AI's braking is ridiculous.

[EnzoRacer]

No, I'm saying it to you because you're telling everyone else that racing should be an unchallenging handout. That makes no sense. If you want it easy, you can always do hot-laps by yourself.

"racing should be an unchallenging handout" - where did I say that? It's just your fantasy?!
I've just described mechanic of races in GT. There are many people whining about AI in GT. But what are they suggest? Only slider. But for what? As they said "for faster AI bots". And for winning these bots with comfortable challenge you'll need to choose right car and tuning as it's right now, aspects are the same. Another suggestions except slider?
AI in arcade games is more challenging because it's an arcade where bots can do wonders, they don't know word "physics". It's unrealistic but challenging. GT has own way, with own pluses and minuses in AI

 

[watermelon punch]

"racing should be an unchallenging handout" - where did I say that? It's just your fantasy?!

It's called "reductio ad absurdum", and it's a very popular conversational technique in this thread.
(You're lucky if someone doesn't start calling you a commie or a "scrounger". )

That said, I don't think the sliding scale AI difficulty level is a bad idea. Sounds like the most sensible compromise for those who just don't want to pick a car that's uncompetitive enough, or think they shouldn't have to. (Fair enough.)


Though I think what some people really want is for Gran Turismo incarnations to progress with them.

That's clearly not the direction that they want to go in. They want each new version of GT to accessible to newbies.

https://www.gtplanet.net/kazunori-yamauchi-gt6-launch-interview/

I think it's pretty clear that the idea is that once you're good at it, you go online & compete against other people, or set up your own challenges with other people.
It's not wrong to be dissatisfied with that. But it is ungenerous to ignore that you have that option.

I remember the family cups in GT4 where you could set your difficulty level. I liked that.
Yeah, the AI are seem rather stupid to me now. So maybe even that wouldn't be good enough for me now.
Maybe nothing other than racing with other real people will ever be again.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Wait, what? Can you actually do this yourself?
I assumed this would be an AI thing only

You can, but it was complete luck, or dumb luck depending on how you look at it. It was entirely stock, and I was drafting over the hill part until the AI for some reason decided to brake hard making me panic and slam on the brakes.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

I wouldn't go as far as saying that the AI is broken as they ARE working and racing around the track, but they do have a serious flaw to them in the braking department. I have never seen a real car lift its rear wheels off the ground during braking unless it was purposely set up to do that. In my opinion, this silly AI behavior is making the game look like the "Real Arcade Simulator". It definitely needs to be worked on.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I wouldn't go as far as saying that the AI is broken as they ARE working and racing around the track, but they do have a serious flaw to them in the braking department. I have never seen a real car lift its rear wheels off the ground during braking unless it was purposely set up to do that. In my opinion, this silly AI behavior is making the game look like the "Real Arcade Simulator". It definitely needs to be worked on.

Okay well let me ask this then, at what point does more and more as well as flaws that replace old flaws with new flaws every game, finally become broken to you? Cause PD haven't done much to alleviate such issues if at all, and you know being a bit critical of something you like isn't a bad thing it's actually the honest thing.

 

[watermelon punch]

Okay well let me ask this then, at what point does more and more flaws are replacing old flaws with new flaws every game finally become broken to you? Cause PD haven't done much to alleviate such issues, and you know being a bit critical of something you like isn't a bad thing it's actually the honest thing.

Sounded to me as if GTP_CargoRatt was being critical.

I don't think you have to declare something completely broken to be sufficiently critical.

I don't know, I wouldn't consider them "broken" either, even though I do think they're kind of stupid.
But maybe that's perspective. I guess I just see almost everything as usually being somewhat flawed. I've yet to ever play a game, see a web site, use an appliance, where I think to myself - oh wow, there is little that could improve this.

Like if they were driving as if they were completely drunk, going off track, unable to adhere to a driving line at all... then I'd maybe call them broken.
Otherwise "flawed" seems more accurate, if not as exciting as extreme talk is.

 

[Exorcet]

Slider? And which result of using it do you expect? That with level "God" or somewhat of AI you couldn't even pass one car with the same PP during 3 laps from last place! In reality situation will be similar to this.

The point of the slider would be to find the difficulty that fits you, not to set it to "God mode" which is very easy to balance with qualification.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Sounded to me as if GTP_CargoRatt was being critical.

I don't think you have to declare something completely broken to be sufficiently critical.

He was playing devil's advocate which I'd hardly call critical.

I don't know, I wouldn't consider them "broken" either, even though I do think they're kind of stupid.
But maybe that's perspective. I guess I just see almost everything as usually being somewhat flawed. I've yet to ever play a game, see a web site, use an appliance, where I think to myself - oh wow, there is little that could improve this.

Like if they were driving as if they were completely drunk, going off track, unable to adhere to a driving line at all... then I'd maybe call them broken.
Otherwise "flawed" seems more accurate, if not as exciting as extreme talk is.

I've used plenty that only need minimal improvement either ergonomically or technically. The problem is that I'd understand if PD made various different things other than driving games where the point is to beat AI systems and other features. Sadly that is all they do and you'd think after 10-15 years if anyone was to get a certain aspect perfect it'd be the group that's been doing it the longest. However, it's the opposite which is why I only have negative things to say about AI in GT, there are many things I like about GT and just as many thing I dislike.

 

[watermelon punch]

He was playing devil's advocate which I'd hardly call critical.
I've used plenty that only need minimal improvement either ergonomically or technically. The problem is that I'd understand if PD made various different things other than driving games where the point is to beat AI systems and other features. Sadly that is all they do and you'd think after 10-15 years if anyone was to get a certain aspect perfect it'd be the group that's been doing it the longest. However, it's the opposite which is why I only have negative things to say about AI in GT, there are many things I like about GT and just as many thing I dislike.

Fair enough to have that opinion, I'll grant you.
I just think "broken" is a bit extreme a word to use. Not up to par. Flawed. Problematic.
I hate to sound like I'm arguing semantics, but I think that's what it comes down to. "Broken" is something that doesn't work at all.

Anyway, I thought playing devil's advocate is a form of criticizing.
Maybe something went over my head.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Fair enough to have that opinion, I'll grant you.
I just think "broken" is a bit extreme a word to use. Not up to par. Flawed. Problematic.
I hate to sound like I'm arguing semantics, but I think that's what it comes down to. "Broken" is something that doesn't work at all.

That's fine to not think it's broken, I'm not asking anyone to think that, rather don't criticize and then play the other end to save being involved in an argument with the overly GT fanatical fans. I'm a GT fan but I'm going to be honest when it comes to quality. As far as competition and doing the job of such, it is broken, and that is why I call it such at least some others may do it out of spite though.

Anyway, I thought playing devil's advocate is a form of criticizing.
Maybe something went over my head.

Usually it's a form of not picking a side and being impartial

 

[paul loatman]

I was experiencing this same thing on Matterhorn today, i honestly thought it was a graphical glitch and that the cars couldn't possibly be lifting up 3+ feet into the air for no reason. Guess i was wrong.

I race online on occasion and those are usually the best races i get on GT games, but at the same time, the visual latency of other cars online makes it unrealistic, when you look at other cars on screen when racing online they aren't visually represented accurately and it makes it difficult to not make contact on occasion, at the very least you have to provide plenty of room and close racing almost always results in contact.

I would rather have smart and fast AI so that i can just get on GT and race whenever i want in whatever car i want on whatever circuit i want, i don't want to go online and spend half an hour looking for a race i may possibly enjoy with no guarantee of anything.

Someone mentioned GTR Evo/Race 07 AI, that's what GT needs, i used to love racing against the AI on 110% in GTR Evo, best racing against a computer opponent i've ever had.

 

[watermelon punch]

Usually it's a form of not picking a side and being impartial

Does everything have to come down to picking one extreme opinion or another? (And adhering to it stringently?)
Why does there have to be sides?
Because you're either with us or against us? I think this issue (like most issues) is more nuanced than that.

I think the AIs are working fine for the newbies. And I think that's who they're for.

 

[diptob79]

I saw it too.

I think something related with suspension calculation /formula.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Does everything have to come down to picking one extreme opinion or another? (And adhering to it stringently?)

Why does there have to be sides?

...no one is saying there has to be a side, but if your going to critique just critique is all I was saying. You can look around the forum and see who has picked a side like a political party so...

Because you're either with us or against us? I think this issue (like most issues) is more nuanced than that.

I think the AIs are working fine for the newbies. And I think that's who they're for.

Seem a bit paranoid, I already explained that it seems some people are afraid to critique because others will attack them for it and I'm saying don't be is all. The fact that you are saying the with or against only shows why people don't want to be critical or favoring.

Problem with that analysis for the newer players is PD know and have talked about there long term fanbase. Thus it makes hardly any sense to have a one sided AI system when common sense would inform anyone that differing skill levels play. So it would be a good idea to have a option that allows for difficulty settings in GT life.

 

[Traviizter]

What has this got to do with the force that the AI are capable of braking at IE so much force that Its lifting the rear wheels 2ft off the ground ?

If you're using a compact car (like the Alfa MiTo) and you brake hard, the rear wheels will lift too. It's just part of the new physics, and it's pretty awesome. So yeah, don't blaem the AI for using the same force as you, but I do agree that timing of their braking is off.

 

[paul loatman]

I saw it too.

I think something related with suspension calculation /formula.

Does GT6's AI actually use the same physics as the player? If they do, then that explains why they're so slow. No AI would be able to handle driving this physics engine. In games like GTR Evo and rFactor the AI doesn't use complicated physics which allows for them to drive at a similar pace as the player.

 

[watermelon punch]

...no one is saying there has to be a side, but if your going to critique just critique is all I was saying. You can look around the forum and see who has picked a side like a political party so...
Seem a bit paranoid, I already explained that it seems some people are afraid to critique because others will attack them for it and I'm saying don't be is all. The fact that you are saying the with or against only shows why people don't want to be critical or favoring.

I'm not worried about what people think of my opinion. I have some pretty strong opinions about a variety of things. Though I don't see any "weakness" in being diplomatic, or having a NON-extreme viewpoint about something.

I'm just sincerely not seeing this issue as a make or break one.
Yes, the AIs are often stupid. And I'm still convinced the AI was brake-checking me!

I too wonder why they don't have difficulty settings in GT6. But then again, I'm not too disappointed myself that they don't.

Problem with that analysis for the newer players is PD know and have talked about there long term fanbase. Thus it makes hardly any sense to have a one sided AI system...

In the recent interview (GTPlanet News), he says outright that it's the newbies they're going for in the career area, and that more experienced people have the options to play online or make their own challenges, and that there will be more challenges in seasonals, etc.
I don't think it could be stated any plainer than that.
And it does make sense if they've got to prioritize, and don't see catering the career mode single-player to long term fans, as a priority.

Truth is, I wonder how many die-hard long-time, experienced fans really care about single-player anymore anyway.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I'm not worried about what people think of my opinion. I have some pretty strong opinions about a variety of things. Though I don't see any "weakness" in being diplomatic, or having a NON-extreme viewpoint about something.

I'm just sincerely not seeing this issue as a make or break one.
Yes, the AIs are often stupid. And I'm still convinced the AI was brake-checking me!

That's great you don't worry about what others think of your opinion I was talking in general. It's quite the contradiction you have there you don't see the issue I had and you don't like how others are are claiming one thing about another persons views. Yet you've just gone and claimed I'm making an extreme view point, because of the fact that the idea or the definition of competition is to be competitive and when it doesn't do it or actually yields I call it broken... Yet that is some how an extreme point though the evidence seems to indicate it isn't as extreme as you'd lead some to believe.

I too wonder why they don't have difficulty settings in GT6. But then again, I'm not too disappointed myself that they don't.

Well obviously we differ on that, great thing about being subjective.

In the recent interview (GTPlanet News), he says outright that it's the newbies they're going for in the career area, and that more experienced people have the options to play online or make their own challenges, and that there will be more challenges in seasonals, etc.
I don't think it could be stated any plainer than that.
And it does make sense if they've got to prioritize, and don't see catering the career mode single-player to long term fans, as a priority.

No one is asking it to be a priority, if you somehow see the rational in a difficulty setting, then how does it escape you here? Also Kaz has said a multitude of things over the years and one of them is what I've said and the other is what you've said. The man has contradicted himself many times as well. There is no definite, just something that fits your argument or mine, and this is why I say why choose when you can implement something that fits all categories like a difficulty slider, adjuster whatever.

Truth is, I wonder how many die-hard long-time, experienced fans really care about single-player anymore anyway.

Gee cause some people like certain things, you know that whole bit...

 

[bs13]

It's really disappointing to hear the AI is bad. GT6 needs a good AI because I figure most of my friends will move on to the PS4 within a year. I also think the game will be hacked to pieces and racing online will be a crapshoot.

You shouldn't need to use workarounds to make a good offline race. That is a sure sign of bad game design. This game needs to do away with seasonal races (not TT's and DT's) and Arcade mode. They need replaced with a fully customizable Event Generator that pays credits based on your settings. All settings like track/s, cars, difficulty, laps, etc. can be selected by the user or randomized. Of course the AI needs to be decent with difficulty and aggressiveness sliders. These races need to pay out about 100,000 credits per minute. I think this is fair considering there are 1200 car and because it is less than GT5's seasonal payouts. IMO any competent programmer should be able to accomplish this easily.

GT5 will be pretty much dead once online and seasonals are shutdown. I don't want to see GT6 suffer the same fate. Adding an Event Generator that pays credits would be a good solution so we could keep playing the game 10 years from now.

So in conclusion a good customizable AI is necessary along with a customizable Event Generator that pays credits. This is necessary because there is no guarantee online will be around forever and in an unhacked state. It is also necessary because I want to play the game my way and not PD's.

 

[watermelon punch]

Gee cause some people like certain things, you know that whole bit...

Yes, but do enough die-hard long-time fans like single-player so exclusively to make it a priority?

Broken IS an extreme term - because it means BROKEN for EVERYONE.
And it's not broken to everyone.
If it was broken to everyone, and also that important - everyone would have stopped buying Gran Turismo games long ago, as you say that the AI have been awful for years.
I'm not calling you extreme, I'm calling the word "broken" extreme.

And that's one extreme comment I'll stand by. And I don't care who thinks what of that extreme opinion.

 

[enagee]

People who have played GSC 2013 will know what AI is all about.
I had an AI car right behind for almost half a lap without hitting me.....same powered cars will overtake you on a straight, Ai will take different lines and even crash into themselves .
With Gt5 /GT6 it's like a big block landed in front of you from no where...This really kills your rhythm .

All we need is an Ai slider to adjust to individual taste. After all these years am surprised pd don't feel the need to make their AI intelligent .

On a different note ...GT6 sucks without shuffle

 

[RSnider]

This isn't a fix for the wheel lifting and early braking AI, but if you find that you're steamrolling the AI with a stock vehicle, try adding ballast (in body tuning section) and reducing power output (in engine tuning section). This can help to offset the AI's poor cornering abilities and make races more challenging.

My biggest complaint, however, is that you start in last place in every race. This means you and your car must be significantly faster than the AI by default in order to overtake the leader before the checkered flag. At best, the closest competition possible would result in you catching the leader near the end of the final lap, but you will still be significantly faster per lap. A better system would have much faster AI and allow qualifying. That way, close competition would result in you battling for position over several laps, instead of playing catch-up for several laps. Then again, maybe this would be asking too much of the game's engine or programming. Creating AI that behave realistically without merely following scripted actions is no simple feat.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Yes, but do enough die-hard long-time fans like single-player so exclusively to make it a priority?

Broken IS an extreme term - because it means BROKEN for EVERYONE.
And it's not broken to everyone.

How exactly would that apply for everyone that logic makes no sense at all, just like the idea that we'd somehow know if there are enough long term fans for single player. There are many that want to play offline and single player is a good way to do so. There are some who like arcade or rather do photo mode most of the time.

Please explain how it should mean broken for everyone?

If it was broken to everyone, and also that important - everyone would have stopped buying Gran Turismo games long ago, as you say that the AI have been awful for years.
I'm not calling you extreme, I'm calling the word "broken" extreme.

And that's one extreme comment I'll stand by. And I don't care who thinks what of that extreme opinion.

Once again broken isn't a term with a singular meaning you seem to think things mean a set idea and it's absolute, and most obviously not everyone needs to see a certain way for it to be true. It's a subjective manner but the behavior of the AI has been proven, and what has been proven helps point to a non-competitive system. Also people buy things for a variety of reasons whether there is fault in it or not, even if everyone thought the AI was broken your cause and effect isn't true, there are still some that would buy it and not care.

The world isn't black and white like you've made it out to be. However, as you said you didn't come here to debate rather just state a firm opinion you have.

 

[Giulietta73]

People talking about dumbing down their cars - that's all well and good to make it 'more' difficult, heaps of us did that in GT5, before that, and the PP bonus of old seasonals showed heaps of us did that.

But we shouldn't "have" to do that, to make it a 'reasonable' difficulty now should we?

I just opened up the S licience, and there's a bug in the game (I'll put full details somewhere else), which basically meant my 600pp car was going up against the 750pp cars, and with the exception of the straights, I felt very competitive - and was, one with 500 points.

I shouldn't have though, they should've out braked me AND out accelerated me, not just the latter.

Regardless of how you make the game 'more' difficult, I think we should all agree, that the current standard difficulty is too low, and this is a major reason for it.

Totally agree:tup:
I have also noticed a little bit of 'rubber banding' by the AI. Within 3 laps the rabbit gets up to 10-15 secs ahead by the end of lap 2, then on the last I gain on significantly to pass him - yet my lap times do not improve. That's a bit too NFS Shift2. At least in GT5 you could rely on the AI putting in consistent lap times - those GT5 rabbits were consistent rabbits!!!

 

[ShiftingGears]

AI in arcade games is more challenging because it's an arcade where bots can do wonders, they don't know word "physics". It's unrealistic but challenging. GT has own way, with own pluses and minuses in AI

This thread is full of excuses like this that are just total cop-outs. Gran Turismo AI has always been mediocre no matter the level of physics simulation, and there has been numerous racing simulators with utterly superior AI opponents.

Yes, but do enough die-hard long-time fans like single-player so exclusively to make it a priority?

They would if there was decent AI. Many people would rather race in challenging events of their choosing without having to compromise on tracks, race length, car type, race settings and when the event is held, like you constantly have to do when racing online.

 

[Cosbuster]

I can not for the life of me fathom what is so beneath some of you people.

You increase the bot capability, you make racing more difficult.

You hamper your own car's capacity, you increase the difficulty.

WHAT is the freaking difference? Seriously, humans...

Because it's a completely different sort of difficulty. You still pass them when they derp at the corners while they pass you on the straights. It's not racing, it's a joke. The point is not increasing the difficulty for the sake of increasing the difficulty, it's all about having something that resembles a race which isn't the case when you use a fit against imprezas and lancers.

 

[Alss]

Quote="Traviizter, post: 9043458, member: 141631"]If you're using a compact car (like the Alfa MiTo) and you brake hard, the rear wheels will lift too. It's just part of the new physics, and it's pretty awesome. So yeah, don't blaem the AI for using the same force as you, but I do agree that timing of their braking is off.[/quote]



The car the AI was using was a Evo 8 and its wheels lifted 2 ft off the ground , now I love my motorsport even do the odd track day myself and ive never seen such a thing happen in real life, its not awesome its ridiculous and not a simulation of real life .

 

[Force-Feedback]

The braking of the AI reminds me of this

THIS is exactly the AI! Haha! Also looking forward to whatever's coming post Stage 5 (series 5), wasnt it a move then one last series/stage?

Back on topic though, on Simbin games you can put the difficulty up to 120% or more, and at 100% its pretty much close to what the car can handle anyway! And then turn it down all the way to 80% or something for those who find it too difficult, at least they'll drive smoother than GT's AI.

Plus where's the standing starts? (except kart races) As well as races that involve more than 6 cars? I mean, I keep banging on about how things should go back to the feeling and atmosphere of GT1/GT2 but not just the amount of cars we race! I wonder though with the AI if PD can give an easy/normal/hard ai setting if they could just experiment for a moment (in-house) about adjusting how quick the AI drive the cars? At least this is doable for a 2014 patch.

I agree as well that using a slower car is merely to avoid boredom in races. (even though i try and use my S2000 '99 (j) in all the races i can as stock haha )

 

[Spagetti69]

You cannot have AI running the same lap times as yourself if they get a head start every race. (rolling starts).

The main problem is the Rolling starts IMHO. As long as GT promotes rolling starts they have to nerf the AI. It's a joke.

 

[Imari]

I can not for the life of me fathom what is so beneath some of you people.

You increase the bot capability, you make racing more difficult.

You hamper your own car's capacity, you increase the difficulty.

WHAT is the freaking difference? Seriously, humans...

You could set up a race with yourself in an LMP car and the AI in Honda Fits. You could give them a headstart such that you'd have to race really hard to get to the line first.

That's a difficult race, sure. Is it fun? Maybe to some people, but it's a very specific skill set. You've basically set up a time trial where if your total time is less than X, you lose.

Mostly when people talk about having a good race, they're talking about going wheel to wheel, using racecraft, wits and skill to come out on top. Not banging in 5 alien level laps in a row.

There's a big difference between a race that's challenging and fun in the way that a real race might be, and a race that's just arbitrarily hard because you crippled yourself to make it so.