, no PP, no engine limiters or ballast, no mechanical damage far more limited online options, different physics on and offlline, bigger frame rate issues, and so on.

Without those patches, GT5 would be a fairly awful game (in my opinion, obviously. I'm sure there's someone that will retort that GT5 1.01 was lovely.) Instead we remember it for what it is now, a reasonably complete experience by today's standards.

It's greed that's mostly in question about what you replied to. Either way, there are some things in the game that the patches added or took away and fixed or "broke". You can't expect a perfect division of always being able to execute something the way it was intended to be. Maybe that's why video games seem to take longer to the developer than they expected? That's beside the point.

GT5 1.01 would be bland imo compared to what we have now and I wouldn't have stuck with it for as long as I have. Maybe a year at most. Just saying.

Time to Placeholder: Number of posts in a thread before some aspect of the GT6 demo is claimed to be "placeholder".

GT5 1.01 was a placeholder for GT5 2.1...what is it now? You're seriously reaching for any kind of "good" point. I don't understand how your post up there was related to anything. It's all over the place.

I also noticed the vast growth between 2,3,4,and five.

Vast growth? In sales, you mean? Sales have been dropping since they peaked in GT3. Unless GT5 sells another million copies between now and when the PS3 gets discontinued (not likely with GT6 about to come out) that trend isn't turning around any time soon. Notice that the second release on each console has traditionally sold worse than the first.

GT sells a ton of copies, far more than almost any other game. It's still going downhill.

Vast growth might not have been the best way to put. Vast differences in size and growth, maybe?

It's downhill from 14 and 11 million. I'm aware that 10 million is still a hell of a lot to sell, hence why I put that last paragraph in.

But say GT6 goes down another million, like GT3->GT4. So GT6 sells 9 million. That's still pretty good.

Then assume GT7 comes out on PS4. Duplicate the jump from GT3->GT5. Minus 4 million. GT7 sells 5 million. That's not too good at all. It's still really good for most games, but for something with the pedigree of GT it's basically a giant flop.

Not saying that this is what's going to happen. Those are essentially made up numbers. It could as easily turn around and go the other way with one really good version. But at the moment it's going downhill, and without an effort to change anything I don't see any reason why that wouldn't continue.



They're not making PS2s any more. When exactly would you call it over?

I'd say it's more or less over when the next version comes out. I'd be very surprised if GT5 sold even as much as another 500,000 copies after GT6/PS4 releases.

GT3 and GT4 are still being sold. I don't get how you can say that the sales of GT5 (released almost three years ago) can be compared to 9-12 year old games EVEN WHEN Sony has only just stopped shipping PS2's at the start of this year. When Sony stops selling PS3's, we can get back to this subject. Oh, and GT3 was bundled like all hell. If only they don't take into account those copies that are sold in bundles, there could be a much more straightforward "analysis" on how well games sell.

 

[McLOVIN5489]

Excellent. I'm glad that you've decided to judge the lives of an ENTIRE forum of people to be worthless compared to Kaz.

You're right. We could never be as awesome as him. Me, I've never done anything worthwhile in my life. I'm just thankful that Kaz lets me play his amazing game given that I'm such a total loser that I could never do anything great.

You got any more sweeping abusive generalisations, or is that your lot for today?

Great things- positive things as it relates to you stating that he has to take the good with the bad...... You have given nothing but criticism.... Now that I am clear, you're free to rebute me 👍

 

[Tornado]

Not to be too negative, but also the patch releases that broke things.

And I'm always a bit wary when people point out how many additions GT5 had by patch. Yeah, it was really a lot, but then GT5 1.01 was a fairly awful game. No seasonals, no OCD, no PP, no engine limiters or ballast, no mechanical damage far more limited online options, different physics on and offlline, bigger frame rate issues, and so on.

Without those patches, GT5 would be a fairly awful game (in my opinion, obviously. I'm sure there's someone that will retort that GT5 1.01 was lovely.) Instead we remember it for what it is now, a reasonably complete experience by today's standards.

It was a fairly awful game. They also did an lot to make it better, and regardless of the arguments of "well, it should have been better to start" or "they also broke stuff in the meantime," the fact remains that there was only one thing they released as DLC that made the game more feature complete.


Route X.


Compared to dozens of things that they did as patches (for free) that made the game more feature complete in the meantime, between (and alongside) the other DLC releases. So there is no justification that I can think of that "more DLC" means "PD is going to focus near-exclusively on the DLC, and to hell with the game quality."

 

[another_jakhole]

Compared to dozens of things that they did as patches (for free) that made the game more feature complete in the meantime, between (and alongside) the other DLC releases. So there is no justification that I can think of that "more DLC" means "PD is going to focus near-exclusively on the DLC, and to hell with the game quality."

In addition, it appears that they've made it an issue to re-evaluate the way they managed GT5's implementation of DLC. At least, that's what it sounds like when Taku Imasaki reiterates what Kaz mentioned (he said it at or after the 15th Anniversary event).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yJOHK9aArAI&t=38

 

[Imari]

GT5 1.01 was a placeholder for GT5 2.1...what is it now? You're seriously reaching for any kind of "good" point. I don't understand how your post up there was related to anything. It's all over the place.

You're bringing my signature that specifically refers to the GT6 demo into a discussion about GT5 patches? Good one.

GT3 and GT4 are still being sold. I don't get how you can say that the sales of GT5 (released almost three years ago) can be compared to 9-12 year old games EVEN WHEN Sony has only just stopped shipping PS2's at the start of this year. When Sony stops selling PS3's, we can get back to this subject. Oh, and GT3 was bundled like all hell. If only they don't take into account those copies that are sold in bundles, there could be a much more straightforward "analysis" on how well games sell.

By this logic, you'll never be able to do an analysis because they might sell one more game next week.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to look at the numbers when the sales per week/month/pick-your-period have dropped to a level where they're insubstantial compared to the total number of sales. If GT3 sold 14 millions copies, and they're now selling 10 copies a week I don't see a problem with using the 14 million as a fairly solid number.

Basically, I don't see any evidence that the sales figures for GT3 and GT4 are going to change in any way that would invalidate any conclusions drawn from them. GT5...maybe. But after GT6 comes out I'd again be surprised if GT5 sold enough more copies to invalidate any conclusions drawn from the numbers.

You can disagree with this, statistics are always a bit hand-wavy. Lies, damned lies and statistics, after all. Maybe you think that the difference between 14.3 million and 14.4 million copies changes things. That's fine. But there's not much discussion to be had if everything constantly has to be reanalysed in light of the last month of sales.

 

[Zer0]

I'd say it's more or less over when the next version comes out. I'd be very surprised if GT5 sold even as much as another 500,000 copies after GT6/PS4 releases.

Then prepare to be surpised as are these people now:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7166864#post7166864
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5429520#post5429520

GT5 sales are doing better than GT4 in the same period of time, and GT4 is still selling even today. I can predict safely that GT5 at its end life will be the second best selling GT.

 

[Imari]

Then prepare to be surpised as are these people now:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7166864#post7166864
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5429520#post5429520

GT5 sales are doing better than GT4 in the same period of time, and GT4 is still selling even today. I can predict safely that GT5 at its end life will be the second best selling GT.

So GT4 had sold ~11.2 million as of Dec 2010, which is essentially the release of GT5. As of March 2013 it's sold ~11.7 million. So it's selling optimistically 200k a year.

Which on one hand is pretty impressive for a nearly ten year old game. On the other hand, it's going up by ~1.5% per year since the release of GT5.

Clearly, some of you think that's a significant number. I don't. I don't think another 1.5% of sales per year is enough to invalidate any conclusions that could be drawn from the current numbers, but there can be no rational discussion if people disagree on the validity of the data that's being used.

So yes, in one sense you're right, I might be surprised when GT5 manages to sell another 500k copies over the next three years. It may or may not overtake GT4, but it's going to be by a nose if it does. You can knock a million off the current GT4 numbers, and GT4 and GT5 are neck and neck. I think the best you can say is that GT5 managed to hold station against GT4, and that's probably giving the benefit of the doubt.

 

[phil_75]

GT5 1.01 was a placeholder for GT5 2.1...what is it now? You're seriously reaching for any kind of "good" point. I don't understand how your post up there was related to anything. It's all over the place.

LMAO!

The default GTplanet Kaz defence answer!

Placeholder! Looooooool!

GT 1. 01 was an absolute joke and you know it!

I'll also add, i was willing to give PD the benefit of the doubt, but then we hear standards are still in game (PS3 is 7/8 years old now and they're still using PS2 assets)
then we hear sounds are more than likely not getting sorted or at best will just be juggled around remixs of what is already there.
And to top it all off, they ignore the biggest issues but seem proud to announce they are making a "quantum leap" in DLC!??


WTF!?

Can your little brains understand why some of us, especially us who have been there since GT1, are a little frustrated with the direction it is going?
You might not care if the game bombs but i do!

 

[MeanElf]

If you want to stay blind to GTs various issues and the DLC direction it is heading and just lap it up be my guest.

When it all turns to crap remember its people like you who made it that way!

Once more, for clarity (as you don't seem to be getting what we're saying.)

We do not know which type of DLC model PD will use so how can that be bad by default?

And as for your second point - I rather think it's attitudes like yours that can turn a game into something less than what it could be. I doubt very much you'd do your best if the game was yours, to continue to improve it when all you see to hear is impolite, ill-informed and just plain rude remarks from people who couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag...

If on the other hand you formulated your grievances with some thought, then PD might actually listen to you and do so happily.

 

[machschnel]

And as for your second point - I rather think it's attitudes like yours that can turn a game into something less than what it could be. I doubt very much you'd do your best if the game was yours, to continue to improve it when all you see to hear is impolite, ill-informed and just plain rude remarks from people who couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag...

If on the other hand you formulated your grievances with some thought, then PD might actually listen to you and do so happily.

Could you show us all how to formulate our grievances with some thought? You didn't seem to apply much thought to your above "grievance" with phil_75. Reads rather negative.

If on the other hand you formulated your grievances with some thought, then other users might actually listen to you and do so happily.

 

[JohnScoonsBeard]

Lighten up all internet warriors.

When I read some of the arguements from the virtual executive boardroom of GT Towers they remind me of a certain Mr Logic in the immature adult comic "Viz" for those of us who remember when it was funny. For the rest read Mr Spock with spots.

 

[vrrm]

Perhaps a deep breath or two might help bring a little respect to the mind.

Works both ways of course.

I happily purchase each GT* and most of the DLC. I buy this stuff in good faith. I both admire and respect the work PD does

In my small world of fairness though it seems to me that if I buy a car then I own it. It's mine until I sell it or decide to trash it (it's a purchase not a license). Seems to therefore that PD should respect my patronage by ensuring that car - together with any associated mods/tunes - appears in GT6,7,8 and on.

What I find unfair about the GT series is that with every new edition I have to go through the bloody licence process again. I lose all of my cars and their tunes and all the rest of it.

I don't mind a simulator that evolves, I'm happy to evolve along with it, but I'm not satisfied with a development approach that has me return to nappies with each new edition.

PD's creative process is development through evolution, yet it repeatedly wipes out its clients driving evolution in the same community. This lands on me as unwise. And yes, a long way from respect for its core income source.

It's not as though fixing this would be hard, coders e.g. microsoft have been doing personal data retention through version migration for years.

Cheers.

 

[MeanElf]

...If on the other hand you formulated your grievances with some thought, then other users might actually listen to you and do so happily.

I tried that in the preceeding answers to him - so that didn't really work so well, as he kept hammering on about the same thing. In exasperation, I admit to being more blunt with my last one.

Nothing more to add than that.

Perhaps a deep breath or two might help bring a little respect to the mind...

Good point.

 

[MustangManiac]

In my small world of fairness though it seems to me that if I buy a car then I own it. It's mine until I sell it or decide to trash it (it's a purchase not a license). Seems to therefore that PD should respect my patronage by ensuring that car - together with any associated mods/tunes - appears in GT6,7,8 and on.

What would the financial incentive be for a company to operate like this? What would the purpose be of you even buying or playing the new game if you were able to transfer your completed game data from one to the other thereby completing the new game without even playing it? Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one. I suppose if all you are interested in is playing online it may be ok, but I think the purpose of the game is to actually play and earn your way through it. Oh, and in the software world, like it or not, you own nothing, it is all licensed.

 

[Spagetti69]

I don't care much for DLC tracks because I've found in the past it just fragments the online Comunity.

I'd rather see a quantum leap in the vanilla game. Thinking about it GT5 had Quantum leap with past cars showing up in the future. GT6 isn't the first quantum leap GT

 

[Zer0]

So GT4 had sold ~11.2 million as of Dec 2010, which is essentially the release of GT5. As of March 2013 it's sold ~11.7 million. So it's selling optimistically 200k a year.

Which on one hand is pretty impressive for a nearly ten year old game. On the other hand, it's going up by ~1.5% per year since the release of GT5.

Clearly, some of you think that's a significant number. I don't. I don't think another 1.5% of sales per year is enough to invalidate any conclusions that could be drawn from the current numbers, but there can be no rational discussion if people disagree on the validity of the data that's being used.

So yes, in one sense you're right, I might be surprised when GT5 manages to sell another 500k copies over the next three years. It may or may not overtake GT4, but it's going to be by a nose if it does. You can knock a million off the current GT4 numbers, and GT4 and GT5 are neck and neck. I think the best you can say is that GT5 managed to hold station against GT4, and that's probably giving the benefit of the doubt.

If the second best selling title of the series means something is not being downhill. GT3 was a peak, a rarity in the GT sales trend of about 10-11M per title, not an average to consider.

As I said GT5 sales are still very good and are far from being stagnant to a point comparable to how are the GT4 sales now nearly ten years after the launch. You will see your 500k incremental in much less time than you think, and is another safe prediction.

For the record:

GT5:
12/2010 - 5.5 million
2/2011 - 6.37 million
12/2011 - 7.3 million
9/2012 - 9 million
3/2013 - 10.66 million
2014 - ?
2015 - ??

GT4:
5/2005 - 6.25 million
2006 - 7.6 million
2007 - ?
2008 - 9.92 million
2009 - 10.83 million
2010 - 11.19 million
2011 - ?
2012 - ?
2013 - 11.73 million