Accuforce Steering Wheel Thread

[K_Soze]

I would really like a tester that owns a CSW V2 because while I am sure that the Accuforce is a step beyond the V2, I am curious to know the size of this step.

To be totally honest, with the V2, on a G25 wsp that is lighter and narrower than the T500 wsp, sometimes on some violent reactions I am able to make the stand move. It is the price of the portability with a powerful wheel

 

[LeMansAid]

It is the price of the portability with a powerful wheel

In essence, that's it. I'm fortunate enough to have two rooms completely dedicated to simming and gaming, but that's clearly not an option for everyone.

That said, when I got my first wheel I grabbed an old coffee table and screwed a piece of mdf board to the bottom of the legs, hard-mounted the wheel to the table, velcro-ed the pedals to the mdf, and would sandwich the "foot" of the mdf between the floor and the bottom of a couch. The whole thing was light enough to hang on a hook in the garage, but was utterly rigid.

I may have to summon @fatkrakr again to explain how much detail is lost when a mount is not rigid.

 

[K_Soze]

It remembers me my first ikea rig.
Very heavy, rock solid, but too heavy and big to be stored in a closet.
Rip kitchen table

 

[fumanchu11]

I guess this isn't an Accuforce thread anymore. A mod might as well rename this thread to the "wheelstand pissing contest." Or how bout "Is someone really gonna spend $1700 on a wheel only to put it on a wheelstand?!"

 

[skazz]

This is a console-related forum in many ways... I bet many users are used to a wheelstand and TV setup for Gran Turismo or Forza. No harm in discussing mounting while waiting for forum users to actually have the first batch of wheels delivered

As soon as the first batch is out, I'm sure we'll move on to more "pertinent" topics....

 

[K_Soze]

Sorry if I have spoken about the fact the weight of the Accuforce and its torque required a rig instead of a stand (and then that we debate about the stand sturdiness).

For people not able to have two pcs setup, the stand is the only way. Sorry if I am not earning enough...

Do we know how many beta testers will post a kind of review ? I like reviews, and until now I haven't got one with answers to all my questions.

 

[fatkrakr]

Its not an issue of weather or not the WSP can hold the wheel without collapsing or falling over, but how much FFB detail is lost with it. I had a playseat evo for years (still do, just highly modified) and loved it. No issue with the center post for me what so ever, from my experience the only ones with center post issues are people who have never used one, with a DF Pro or g27. When I first bought my CSW I didn't see an issue either. It wasn't until I had to send my wheel for repair and took it to a friends when it was returned so he could try it. There it was mounted on a very solid work bench for some temporary sim racing. I noticed right away how much more FFB detail there was and thought my first wheel must of been screwed from day one. Got the wheel home bolted it up to the playseat and it became pretty obvious what the issue was. Most all of the small, light FFB gets absorbed by the "slight wobble" (because that's all you get with the evo) and the wheel felt dead with all but the highest detail. I thought the G27 was better at delivering the small forces until I mounted the CSW to a solid mount. So its not will it hold the wheel, but wheel the stand let you feel all the FFB detail available. Just my experience with wobble in the wheel deck.

 

[K_Soze]

Very interesting ! I will see how to improve the stand sturdiness. But it seams a CSL would be the right solution.

By the way it is very logical that high frequencies signals are lost if absorb by something else than your hands (belts, stand, gears...).

So would a wood mount be not enough for the Accuforce ?

 

[fatkrakr]

It doesn't matter what you mount it to, some FFB will be lost in the rig, but the wobble being described here really does take a lot away from how the wheel feels. The other benefit that I got from a solid wheel deck was saving slides. Has nothing to do with FFB, but thought Id add it because it was a huge improvement.

 

[Blkout]

I guess this isn't an Accuforce thread anymore. A mod might as well rename this thread to the "wheelstand pissing contest." Or how bout "Is someone really gonna spend $1700 on a wheel only to put it on a wheelstand?!"

Considering hardly no one has an Accuforce wheel at the moment I don't know what else there is to talk about. However, there will be some reports trickling in over the next few months as customers receive theirs.

 

[K_Soze]

It seems that there are reviews in iRacing forums. Consensus is : that wheel is from another league/galaxy (seen on RaceDepartment forums)

When you see this you can understand that the wheel is able to make you feel hight detailed FFB.

 

[oqvist]

Very interesting ! I will see how to improve the stand sturdiness. But it seams a CSL would be the right solution.

By the way it is very logical that high frequencies signals are lost if absorb by something else than your hands (belts, stand, gears...).

So would a wood mount be not enough for the Accuforce ?

Well isn´t the CSL based on the renoseat and I know one that want to sell his mainly due to wheel wobble. So it´s not the final solution.

I think there is plenty of simracers that don´t realize the importance of absolute solidity. I sit in a cockpit like this currently and it was an eye opener coming from a playseat Evolution to say the least. Before my HE Sim Ultimates I just couldn´t get it to flex a mm anywhere! http://www.thewayiplay.com/mainforum/index.php?topic=88.0.

I reinforced the pedal tray but I still get some flex from my racing certified cobra daytona racing chair and from the pedal tray. Not that noticable while racing but I know that if I found a 180 kg steel cockpit instead of a 90 kg steel cockpit I would probably be able to tell the difference. However This give way at about the same rate as my body so maybe that is a good thing lol. Trying to run up to 130 kg brake pressures is a lot to ask Heck I can´t really achieve more then 90 currently so my left leg is growing stronger

To match this cockpit and pedals nothing less then a true directdrive high torque servo motor would do. CSW V2 or lesser belt driven low power servo motor wheels just wouldn´t do it justice whatsoever.

As for wood it can be very stable. Not as using the same amount of solid steel of course but better then most aluminium or hollow tube setups if done right

 

[Blkout]

Every cockpit is designed differently and who's to say there aren't variances in each one of those in what you actually feel. I can say that my younger brother has a SimXperience Stage IV simulator and I can't honestly from a FFB standpoint I get any more detail from his setup that I do my wheel stand pro. I can say that it is more immersive to actually sit in a seat in a driving position, and of course a full motion simulator helps with other forces but as far as FFB from the wheel, I'd argue all day long that I get just as much detail from my wheel stand pro. Maybe its that I don't have the height of mine adjusted that high making it very rigid but that damn bar that runs between your legs is INCREDIBLY strong and rigid and it just doesn't move. In fact I can feel subtle vibrations down that middle bar such as engine vibration in R3E.

So if the argument is that cockpits just provide more detail through better rigidity, I guess someone needs to start a thread on which cockpits are the most rigid and provide the most feedback because there's no way in Hell anyone can argue that every cockpit is superior when they're all designed differently. There are bad cockpits just like there are bad wheel stands. So with that, I'd like to hear from people that have had multiple cockpits about which one's were superior from a FFB standpoint and why because apparently its impossible to get FFB from a wheel stand pro according to those people that have never owned one.

 

[oqvist]

Lol yes Raceroom ffb is great fun. No other sim give me pedal vibration like that

As for most rigid hard to say. There is a few that should give you no flex on the wheel side of things and thus can´t be improved I recon. But I haven´t been able to test a whole lot I am afraid so can´t really help with a list. I have used my whole body weight attempting to make mine budge to no avail so it´s on the 100 % firm list I am confident.

I should mention real light weight cockpits can be tons of fun too. I won the playseat challenge on a league. Very lightweight but there is no risk tipping over when sitting in it. My weakling TX shake the entire cockpit with ease. High fidelity? No but great fun and it was more solid then expected I have to say. It would be interesting to see what an Accuforce would do with it. I see great risk for severr injuries I would not do that experiment

 

[skazz]

We've wandered into two very different topics now:
1. Pure stability of a relatively light stand, for instance when you really throw around the wheel during drifting and put enough arm power in to lift the stand off the ground (more relevant as you are fighting against higher forces hence the Accuforce concern)
2. Flex, and potential loss of fine FFB detail due to higher frequency oscillations being absorbed by the stand. The concern being that Accuforce could potentially shake apart a less sturdy stand...

I'd agree that 1 and 2 are not directly related. However wheelstands are by their portable nature light and probably flex a bit more than a 100kg steel cockpit

I will say that my solidly-mounted T300 PC rig is one heck of a lot easier to correct big messy drifts with than my Rennsport wheelstand holding the T500, purely due to stability. I don't feel any vibration in the pedals on the wheelstand so I'm not worried about that aspect much.

 

[Blkout]

Lol yes Raceroom ffb is great fun. No other sim give me pedal vibration like that

As for most rigid hard to say. There is a few that should give you no flex on the wheel side of things and thus can´t be improved I recon. But I haven´t been able to test a whole lot I am afraid so can´t really help with a list. I have used my whole body weight attempting to make mine budge to no avail so it´s on the 100 % firm list I am confident.

I should mention real light weight cockpits can be tons of fun too. I won the playseat challenge on a league. Very lightweight but there is no risk tipping over when sitting in it. My weakling TX shake the entire cockpit with ease. High fidelity? No but great fun and it was more solid then expected I have to say. It would be interesting to see what an Accuforce would do with it. I see great risk for severr injuries I would not do that experiment

Engine vibration, not pedal vibration. That being said, still proves my point that even subtle effects are felt through a Wheel Stand Pro. That's all I was saying. And as I stated before, I'm no champion drifter and I'm certainly not throwing my wheel around like a rally driver on crack. It works just fine for track racing though which is most of what I do.

I will eventually move to a cockpit when I have more room for one but I'm quite happy with the Wheel Stand Pro as it is. Its just very hard to discuss its merits with people that don't have one.

 

[Blkout]

We've wandered into two very different topics now:
1. Pure stability of a relatively light stand, for instance when you really throw around the wheel during drifting and put enough arm power in to lift the stand off the ground (more relevant as you are fighting against higher forces hence the Accuforce concern)
2. Flex, and potential loss of fine FFB detail due to higher frequency oscillations being absorbed by the stand. The concern being that Accuforce could potentially shake apart a less sturdy stand...

I'd agree that 1 and 2 are not directly related. However wheelstands are by their portable nature light and probably flex a bit more than a 100kg steel cockpit

I will say that my solidly-mounted T300 PC rig is one heck of a lot easier to correct big messy drifts with than my Rennsport wheelstand holding the T500, purely due to stability. I don't feel any vibration in the pedals on the wheelstand so I'm not worried about that aspect much.

I'm certainly going to find out if an Accuforce will completely destroy a Wheel Stand Pro as so many think it will. I understand that without wielding Thor's hammer, I won't even be able to turn the wheel on the Accuforce due to its insane force but I'm going to give it a shot anyway.

 

[oqvist]

Engine vibration, not pedal vibration. That being said, still proves my point that even subtle effects are felt through a Wheel Stand Pro. That's all I was saying. And as I stated before, I'm no champion drifter and I'm certainly not throwing my wheel around like a rally driver on crack. It works just fine for track racing though which is most of what I do.

I will eventually move to a cockpit when I have more room for one but I'm quite happy with the Wheel Stand Pro as it is. Its just very hard to discuss its merits with people that don't have one.

´
Yes it´s the engine or brake effects that give the pedal vibration. But those effects are all but subtle or they wouldn´t be felt of course.

I don´t think anybody here doubt that you are able to race with the WSP. It´s not what I am debating at least.

 

[super_gt]

 

[Blkout]

Love the wheel but LFS is such an old POS game now. I'll take whatever footage I can get though for now. LOL.

 

[skazz]

The moments in that video where he snatches the wheel back to center aggressively part way through a drift instead of smoothly exiting the drift are the times when you apply the most force against the FFB motor. That would be the point which I find challenges the stability of my wheelstand when doing the same kind of drifting using my lowly T500.

And back on topic: To be honest LFS isn't the best sim to use for demonstrating the Accuforce's FFB power because it's quite forgiving and you can drift with a G25 comfortably without needing to help it much. I'd be more impressed to see someone comfortably drifting various cars in iRacing

 

[super_gt]

http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/16563-avenga76s-simxperience-accuforce-review/

 

[bevo]

The moments in that video where he snatches the wheel back to center aggressively part way through a drift instead of smoothly exiting the drift are the times when you apply the most force against the FFB motor. That would be the point which I find challenges the stability of my wheelstand when doing the same kind of drifting using my lowly T500.

And back on topic: To be honest LFS isn't the best sim to use for demonstrating the Accuforce's FFB power because it's quite forgiving and you can drift with a G25 comfortably without needing to help it much. I'd be more impressed to see someone comfortably drifting various cars in iRacing

The FF in LFS wouldn't be the same though as using any other wheel. Simcommander should drastically change the feel of FF with it. They say a game doesnt even need to support FF for the accuforce have FF.

It sounds like the software is going to be the part that really sets this wheel apart.

 

[Nick Moxley]

Should be interesting how Bernie deals with a summons in the mail.

 

[fatkrakr]

The FF in LFS wouldn't be the same though as using any other wheel. Simcommander should drastically change the feel of FF with it. They say a game doesnt even need to support FF for the accuforce have FF.

It sounds like the software is going to be the part that really sets this wheel apart.

The game would need to support motion though. I am not sure of any games that support motion and not FFB.

 

[isamu]

The game would need to support motion though. I am not sure of any games that support motion and not FFB.

Outrun2006 for the PC does. Boneheaded as it seems but that's the case.

 

[bevo]

The game would need to support motion though. I am not sure of any games that support motion and not FFB.

I don't think it would need to. The way I understand it is that it pulls the extra FF from the games telemetry for what's going on with the cars suspension and tires the same way simvibe gives its vibrations.

I may be wrong though.

 

[K_Soze]

Yes but actually it is absolutely unrealistic to create some FFB from anything else than torque induce by the tire patch contact with ground. Using directly tire load or slip ratio/angle to produce FFB is a "hack". Maybe their own ffb is based on some Pacejka formula + some data but it feels like they are computing another tire model to produce FFB. This is what I mean when I said having the ability to tune the FFB using "kerb input" or "engine rpm" is everything but simulation.

 

[HoiHman]

I don't think it would need to. The way I understand it is that it pulls the extra FF from the games telemetry for what's going on with the cars suspension and tires the same way simvibe gives its vibrations.

I may be wrong though.

Yes but if the game puts out telemetry, it usually also supports motion

Yes but actually it is absolutely unrealistic to create some FFB from anything else than torque induce by the tire patch contact with ground. Using directly tire load or slip ratio/angle to produce FFB is a "hack". Maybe their own ffb is based on some Pacejka formula + some data but it feels like they are computing another tire model to produce FFB. This is what I mean when I said having the ability to tune the FFB using "kerb input" or "engine rpm" is everything but simulation.

Not sure i agree with you on that. I don't think it's a matter of realism, but more a matter of perception of realism. As far as i know all the beta testers prefered the simcommander FFB over the FFB coming from the game.

The ability to fine tune your wheel and choose the effects you prefer is wat sets this direct drive wheel appart from all others.

 

[K_Soze]

I understand that testers prefer to have more informations than what a real wheel can provide, it helps a lot to be faster. Imagine a wheel that becomes hard to turn when then tires are providing the optimal grip and then be easy to turn when not. It is more comfortable this way of course, but it is some kind of assistance mixed with canned effects.

What I mean is while it is maybe nice to set your wheel to improve your lap times, it is not simulation.