AI slow down to let you win.

[jimbo11]

The thing is, they already have "easier" settings. That's what the skid reduction force is all about. That's what using cars near the PP limit is for (instead of ~100pp down, which is what I was driving in the example above). That's what using the best tires available is for. Using the million preorder credits you got, using the 15th anniversary cars, using the free VGT car, using the powerful early prize cars (x-bow), etc. etc. etc. Now they program the game to let you win no matter how low PP your car is? Come on.

But yes, I think if they're going to do crap like this, they need to add a difficulty setting. Like I said, let people turn on the "make the AI so stupidly easy that it literally waits for you" feature, rather than forcing it on for everyone and programming it to let you win on the last turn every time.

 

[CarBastard]

I think the AI is fine as it is, they're showing they can be fast. What annoys me is that this whole chared is made necessary by PDs stupid insistance in rolling starts and no qualifying. Of course the lead cars have to slow down for me, they start freakin' 12 seconds ahead of me everytime! The AI can be competitive with a few little improvements like delaying their braking points but what's the point if they're subject to a vibranium rubberband?

It's just one of the many things that make you go: "WHY. THE. 🤬. PD???" A simple thing to do, adding qualifying and making all cars start in the same grid, with no absurd advantages, but no...they insist in doing things "their way" .

 

[Cosbuster]

What's all the fuzz about? People whine if they get their behind beaten by the AI. Then people whine if the AI hands them the win on the last few corners. I had more fun passing and being passed in GT6 thus far than I had in all of GT5.

It's not about winning or losing, it's about having something that resembles a race.

 

[mister dog]

I did the best I could to catch up and managed to get in sight of the 1st place car with about 2 laps to go but to my surprise he went into the pits as did many of the other cars and I cruised to an easy win of over 40 seconds after spinning 3 times, driving slow during the night and running out of gas over a mile from the pits.

They did that during GT5's endurance races also, crazy pit stop strategies that don't make no sense and put you in the lead after a while no matter what.

 

[jimbo11]

What's all the fuzz about? People whine if they get their behind beaten by the AI.

Who does this? If you get beaten, get better or use a better car.

If I want to *not* have a ridiculously easy race, there's literally nothing I can do. I either drive a Prius and get last place, or I drive anything else and the AI slows down enough to let me win automatically.

the fun is back in the game. Jump in virtually any car, have a good race (which for me is plenty of overtaking), grab the win and feel like a true hero.

You feel like a hero when people pull over in front of you and let you by? How the heck is that fun?

 

[stb155]

I just tried another test. Freshman Cup NB Silverstone

I took out a stock Subaru 360 on CM tires and as expected I finished dead last by a large margin 52+ seconds behind the leader who was driving a Delta and had a total race time of 3:42

I ran the same race in the MX-5 on SH tires but got a different lineup of cars, This time there was a GTO SR96 and a GTO SR95 up front.

I won easily in the MX-5 beating the GTO by almost 4 seconds. The GTOs total race time was 3:29

I know exactly what you mean, i had this happening in IB Allstars and the races where really fun.

But this is one out of 100, in most races it just doesn't work.
If you have a slightly to good car you you win without problem, if you have a slightly to slow car you notice them to slow down for you.

And even if you get the right car and they start racing you there is the problem that they will slow down as soon as you make a mistake. And this just kills the race.
If i don't have the pressure of knowing i have to be fast but every missed braking point could cost me 1st place where is the fun ?

Live timing shows the lead car setting a best lap of 2:33, my best lap of 2:38, and the lead car's final lap was 2:52 - after which I beat him by .330s. A car capable of setting 2:33s should not be doing 2:52s, and a car capable of setting 2:38s should not be beating a car which can set 2:33s. This is in iB by the way, not novice.

The joke is he could even go faster, they never start with 100%. Only if you catch them by 50% of the race they really give their best, so probably he could do 2:20

but the fun is back in the game. Jump in virtually any car, have a good race (which for me is plenty of overtaking), grab the win and feel like a true hero.

Does not work for me, i have no fun in overtaking people or AI that drive at 50% or in a way slower car.
And certainly does not make me feel like a hero....

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I know exactly what you mean, i had this happening in IB Allstars and the races where really fun.

But this is one out of 100, in most races it just doesn't work.
If you have a slightly to good car you you win without problem, if you have a slightly to slow car you notice them to slow down for you.

And even if you get the right car and they start racing you there is the problem that they will slow down as soon as you make a mistake. And this just kills the race.
If i don't have the pressure of knowing i have to be fast but every missed braking point could cost me 1st place where is the fun ?

I guess I have been lucky in selecting my cars then as I have had some good races many times already and a lot of fun. Currently I am at about a 67% win percentage out of around 350 races. I have even had races where I made only minor mistakes and got smoked and I had had a few where is was tight racing for several minutes at a shot even in a couple of cases where my car was near the max PP and driving pretty well.

Probably the best one was Nurburgring 15 minute race. That Fina McLaren put up quite a fight. I was driving the FordGT SpecII race car. caught the F1 at the end of the 2nd lap. I thought this was the last lap and I was still behind the F1 going into the final corner so I dive bombed him in that corner and took the lead only to find that there was still a few seconds left when I crossed the line. The next lap was intense. The F1 was all over me on every straight trying to find a way to pass but couldn't do so. He bumped me a few times and almost caused me to lose control a time or two. Coming down the final straight I managed to block him and hold him off then in the final corner he tried the same dive bomb move that I used on him the lap before but I managed to block that as well and won the race by a very small margin.

Quite possibly the best race on the ring I have ever had racing AI cars in any game.

 

[bigspleen]

I think the AI is fine as it is, they're showing they can be fast. What annoys me is that this whole chared is made necessary by PDs stupid insistance in rolling starts and no qualifying. Of course the lead cars have to slow down for me, they start freakin' 12 seconds ahead of me everytime! The AI can be competitive with a few little improvements like delaying their braking points but what's the point if they're subject to a vibranium rubberband?

It's just one of the many things that make you go: "WHY. THE. 🤬. PD???" A simple thing to do, adding qualifying and making all cars start in the same grid, with no absurd advantages, but no...they insist in doing things "their way" .

It is NOT even close to fine the way it is...............

 

[jimbo11]

I guess I have been lucky in selecting my cars then as I have had some good races many times already and a lot of fun. Currently I am at about a 67% win percentage out of around 350 races. I have even had races where I made only minor mistakes and got smoked and I had had a few where is was tight racing for several minutes at a shot even in a couple of cases where my car was near the max PP and driving pretty well.

Probably the best one was Nurburgring 15 minute race. That Fina McLaren put up quite a fight. I was driving the FordGT SpecII race car. caught the F1 at the end of the 2nd lap. I thought this was the last lap and I was still behind the F1 going into the final corner so I dive bombed him in that corner and took the lead only to find that there was still a few seconds left when I crossed the line. The next lap was intense. The F1 was all over me on every straight trying to find a way to pass but couldn't do so. He bumped me a few times and almost caused me to lose control a time or two. Coming down the final straight I managed to block him and hold him off then in the final corner he tried the same dive bomb move that I used on him the lap before but I managed to block that as well and won the race by a very small margin.

Quite possibly the best race on the ring I have ever had racing AI cars in any game.

The reason you caught him at the end of the 2nd lap is because the computer thought it was the last lap too, and he was programmed to let you catch him at the end of the last lap. Then he sped up because he's programmed to follow you but never actually catch you, spun you out because either he was programmed to do so or because the programming for passing is pretty terrible, and slowed down after you spun out because he's programmed to let you win. Which is why you won by a small margin, because that's how the AI has been programmed.

Notice how you had an easier time catching him after being spun than you did during the whole first lap? That's because the computer lets you win.

 

[BWX]

If anything after the patch, the ai are slower than pre-patch. I raced Euro hot hatch race 1 London quite a few times yesterday with Mito, CS tires, (ai had SH) only power upgrade was sports exhaust and a chip, and transmission was 5 speed, soft sports suspension. I was using clutch and gated shifter.

Before, I almost won a few times like that but ended up using paddle shifters and sports hard tires to win, which was pretty easy.

After patch I just raced it again. Using clutch, but this time with CS tires and no chip like before when I couldn't win. I won very easily.

I did a couple other races in that series and the ai seem even slower than pre-patch, by quite a bit.

On that Spa race I passed the leader on first lap, but he passed me back on the straight, then I passed him again and he was gone. They also still come to stop almost to let you by in a corner. Ridiculous...

The ai has not improved, at least in that category. Slower than ever, all the heavy braking to let you by, etc.. all still there, maybe even worse now. Pathetic Kaz.

EDIT
Update below... different outcome in different race..

 

[BWX]

UPDATE on ai.....
Well that's weird. I just did the Schwartzwald race 1 at Cape ring south twice with stock Scirocco R '10. I had CS, Ai had SS tires.

The Ruff BTR '86 beat me both times, and definitely DID NOT SLOW DOWN to let me win. I came in second right behind him both races, once a little closer to him. So that is encouraging.

Using no aids, no ABS, and was using paddle shifters because that car won't allow you to use clutch because it has paddle shifters in real life. I mean you can use gated shifter, but no clutch, so I just used paddles.

That was the first time I raced that race, so I have no idea if that makes a difference, or if it would have been different before patch. Hmm..

The ai are still slow I guess, I shouldn't have been anywhere near him with CS tires... but the fact that I was close to winning, and didn't, is good. I have a feeling that pre-patch, he would have slowed to a crawl and let me win.

 

[Hazzy997]

I've actually just completed race 2 of Tour of Japan and once I passed the LFA it was right on my tail the whole time causing me to panic and make mistakes...at one point he almost overtook me but we mysteriously collided(),

I won the race with him almost reaching me right before the finish line. So that was neat.

And then right before I proceed to the third race I try to open a bag of peanut M&M'S to snack on fortunately to have them blow up in my face and fly all over my room.

So now I'm cleaning picking up lots of M&M'S.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I've actually just completed race 2 of Tour of Japan and once I passed the LFA it was right on my tail the whole time causing me to panic and make mistakes...at one point he almost overtook me but we mysteriously collided(),

I won the race with him almost reaching me right before the finish line. So that was neat.

But, which car were you in?

 

[Hazzy997]

But, which car were you in?

Nissan GTR black edition...btw look back again at my post.

 

[Hazzy997]

I've never made this many mistakes with a GTR before....

 

[Doober]

Anyone notice that in the Red Bull Challenge there are standing starts? AND the AI were not slowing down for me, at least from what I could tell.

 

[CarBastard]

Anyone notice that in the Red Bull Challenge there are standing starts? AND the AI were not slowing down for me, at least from what I could tell.

Karting races all have standing starts. It makes me wonder... why, oh why, PD don't you give us MOAR standing starts?

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

The reason you caught him at the end of the 2nd lap is because the computer thought it was the last lap too, and he was programmed to let you catch him at the end of the last lap. Then he sped up because he's programmed to follow you but never actually catch you, spun you out because either he was programmed to do so or because the programming for passing is pretty terrible, and slowed down after you spun out because he's programmed to let you win. Which is why you won by a small margin, because that's how the AI has been programmed.

Notice how you had an easier time catching him after being spun than you did during the whole first lap? That's because the computer lets you win.

No the reason I caught him was because I was driving fast, staying on the track and then in his slip stream.
He did not spin me out. He did catch me and he tried to pass, would have passed if I would have let him.

I won by a small margin because he was in my slip stream, tried to pass right at the end and I cut him off.

As for programming, I don't think I need anyone to tell me about how they are programed unless of course it is someone who actually wrote the code. I am a professional developer so I know a thing or two about programming.

The point here is that it was a great race and something I see very little of on Nurburgring from the AI. Generally when I play Forza with the AI set to the hardest possible I just run away from the AI and only see them again when I lap them.

GT6 this race was actually fun, and no matter what anyone says they do not let you win I have over 100 loses to prove that already. They do however drive a bit slower when you are slow and faster when you are fast so they do seem to try and give you a chance which is kinda good as different skill levels racing against the same AI can still get a decent race.

In any case I see no evidence of the AI letting you win in any race I have entered. It does appear that there may be some code in place that alters the pace of the AI based on your pace and they do tend to drive a bit slower if you crash early or have a weaker car or just aren't very fast. If you drive hard and avoid mistakes they are fairly quick and they can offer up some entertaining races if you pick the right car.

 

[stb155]

They do however drive a bit slower when you are slow

Are you serious ?

How much is "a bit" for you

In races with about 2min. Laptime they already start at ~5sec. less compared to what they actually could do.
If you are way back after half the race the slow down another 10sec.
So 15sec difference, that is more than 10% !!!

This is not a bit , that is byte

You know the 107% rule in F1 ?
(Basically a driver who is more than 7% slower than pole position time is not allowed to start in the race)

In GT6 you would do all the races alone under that rule !


I agree that there must be some kind of dynamic AI in GT6 because otherwise their stupid races simply won't work.
(If you start 10sec. behind and have to overtake 13 cars in 5 laps while the leader drives at 100% it is impossible to win unless you have a way faster car)

But the way it works now is just horrible obvious, they slow down way to much.


All races should be longer, you should start in the middle of the grid, the positions of the opponents should be random and they should have much more equal cars (not FXX 1st and Miata 16th).
Then the AI could start with 100% and then "adapt" to your laptimes/position, but never slower than 97%

and they do tend to drive a bit slower if you crash

Again, how much is a bit ?
I tried it out and watched the replays, if you get them to race you (laptimes within 1sec) but then have a crash halfway through last lap he will slow down by 5sec. In half a lap.
That's not a bit, thats huge and again way to obvious.

 

[RacingManiac]

Anyone notice that in the Red Bull Challenge there are standing starts? AND the AI were not slowing down for me, at least from what I could tell.

Cars are even and the races are short...

AI definitely alters their pace to help you win, I'd like to think I can make up 10 sec in a lap, and there are time and tracks that I can pull a big gap on AI even on slower cars. But in races where my lap time varies less than 1 sec and my gap to leader has not changed running that lap time, and all of a sudden I am on AI's arse on the last lap? Somethings are not normal there..

 

[MeanElf]

It's a curious situation alright. Whilst I'm not particularly happy at being 'allowed' to win, I have noticed that the field balaces itself nicely and according to the car you choose - okay, it did that to some extent in GT5 too. This time though, I think the options are broader due to this new method picked by PD. Typically I go for a car that is 100pp lower than the limit which means that I have to drive well, even if the competition rarely goes up to the limit themselves - it becomes more of a challenge because mistakes will allow the rubber-band mechanic to punish you, so it's never a foregone conclusion.

Okay, it's strange to beat a car that you know is far faster than your own - however, if you can see past that quirk, the wide range of competing cars and the slowing down of the top contenders during the last third of the race, does make an odd kind of sense of it all. Also it feels more balanced compared to the 'rabbit' races in GT5. In that game, you pretty much had to chose the right car straight away. I know that isn't so much of a problem for most who have played more than the one GT title as the right cars are a known quantity - this way though, the way it is with GT6...allows you to take a lot more cars out onto the track to see how they fare against others. Admittedly, it's still a bit weird when you beat a Light Company Rocket with a barely tuned Elise, but I still think the system for all it's strangeness, is more fun. We all try various cars out in arcade mode, well, I assume that a fair number of us do - this way though, we can try out those other cars and get money for doing that too.

Ideally though, to make sense of the whole situation, the PP difference should be implemented in all career races, so encouraging players to de-tune or use lower PP cars for the higher rewards.

 

[stb155]

All true, but it is way to extreme !

If the races where just a little bit longer and you would start 7th/5sec. behind and not 15th/10 behind and the "nemesis" not runs away at front but starts 5th you cold have the same "balanced race" with much much less obvious AI slowdown.

The starting last is something that makes no sense whatsoever, the 2nd half of the field is going so slow you cant speak of overtaking when you drive by them, even in Races where they drive the same cars (GT3 for example) they are so much slower that they only stand in your way.
Just look at the timetable after the race, the last cars are always ridiculous far back.
Why you have to start behind them ?

In that game, you pretty much had to chose the right car straight away. I know that isn't so much of a problem for most who have played more than the one GT title as the right cars are a known quantity

This is why there is now a section in the game called "recommended cars" , tells everyone new to GT which car he should get for every part of the game.
So why still make the AI so extreme "dynamic" that you can win with more or less any car ?

 

[raven214]

Last night I did the Red Bull races, and in the kart race at Silverstone I saw the AI basically slow down and let me go twice in a row. In 3 laps going through the last turn onto the front straight I had the following results:

1st lap: I came off tucked behind another kart and stayed behind him all the way down the straight before making a move under braking. I actually thought to myself at the time "the AI is giving me a good fight here."

2nd and 3rd lap: I came off behind another kart on both of these laps, but both times I saw a little space open on the inside of the last turn so I stuck my nose in there thinking we'd have a nice drag race down the straight. In both cases, the other kart immediately backed off, letting me go and falling several kart lengths behind me. I wasn't being overly aggressive or leaning on them or anything like that.

There was some good racing in both the RB Kart and Jr races - the AI in GT6 does seem more aggressive to me on the whole, but that example stuck out to me showing there is still a problem.

 

[stb155]

Ideally though, to make sense of the whole situation, the PP difference should be implemented in all career races, so encouraging players to de-tune or use lower PP cars for the higher rewards.

This does not work with the current AI, if you take a car 50pp down they slow down 5sec for you, if you take a car 100pp down the gift you 10sec. a lap.
Of corse there is a limit somewhere, if you have a car 100pp down, 3steps worse tires and spin 3 times it may become difficult to win.
But that limit is ridiculous low down.
The best chance of something close to a race you get in longer races by taking a equal car and tyres (or 20pp down and 1 step harder tires).
But this also works only half the time because you have to be close to P1 at 50% of the race, or he will start to slow down again.

Problem is also they don't speed up fast enough, if you catch up to the leader in lap 4 of a 5lap race he is already going very slow.
Instead of speeding up when you come close he waits for you to overtake.
Then he speeds up but will usually not bother you again if you have a equal car and drive well.

 

[Touring Mars]

I was demo-ing GT6 for a friend last night and, although he has never seen the game before, he noticed the rubber-banding immediately. The race that tore it for me was GT National Championship race where the lead car put in two decent laps of 2:36 and 2:37, building a huge 12 second lead over me... his third and final lap was an astonishing 2:55. I had to watch the replay to check that he hadn't pulled over to the side of the track for a picnic midway through the final lap (he hadn't). When I passed the lead car, he was going so slowly I thought I was lapping a back-marker.

In the race that my friend watched me do, I was trailing by 7 seconds at the start of the third and final lap, but I was catching the lead car hand over fist, but in my haste I hit a barrier (attempting not to lose in front of my mate!). I needn't have bothered trying to drive a super-quick final lap, though, since despite the off, I still caught and passed the lead car and won with a couple of seconds to spare.

I'm not against rubber-banding - but for heaven's sake, give us the option to turn it off.

 

[altid6]

The most frustrating thing about the AI is that PD actually made AI quite fast and aggressive. Just not for an entire race. The front runners are fast on the first lap and then go on vacation on the last lap of the race. So PD knows how to program a fast AI and the pace have nothing to do “old” PS3 hardware.
So why not have all of the opponents at the same level, as we have seen from the lead car on the first lap and the aggression from the lead car, when it has been overtaken on the final lap.
If all of the opponents were programmed in that way, we could have some nice close racing with the entire pack and standing starts/qualification should be an option.

 

[HBK]

I'm not against rubber-banding - but for heaven's sake, give us the option to turn it off.

This.

And give us difficulty options goddammit!

I understand this kind of rubberbanding is somewhat needed when running stupidly set-up races (C7 vs FXX, lol).

And I understand PD doesn't want realistically set-up races (always starting last or second-last and needing to finish first when he has a 40s lead thanks to the rolling start, re-lol).

Just give up some difficulty options. So that this FXX does crappy laps because the driver is bad, but at least does somewhat CONSISTENT laps and don't just literally crawl to a stop by the end of the race in order to let you win.

I could understand the game being somewhat easy, that's why you can always take an "underpowered" car to make races less of a bore. But at least somewhat give us the impression that the race is actually some kind of a race where the AI actually tries to win and is not there for the sole purpose of annoying the player.

 

[Morgoth_666]

I managed to have one of those elusive races that *appeared* to not have the AI waiting around for me last night. National A, MR series first race at Madrid Mini. Running an Acura NSX at around 465PP with only power mods, first on CS and then SH tires. The whole time I appeared to be catching the leaders at a steady rate and as I improved my times and upped my tires I gradually got closer and closer with only minor variations until finally winning. I also never observed any suspect behavior once the leaders were in sight.

Not sure if it was because the race was so short or if they just couldn't go any slower or if I just got lucky. Top opponents were a Ford GT40 Mk I and a Miura, both of which are well over the PP limit if the cars are stock. Gotta love how that works, the Turbo race is limited to 550 PP and you race cars that are 460, both the NA and MR races are limited to 500 and you race cars that are 500 in one and 520 in the other. Also gotta love how the "likely opponents" list has nothing to do with what cars you will actually be racing.

It wasn't exactly what I'd call "fun" or a "race," but it was the best and most fair challenge I've had in GT6 career and felt like most of the events from GT5. I had run races in the same car in 1.01 the night before with an HSC obviously waiting horribly, and several other races the same night in 1.02 with other cars that appeared to be the usual procedure as well. Of course, the bots all still park when you get alongside or scare them by closing too fast, but that is another matter.

 

[raven214]

I have seen cars go off pace at the end of races, almost like they're waiting for you, but I can't tell you how many times I've seen the opposite. Many times when I take the lead and build up a good gap, maybe 5 seconds or more, it doesn't take too long for the now 2nd place car to come roaring back and challenge me all the way to the finish. Now I know it's natural to drive a little more conservatively once you're in the lead, but I really don't think I'm doing it to that extent. It sure does make for some interesting finishes. The only times they really haven't caught back up to me is when I've had a far overpowered car for the event. I would like to see more consistency in AI times throughout the race, though I admit it is kind of neat to see them keep you on your toes. Tweak the AI, give us a difficulty setting (and ramp up the rewards as you increase difficulty), and you could have something.

 

[Mercury1]

It sure is a pain in the ass winning on NFS Shift 2. Talk about ruthless opponents.

I just could not get past the awful driving physics, put it aside 2 weeks after I bought it after not being able to get a Lambo around Bathurst in one piece on my own! It was like trying to turn an oil tanker and the cars would veer horribly also. Actually, now that I remember, when turning, it felt like the cars had one wheel in the centre of the body. That sound right? Loved the first one, particularly the sounds. Bit arcady in NFS but they should have stuck with the same physics in 2 IMHO.