Aliens

[arvin charles]

^ The Chinese UFOs are new to me. I wonder what that 40 min. video looks like...

On a side note, has anyone seen the "I know what I saw" documentary that aired on the History channel? It's quite good. It has some credible people interviewed in it (military officials, airline pilots, law enforcement officers, etc.).

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/i-know-what-i-saw/

 

[FoolKiller]

The pyramid/alien thing always makes me chuckle. Never underestimate the power of having hundreds of thousands of slaves to do your will...

They have whips, Rimmer. Really big whips.

A large majority of the pyramid workers weren't slaves though, they were paid labourers. When the Nile was flooded thousands of farmers needed something to do so they built a big stone structure for their leader who claimed he was a god. This is not to say there weren't slaves though.

And this has only really been brought to the public's attention recently, so it is going to take a while to clear up the misconception that they were slaves. I think the Bible is to blame for that one.

You mean Hollywood's interpretation of the Bible, since the Bible never once mentions pyramids, just building cities, working in brick and mortar, and laboring in the fields. It also points out that only the hebrews were slaves.

Any further interpretation (and I admit everyone makes it out to be that the Hebrews built the pyramids) is nothing more than conjecture, as Exodus never even mentions which pharoah.

 

[Joey D]

You mean Hollywood's interpretation of the Bible, since the Bible never once mentions pyramids, just building cities, working in brick and mortar, and laboring in the fields. It also points out that only the hebrews were slaves.

Any further interpretation (and I admit everyone makes it out to be that the Hebrews built the pyramids) is nothing more than conjecture, as Exodus never even mentions which pharoah.

I don't know, when I was in Catholic school they taught us that the Hebrew slaves built the pyramids. I'm really surprised I didn't turn out stupid from the 8 years I spent there. I think a lot of churches teach a similar message because it seem a lot of Christians I come across have this similar view. It was a big discussion in one of my classes.

 

[Dotini]

The Great Pyramid of Cheops is indeed an enduring and wonderful mystery worthy of study. I have a number of books on it in my library. My favorite is the Secrets of the Great Pyramid by Peter Tompkins.

 

[FoolKiller]

I don't know, when I was in Catholic school they taught us that the Hebrew slaves built the pyramids. I'm really surprised I didn't turn out stupid from the 8 years I spent there. I think a lot of churches teach a similar message because it seem a lot of Christians I come across have this similar view. It was a big discussion in one of my classes.

I believe that the largest cause of misinformation in religion are its followers. People too often get caught up on these tiny details. What the Hebrews were forced to do is inconsequential to the story, but people hear about them working in mortar and somehow picture the pyramids.

I firmly believe that if they were in any way connected to the pyramids that they were done long before the story of Moses (A lot of time is skipped from Joseph to Moses) or it would have been noted in some way in one of the cultures.

As for the idea of aliens creating the pyramids: Why? What purpose does it serve? Why woudl aliens build massive tombs for humans? If we found it acted as some sort of tool then that would be fine, but it seems more like a case of rulers with a god complex combined with a touch of mysticism, or a desire to have their tombs aesthetically pleasing.

 

[Dotini]

As for the idea of aliens creating the pyramids: Why? What purpose does it serve? Why woudl aliens build massive tombs for humans? If we found it acted as some sort of tool then that would be fine, but it seems more like a case of rulers with a god complex combined with a touch of mysticism, or a desire to have their tombs aesthetically pleasing.

I do not believe aliens created the Pyramids. But neither do I believe that the Great Pyramid was created as a tomb. There is no evidence that a Pharaoh or anyone else was ever buried in it. When Abdullah Al Mamun, Caliph of Baghdad and patron of the arts and sciences, cleverly broke into the Great Pyramid circa 820, he found the whole thing and its so-called "King's Chamber" quite empty of any treasures or burial, and found no trace of earlier grave robbers. So this begs the question, what was the purpose, or purposes, of the Great Pyramid?

It's always tricky to impute motives to other humans. Even trickier to understand the "whys" of even stranger things like the Great Pyramid. To disentangle the authentic from the phony requires the skills of a Sherlock Holmes.

Rather than indulge in idle speculation, I invite readers to do some elementary research through such literature as that of Tompkins and others. This should prove fun and enlightening, and would improve the quality of further discussion.

As with the rest of you, I believe we have been ill-served by the media and other institutions venerated as "authority". As free individuals we of course have the right and now this opportunity to express our opinions. I have no wish to limit this. But complex topics such as this is a good oppportunity to raise our game.

 

[Joey D]

I've done elementary research on the pyramids, and then went on to do more research then just that. In fact I liked looking at ancient history so much I got a degree in it. In all of my archaeological studies I never came across anything the suggested the pyramids were used for anything other then burial tombs. Sure there are some theories with little or no supporting evidence but why should I be bothered with them?

Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. There just isn't any extraordinary proof to show anything different. It's people like Erich von Däniken that have put some crazy ideas in people's head. Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries: Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology by Kenneth L. Feder is an excellent book about clearing up some huge misconceptions about these ancient structures. I used it when writing my cap stone paper about how Stonehenge was not built by little green men.

 

[Dotini]

Joey, I too have a degree in history (University of Washington, 1971). I've tried to be careful not to make claims that could not be backed up by either direct personal experience or by solid evidence. I'm sure we are in general agreement about the harmful effects of pseudo-science-for-profit which obfuscates matters.

Evidently you are satisfied that there is no mystery or interest to the Great Pyramid. In my case, I've found that the more I dug the more the mystery deepened and the more my cup of enjoyment was filled.

Although I haven't personally visited the pyramids of Egypt, I've visited many prehistoric Indian mounds east of the Mississippi, including the truncated pyramid called Monk's Mound at Cahokia near present day St. Louis. Many of these mounds have been excavated. Some have contained burials but many have not.

If all the answers were at hand, I suppose that we should not be having this conversation.

 

[Joey D]

My degree is in archaeology, but hey close enough. It's just a history degree that allowed me to play in the dirt.

Without me actually going to study the pyramids myself I'll have to make do with what archaeologist and historians come up with. I've only been able to study the results of excavations, view artefacts in museums and check out pictures and videos. I agree there is some mystery around them, but I think trying to read to much into will only create a false aura about them.

Are they remarkable? For sure. Can they be 100% explained? Absolutely not. I'm sure they will be studying the pyramids for year and year to come without getting all the answers they seek. I'm satisfied with what they've found so far and I don't want to jump to any conclusions about the data. I think there might be to many holes that still need filling.

 

[Dotini]

Thanks for that information, Joey. It would be interesting to know what you personally find mysterious or particularly interesting.

When an exhibition of rare ancient Egyptian artifacts came to Seattle a number of years ago, I saw an Old Kingdom vessel, or vase, or cup, that struck my interest. It was tiny, less than 3 inches tall. It was said to be made of a particularly hard mineral, diorite or obsidian, and had a small fluted neck and tiny opening, and the wall so paper-thin that you could see right through it. It had obviously been laboriously hollowed out. Today we might attempt such a work of art with a lathe and hardened tools, and hope for the best. The Old Kingdom is normally thought to have had no metal tougher than copper.

Similarly, giant blocks of granite, some of them 80 tons, were sawn by the pyramid builders from the living rock, transported hundreds of miles from Aswan and lifted hundreds of feet to form the "King's Chamber". Limestone blocks of smaller size were fitted together over common adjoining surfaces of many square feet with a tolerance which did not exceed 1/50th of an inch, this in the outer, casing stones. This is considerably better tolerancing than found in Boeing aircraft (I'm a retired Boeing manufacturing engineer).

Even more impressive feats of ancient engineering are the Trilithons of Baalbeck. These blocks are said to be hewn from granite in remote antiquity and moved miles uphill to form part of a platform upon which Romans later constructed a Temple to Venus. The largest measures 16' x 16' x 70', and is estimated to weigh in at 1,200 tons. Not bad for guys working with bone, wood, copper and hemp.

 

[homeforsummer]

Similarly, giant blocks of granite, some of them 80 tons, were sawn by the pyramid builders from the living rock, transported hundreds of miles from Aswan and lifted hundreds of feet to form the "King's Chamber". Limestone blocks of smaller size were fitted together over common adjoining surfaces of many square feet with a tolerance which did not exceed 1/50th of an inch, this in the outer, casing stones. This is considerably better tolerancing than found in Boeing aircraft (I'm a retired Boeing manufacturing engineer).

I'm not an engineer unlike yourself, but one thought has always struck me when people bring up the tolerances of the stones in the pyramids: over thousands of years, is it not possible that the sheer weight of such big blocks of stone on top of other big blocks of stone, plus the effort of having slid them into position which I'd think was more than enough pressure to turn any imperfections into a fine dust, just reduced the apparent tolerances to much less than they'd be if they were put together using modern methods and constructed in more (and smaller) pieces?

And given that limestone is sedimentary, susceptible to erosion (which is highly likely given thousands of years of desert winds sandblasting the structures), surely it'd be incredibly difficult to determine the genuine realistic tolerance as it was around 4000 years ago when they were built?

I'm not saying you're wrong, and obviously all of the above is just a logical thought process rather than scientific evidence, but there are often fairly simple explanations for historical occurrences.

 

[Dotini]

That's a sensible thought and good question, homeforsummer. It may well be. I don't know. Undoubtedly processes such as grinding and abrasion were used to smooth the surfaces of adjoining blocks. Another thought is that some if not most of the limestone blocks were actually cast, or poured into place, a la pouring modern concrete. This is another way, or theory, of accounting for the unusual specifications found in these structures. According to the very valid scientific idea called "Occam's Razor", the simplest explanation that accounts for the observed data is the one that is to be preferred.

Note: I am not a degreed engineer. Although my degree is in history, I have pursued a technical career.

 

[Public'sTwin]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...e-study-footage-year-hopes-proving-alone.html

http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0909/UFO-development.php

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...ese-scientists-filmed-UFO-for-40-minutes.html

http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/China.htm

http://www.allnewsweb.com/page8958954.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTPTrOfaN0U

These are just a smattering of what's been posted on the internet regarding Chinese UFO's. It doesn't take much effort to find them, only the energy and willingness to try. A good daily source of such Forteana is the clippping service at www.anomalist.com

You cannot cite blurry—and to be frank, quite cliché—"photos" as evidence; yes, it's a UFO- unidentified because the "evidence" is such utter crap. No wonder it'll take them the next twelve months to tell us what it was.

 

[Dotini]

Public'sTwin, thank you for your thoughtful remarks.

Part of the reason photos of UFO's are "blurry", even those taken by scientists under the best of conditions with the best of equipment, is that the UFO's themselves are not solid, hard-edged objects. Their basic form and nature, as far as anyone can tell, is that of a softly glowing ball of light, likely plasma.

Yes, some are capable of changing shape, likely in response to the beliefs and expectations of those viewing them. Apparently (key word) solid craft, with structure and even markings are sometimes seen, but this is not their basic nature. This also applies to the entities which are sometimes seen to emerge from them. To repeat: They are not "real", as we commonly accept it. They are shapeshifters. They are deceivers. Our consciousness and perceptions can be adversely affected by the physical effects of this phenomenon.

Over 20 years ago after fire watchers on the Yakima Reservation in Washington observed orange glowing balls of light emerge from the ground and glide along the ridges, a study by US government sponsored geologists was undertaken. These glowing balls might be understood as the simplest, most elementary and primitive form of UFO's. At length they were able to take high quality close range photographs of the phenomenon. The best description of what was seen on the photographs is that of many glowing lights dancing and sparking inside the spherical, outer glowing ball of light, or fire. A person who is well known to me was involved in this study, and the data that resulted is in accord with my own direct experience with this phenomenon.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[Danoff]

Yes, some are capable of changing shape, likely in response to the beliefs and expectations of those viewing them. Apparently (key word) solid craft, with structure and even markings are sometimes seen, but this is not their basic nature. This also applies to the entities which are sometimes seen to emerge from them. To repeat: They are not "real", as we commonly accept it. They are shapeshifters. They are deceivers. Our consciousness and perceptions can be adversely affected by the physical effects of this phenomenon.

I love it. A perfectly airtight explanation that not only doesn't require a shred of evidence, but which no evidence can possibly contradict. They can look like anything, they'll look like what you expect them to, etc. etc. I could make up any story about any strange encounter and it would fit perfectly into this scenario - the very definition of self-reinforcing delusion.

 

[Azure Flare]

if there is alien life out there, I sure would like to know.

 

[Dotini]

Danoff, I certainly respect your opinion. I make no claim to omniscience. If this were a subject easy to understand and explain, it would have been done long ago and threads of this nature would never be seen in GTPlanet or anywhere else.

I admit the story here is a strange one, hard to accept, possibly harder to deal with with. The whole subject is easy to ridicule and to manipulate by hoaxers, self-promoters; even agencies such as the CIA and US Air Force have used the phenomenon to cover secret projects.

I have attempted for several years to establish a reputation as a credible person over in the GT4 200 A-spec Forum. I sincerely hope that you will accept me as a credible person honestly attempting to deal with a difficult topic, and not delusional. Everything I have stated here is correct and true to the best of my ability to present it. I am a retired Boeing manufacturing engineer with major experience in mountaineering and race car driving. I have a degree and post-graduate education. I am currently an active kart racer with two national championships and 7 regional championships. I own a home in a nice neighborhood of Seattle with the mortgage paid off. This career and these activities are not consistent with those of a delusional person. My true identity is not hard to discover. Feel free to contact me if you feel you require further bona fides.

Neither you nor anyone else here is under any requirement to accept on faith whatever is said. By all means be skeptical, use your best judgment and ask fair, tough questions.

But I would ask you to play by the posted rules and not outright condemn your interlocutors as delusional. Okay?

Respectfully,
Dotini

 

[Danoff]

I have attempted for several years to establish a reputation as a credible person over in the GT4 200 A-spec Forum. I sincerely hope that you will accept me as a credible person honestly attempting to deal with a difficult topic, and not delusional. Everything I have stated here is correct and true to the best of my ability to present it. I am a retired Boeing manufacturing engineer with major experience in mountaineering and race car driving. I have a degree and post-graduate education. I am currently an active kart racer with two national championships and 7 regional championships. This career and these activities are not consistent with those of a delusional person. My true identity is not hard to discover. Feel free to contact me if you feel you require further bona fides.

Do you think that your credibility in other areas applies to this at all? I don't care how qualified, smart, or rational you are in other aspects of your life. What you have described is a scenario that evidence cannot do anything but support. This fits the description of a self-reinforcing delusion. But regardless of whether you think it is true (and regardless of whether or not you are right), you must admit that the scenario you have described is impossible to disprove - and so you're in a very difficult situation. If it's true, you have no way of knowing it.

I want to repeat that because I think it bears repeating. If what you say is true, you have no way of knowing it. Why? Because it cannot be disproven. There is no evidence that would refute it.

You might not have encountered it among the people you know, but there are many many incredibly intelligent people who are capable of falling into the self-reinforcement trap. I've known a good number of such people, some of them are people that I think qualify for the description "genius", and yet they fall into this. So don't take it as a knock on your intelligence, and don't think that I'll decide to believe you just because you have a technical background. There is almost nothing you could have done in your life to help convince me to buy into a self-reinforcing scenario.

But I would ask you to play by the posted rules and not outright condemn your interlocutors as delusional. Okay?

The problem here is that you can't prove that you're not delusional, and nobody can prove that you are. I'm not saying that you're delusional, I'm saying that what you described fits the definition of self-reinforcing delusion. Every piece of evidence anyone could present you with will fit into your belief system. So you'll never lose it, and never be able to justify it.

 

[Dotini]

Danoff, thank you for your respectful reply.

Other than what I have stated as personally observed in the company of others, absolutely nothing I have said is of my own invention. What you have quoted as delusional is my precis of what the noted astronomer and computer scientist, Dr. Jacques Vallee, has written of over the previous five decades in the course of a dozen books. If you must condemn someone as delusional, condemn him too, as I will at least be in good company.

If what has been said is frightening or disturbing to you or anyone else here, I am sorry. I was not aware that this thread on aliens was restricted to children or those afraid to answer the door at night. But childhoods must end, both for us as individuals and us as a species. Part of the maturing process is learning to accept our natural place in the great order of things. If you must step on me, then I am but a stepping stone in your path to maturity. Glad to be of service.

 

[Danoff]

Danoff, thank you for your respectful reply.

Other than what I have stated as personally observed in the company of others, absolutely nothing I have said is of my own invention. What you have quoted as delusional is my precis of what the noted astronomer and computer scientist, Dr. Jacques Vallee, has written of over the previous five decades in the course of a dozen books. If you must condemn someone as delusional, condemn him too, as I will at least be in good company.

I'm not saying that you're delusional, I'm saying that what you described fits the definition of self-reinforcing delusion. Every piece of evidence anyone could present you with will fit into your belief system.

Also, please stop with the appeal to authority fallacy.

If what has been said is frightening or disturbing to you or anyone else here, I am sorry. I was not aware that this thread on aliens was restricted to children or those afraid to answer the door at night. But childhoods must end, both for us as individuals and us as a species. Part of the maturing process is learning to accept our natural place in the great order of things. If you must step on me, then I am but a stepping stone in your path to maturity. Glad to be of service.

I have no idea what I've written that makes you think you frightened me. I assure you that you couldn't be much farther from the truth. Resorting to this kind of tactic - changing the subject and then focusing on that - is beyond pointless. Not only are you going to have a terrifically difficult time convincing me that you've scared me into explaining your logical loop to you, but you're not going to be successful convincing anyone reading this that that's what happened either. And I can only hope that you're not attributing this motive to me in order to make yourself feel better.

If you think my responses here are out of fear that aliens might exist, then you really are delusional.

 

[Dotini]

Okay, I've tried to explain my opinions of "aliens". Some will be doubtful but entertained. Others may be persuaded to a degree where they will read or investigate further. All have been exposed to a meme or a set of ideas which won't go away.

Now we are all atwitter with expectation of your explanations, Danoff! Undoubtedly your belief system is unassailable and has solid foundations. Do you have the courage to be out front with yourself, sir?

 

[Joey D]

Thanks for that information, Joey. It would be interesting to know what you personally find mysterious or particularly interesting.

I think the most interesting thing I find about the pyramids is the organisation that had to go into the whole thing to build it, and for what? You have to be one dickens of a motivator to get thousands of people to haul giant blocks across the landscape for you. Same thing goes with all the other ancient monuments. I know I have a hard enough time getting my buddies to help me move a couch for the basement to the main floor...and I even offer them beer.

Other then that everything else seems entirely possible, with enough people anything can be moved and with the right math and engineering anything can be built precise. But really I have no idea how you coordinate that many people to do something without a rebellion.

I think all to often we forget human ingenuity though and we have a bias towards today's technology thinking that nothing could possibly be done without it.

 

[Mustangmiha]

I'm sorry that I have to be rude, but this is all bulls**t. Aliens don't exsist. Even that I'm a big fan of X-Files.

 

[Joey D]

I'm sorry that I have to be rude, but this is all 🤬. Aliens don't exsist. Even that I'm a big fan of X-Files.

And you know this how?

You really think in this big, huge universe Earth is the only planet to support life?

 

[Danoff]

Now we are all atwitter with expectation of your explanations, Danoff!

Why must I have them? My explanation or lack thereof does not change anything about what you proposed.

 

[Dotini]

I think the most interesting thing I find about the pyramids is the organisation that had to go into the whole thing to build it, and for what? You have to be one dickens of a motivator to get thousands of people to haul giant blocks across the landscape for you. Same thing goes with all the other ancient monuments. I know I have a hard enough time getting my buddies to help me move a couch for the basement to the main floor...and I even offer them beer.

Other then that everything else seems entirely possible, with enough people anything can be moved and with the right math and engineering anything can be built precise. But really I have no idea how you coordinate that many people to do something without a rebellion.

I think all to often we forget human ingenuity though and we have a bias towards today's technology thinking that nothing could possibly be done without it.

Joey, I couldn't agree more with everything you've said here. With regard to the motivation thing, I have a speculation, if that is permitted.

Years ago, a fellow named Julian Jaynes wrote a book called The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. I don't know how it is regarded today in the field of psychology, but it suggests to me that human consciousness may have evolved over time. Today we in the Western world and of the European tradition are all quite strong-willed individualists, sometimes fiercely independent in our thinking and in our ways, always insisting on our individual rights and freedoms. What if long ago men had more of a collective consciousness, somewhat like that of a flock of birds, school of fish, or hive of bees, to use extreme examples, where all men's beliefs and will were bent collectively towards one end? If everyone in a large tribe or nation believed fervently in the same deity, pharaoh, or architect, and all followed the same divinely inspired plan, then all things become possible.

This speculation tends toward the idea that consciousness is not necessarily an individual phenomenon, but is universal, with the individual being a "node", rather than an originator of consciousness.

 

[Exorcet]

I'm sorry that I have to be rude, but this is all bulls**t. Aliens don't exsist. Even that I'm a big fan of X-Files.

First off what aliens are you talking about? The Hollywood ones, or lifeforms not from Earth. I made this topic with the intent to explore the latter. And if you want to try and convince anyone that the latter does not exist/is not plausible, you're going to need a whole lot of evidence.

Even if you're strongly convinced of your beliefs, share your reasoning. I'm interested in hearing it. The discussions going on now are quite interesting, even if I'm mainly spectating at the moment.

 

[Joey D]

Joey, I couldn't agree more with everything you've said here. With regard to the motivation thing, I have a speculation, if that is permitted.

Years ago, a fellow named Julian Jaynes wrote a book called The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. I don't know how it is regarded today in the field of psychology, but it suggests to me that human consciousness may have evolved over time. Today we in the Western world and of the European tradition are all quite strong-willed individualists, sometimes fiercely independent in our thinking and in our ways, always insisting on our individual rights and freedoms. What if long ago men had more of a collective consciousness, somewhat like that of a flock of birds, school of fish, or hive of bees, to use extreme examples, where all men's beliefs and will were bent collectively towards one end? If everyone in a large tribe or nation believed fervently in the same deity, pharaoh, or architect, and all followed the same divinely inspired plan, then all things become possible.

This speculation tends toward the idea that consciousness is not necessarily an individual phenomenon, but is universal, with the individual being a "node", rather than an originator of consciousness.

I think ancient people had to have more of a collective because they didn't have the technology we have today to make life overly easy (this is not to doubt the technology of ancient man though). I can sit at a desk and do all my work with little or no physical effort what-so-ever. I just move my fingers and my work gets done. I don't need to rely on others to accomplish my task. And even if I did have to dig a ditch, I'd just use a backhoe. There is no relying on the guy next to me to give me a hand.

In a forever streamlining world I think it gets easier and easier to focus on the individual rather then the collective. Look at all the stuff we have made just for us, the personal computer, the personal music device, the personal pan pizza, the list goes on and on.

There was also a limitation in the spread of information and ideas. Today I can just on the internet and talk to people all over the world but back then there was very minimal contact with others outside your region...or at least this is what we currently believe. Based on current archaeological data and anthropological theory I'm not 100% sure on that. I'm not sure we, I, give the ancients enough credit for global exploration. But at any rate, even with the best case scenario the spread of information would have been slow. There wasn't time for a new way of thinking to branch out in a given culture. You were in your community and you had to make it prosper.

It's an interesting idea to look at for sure and I'm not entirely sure how to approach why it happened. Realistically I still don't think beings from another world had anything to do with it, but you never know.

 

[Public'sTwin]

Do you have the courage to be out front with yourself, sir?

You don't even know what you've just started.

(The greatest threat to you, I might add, is his apparently infinite patience with people on the internet. I do not have this patience, and is thusly why I've truncated his messages into a simple visual message which can be found here.)

And you know this how?

You really think in this big, huge universe Earth is the only planet to support life?

By definition, they're only alien once they've left their home planet. (Us landing on Mars, for instance, makes us alien to Martians.)

Part of the reason photos of UFO's are "blurry", even those taken by scientists under the best of conditions with the best of equipment, is that the UFO's themselves are not solid, hard-edged objects. Their basic form and nature, as far as anyone can tell, is that of a softly glowing ball of light, likely plasma.

This is an absurd supposition to make with nothing to back it up. Why would they be made of plasma? Why do you insist on using such a vague, general description? "They are made of solid! Or is it gas? Liquid?" What is the plasma made of? Hydrogen? A combination of elements?

Those ridiculous premises brushed aside, being made of something blurry doesn't leave everything else in the parallel focal plane out of focus; to refute that is an exercise in futility: the laws of math and optics preclude any metaphysical debate about cameras/lenses with someone whose arguments are logically and scientifically invalidated at every turn.

 

[Jump_Ace]

I voted that they only exist in movies and that is hard since I'm from McMinnville Oregon where its essentially Area 52 and we have one of the most infamous 'sightings' that got put on the cover of Life magazine (though I can't get my hands on one grrr) and a yearly UFO Festival Parade each May. Everything I've seen from 'footage' and the like isn't concrete enough and pictures are too hazy (imo) for me to believe otherwise. However, I do have an open mind about it since there is all that SPACE out there.

Here is a reference to what I'm talking about with the sighting:

http://ufos.about.com/od/visualproofphotosvideo/ig/Best-UFO-Photographs/1950paultrent-jpg.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMinnville_UFO_photographs

Oh, and we have some of the best wine in the world too

Jerome