Am I Becoming Racist? (rant)

[Vince_Fiero]

This article shows that we are all homo sapiens, there are no races.

I do believe that the feeling is xenophobe, react to things that are different.
Growing up in an other environment will do that to you. Seeing someone in an environment where you do not expect them will even do it.

I have crazy thoughts about all people I meet also those I have xenophoob feelings about.
If I would judge these crazy thoughts, they would be seen as racist (however I do not believe in this term).

My experience:

• Xenophoob reactions are universal (I saw it in North Africans against central Africans, Chinese against Thai and Phillipino, Thai against Indians, etc...)
• recognising you have xenophobe reactions is the sign you past denial!
• how you act on the feeling is more important then what you think, get to know the individual, your eyes will open and you will see them for the human they are
• be on your guard, you need to force yourself not to act on underlaying xenophoob reactions.

For the last one:

• you do have underlaying xenophobe reactions, even if you think you do not
• you can be consiously saying all people are equivalent
• you can be consiously thinking all people are equivalent
• when something goes well, for people that are like you it will be merit, for others it will be luck
• for things that go bad, for people that are like you it is bad luck, for people that are not like you it will be incompetence

The last 2 points will even go as deep as first impressions you have from people, it will determine how you evaluate them afterwards.

Not certain I can give advise on how to "force yourself not to act on underlaying xenophoob reactions", I try to be analytic, but the occasions are rare in my environment.

Other story I got to know this woman at work (our cultural diversity leader), half Turkish, half Arab, grew up in Canada, had a long relationship with someone in Spanish Catalonia and ended up in Belgium. When I had a discussion about the progress some managers could make on understanding their xenophobe tendencies, she stated something like: "will they deliver for us a forceful inclusive message, yes, then the rest is not important".
She also understands (I was really impressed there) everyone need to work on it and having the people at the power to back you up is essential, even if they have a lot of work to do.

 

[Joel]

It's interesting for sure. I don't consciously believe that whites are better than blacks, asians, arabs, etc. But unconsciously, I have prejudice against Arabs, but it's not enough of a prejudice for a big decision (ie. Who to hire, buy from, befriend, etc).

Here's an interesting test. It's quite the eye opener.

http://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/study.html

It is a good indicator of your unconscious "gut reaction" towards certain racial stereotypes.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

To be honest, I LOVE blacks, browns and Asians. And I have to admit (and please don't get angry) but I think that whites are having less of a chance than asians (especially Chinese and Indians). For example take a look at University of Toronto. FULL of Chinese. God damn it they have Chinese food trucks! And another thing I'm REALLY prejudiced to are the Jews and Israelis. Like I will ignore even sometimes. Also that Harvard link. Harvard is racist. My brother tried to apply and the application asked for race. He asked why but he got no reply. His marks are AMAZING (98% avg) and hes an awesome dude. But Harvard is racist.

 

[Keef]

This article shows that we are all homo sapiens, there are no races.

First of all, your link is broken. Secondly, we are all indeed Homo sapiens - humans are certainly all of the same species. Thirdly, races are different than species. Race refers to genetically different groups of humans within the Homo sapien species. We're all humans, but native Japanese people are definitely genetically different than native American, native African, and native European people, etc. Two different terms, two different definitions.

I do believe that the feeling is xenophobe, react to things that are different.
Growing up in an other environment will do that to you. Seeing someone in an environment where you do not expect them will even do it.

I believe there is a thread in here somewhere where people consistently misinterpret what a phobia actually is. Phobias are irrational fears, not fippant prejudices, and phobias aren't part of human nature, they're a very rare exception to it. It's really super annoying when people use the word phobia to describe their preference for chicken sandwiches over hamburgers.

...racist (however I do not believe in this term).

It's in the dictionary so I imagine one would have a hard time not believing in it.

My experience:

• Xenophoob reactions are universal (I saw it in North Africans against central Africans, Chinese against Thai and Phillipino, Thai against Indians, etc...)
• recognising you have xenophobe reactions is the sign you past denial!
• how you act on the feeling is more important then what you think, get to know the individual, your eyes will open and you will see them for the human they are
• be on your guard, you need to force yourself not to act on underlaying xenophoob reactions.

For the last one:

• you do have underlaying xenophobe reactions, even if you think you do not
• you can be consiously saying all people are equivalent
• you can be consiously thinking all people are equivalent
• when something goes well, for people that are like you it will be merit, for others it will be luck
• for things that go bad, for people that are like you it is bad luck, for people that are not like you it will be incompetence

The last 2 points will even go as deep as first impressions you have from people, it will determine how you evaluate them afterwards.

Not certain I can give advise on how to "force yourself not to act on underlaying xenophoob reactions", I try to be analytic, but the occasions are rare in my environment.

Other story I got to know this woman at work (our cultural diversity leader), half Turkish, half Arab, grew up in Canada, had a long relationship with someone in Spanish Catalonia and ended up in Belgium. When I had a discussion about the progress some managers could make on understanding their xenophobe tendencies, she stated something like: "will they deliver for us a forceful inclusive message, yes, then the rest is not important".
She also understands (I was really impressed there) everyone need to work on it and having the people at the power to back you up is essential, even if they have a lot of work to do.

Besides some differences in terminology I generally agree that racism exists, everyone is susceptible to it, and people should try to stem their frustrations so they can get their work done without confrontation, or what have you.

I also believe that people need to quit being so damn stuck up about it. Racism exists, it's natural, it's not really that big a deal. Stereotypes are based on reality, and therefore white people as well as black people should laugh together about both groups because the jokes are most certainly funny. Black people have big noses, white guys can't jump, Indian people smell funny, and Asians all drive 350Zs, at least. Now laugh, because you know it's mostly true otherwise the jokes wouldn't exist. If you're an Asian and have a 350Z parked in your driveway you should be laughing that much harder.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

First of all, your link is broken. Secondly, we are all indeed Homo sapiens - humans are certainly all of the same species. Thirdly, races are different than species. Race refers to genetically different groups of humans within the Homo sapien species. We're all humans, but native Japanese people are definitely genetically different than native American, native African, and native European people, etc. Two different terms, two different definitions.

I've tried to re-establish the link, but it was correct, here is the direct address:
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/minorities.shtml

An indirect article.

The point is just that on a DNA level people can not say what colour your skin will be or if your eyes will be more or less open. There are no real "genetically different groups".

Yes they can trace some origins. For example I'm from a European bloodline, I did not send my DNA in, but it could come back that in my genes, they find traces of groups of North Africa (during the Roman period) and the troops of Genghis Khan (Asian) and thus have trouble predicting if I will look Arab, Asian or European.

Just proves we are all the same and racism is pointless.

The article uses the terminology:

DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans.

I agree that the term is used differently by most people and probably will persist. Not clear if banning the term will help either.

================

Stereotypes are based on reality

Stereotypes exist and are mostly used not to see an individual for what that individual is, but see them for what you think that individual is.
This is actually part of that you do not have the time and will judge most people within the first impression, based on your experience = steriotypes.

Stereotypes are wrong, I have seen white guys that can dance, I have seen black guys that can not jump and I have seen Asians drive Mercedes-Benz.

Going to human rights, I've been thinking about this recently and came to 1 human right:
"right to be seen as an individual, loose from your family, religion or other social groups your frequent"

wonder if I need to add, loose from stereotypes.

 

[Famine]

The point is just that on a DNA level people can not say what colour your skin will be

While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals

"On a DNA level" you most certainly can say what colour your skin should be. Even if you're albino.

Yes they can trace some origins. For example I'm from a European bloodline, I did not send my DNA in, but it could come back that in my genes, they find traces of groups of North Africa (during the Roman period) and the troops of Genghis Khan (Asian) and thus have trouble predicting if I will look Arab, Asian or European.

It's the proportion of the traces that they'll use to predict how you look. If you're 98.5% Germanic, 1.1% African and 0.4% Asian, you'll look European. Or James May.

Just proves we are all the same and racism is pointless.

Which is genetically and physiologically nonsense.

Certain populations have higher incidences of certain genes. Quick example, African-Americans have a higher incidence of genes which make their skin brown. Asians have a higher incidence of genes which make them intolerant to alcohol. Not all African-Americans have brown genes and not all Asians have lightweight genes, but there is a higher incidence in those populations. It's not about "this gene, this gene and this gene make you an Arab", it's about incidences.

Back to skin colour again, have you ever noticed how weird albinos of a predominantly black ethnic origin look? They never look like white people. Why - if it's just skin colour that gives you your ethnic identity? Why do these two people look so damn weird if it's just their skin colour that makes them "African-American" and "White"?

It's due to physiological differences in skull shape. African-origin people have a higher incidence of genes which give their skull one shape, while white people, East Asian-origin people and so on and so forth have a higher incidence of genes which give their skull different shapes (I'll grant you that Obama looks like an Indian [as in subcontinental, not native-American] locum doctor there - but since his mum is white, it's no surprise he has a mix of two sets of skull shape genes).

Skin colour, I'm afraid, really isn't skin deep and there are genetic and physiological differences between races. But there is larger genetic and physiological variation within a race than across them.

And what's the big deal about people largely being different anyway that we have to pretend it's not true?

 

[Reims_]

argh I haven't read the thread, only the title but when i went to America I went there with a clear conscience and no ill views but my tune changed when I saw people getting mugged in San Francisco, people living in tents in Las Vegas and being refused service in a KFC restaurant in Charlotte, North Carolina because I'm white. I just didn't feel safe in certain neighborhoods and I couldn't trust people because of their skin colour. I hate that It ended up that way.

It's just what I've learned from my experiences.




EDIT: I might just clarify things. I didn't feel safe because I thought they (blacks) were the racist ones an in turn of me fearing for my safety around them, that made me dislike? I can't think of a word, but it made me dislike black people. Particularly in the big cities where they sit in mass groups (read: 30 +) and watch people walk past.

 

[Mr. Apex]

 

[Vince_Fiero]

»White, Too White« with images by photographer Andreas Deffner. His portraits of people affected by albinism.

Albinism is a is a congenital disorder, it just makes people look different due to a disorder. Probably makes their life difficult as well.


I take again my favorite quote from the study:

DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans.

From the definition of race (wikipedia):

races are distinct genetically divergent populations within the same species

My conclusion still remains:

• DNA might show some differences between all of us, the differences are not sufficiently large to talk about races.
• If there are no races, racism is nonsense.
• We use the term races and racism, and using is OK to describe, using this to make one group less then the other is nonsense.
• This study is a good argument against everyone that wants to use race against an individual, it just does not make sense.

Famine But there is larger genetic and physiological variation within a race than across them.

And what's the big deal about people largely being different anyway that we have to pretend it's not true?

I think the 2 sentences really bring out the points I wanted to make:

1. Everyone is different, the person looking like you might be more different from you then the one not looking like you.
2. Nobody stated that there are no differences, but the study clearly states no separate classifiable subspecies (races). We might use the term, it is wrong. It might be helpful for us to use the term, it is still wrong. We can see what we mean with the term, it remains wrong. This is a change in terminology that will take more then 1 generation to be accepted.

Reims_ I just didn't feel safe in certain neighborhoods and I couldn't trust people because of their skin colour.

That you "just didn't feel safe in certain neighborhoods and I couldn't trust people" is normal according to me.

• or you are confronted with things you do not know and you are careful
• or you had bad experiences and you are careful

No issues with that.

But "I couldn't trust people because of their skin colour" is wrong.
You can not trust people in a certain context, you need to be careful in a certain context, but attributing this to a group based on skin colour is not correct.

I would have had less issues with a statement like "I couldn't trust black people in certain neighborhoods since they seemed racist and aggressive towards me as a white".

I bet you know some Black people you trust, be careful not to generalise your statements of distrust also against them.
If you do not, take the opportunity in a context where you do not need to be as careful and get to know a black individual, the other human being.

You will get general feelings since you had bad experiences, most of us will, I will!
The point about racism being wrong is that you need to fight those feelings and work on not attributing something that went wrong in one context to the next individual that had nothing to do with the situation that went wrong.
It is work, the fact that you are here, seems to be you want to work on it.
Do the right thing!

e.g. My partner is always attributing some bad properties to "the Portuguese" a large population of immigrants here. I always have to ask, what Nationality does your best male friend have, and you guessed probably, it is "Portuguese". With statements about one group my partner constantly insults her best male friend, the hairdresser that she likes, .....

Other example:
I recently saw a change in the neighborhood, with a Luxembourgish family changing for black immigrants.
I love the black immigrants, they seem to take care of the garden, have a good interaction with the neighbors, inspire trust etc... all things that the Luxembourgish family did not manage.
Why is this so:

• The Luxembourgish family, was a family of simple people that had issues to make ends meet. With loud young adults amongst them.
• The black immigrants are highly educated international diplomats. With young disciplined children.

That they are white or black does not matter, the situation makes the difference. We were more careful with the white family.
However this does not change their rights or the respect we owe them and generalising this to "White Luxembourgish people" would be a disrespect to a large good population.

B.t.w. My partner and me are immigrants as well!

 

[Famine]

I disagree with the conclusion.

If two Chinese people have a child, it'll be morphologically (skull structure, skin tone, facial feature patterns) Chinese - and probably have black hair and alcohol intolerence. The Chinese population has a distinct set of genetic predispositions.

If two Indian (not native American) people have a child it'll be morphologically (skull structure, skin tone, facial feature patterns) Indian - and probably have brown hair. The Indian population has a distinct set of genetic predispositions.

If two Australian Aboriginal people have a child it'll be morphologically (skull structure, skin tone, facial feature patterns) Aboriginal - and probably have black hair. The Aboriginal population has a distinct set of genetic predispositions.

If two African-American people have a child it'll be morphologically (skull structure, skin tone, facial feature patterns) African-American - and probably have black hair. The African-American population has a distinct set of genetic predispositions.

If two Native American people have a child it'll be morphologically (skull structure, skin tone, facial feature patterns) Native American - and probably have black hair. The Native American population has a distinct set of genetic predispositions.

However, where you cross-breed populations from different ethnic origins, you end up mixing up these sets of predispositions. Mix an African-American with a white European and you may end up with someone who looks African-American, looks like European, or anywhere in-between - like Barack Obama, whose father was Kenyan, whose mother was a white European-origin American and he has morphological characteristics of a white European but with East-African-toned skin.


There is a genetic basis for ethnicity and, by using the earlier definition of race (genetically divergent population within a species), there's a genetic basis for race too. You could easily liken it to dog/cat breeds. Two black labradors make a load more black labradors. A black labrador and a chocolate labrador make a bunch of each. If either has yellow labrador in the last 8 generations, an occasional yellow or hybrid may fall out too. But two black labradors with nothing but other labrador in their lineage won't ever drop out a dalmatian or weimaraner - despite very close familial links between the breeds they are genetically divergent populations within the same species.


Human race even work on micropopulations too. The Dominican Republic - the other half of the island Hispaniola, shared with Haiti - recognises a third gender state because of the high incidence of 5ARD (a genetic trait) which results in an intersex. They are technically a "genetically divergent population within the same species" (though not a self-perpetuating one) - and aren't actually that unusual. India and Pakistan are making strides towards recognising the Hijra as a third gender, Indonesia has the Waria, the Middle East has Kanith and I'm sure there's many others.


There is a genetic basis for saying that human "races" exist - though they may not always be what you expect them to be. It's political correctness to pretend that there isn't and that there's no difference. The issue is whether it's a problem or not - I don't have any issue that the black guy over there is different to me, but then he's probably no more different than the next white guy I see.

 

[Reims_]

@ Vince_Fiero, Until you've been to some of the larger American cities with large groups of inner city, unemployed black's it's hard for me to explain what it's like (and for all I know you have, which makes me look like a fool).

They will sit in big groups near Union Square (The tourist area and centre of) San Francisco and watch the public, asking for cigarettes or change and generally harrassing people. I saw a lady step out of Bloomingdales and one of them pushed her down and stole her bags. He then ran back through the group as they cheered him on. That's only one instance in my 2 month trip. The word 'savages' springs to mind and if I hadn't have gone for a holiday and seen it for myself I wouldn't have a racist bone in my body. As it stands, their behaviour that I saw has changed me - and it's their own fault.


EDIT: And I'm aware I'm generalising a whole race. I'm just posting what I've learnt from my experiences

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

I disagree with the conclusion.

If two Chinese people have a child, it'll be morphologically (skull structure, skin tone, facial feature patterns) Chinese - and probably have black hair and alcohol intolerence. The Chinese population has a distinct set of genetic predispositions.

If two Indian (not native American) people have a child it'll be morphologically (skull structure, skin tone, facial feature patterns) Indian - and probably have brown hair. The Indian population has a distinct set of genetic predispositions.

If two Australian Aboriginal people have a child it'll be morphologically (skull structure, skin tone, facial feature patterns) Aboriginal - and probably have black hair. The Aboriginal population has a distinct set of genetic predispositions.

If two African-American people have a child it'll be morphologically (skull structure, skin tone, facial feature patterns) African-American - and probably have black hair. The African-American population has a distinct set of genetic predispositions.

If two Native American people have a child it'll be morphologically (skull structure, skin tone, facial feature patterns) Native American - and probably have black hair. The Native American population has a distinct set of genetic predispositions.

However, where you cross-breed populations from different ethnic origins, you end up mixing up these sets of predispositions. Mix an African-American with a white European and you may end up with someone who looks African-American, looks like European, or anywhere in-between - like Barack Obama, whose father was Kenyan, whose mother was a white European-origin American and he has morphological characteristics of a white European but with East-African-toned skin.


There is a genetic basis for ethnicity and, by using the earlier definition of race (genetically divergent population within a species), there's a genetic basis for race too. You could easily liken it to dog/cat breeds. Two black labradors make a load more black labradors. A black labrador and a chocolate labrador make a bunch of each. If either has yellow labrador in the last 8 generations, an occasional yellow or hybrid may fall out too. But two black labradors with nothing but other labrador in their lineage won't ever drop out a dalmatian or weimaraner - despite very close familial links between the breeds they are genetically divergent populations within the same species.


Human race even work on micropopulations too. The Dominican Republic - the other half of the island Hispaniola, shared with Haiti - recognises a third gender state because of the high incidence of 5ARD (a genetic trait) which results in an intersex. They are technically a "genetically divergent population within the same species" (though not a self-perpetuating one) - and aren't actually that unusual. India and Pakistan are making strides towards recognising the Hijra as a third gender, Indonesia has the Waria, the Middle East has Kanith and I'm sure there's many others.


There is a genetic basis for saying that human "races" exist - though they may not always be what you expect them to be. It's political correctness to pretend that there isn't and that there's no difference. The issue is whether it's a problem or not - I don't have any issue that the black guy over there is different to me, but then he's probably no more different than the next white guy I see.

I enjoyed reading that, now if only i had darker skin do as not to get sunburnt soo easilly. I also like the sound of being able to get drunk on less, save me a packet.

As for Racism, 'naturally/subconciously/or maybe socially taught' i am a Racist. I don't act upon my feelings, but i do know that they exist. Is it a colour thing? hell no, it's a foreigner thing. Can a foreigner by identified by colour, yes.

Quite simply, i naturally trust those of a similar genetic make-up to myself. I can read their expressions easilly, i can understand thier tone, thier humour and can tell if they are about to become violent. My natural trust has let me down in the past, but thats just me being gullible.

Humans of vastly different genetic make-up to myself i have to learn to trust. When visiting USA two years ago, i spent time in San Francisco, LA and Vegas.

San Francisco,driving across the bridge at night to OAKLAND, scared the hell out of me. I was following the Sat-Nav for WALMART, looking for a bargain, and whilst driving through oakland i ran at least 10 red lights, purely because i was afraid to stop. I had no prior knowledge of the make-up of oakland, in fact i had never heard of it before.
When in WALMART, the wife and i were the only two white people in the store. The looks we got i'll never forget. The staff were lovely, but the other shoppers scared the crap out of me. Was i scared because of the unknown? When my gut feeling said if you stop at a red light someone will get you, was that me being racist?
The next morning, the holiday rep, who was black, informed me that i should never cross that bridge again, its too dangerous. Was my gut feeling correct? or was i being racist.


Vegas, a local woman of asian origin tried to con me, i was having none of it. Her backup suddenly demanded money off me, all asian men, all small but quite angry. I was scared but not as much, wee asian men didn't look as scarey as 7ft Black men walking around Oakland. I'm a 6ft+ leprechaun, and felt quite safe, if they had all been stereotype Kung Fu experts, i'd have been in trouble.
Later on that visit, i saw a small chinese toddler walking towards the main road as her father took a picture of a casino, i grabbed the childs arm before she stepped onto the street and then took her back to her father. He shouted at me in chinese and hit me accross the arm. Unless a bruised arm is a cultural thankyou in China, i now have unfortunate preconceptions about the whole of Asia. Watching Tokyo Drift didn't make me feel much better on the journey home either.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

I disagree with the conclusion.

And you have the full right to do so.


I had the next strange thought:

In the genes you can see if you are a man or a woman.
Yet this is seen as irrelevant on the race you belong to.

It seems that the scientists that worked on that paper I brought in the discussion, saw the differences they found in human DNA, irrelevant for race.

I must say it supports a point I wanted to make since long, so I gladly use it.

=========================

As you say, you use race to categorise, it makes makes conversation easier.
As long people do not misappropriate properties to these races, I do not see harm in it.

I met several persons that for you are 100% Chinese race (father and mother were native Chinese). When I talk to them, they are 100% Belgian culture, most of them never set a foot in China.
So race is only about looks.
Racism, is for me judging them as a group.

So even if I adopt races to describe groups, racism for me does not make any sense, since it puts the group before the individual and no individual will have the properties of the group. Just like no family has 2.3 children, which is the property of families in some countries

==========================

For the other discussions:
* yes I know parts of the world where people will be racist against me, it is very strange when you hear a dad call his children, "come and look, come and look, a rich white guy" or when a dog lets everyone pass without a sound, but starts barking like crazy at you passing a bit later.
* yes I know groups of people that I will protect myself from in certain parts of towns.
* yes I believe local people when they say do not go there it is dangerous

But in the end I need to work on myself and say,
* these people in this context, I have to be careful about
* when I see an individual I still have to judge the individual.

Nobody says it is easy, I read earlier in the thread someones black parents having prejudice against whites and finding arguments in recent encounters with whites that support their prejudice.
I bet if we want to we can find arguments that will prove our prejudice to be justified as well.

However I have seen white hooligans, white thieves, white no-goods in certain areas. But if I would see all whites like that it would include me.

It is actually very similar to the relationship between young people, most parents of young girls will think the young boys are only out to do one thing. Same as all girls only are there to marry into a "good" family.
Now remember when you were in this situation, is this position of the father the best or should they look to you as an individual?

So:

1. you need to be prudent, some situations have more risk.
2. when looking at an individual, put yourself in their place and ask yourself if you would you like to be judged on your own characteristics or on the image that person has from the group you belong too. Then do the right thing.

 

[Famine]

I met several persons that for you are 100% Chinese race (father and mother were native Chinese). When I talk to them, they are 100% Belgian culture, most of them never set a foot in China.
So race is only about looks.

Yes and no.

Culture is not race. Being opposed to Jews isn't racism - it's anti-semitism. Disliking people from other countries is not racism - it's xenophobia.

Race is a divisor of ethnicity. "Chinese" isn't a race - it's a nationality. "East Asian" is a race (characterised by facial morphologies and skin tone/elasticity) with subsets depending on local population forcing that most people can't distinguish. This is why John Lone - of East Asian origin (Hong Kong/Macau) - can play Hong Kong's Ricky Tan, Japan's Kinjo and Mongolia's Shiwan Khan (Rush Hour 2, The Hunted, The Shadow) on-screen - or, if you're slightly older, Mako who, despite being Japanese, played Tibetan, Chinese and Korean on-screen.

Your Belgian friends are Belgian by nationality and East Asian by ethnicity - whether or not they've ever been to China or observe its customs. It's not about where they've been or how they behave, but where their genes have come from that determine this.

Racism, is for me judging them as a group.

No. Racism is using where someone's genes have come from to ascribe behaviours and origins to them.

No doubt your East-Asian origin Belgian friends will have been told to "go home" or asked for a "number 14 with fried rice" by racists - who believe that because they look "Chinese" they must be Chinese. Perhaps, on a less unkind front, it's been assumed that they're good at maths, work hard or drive a Lexus. Again, people determining how they behave or where they're from based on their looks - it doesn't have to be mean-spirited to be racist.

So even if I adopt races to describe groups, racism for me does not make any sense, since it puts the group before the individual and no individual will have the properties of the group.

Since race is only ethnicity then yes, the individual will have the properties of the group. A black guy will be black (unless he's albino). It's not racist to note this.

Racism is ascribing behaviours and origins to the individual because he's from a genetic grouping. The ethnicity is ignored - save as an easy identifier - and replaced with behaviours and origins. A black guy is characterised as being a car thief, or fond of fried chicken, because he's black. It is racist to note this.

 

[magburner]

Quite simply, i naturally trust those of a similar genetic make-up to myself. I can read their expressions easilly, i can understand thier tone, thier humour and can tell if they are about to become violent. My natural trust has let me down in the past, but thats just me being gullible.

This is a very good point you are making, and I find that it rings true with my own life experiences, but with a slight twist.

I am mixed race, my father was from Jamaica, and my mother was Welsh. It is unfortunate that I was born with 'black', because apart from my skin colour, I am white. I have lived exclusively in white communities, and besides my father, and my sister, I do not know of any other coloured people, nor do I want to.

I have always felt more comfortable amongst white people as I understand them completely. Their history, their values, and their sense of humour are familiar to me. Like you too, I distrust foreigners, and those that do not hold the same values as the community I live in.

Some may say that I have sold out, but I don't believe that I have. When I was a child I was encouraged to discover my roots, and I did - my white roots. 👍

 

[Keef]

@ Vince_Fiero, Until you've been to some of the larger American cities with large groups of inner city, unemployed black's it's hard for me to explain what it's like (and for all I know you have, which makes me look like a fool).

They will sit in big groups near Union Square (The tourist area and centre of) San Francisco and watch the public, asking for cigarettes or change and generally harrassing people. I saw a lady step out of Bloomingdales and one of them pushed her down and stole her bags. He then ran back through the group as they cheered him on. That's only one instance in my 2 month trip. The word 'savages' springs to mind and if I hadn't have gone for a holiday and seen it for myself I wouldn't have a racist bone in my body. As it stands, their behaviour that I saw has changed me - and it's their own fault.


EDIT: And I'm aware I'm generalising a whole race. I'm just posting what I've learnt from my experiences

A lot of blacks' troubles are actually made worse by government intervention. Take Over-the-Rhine in Cincinnati, for instance. Throughout a lot of the area's modern history a guy named Buddy Ray made a name for himself leading an anti-displacement movement, supposedly helping the poverty stricken people occupying OTR. He literally wanted to turn the city into a haven for poor blacks - he wanted to keep them poor and keep them stupid. He convinced the city through his money and control over the people that this was the best approach. Eventually he was murdered by some homeless drug addict, the same kind of people he thought he was helping. His philosophy was totally backwards and was supported by the government. Over-the-Rhine is now among the most dangerous places in the country, and includes the most dangerous neighborhood in the country based on local crime rates. I've been there numerous times recently, and it's a whole other world, quite scary to me but really intriguing.

There are so many things that factor into why inner-city folk behave the way they do. You can't just pin it one one reason, it's just as equally their fault as it is the government's fault. The only problem is that because they're poverty stricken and dumb they don't have the power or tools to undo the damage that has been done, so they just stay the way they are. Efforts to help only make the situation even worse. Look at Chicago. Multiple neighborhoods are listed among the most dangerous in the States, swaths of Chicago's south side are a complete no-go zone, and now one of the people that turned it into a war zone is our damn president. The efforts of the Chicago politicians were directly in line with Buddy Grays - absolute ruin and total control. They're not happy until they've turned people into their little play things. It's gotta be some sort of psychological disorder, it's that ridiculous. This is what happens when governments start putting people in groups.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

This is what happens when governments start putting people in groups.

Putting people in groups is the start off all discrimination (racial, religious, age, sexual orientation, ....) but is also an essential way of us to take decisions quickly enough to survive.

The main point people need to do is put the right value to it:

• Groups & accompanying prejudice are needed for quick, safe live decisions.
• Judging an individual on prejudice based on the group they belong too is doing injustice to the individual. An indvidual should be judged on facts about the individual only, not what you think their kind is like!

I think the above is not what you meant though, you seem to mean a form of "Ghettoize" a certain area. I guess it is very similar in the end, you create a us an them feeling and people group in their minds more easily.

I always try to look around me:

• People with more money then me or less money then me
• People with higher and lower IQ then me
• People coming from better or worse neighborhoods then me

I know good and bad people in any single one of these groups.

Look at Chicago. Multiple neighborhoods are listed among the most dangerous in the States, swaths of Chicago's south side are a complete no-go zone, and now one of the people that turned it into a war zone is our damn president.

I find this a hard accusation and as outsider can not judge this easily.
Can you name functions, time periods and main initiatives this is based on?

 

[JSkeezi]

I have never heard anyone sound so WEAK in my life(Danoff). Damn the black man.......he takes over EVERYTHING.......Basketball.....Football.......Golf......Tennis(sorry those are black women)......Music...... White women(LOL) and now the Presidency! WaaWaaWaa.....we only had a 500yr headstart and theyre still right along side of us and in most cases passing us.....WaaaWaaaaaWaaaaa......I hate those darkies with their 10in. @#$%^......Let me ask you this Danoff.....how would you feel if your ancestors did 500 yrs. of FREE LABOR....that you are the beneficiary of? With that type of head start you still have the nerve to complain.....you sound VERY WEAK! Why not start up your own company......why do you have to go to another man an ask for a job......not very qualified/certified yourself huh? As a God fearing individual....I don'y have any problems with any race of Gods people....white.......black........brown.......yellow etc etc. but I hate weak whiny people who want to blame their lack of success on someone else success, and to answer your question.......NO your not becoming racist.....your becoming a weak little girly man and it shows!!

Be honest Danoff......a black guy stole your girlfriend did'nt he?LOLOLOLOL

 

[Joey D]

Did the Lansing public schools not teach you sentence structure? Just asking.

On race though, as someone who's studied anthropology I can't understand race for the life of me. They are just labels put on us by society to make things easier to categorise I suppose. I don't understand racism either, it would be like hating all blue Corvettes and only loving red ones. All the same car, just a different exterior.

 

[JSkeezi]

Uhh....Joey D....don't be so anal. This is a blog not an college essay. Good point on the topic at hand though......there is nothing better than an non-racist white guy : ) lol

 

[Joel]

Did the Lansing public schools not teach you sentence structure? Just asking.

On race though, as someone who's studied anthropology I can't understand race for the life of me. They are just labels put on us by society to make things easier to categorise I suppose. I don't understand racism either, it would be like hating all blue Corvettes and only loving red ones. All the same car, just a different exterior.

I agree, sure, there's exterior differences, different bone structure, etc. But nothing that actually matters.

Uhh....Joey D....don't be so anal. This is a blog not an college essay. Good point on the topic at hand though......there is nothing better than an non-racist white guy : ) lol

Uhh, yeah. Might want to read this.

https://www.gtplanet.net/aup/

 

[NISM0_SKYLINE]

It's Lansing......., I don't know.

And the Blue and Red Corvette comparison is a good way of looking at it. I'm not racist, but when you see the Blacks, Mexicans, Asians, or even other whites doing something wrong, like gang violence, you tend to look down on them in a negative fashion. Living in Michigan, we hear a lot about Detroit and how dangerous it is and such. It's tough to explain why it's downhill because anyway I explain it, it'll come out sounding racist. I think it all depends on who is talking and who is listening to that person. You could have no idea about racism, but say one thing wrong to someone and offend them. Now, there are people who will not listen to and sense and just think, oh they're black, so they're bad. That to me is just ignorance to the fact that it's not really about what you see. That's just what I think and believe even know I really don't tend to worry about different races much.

I think one of the coolest thing with races is how there's people in every race who we have something in common with. The most recent thing I can think of is at the dag race last weekend, there was everybody from the classic white hot rodder to the big black guys with the beanies and large clothing to the Asain family on vaction enjoying every minute of it. Everyone was the same there and no one was looking at each other weird or negatively. We were all there to just to see the cars and have fun. And that's how it is race I go to and every spoting event.

And just a question, but is Africa the birth place of the early human? I thought I heard that somewhere.

 

[Joey D]

And just a question, but is Africa the birth place of the early human? I thought I heard that somewhere.

Hominids are thought to have originated in Africa, the fossil record back that far is scattered at best but we do have evidence dating back 7 million years.

And the number one reason why Detroit had it's downfall was due to racism, the race riots in the 1940's and then again in the 1960's.

 

[JSkeezi]

Thats why they call Africa the MOTHERLAND!

 

[Joey D]

They call Russia the motherland too.

 

[Keef]

I have never heard anyone sound so WEAK in my life(Danoff). Damn the black man.......he takes over EVERYTHING.......Basketball.....Football.......Golf......Tennis(sorry those are black women)......Music...... White women(LOL) and now the Presidency! WaaWaaWaa.....we only had a 500yr headstart and theyre still right along side of us and in most cases passing us.....WaaaWaaaaaWaaaaa......I hate those darkies with their 10in. @#$%^......Let me ask you this Danoff.....how would you feel if your ancestors did 500 yrs. of FREE LABOR....that you are the beneficiary of? With that type of head start you still have the nerve to complain.....you sound VERY WEAK! Why not start up your own company......why do you have to go to another man an ask for a job......not very qualified/certified yourself huh? As a God fearing individual....I don'y have any problems with any race of Gods people....white.......black........brown.......yellow etc etc. but I hate weak whiny people who want to blame their lack of success on someone else success, and to answer your question.......NO your not becoming racist.....your becoming a weak little girly man and it shows!!

Be honest Danoff......a black guy stole your girlfriend did'nt he?LOLOLOLOL

Congrats. You've officially lumped yourself into a group you may not want to be in. One for people who lack grammar, write poorly, refuse to think critically, are very judgmental.

The irony is giving me a headache.

On race though, as someone who's studied anthropology I can't understand race for the life of me. They are just labels put on us by society to make things easier to categorise I suppose. I don't understand racism either, it would be like hating all blue Corvettes and only loving red ones. All the same car, just a different exterior.

I'm not so sure what you mean by you not understanding race. Because you've studied anthropology I'd expect you to understand it better than any of us. Race is the word they picked to describe a group of people with similar genetic features. It's readily obvious that people of African heritage have heads and faces with different shapes, especially, than peoples from western Europe. Even within Europe, you can often tell and eastern person from a western person by their facial features. Middle eastern people have distinct features and colors, just as Asians, Pacific Islanders, South American, the Caribbean, everywhere. Race is just a word to describe those groups.

While discrimination is very easily understood and completely natural, I'm getting a blank when it comes to reasons why hate manifests itself in people's opinions. Sure, black people have greasy hair, whatever. But why would you hate somebody for having funny hair? Indian people smell funny, but why hate them for it?

I don't even want to finish that paragraph because it's not my real opinion. Having to use a slippery public phone is gross, and the smell of curry makes me want to hurl. I know what's wrong with thinking like that, so it's not like I'm some raging racist or anything. It's just that, honestly, I just feel weird even typing about it. Eww. Curry.

My buddy Ahmad showed up the other day, I hadn't seen him in a while. He's a pretty cool dude, we get along well, he's grown up quite a lot since he graduated high school a few years after me. His parents watch Al-Jazeera all day and smell like curry. Fact. Can facts be racist?

 

[WVUscion]

While discrimination is very easily understood and completely natural, I'm getting a blank when it comes to reasons why hate manifests itself in people's opinions. Sure, black people have greasy hair, whatever. But why would you hate somebody for having funny hair? Indian people smell funny, but why hate them for it?

I don't even want to finish that paragraph because it's not my real opinion. Having to use a slippery public phone is gross, and the smell of curry makes me want to hurl. I know what's wrong with thinking like that, so it's not like I'm some raging racist or anything. It's just that, honestly, I just feel weird even typing about it. Eww. Curry.

My buddy Ahmad showed up the other day, I hadn't seen him in a while. He's a pretty cool dude, we get along well, he's grown up quite a lot since he graduated high school a few years after me. His parents watch Al-Jazeera all day and smell like curry. Fact. Can facts be racist?

I think it depends. For instance you expressed your distaste for curry. Assumedly this distaste would cross racial boundaries, but would effect a racial group more if they were to have a diet primarily of curries. Would you not like hanging out with me (white, anglosaxon american) if I smelled like curry as well? If the answer is yes then you aren't being racist, you just hate curry. However if you don't like hanging out with a certain racial group because you assume they all smell like curry, when many of them likely do not, then you are being racist.

The same can be said for almost any other situation. I can hate illegal immigration, and therefore have negative thoughts towards many hispanics in america. However that doesn't mean I would immediately believe all hispanics in america are illegal immigrants. It means that if I found out they were (or found out that anyone else was regardless of ethnicity/nationality) then I would immediately have a distaste for them.

 

[Danoff]

Ah, the trolls have come out to play - and with 16 whole posts to this username.

I have never heard anyone sound so WEAK in my life(Danoff). Damn the black man.......he takes over EVERYTHING.......Basketball.....Football.......Golf......Tennis(sorry those are black women)......Music...... White women(LOL) and now the Presidency! WaaWaaWaa.....we only had a 500yr headstart and theyre still right along side of us and in most cases passing us

Well, strictly speaking, we won the race - at least in North America. The black man was well defeated, locked up and enslaved. You know whitey has won when you're working your entire life for free and have no rights.

The only reason black people are right along side us today is because white people recognized the injustice other white people were committing. Not because black people revolted, not because they managed to overcome some sort of head start that white people had (which isn't the case, since mankind originated in Africa), but because white people undid the injustice of others and handed them their birthright out of compassion. Not that this was a gift, they were entitled to it. And not that it makes white people superior in any way to have violated the rights of others.

See, you've missed my entire point (I'm not surprised given the lack of writing skills). My point was that what WHITE people are doing in this country is harming my image of BLACK people. My point is that I have to fight racist thoughts that WHITE people are responsible for putting in my head by giving others jobs, accolades, certifications, and the fruits of labor that they did not earn.

My point is not that I'm annoyed that black people have surpassed white people. They haven't, at least not in any way I'm aware of. My point is that racism in favor of black people causes racism against black people.

Next time read before you write.

 

[Keef]

I think it depends. For instance you expressed your distaste for curry. Assumedly this distaste would cross racial boundaries, but would effect a racial group more if they were to have a diet primarily of curries. Would you not like hanging out with me (white, anglosaxon american) if I smelled like curry as well? If the answer is yes then you aren't being racist, you just hate curry. However if you don't like hanging out with a certain racial group because you assume they all smell like curry, when many of them likely do not, then you are being racist.

The same can be said for almost any other situation. I can hate illegal immigration, and therefore have negative thoughts towards many hispanics in america. However that doesn't mean I would immediately believe all hispanics in america are illegal immigrants. It means that if I found out they were (or found out that anyone else was regardless of ethnicity/nationality) then I would immediately have a distaste for them.

You bring up a really good point in that a dislike of certain things, whether it be curry or illegal immigration, often gets mistaken for racism because those things are typically related to a specific group of people.

You kinda stumped me with the white people curry thing. Honestly, I don't know any white people that eat those foods regularly, or at all even. I can tell you that if my cousin smelled that way I wouldn't like being around him in the slightest. I really don't even know. I probably just dislike the smell - my buddy Ahmad never smells that way - but since it's usually only Muslims and the like that eat the stuff I immediately think of them when I think of the food. The same goes for hispanics and illegal immigration.

I guess racism runs so rampant because people don't think hard about what they don't like and why they don't like it. Or, maybe genuine racism is actually less common than reported because much of it is simply misinterpreted.

Deep thought is great, ain't it?

 

[WVUscion]

I think that many people use hate of a specific thing as a spring board into discrimination. Its very easy to move from a somewhat general statement "I hate illegal immigration" to "I hate hispanics". While it may be true that a great majority of illegal immigrants in america are hispanic, it would be wrong to judge the entire group on this. It would be similar to hating all black people because one black guy stole your wallet, or for a more accurate comparison if "All teh guys on the news who steal are black, so therefore all thieves MUST be black". That is obviously flawed logic, but is inevitably the course that many people take.

I'd like to say that I am inherently above such things, but that would be untrue. I also believe that everyone has some sort of predisposition about people upon first meeting them. The difference lies on how people act on that predisposition. If you meet a man who you would assume to eat curry, and then distance yourself from him and/or "hate" him because of that assumption then that would be expressing your disposition. However if you meet a man who you would assume to eat curry, and then find out that he actually hates the stuff to the extent that you do, then you have refrained from allowing your disposition to effect your critical thinking. I may be closing in on the "rambling" line, but it seems as if it not only happens but is necessary to at least initially categorize people we encounter. At the very least this could be used as a point of reference to remember the person. For example, Joe X is the white guy with glasses. Or James K is the short nerdy looking kid from my job. In our example James K may not have a nerdy personality in the slightest, but his "nerdy" appearance allows us to generate a memory reference for the individual. If we allow that reference to unnaturally shape our opinion of the person as a whole. That=bad. However if we use it solely as a reference then That=Fine.

Just my 2 cents on the matter.