Abortion

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I saw this story and was surprised to see there's a charge called "intentional homicide to an unborn child" in the US. We have a similar law in the UK but figured with Roe that there wouldn't be something like that over there, and when looking further saw there's at least added penalties for injuring a pregnant person, if not a designation of foetal homicide in some liberal states.
 
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I saw this story and was surprised to see there's a charge called "intentional homicide to an unborn child" in the US. We have a similar law in the UK but figured with Roe that there wouldn't be something like that over there, and when looking further saw there's at least added penalties for injuring a pregnant person, if not a designation of foetal homicide in some liberal states.
Laws against injuring a pregnant person to the point where they lose the pregnancy were one of the things cited by the draft majority opinion overturning roe. They go back a long way in US history. Inuring a pregnant person to the point where they lose the pregnancy is a grave offense, it can be an absolutely staggering loss, and should be recognized as severe within the law. Obviously it goes well beyond the physical trauma of losing the pregnancy to include major psychological harm.

The laws recognizing this harm were (arguably) misconstrued to suggest that they covered voluntary loss of pregnancy rather than forcible loss of pregnancy. It, of course, makes all the difference in the world. About as much difference as voluntary sex and forcible sex.
 
Laws against injuring a pregnant person to the point where they lose the pregnancy were one of the things cited by the draft majority opinion overturning roe. They go back a long way in US history. Inuring a pregnant person to the point where they lose the pregnancy is a grave offense, it can be an absolutely staggering loss, and should be recognized as severe within the law. Obviously it goes well beyond the physical trauma of losing the pregnancy to include major psychological harm.

The laws recognizing this harm were (arguably) misconstrued to suggest that they covered voluntary loss of pregnancy rather than forcible loss of pregnancy. It, of course, makes all the difference in the world. About as much difference as voluntary sex and forcible sex.
I can understand the rationale behind foetal homicide, but why should the law be harsher on those who assault a pregnant person vs those who aren't pregnant? Why should a pregnant person be considered to be more susceptible to psychological damage than, say, someone who suffers from agoraphobia or schizophrenia? Or when considering physical damage, why should it be recognised in law over someone whose pre-existing physical condition worsens as a result of the stress/physical injury from the assault?

Maybe there are laws that address these issues and I haven't found them, but I'm genuinely curious.
 
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I can understand the rationale behind foetal homicide, but why should the law be harsher on those who assault a pregnant person vs those who aren't pregnant? Why should a pregnant person be considered to be more susceptible to psychological damage than, say, someone who suffers from agoraphobia or schizoprenia? Or when considering physical damage, why should it be recognised in law over someone whose pre-existing physical condition worsens as a result of the stress/physical injury from the assault?

Maybe there are laws that address these issues and I haven't found them, but I'm genuinely curious.
I'm not sure that injuring a pregnant woman and causing the loss of the pregnancy is necessarily more injurious than what is possible with other people. But it is, justly, recognized as serious. When tallying the harm that was done, the loss of a pregnancy represents more harm. Similarly for anything else. If someone does not have a finger, that finger cannot be injured. But when tallying the harm done to an individual, inuring their finger represents more harm.

In general, when a crime is committed against a particularly vulnerable member of society, that crime gives the judicial system additional insight into the criminal's mindset, and may justifiably carry with it a harsher penalty. Kicking a fit man in the stomach does not represent the same mental state as kicking a pregnant woman in the stomach, simply because the attacker had much more clear expectation of causing wide ranging harm.
 
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I'm not sure that injuring a pregnant woman and causing the loss of the pregnancy is necessarily more injurious than what is possible with other people. But it is, justly, recognized as serious. When tallying the harm that was done, the loss of a pregnancy represents more harm. Similarly for anything else. If someone does not have a finger, that finger cannot be injured. But when tallying the harm done to an individual, inuring their finger represents more harm.


In general, when a crime is committed against a particularly vulnerable member of society, that crime gives the judicial system additional insight into the criminal's mindset, and may justifiably carry with it a harsher penalty. Kicking a fit man in the stomach does not represent the same mental state as kicking a pregnant woman in the stomach, simply because the attacker had much more clear expectation of causing wide ranging harm.
That makes sense - is it reflected in law (for people suffering from other vulnerabilities)?
 
That makes sense - is it reflected in law (for people suffering from other vulnerabilities)?
I think, in general, assault treatment varies depending on the circumstances and essentially the vulnerability of the individual, based in part on the ability of the attacker to harm that individual. A weapon (such as fists) can be considered deadly depending upon who uses them and who they are used against, for example. So you'd have an assault with a deadly weapon charge in one case, and you'd lack that charge in another case, even if fists were used in both cases.
 
I know I'm probably the odd man out in many cases, but the overturning of Roe v. Wade at a federal level still makes sense to me. The Constitution doesn't cover medical procedures, therefore it really should be up to the states per the 10th Amendment.

No more than state should be allowed to permit murder or rape. Should states be allowed to legalize those things? What exactly is the bill of rights for if not to protect the rights of individuals? Roe probably needed some modification, but the idea that women lose control over their body the moment they become pregnant simply can't be tolerated at any level of government, and there is support for that in the constitution. I don't support "overturning" Roe. Your basic rights to your body should not be denied based on where you stand.

Basically, all this decision did was allow states to implement their own authoritarian policies to further dictate people's lives.

Agreed.

I do like that employers are exercising their rights to pay for and allow travel for medical procedures too. I have no doubt Republicans will attempt to intervene in this though because companies only have rights when they're bribing their sponsored Congressmen.

Agreed.
 
No more than state should be allowed to permit murder or rape. Should states be allowed to legalize those things? What exactly is the bill of rights for if not to protect the rights of individuals?
It's my understanding that crimes like rape and murder fall under the Necessary And Proper Clause, which grants the ability for laws pertaining to them to be passed at a federal level. Although, even with that what constitutes rape and murder varies from state to state. What might be considered rape in one state might be deemed consensual sex in another just based on the age of the people involved. The same goes for murder, in one state is could be considered manslaughter while in another it's murder, then factor in something like a law enforcement officer committing it and it might be considered "part of the job".
Roe probably needed some modification, but the idea that women lose control over their body the moment they become pregnant simply can't be tolerated at any level of government, and there is support for that in the constitution. I don't support "overturning" Roe. Your basic rights to your body should not be denied based on where you stand.
I can agree with this and you do many a good point, Roe did need modification, however, I'm not really sure how you do that other than turfing it to the states to decide. At a federal level, having something codified saying people are entitled to an abortion if the pregnancy is a result of rape or threatening the mother's life should be constitutional. It is complicated though and it ultimately comes down to whether a fetus should have rights or not. I'm of the mindset they don't unless they can survive outside the mother's body. If it still needs to be attached to the mother's body in order to survive, then it's an extension of the mother.

I'd honestly like to see the debate as to whether fetuses should have rights or not and if they do, how the law would apply to them. Like if a baby caused the death of a mother during birth, should it be charged with manslaughter? While that example is ridiculous, it is something that would need to be considered if we're going to give full rights to fetuses.
 
I'd honestly like to see the debate as to whether fetuses should have rights or not and if they do, how the law would apply to them.
Even if you recognize a fetus as having rights, how do you justify the weighing of the supposed rights of a thing that can't have an understanding of those rights--and isn't guaranteed to reach a point at which it can--against the bearer's right to bodily integrity?
 
Roe did need modification, however, I'm not really sure how you do that other than turfing it to the states to decide.

Abortion laws already varied state-by-state under Roe. Roe provided a minimum requirement. The entirety of abortion did not need to be under state control (ie: overturning roe), just like every detail of what constitutes murder or rape does not need to be under state control (and should not be).

The bill of rights is for this purpose, to prevent laws which deny people their basic rights. Texas is currently denying people their basic rights. That's a failure of the US to protect human rights.

I'd honestly like to see the debate as to whether fetuses should have rights or not and if they do, how the law would apply to them. Like if a baby caused the death of a mother during birth, should it be charged with manslaughter? While that example is ridiculous, it is something that would need to be considered if we're going to give full rights to fetuses.

We don't give full rights to children, or many adults for that matter. I don't see how it's remotely viable to give a full compliment of rights to a fetus.

"Hey there little fetus.. who do you vote for for state legislature?"
 
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Texas is currently denying people their basic rights.

evergreen_40952536.jpg
 
Evergreen. I was going to just reply with the word but I went and tried to be clever.

I'm still missing it. It did occur to me that you might be referring to the word evergreen, but I don't know what you're getting at with that.

Briefly I thought this might be a "war on christmas" type of thing.

Are you saying the Texas is blocking the canal of social prosperity or something? I'm reaching here. :)
 
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I'm still missing it. It did occur to me that you might be referring to the word evergreen, but I don't know what you're getting at with that.

Briefly I thought this might be a "war on christmas" type of thing.

Are you saying the Texas is blocking the canal of social prosperity or something? I'm reaching here. :)
:universally and continually relevant
:not limited in applicability to a particular event or date
Edit: Which is to say, in this context, that Texas is in a constant state of denying people their basic rights.
 
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Edit: Which is to say, in this context, that Texas is in a constant state of denying people their basic rights.

Gotcha,

Yes, Texas has a long storied history in this regard, and a deep commitment to continuing that practice well into the future.
 
I regularly find myself just not getting something and it's almost always my fault. This time it's someone else just not getting something and I acknowledge that it's still my fault.

:lol:

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I really ****ing hate this country right now.

I know that this is an incredibly unproductive thing to say, but it's all I've got.

I completely understand. But here are some things I'm trying to keep in mind today. The supreme court is currently under minority rule. The country, "the people" are not represented by the backward practices of the supreme court today, and that's because, mainly, of damage that Trump and the GOP did while he was president.

Trump was elected by a minority of the country, and that harm is still being carried out today by people put in power by that minority. But it's not what the people want, and that will be reflected in state law. Yes, Texas, Louisianna, and friggin Missouri (pronounced misery), are going to get weird. But provided that the supreme court doesn't go further extreme, most state laws are going to reflect more sane people.
 
Anticipating condemnation of criticism of the decision in Dobbs and the insistence that it deserves respect as a decision made by the Supreme Court, I'm just going to put this here.

 
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