America: are we too arrogant?

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and what about your arguments on curiosity, haven't found any to back up your theories?

Sorry, I thought that was over. I thought you had basically admitted defeat. Was there something I missed? You didn't really respond to my points - kept going on about tabloids for some reason. You could have picked lots of pointless entertainment instead of tabloids - like reality shows or something.

Anyway, I don't know how you fail to see that human beings are curious by nature - seems pretty obvious to me.


the only institution in our society that can legally declare a war on someone is the security council, and the security council has not declared war on iraq.

Who gives them the legal right to do that? What authority does it have and who authorizes it? This may be the heart of the problem because I do not believe this at all - whatsoever.


Viper Zero, i don't see what threat Iraq poses

Iraq didn't need to pose a threat for us to go to war with them. They invaded kuwait and were defeated. We gave them their country back on terms, they violated those terms, so we took it back.
 
danoff
Iraq didn't need to pose a threat for us to go to war with them. They invaded kuwait and were defeated. We gave them their country back on terms, they violated those terms, so we took it back.

You never had their country in the first place to give back to them!
 
You never had their country in the first place to give back to them!

You missed the point.

We had them over a barrel. We hadn't taken their country yet, but basically allowed them to barter to keep it. The echange was, we won't take your country, and you will comply with this laundry list.

They didn't comply with the laundry list, so we took their country.

Get it now?


(and we were in the right because they started it with the invasion of kuwait)
 
Theres no doubt that the First Gulf War was justified - its just the second one with a question mark hangging over it.
 
Theres no doubt that the First Gulf War was justified - its just the second one with a question mark hangging over it.

Thus the whole...

The echange was, we won't take your country, and you will comply with this laundry list. They didn't comply with the laundry list, so we took their country.
 
danoff
Sorry, I thought that was over. I thought you had basically admitted defeat. Was there something I missed? You didn't really respond to my points - kept going on about tabloids for some reason. You could have picked lots of pointless entertainment instead of tabloids - like reality shows or something.
is that the american arrogance again? i responded to all your points and brought arguments for my own points, whereas you responded only to a few sentences that you picked out of my posts and you did not bring a single argument...
Anyway, I don't know how you fail to see that human beings are curious by nature - seems pretty obvious to me.
ah, now i see where the problem is, you can't even read! please try again to read my posts, i said more than once that human beings were curious...but it does not make the mass media to deliver facts, because human beings are not curious ernough to start thinking for themselves...

Who gives them the legal right to do that? What authority does it have and who authorizes it? This may be the heart of the problem because I do not believe this at all - whatsoever.
the united nations which is the only institution in the world which represents everyone, not just one country...
 
The U.S. authorised the U.N., by becoming one of it's members. If I remember correctly it was even one of its founders, but I'd have to look that up to be sure ...
 
The U.S. authorised the U.N., by becoming one of it's members. If I remember correctly it was even one of its founders, but I'd have to look that up to be sure ...

I think that's right, but I don't remember the US agreeing to take no action that was not UN sanctioned.

is that the american arrogance again? i responded to all your points and brought arguments for my own points, whereas you responded only to a few sentences that you picked out of my posts and you did not bring a single argument...

...right

ah, now i see where the problem is, you can't even read! please try again to read my posts, i said more than once that human beings were curious...but it does not make the mass media to deliver facts, because human beings are not curious ernough to start thinking for themselves...

Good, glad we can agree that people are curious. Now, how can human beings be where we are today if we don't think for ourselves?

It's ironic that you have so little faith in humanity, yet seem to claim that you are properly educated on the facts. If you have achieved some measure of objectivity then how can you claim that human beings have no interest in that? Or are your thoughts consistent enough to believe you are biased and have no interest in fixing that?

Personally, half of the reason I come to the opinions board here is to see what the other side is saying - and I'm not alone.


the united nations which is the only institution in the world which represents everyone, not just one country...

How much do eggs cost?
 
Coming from a typical, propaganda-fed Englisher, I don't see America as arrogant.

Lacking subtlety at times, and perhaps a little brash, but not arrogant.
 
Read my post. In it I said the US justified itself to the UN and others by showing the resolutions it was basing its decision on to go to war with Iraq. That they included the language and the resolutions in the HOUSE bill . Shows that congress was concerned that the US live up to its treaty obligations.
The UN had 10 years to convince the Iraqi regime to live up to its obligations to the UN and the nations that shed blood to remove them from Kuwait. I will not repeat the many reasons and incidents that prompted the US to enforce the UN resolutions. Read it for yourself . As far as the relevence of the US house resolution versus the many UN resolutions. Well the best person to ask should be Saddam . He ignored the UN for ten years and they wrote more resolutions. he ignored the one US resolution and lost his job in two weeks.
youy can hem and haw and debate and hand wring for the rest of your lives about the resolutions . But Saddams gone. the Iraqi's can vote for whomever they choose and the worlds a better place for it. thanks to the coalition of the willing and if you take your point of view , NO THANKS to the UN.
if you talk without a means to back it up , the Saddams of the world will continue to laugh in your face, while they do what they please. You can only threaten once without backing up your threat or showing your resolve to enforce it you are talking loud but SAYING NOTHING. The UN failed the US and the rest of the coalition that went into Iraq to do something that should have been done YEARS ago.
 
ledhed
Read my post. In it I said the US justified itself to the UN and others by showing the resolutions it was basing its decision to go to war with Iraq

No, correct me if I'm wrong, but you posted how Congress used U.N. resolutions to justify the U.S. going to war in Iraq.
 
They included the same language they used to justify the war to the UN in the house bill.You posted while I was still compozing my other response...too quick Arwin :)
anyway go to the link I posted from the University of Michigan its got alot of pro's and cons and is part of the courses. the best thing is the info's all in one spot and there is alot of it. I know you will appreciate it. 👍
also Arwin think about it. The UN isn't usually informed when someone is going to start a war ..The Soviets in Afghanistan..all the wars against Israel, The War between Iran and Iraq, the invasion of Kuwait. They meet while the war is happening or after its over to debate what and if they will do anthing about it.
In the case of the US , they said iraq wasn't in compliance and decided that under the UN resolution authorizing the members to use whatever means neccessary to bring Iraq to compliance , they where justified in doing so. The US being that it was footing the cost and providing the overwelming majority of the forces needed to keep Iraq compling for ten years decided that time was up and that they where justified. Ten years Arwin. Saddam had enough time to get his act together.
 
danoff
It's ironic that you have so little faith in humanity, yet seem to claim that you are properly educated on the facts. If you have achieved some measure of objectivity then how can you claim that human beings have no interest in that? Or are your thoughts consistent enough to believe you are biased and have no interest in fixing that?
as a sadly matter of fact, the average human being in our western society is not as educated as i am. i always told you that there is a very curious minority which is searching for facts and tries to think for itself. you are part of that, i am part of that, but the majority is not, the majority believes (in god for example).


ledhead,

you see, the UN was not asked before the soviets attacked afghanistan, before israel was attacked, before kuwait was invaded...and the US attacked iraq without the UN. and all these attackers said that they were only defending themselves...
 
vladimir
as a sadly matter of fact, the average human being in our western society is not as educated as i am.
I think we should change the thread title to Vladimir: is he too arrogant?

:rolleyes:
 
Hey Vladamir..the US ..you know the same country that stayed in Iraq for ten years getting shot at ? They went before the the UN and the world and said , If Saddam does not comply with the UN we will make him do so .( to paraphrase). Then the President went on TV to the world after the presentation to the UN and the debate that went on for years. He said Saddam you have to leave. If you do not we will make you. Now what exactly are you talking about ? Where you sleeping ? when all this went on before the war where you in a coma ? Are you that dense that you would like to have people believe that the war on IRAQ was a suprise to anyone ? You just raised the bar on the credibility scale about a mm on that one. Between you and the Hizbolla dude and the rest of the radical propagandist , you are doing nothing to advance your cause.
The US is the biggest supporter that the UN has had or ever will have WE FOUNDED the damm UN we are charter members we PAY FOR THE FRIGGIN UN. more than any nation . We are the country, more than any other that has to ENFORCE what the UN decides. Take your head out from up or under what ever its in. Its our blood and our money more than any other country in the HISTORY of the UN that has been shed. We made our case in front of the UN and the world. You and the rest of the world had ten years to sort out Saddam you failed.The rest of the WORLD FAILED US. We along with the British and Australia and the rest of the countries that went to war, decided that the others are wrong in their interpretations of what needed to be done.
When you and the people of your country and others are willing to take on your fair share of the defense budget , let me know I'm tired and I'm shure alot of others in my country are tired of paying out 28 to 30 % of our GNP for the military budget while the rest of the world pays .23 to .90 of thiers. You want security and you dont care for the way we do it . Then you pay for it and send your soldiers out to die. Until then complain all you want ..but excuse me if I don't listen.
Put me at the head of the Arrogant American class if this upsets you and mark me as proud of it.
 
This is rubish. I go to bed, wake up and this i what i wake up to?

The US cannot justify it's action by the resolution since it would STILL need UN support! The US accepted the UN charter, it ratified it, and according to the US constitution the US must abide by International agreements. So the UN is the highest power as far as the US is concerned. It is up to the Security Council's discretion weather the breeches warrant action and what type of action they warranted. The Security Council would think an invasion of Iraq unecssary.
I already gave you a link which links to over 50 expert articles on the legality of this war, only two experts said it was legal. This war is illegal, no serious observer of international affairs should be fooled otherwise.

But since when has the US cared about International Law or countries upholding resolutions? Israel has breeched 75+ resolutions and nobody is invading them.

And also it begsthe question, why aren't the resolutions imposed on the US aswell? The US is also responsible for 20 years of Saddams opression (the worst 20 years), and responsible for him remaining for the next 10 years.

After the first gulf war when there was a Shi'ah rebellion, which Saddam brutaly put down. In no small part thanks to the US, who authorized the use of military gunships. Later General Schwartzkopf (spelling?) stated that he was "snookered" by Saddam into authorizing the gunships, aparently not realising that gunships could be used for putting down the rebellion :rolleyes: Also he denied the rebellion access to captured Iraqi arms. In short did everything they could to help Saddam beatthe rebellion. The reason for this was made clear, US officials plainly stated that they simply "preferred an iron-fisted military junta".

Remember... 75+ resolutions, so don't even BOTHER to mention how Iraq breeched resolutions because the US doesn't seem to care at all about the resolutions.

Also someone said something about "all the wars against Israel". I can only think of the 6-Day War. Please explain the others i seem to have forgotten them.
 
I'm tired and I'm shure alot of others in my country are tired of paying out 28 to 30 % of our GNP for the military budget while the rest of the world pays .23 to .90 of thiers. You want security and you dont care for the way we do it . Then you pay for it and send your soldiers out to die. Until then complain all you want ..but excuse me if I don't listen.

When a country that is feared more than South Korea, Saddam and Al-Quida, Trusted less than any other organisation on earth, spends vastly more amounts of money than any other country on its military, and announces its policy of "pre-emptive retaliation" acting "unilateraly if it must" and "working outside the UN if we have to" it realy realy makes me feel secure, the whole world should feel secure shouldnt it!

If you guys are tired then please, disarm, disband all your military, the world will be a much better place.
 
Pistachio do you print your own propaganda ? so far you and Hizbolla are the ones claiming the US provided Saddam with military aid and supported him for twenty years etc, etc. SADDAM was an ally of the soviets ! Remember the cold war ? you said the US was was responsible for the gassing of the kurds . That was SADDAM not the US . Saddam invaded IRAN ..and he invaded kuwait . He also masacred the Shiites in the south. The US mistake was in only prohibiting fixed wing aircraft . Also IMO we should have gotten rid of the moron in the first war .
Answer this; HOW LONG SHOULD THE US PUT ITS ARMED FORCES IN AND AROUND IRAQ TO ENFORCE THE UN RESOLUTIONS BEFORE TAKING ACTION TO GET IRAQ TO COMPLY ?
TEN YEARS WAS NOT LONG ENOUGH ?
WHAT OTHER COUNTRY WOULD DO IT?
Also since Iraq kept firing at our planes in the no fly zones that were put there to protect the Shiites and the Kurds. 1000 times they fired missles at our aircraft. IMO that alone is an attack on our country and a violation of the cease fire aggreement and the UN resolutions and deserves an attack and the removal of the government that ordered it. Unless you believe a country that puts its forces at the disposal of the UN has no right to defend itself .
 
South Korea? Uh... ok.

I think you meant North Korea.

Yes thankyou.


ledhed
Pistachio do you print your own propaganda ? so far you and Hizbolla are the ones claiming the US provided Saddam with military aid and supported him for twenty years etc, etc. SADDAM was an ally of the soviets ! Remember the cold war ?

Why are you in denial, i don't know what gives you the idea that the US never supported him. I have posted up countless websites attesting to the strong links of the US and Saddam. It is commonly known and accepted. Here i'll post them again:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/...80scontent.html
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm
http://www.sundayherald.com/42648
http://www.globalpolicy.org/securit...usseinindex.htm

Now can YOU provide sources that shows the extent of the Soviet deals? I do believe that all Soviet weaponry was baught outright where the US on the other hand would give it as loans and aid aswell.

you said the US was was responsible for the gassing of the kurds . That was SADDAM not the US . Saddam invaded IRAN ..and he invaded kuwait .

The US was partly responsible is what i said. The US supported Saddam through these atrocities, military aid was given, as were chemical and biological weaponry. A Nuclear weapons program was in the works with US support despite the fact that the US knew well that Saddam was a ruthless dictator.
Ontop of this, while the US supplied Iraq with weapons for the Iran-Iraq war, the US also supplied Iran with weapons (the contra scandal). Making itself a decent amount of profit out of the suffering of others, and used the money to fund its illegal actions in africa and its World Court condemned "use of illegal force" in Nicaragua.

The invasion of Kuwait is interesting as it was the time the US broke links with Iraq, but funnily enough the US had invaded Panama months earlier in what is almost exactly the same way as Iraq invaded Kuwait.


He also masacred the Shiites in the south. The US mistake was in only prohibiting fixed wing aircraft . Also IMO we should have gotten rid of the moron in the first war .
Yes but what you think they should have done isn’t the issue here, the issue is the actions of the US government. They obviously allowed Saddam to stay, as i mentioned before they simply "preferred an iron fisted military junta". The US mistake? I suppose it was un-intentional to forget about Saddams sizable force of helicopter gunships? A mistake that any competent general in charge of the worlds largest army could make.

Answer this; HOW LONG SHOULD THE US PUT ITS ARMED FORCES IN AND AROUND IRAQ TO ENFORCE THE UN RESOLUTIONS BEFORE TAKING ACTION TO GET IRAQ TO COMPLY ?
TEN YEARS WAS NOT LONG ENOUGH ?
WHAT OTHER COUNTRY WOULD DO IT?

Fact of matter is the US and Britain imposed a uni-lateral interpretation of the sanctions. Broadening it from one that denies materials for military build up (the sanctions regime envisioned by the UN) to one that severely punishes the Iraqi people and strengthens Saddams power.

The US preferred Saddam in power until recently. The sanctions regime (which is what the US has spent all this time trying to enforce, albeit their own version of it) had a substantial effect on Iraq's people, leading to the death of 500,000 children. The sanctions increased the dependence of the Iraqi people on Saddam for food and medicine strengthening Saddams hold on the country and weakening the people.

Simply said there is no case for the sanctions regime as far as the US is concerned. Their form of uni-lateral sanctions aren't just inapropriate but outright criminal.

The main (and almost only) argument given for the sanctions which is repeated by US and British officials zealously was reiterated by the head of the UN Sanctions Comitee, Peter Von Valsen (spelling?); "Iraq is in a league of its own, its the only country that has actualy used weapons of mass destruction against an enemy or even against its own people" which is needless to say not exactly true LOL

Something else that warrents some thought is another reason given to justify the sanctions regime.
"...two hawkish military analysts writing in the Journal of Foreign Affairs... they pointed out that 'the sanctions agaisnt Iraq have killed more people than all the weapons of mass destruction in all of human history put together' They didn't say that in critisism in fact they added that it was necessary to do this. But if one is concerned with weapons of mass destruction yes they have been used we have been using them for the past ten years, it is a form of biological warfare (the sanctions)" - Chomsky a lecture about justice in Iraq




Also since Iraq kept firing at our planes in the no fly zones that were put there to protect the Shiites and the Kurds. 1000 times they fired missles at our aircraft. IMO that alone is an attack on our country and a violation of the cease fire aggreement and the UN resolutions and deserves an attack and the removal of the government that ordered it. Unless you believe a country that puts its forces at the disposal of the UN has no right to defend itself .

The air raids were carried out by the US with no Security Council authorization, making them illegal. In fact the December 1998 bombing was carried out in contempt of the security council, timed to coincide with when the Security Council was meeting to deal with the question of Iraq. The no fly zones were not put in place to allow US planes to commit daily bimbing runs throughout the 90's, and indeed Article 51 of the UN resolution is clear in stating that if the US wishes to have bimbing runs in breech of International Law, then Iraq has a right to defend itself. If Iraq was ordering bombing runs over Los Angeles i would think you have the right to shoot those bombers down.
 
You forot to add that "the US is the great satan"
I always wondered what happened to the funny guy that was the Iraqi minister of propaganda.
now I know ..your him ! wow I'm so glad you came out of the war ok ! You used to crack me up.
by the way if you want to prove that Elvis lives or that the martians have landed you can find a web site for that to. santa Clause and the elves have a popular site also.
 
ledhed
You forot to add that "the US is the great satan"
I always wondered what happened to the funny guy that was the Iraqi minister of propaganda.
now I know ..your him ! wow I'm so glad you came out of the war ok ! You used to crack me up.

Nice argument.
 
Hey you gotta admit thats a good one :)
especially for a friday night !
here ya go http://www.regiments.org/milhist/mideast/iraq.htm#hist
While your there you can catch up on Iraqs military history !
check out the part on the Iran Iraq war .
I did read your links btw . all old news nothing new and already debated and discounted by credible sources. Its all the anti war arguments all over again. and if you want to get the pro war arguments that say something else you go to different web sites.
So you have some pro war views and some anti war views on Iraq..whats new ? You have an anti American View I do not.
But the good news is Saddam is gone and he cant go back.
 
The revolution of July 14, 1958, and the coming to power of Abd al Karim Qasim completely altered Iraq's military orientation. Disagreement with the British (and with the Western world's) stance vis-a-vis Israel, and growing pan-Arab sentiment led Qasim to abrogate the Baghdad Pact and to turn to the Soviet Union for arms. Since 1959 the Soviet Union has been Iraq's chief arms supplier and its most essential foreign military tie. In April 1972, the two states signed a fifteen-year Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation in which Iraq and the Soviet Union agreed to "continue to develop cooperation in the strengthening of the defense capabilities of each."

By no means, however, was Iraq a "satellite" of the Soviet Union. Baghdad consistently insisted on its independence in policy making, and on a number of key issues, including the ArabIsraeli conflict, Syria's role in Lebanon, and the Nonaligned Movement, the two states held opposing views. Furthermore, Iraq's Baathist ideology remained fundamentally antithetical to communism. As a further sign of its staunch independence, Iraq insisted on its freedom to purchase weapons from Western sources, and in 1980 it demonstrated its intention to diversify its source of armaments. Although France and Britain both had sold some arms to Iraq during the 1966 to 1968 regime of Abd ar Rahman Arif, between 1974 and 1980 Iraq increased its purchases from France by acquiring helicopters, antitank missiles, and high performance Mirage jet fighters.

Despite these expressions of Iraqi independence, both mutual interests and practical necessity dictated the Iraqi air forces's reliance on Soviet support. Total Soviet military aid to Iraq between 1958 and 1974 was estimated at the equivalent of US$1.6 billion; in 1975 alone such Soviet aid was estimated at US$1 billion. Soviet deliveries of military hardware of increasingly higher quality between 1976 and 1980 were estimated at US$5 billion. In 1977, for example, Iraq ordered the Ilyushin Il-76 long-range jet transport, the first such Soviet aircraft provided to a foreign state. Until 1980 nearly 1,200 Soviet and East European advisers, as well as 150 Cuban advisers, were in Iraq. Iraqi military personnel were also trained in the use of SAMs, and observers estimated that between 1958 and 1980, nearly 5,000 Iraqis received military training in the Soviet Union.

Sorry I couldnt just give you a link it wont work.
Try this.. http://countrystudies.us/iraq/96.htm
I wish I got paid for this crap.
 
LOL you shot yourself in the foot.

"1979.07.16 Vice-president Saddam Hussein succeeded al-Bakr as president, and began consolidating power through purges and terror."

Funny enough all your info on Soviet aid and such to Iraq and lack of US aid to Iraq seems to stop just as Saddam Takes power. In fact your source has absolutely no info on Saddams rule at all. What relevance is your info if it doesn't relate to Saddam?
 
Your sources aren't very good either, it seems to neglect to mention any link at all between Iraq and the US.
Merely listing countries and then being vague and saying "among others".

Could we have independent sources, not "US Library of Congress"?

As for my links:
www.cooperativeresearch.org/globalissue/usforeignpolicy/iraq1980scontent.html
www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm
www.sundayherald.com/42648
www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/history/husseinindex.htm

They all seem to be from NGO's and independant reputable sources.
And since you said just posting URLs doesn't work. Here is a SUMMARY of one of the sources.

"Summary:
The U.S. provided financial aid, military intelligence, and actual military planning to Iraq at a time when the Reagan administration was well aware that Iraq was using chemical weapons against Iran. One anonymous inside source told the New York Times that the Pentagon “wasn't so horrified by Iraq's use of gas. It was just another way of killing people — whether with a bullet or phosgene, it didn't make any difference.”

The facts surrounding U.S. covert support for Iraq and its awareness that Iraq had been using chemical warfare against the Iranians, and perhaps the Kurds, offers serious implications to the current Bush administration's argument for 'regime change' in Iraq. One of the main premises of the administration's argument is that Saddam Hussein must be removed from power because he is 'evil' - referring of course to the allegation that Saddam Hussein 'gassed his own people.' "




Sorry about my broken links before, i've fixed them.
 
Wow, this thread became interesting really fast.....

Ledhead seems to bo digging himself further into a hole.....


;)
 
ledhed
You forot to add that "the US is the great satan"
I always wondered what happened to the funny guy that was the Iraqi minister of propaganda.
You mean Baghdad Bob? He's sooo funny! He said the Americans were slaughtered in the desert, yet a column of M1A1s from the 3rd Infantry Division rolls on by behind him. :dunce:

He's doing something for Abu Dhabi TV right now. I think he's still in denial.

You can buy his DVD too! http://www.baghdadbobdvd.com/
 
I deliberately got info up until 1980's. This was about the Iran Iraq war right ? It started in 1980, so its relevant what arms where available up to and through the war period . The reason it seems that US military aid is not mentioned is because NO US MILITARY AID WAS GIVEN. Iraq did not use US arms to fight a war. Even your links do not say the US sent arms. They say they sent TRUCKS that the US claims they didn't know would be used in war, but the trucks were sent by a US company because Regan removed the enemy status from Iraq . That enabled US COMPANYS to deal with Iraq. The US GOVERNMENT never sent any aid other than intelligence . Iraq was free to TRADE with the US thanks to the government removing barriers put in place when that country went into the Soviet sphere of influence..the removal of trade barriers is the AID that your radical friends pin thier case on. Just like the link to Anthrax and Chemical weapon supplies it holds no water when subject to scrutiny. I read your links every one of them. Again nothing new , all the same claims that the radicals and anti war protesters use along with some crap that the Hisbolla and Iranian government put out as propaganda. And as far as your thinking that material in the library of congress is somehow bogus or tainted, that only shows even more your lack of impartiality and credibility. Before making that remark you would have been wise to at least look up some info on it .
Silvia drifter... You should have read the links instead of the posts, maybe then you would have discovered the mistakes that pistachio made instead of becoming a parrot.
You guys can jump in the hole now.
How can anyone argue that the Iraqi aqrmy used US military equipment insead of Soviet block and French have any credibility what so ever. Thats one fact that cant be twisted. The fact that you misinterpret what you read in your own links is also troubling.
 
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