America: The Bankrupt empire?

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Ya'll awakened a monster.

Tora! Tora! Tora!

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America's problems are no different than the problems facing the rest of Europe. We have bent crooks running our countries as well as debt problems that aren't 'our', i.e. the common folk's, fault. But obviously if you live in Europe, you'll consider your problems of greater severity and vice versa.

I envisage that the western world will take some time to recover from its slump. The US has had a considerable amount of time at the top of the pile, but it must never forget the way back down to the bottom. Some other countries like China Arabia, and Russia to an extent, are catching up.
 
You may end up having America split into fragments (like the east/west Germany scenario, only there'll be more of them), the well-to-do states would rightly so want to cut the butt-draggers loose and unify with other well-to-do states.
People are just going to get wiser to the situation and try to preserve the condition of their own state by lobbying for a split.
You wouldn't want people who contributed to the poor condition of their state simply moving to yours would you.

It's all not likely, but a fun possibility.

It's already happened. You apparently haven't seen this have you?

statesfinal.gif
 
Wannabees. (I despise this, btw.)


PNAC



Edit: fixed link

Quite frankly I absolutely despise that document as well.

Here's the thing; This country has been torn down and rebuilt numerous times. The Civil War. The 29 Crash. Vietnam. The Post Reagan Recession, etc. We stumble. But eventually we find our way again. The problem right now is we have two factions of fleas fighting over the same dog. You have people like Eric Cantor and Mitch McConnel who have publically stated that their collective goal is to make President Obama a one term president. They are so blinded that they willing to sell the rest of us down the river to accomplish that. Meanwhile, you these guys like the Tea Party who actually believe that the way to fix everything is to bankrupt the government, and emasculate it. We keep hearing the phrases "Big government is evil". Hey newsflash assholes! The government serves a role in our everyday lives. If your house is burning down, they hire people to come and put it out. Would you rather leave that to someone like Enron? Or AIG? Or even better, Wal Mart? Police and firefighting for profit? Is that the way we want to go?

Not that the Democrats are any better, but at least now they are looking like the SANE ones. The Republicans right now are like Ike Turner. "Don't worry baby it will be different this time" Are you kidding me?? You don't think I've paid attention to what's happened for the last ten years? If voters fall for it, we might as well call ourselves the United States of Amnesia!

I would go on, but it makes me too angry!!
 
Rumors of the United States' demise have been exaggerated.

Even in what appears to be a "weakened" state of being, the United States as a whole (fiscally, militarily, and diplomatically) is stonger by a country mile than its closest competitors. While China is growing rapidly and the US's growth has showing a slowing (as in, still growing just not as quickly as it once was) trend, China still has a looong way to go.

Yes, people are making mistakes. What's better? They are being called out for it. The American people are not blind like some would have you believe. Hence the existence of this thread. People are alarmed by the trends and are taking action appropriately.

Once, Japan was a worrisome competitor of the United State in the trade markets. Now they are an afterthought after being overtaken by China. Who will be the next to come from behind China and be the largest United States competitor?
 
Rumors of the United States' demise have been exaggerated.

Even in what appears to be a "weakened" state of being, the United States as a whole (fiscally, militarily, and diplomatically) is stonger by a country mile than its closest competitors. While China is growing rapidly and the US's growth has showing a slowing (as in, still growing just not as quickly as it once was) trend, China still has a looong way to go.

Yes, people are making mistakes. What's better? They are being called out for it. The American people are not blind like some would have you believe. Hence the existence of this thread. People are alarmed by the trends and are taking action appropriately.

Once, Japan was a worrisome competitor of the United State in the trade markets. Now they are an afterthought after being overtaken by China. Who will be the next to come from behind China and be the largest United States competitor?

That's fine and dandy, but when the country does things that the people don't really want or didn't elect officials for then it becomes bigger than just stats on how the government is doing. Moral wise if the Government isn't received well by the people, that is a type of failure on their part and one that could be of determent. If a group feels that they're losing their constitutional rights even if the military is powerful that means little to them. All that shows that the force they put in power is growing stronger as the people grow weaker.


Also the existence of this thread is a drop in the bucket compared to the unawareness of people, when you have 25% of people voting to have a guy like Santorum win the GOP, that should open your eyes and say maybe people aren't so alert to reality or what goes on beyond the campaign slogans. Same could be said for Obama and all others before them. Three people shouting out fire in a crowd of a thousand isn't going to do much.
 
IMO: The US isn't "bankrupt". It remains a very wealthy, successful & powerful country. It is an "empire" although not an empire in precisely the same way as earlier empires.

What the US also isn't is: "EXCEPTIONAL"!

There was a time when the US was exceptional - a country with the social, economic & political advantages of a rationally conceived constitution & a unimaginably vast hinterland of untapped resources to be exploited. These factors combined with an influx of enterprising, adventurous immigrants led to a rapid expansion of population, wealth & power.

However, during the same period, the great European powers also grew exponentially in population, wealth & power & gradually adopted more responsive, democratic forms of government. Not having huge land masses to explore & exploit, the European powers looked to colonial expansion to increase their access to resources. Conflict between competing interests led to the conflagration of the First World War & then the Second World War which both represented opportunities for the US to gain ground on the European countries.

After the Second World War, the US emerged as the dominant world power, challenged only by the (somewhat hollow) military & technological power of the Soviet Union. The 50 years following the end of the war were the United States period of hegemony. But, the US was no longer "exceptional" compared to Europe in terms of political & social organization, just more powerful due to historical & geographical circumstances.

Those historical & geographical circumstances have changed over the last couple of decades, ironically, partly due to technical innovations pioneered in the US. The problems facing the US & ALL the western countries are significant & structural. The global economy that has emerged no longer favours the US (or Europe) in the same way that it used to. The very rich in the US (& elsewhere) are able to thrive & prosper in this new global economy, the working & middle-classes, less so, as they are now competing in a global market-place. There are also fundamental demographic shifts taking place in all the Western countries (& Japan) – slightly less-so in the US, that are having profound & unavoidable consequences on the economies of those countries.

Looking at the US today it seems to me that its own consciousness of "exceptionalism" is now manifested through a sense of entitlement & hubris. US politicians continue to waffle on about American "exceptionalism" without facing up to the reality that there is no longer anything inherently exceptional about the US. What is most noticeable to me, is that unlike Canada & most European countries, the US seems to be lacking any kind of popular consensus. The political system is paralyzed by two diametrically opposed, competing philosophies & seems incapable of moving forward in a constructive way. The Tea Party belief that returning to the days of smaller government & low taxes will somehow return the US to greatness is nonsense. Just lowering tax rates on the wealthiest isn’t going to achieve anything except lower the general standard of living & increase the growing gap between the rich & non-rich. And what is needed is not “small government”, it’s GOOD government.

The US needs a national sales tax, higher marginal income tax rates on the wealthiest Americans, lower corporate & payroll taxes, a re-assessment of unsustainable “entitlement” programs, a dramatic (but gradual) decrease in military spending, a more efficient single-payer health-care system, a targeted increase in spending on education, technology & infrastructure – things that will make the US able to compete globally in a changing world.

I still believe that if the US can come together with some renewed sense of common purpose it will flourish in the future. It will never attain the same kind of hegemony it enjoyed in the last 50 years, however. This is not a bad thing – it means that hundreds & hundreds of millions of people in other parts of the world will be achieving new levels of prosperity & human dignity.

Once, Japan was a worrisome competitor of the United State in the trade markets. Now they are an afterthought after being overtaken by China. Who will be the next to come from behind China and be the largest United States competitor?

Yes! You are right! Bear in mind that China is not without its own problems. These will become more apparent with time & check its own expansion in ways that are hard to anticipate now.
 
The United States can't implement a national sales tax because it would be unconstitutional, or at least that's what would those opposed to one would be.

As far as a single payer system and higher taxes on the wealthy, I always see this argument against these things being those saying "This is socialism! Do we really want to be Sweden?". The only knowledge that most Americans have of Sweden is a character from the Muppet Show. You know what, I've been to Sweden. I looked around and said "the sky is blue, the streets are clean, people are well dressed, there's no overwhelming police presence, the people look healthy, they have excellent health care, they drive nice cars, there's lots of tall, full breasted, blonde women EVERYWHERE... what's so bad about this?? If this is what socialism looks like then sign me up!".

You're right though, "smaller" government isn't the answer. We tried that under the Articles of Confederation, it didn't work. BETTER government is the answer.
 
The United States can't implement a national sales tax because it would be unconstitutional, or at least that's what would those opposed to one would be.

As far as a single payer system and higher taxes on the wealthy, I always see this argument against these things being those saying "This is socialism! Do we really want to be Sweden?". The only knowledge that most Americans have of Sweden is a character from the Muppet Show. You know what, I've been to Sweden. I looked around and said "the sky is blue, the streets are clean, people are well dressed, there's no overwhelming police presence, the people look healthy, they have excellent health care, they drive nice cars, there's lots of tall, full breasted, blonde women EVERYWHERE... what's so bad about this?? If this is what socialism looks like then sign me up!".

You're right though, "smaller" government isn't the answer. We tried that under the Articles of Confederation, it didn't work. BETTER government is the answer.

Are you trying to say socialism creates lots of tall, full breasted blond women? That's just a Commie ploy to try & weaken the resolve of the red-blooded American male!

You're right. The only exceptional thing about the US is its insistence on being "exceptional". This makes it unable to learn anything from the experiences of any other country in the world. Belief in one's own inherent superiority is a fatal flaw & one that has sunk other empires in the past. And constantly looking back to the 18th century isn't the best way forward to a successful future.
 
The very rich in the US (& elsewhere) are able to thrive & prosper in this new global economy, the working & middle-classes, less so, as they are now competing in a global market-place.

Could you expand on this? Because the rich are also competing globally. So I'm getting the impression that you are saying just because they are rich it's wrong for them to prosper.


And what is needed is not “small government”, it’s GOOD government.

I doubt that the two are exclusive. Government doesn't have much incentive to improve when they can just raise taxes and still get re-elected. Plus as they gain more power and size there is a larger chance for corruption. So how would we keep the government under control and make sure it's "good"?
 
Biggles, the whole thing about "exceptionalism" is this; You have all these people on Fox News who keep telling everyone how great we are, because that's what everyone wants to hear. They tune into to Fox and watch Bill O'Reilly and they sit there and say "Yeah, yeah! America is the greatest country in the world! And Barack Obama is a dirty socialist!". It's part of their whole ideology, and the people like my brother's father in-law eat it hook, line, sinker. We're talking about a man who actually got angry when I suggested that someone born in another nation would actually be patriotic toward their homeland. INCONCEIVABLE!!

Everyone my age has grown up in a world where the United States of America was a global super power. It's only natural that they cling to that. You're Canadian, Habs fans still look back with great pride on their history. And there must be a lot of people around the world who hate the United States of America, that when the Soviet Union fell they felt that there was nobody to keep us in check anymore. So I think that's where this whole readiness to sweep us aside comes from.


The great Lewis Black says it a lot better than I ever will.



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8511059913704327498
 
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wR5mdC


These graphs come from Judge Napolitano's Facebook page, and represent military spending for each of the countries cited.
 
How much does the US make by exporting our arms? How many allies rely on us for military supply?

Neither of those were rhetorical, I'm legitimately interested.
 
@ Biggles : Though I am not with you on every point (educational difference), your big post from last page is pretty good.

Zenith: You with 2 others are the biggest arms suppliers (Germany and China). So ranging from 1/3 to 1/2 depending on what arms we are talking about.

Now on my views:

Little anecdote:
When I was little I always wanted to live in the US, until I grew up.

On the economical aspect of this thread:
The main issue with the Us, as many stated before is the harsh segregation of the inner political stand of the US.
It's like watching two dogs biting and devoring themselves.
And now, with what I get from news as they don't really interest me, the election of the republicans looks like a huge farce to me.
You really want one of those two for president?
Liars and ****-throwers?
The 2 party policital system is now driven to the extreme, the ones beeing to social (for Us terms) and the other beeing way too right.
I doubt the 2 republicans candiates could show and name 3 european countries or 3 african countries.
On the socialist aspect (welfare, medicare,...) : doesn't the US have a saying : When society was good to you, give back some?
So where would be the problem of at least a mediacal backdrop, you know like the rest of the civilized world? (Simpsons reference to that is awesome)

On a pure economical term, the US has problems, but not unpassable ones. Start taxing the very wealthy, relief taxes from the poorest ones, tax companies enough to make money but not scare them away, cut the spendings, cut down military.
The printing money method of Mister bernake is just good for short time, over long term, you devalueing too much money (also devalueing the debts, ok; but also devalueing every inland income.)

On China: China is creating a huge bubble, elevating China amongst the tops, but it will burst. And the higher they climb the higher they fall.
China's real estate market may burst first, then the rest will crumble, and the snowball effect will commence.
Plus China is in the need of a social uproar sooner or later, which will prononce the above. Worst but most likable is that all will come together simultaneously.
And China will never have the same influence over the rest of the world (apart from Asia) as the US of A once did. Social and cultural differences are too big (like simple things like shaking heads). The US is/ was a part of Europe from a historical, cultural background, the same can't be said about China.
 
Those graphs are surprising. I had no idea the US's military spending was greater than the rest of the entire world combined.

Also, I had no idea that Saudi Arabia was investing so much in this area. Quite amazed to notice the similarity between the first and the last (pie shaped) graph. Saudi Arabia is, in the middle east, like the US is in the world. Alone it spends more than anyone else. I would imagine Israel or Iran to take the top step in that area of the world.
 
I think the state of "an empire" is just a country in its financial or military prosperity or superiority over other nations lying in the rest of the world, but no wonder it's entirely different in sense from what it had long been defined in the past era.

No matter the country incurs the problem of having difficulty paying off the debt, it can be done over time but are the U.S. politicians doing the right to maintain its flourish as a nation? It's sometimes heard that China is going to rise as a counterpart of the United States despite the fact that there is still a long way for China and other nations to reach the proportion of armament and other fields of America(as shown above), but if the U.S. remains averse to taking measures to solve problems in the country, then I'm afraid the time might really come when the U.S. collapses as an empire, in the very distant future.
 
but are the U.S. politicians doing the right to maintain its flourish as a nation?
No.

...I'm afraid the time might really come when the U.S. collapses as an empire, in the very distant future.
Within my lifetime, no doubt. I give it 30 years at the current rate.
 
Actually, the financial news here stated that the USA is slowly crawling back up it's feet.

With trillions of dollars and debt, and trillions more to come there is no way america is crawling back.

Anyhow the collapse of both the British Empire and the Soviet Union are perfect scenerio to describe what america eventual fate will be. In fact america the USSR-phase of collapse. The very fact that China is provoking america in a new arms race is hastening the Soviet-phase.
 
But a country like the UK has shown that recovery is most certainly possible. London is the city where most financial transactions take place. It shares this accolade with New York. I think this is a notable achievement, given that the UK is not one of the countries with the highest GDPs and so on.

Recovery can/will be slow, but certainly achievable.
 
American Exceptionalism, as brought to you by Newt & Callista, with special guest appearances by the Donald & Michele Bachman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQsCW1hbOGw

I think you're wildly over-pessimistic Keefe. The most exceptional thing about the US is surely the size of its military spending, but that military spending is one key to solving the debt problems of the US. With so much room to cut back in military spending, getting the US solvent isn't an intractable problem. Some of the European countries, & Japan, face more significant problems because their demographic situation is more severe & they don't have such a huge military sector that they can cut back on.

Cut military spending, eliminate the Bush tax cuts for the rich, reduce corporate & payroll taxes, promote spending on higher education & R & D, rationalize entitlement programs, & the budget deficit can be cut. If the economy finally starts to grow again it will be possible to start paying down the accumulated debt. This is what happened in the Clinton years - a combination of reduced spending, the "peace dividend" following the end of the Cold War & economic growth inspired by the tech revolution, led to a few years of budget surpluses. But in order to accomplish this, there has to be some kind of co-operation between the opposing forces in US politics & the building of some kind of consensus as to how to proceed.

China may be growing rapidly but I'm convinced that there are serious underlying problems - economic, social & political - that are concealed by the lack of transparency in China & that will at some point come to a head & stop, or at least slow down China's rise. Unfortunately, given the interdependence of the world's economies, I suspect that China's problems will also create problems for other countries.
 
If current trends continue, I see no reason why any other nation in the world would have any faith left in the United States 30 years from now. The US is seen as having a leading role in the world's economy. If that is the case, then I'm afraid my government is leading the world astray.

EDIT: Then again, John Maynard Keynes was British, and he's the pioneer of our modern ruinous economic policies. Blame them!
 
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If current trends continue, I see no reason why any other nation in the world would have any faith left in the United States 30 years from now.

I think America is getting a reality check, but I highly doubt we're looking at a case of Weimar Germany.
 
I think America is getting a reality check, but I highly doubt we're looking at a case of Weimar Germany.
If current trends continue, this will happen eventually. It's a matter of when. It already happened in Zimbabwe not too long ago. Japan has been fighting hyperinflation for decades (and by fighting it I mean doing the wrong thing and making it worse) and look at the prices they pay for the simplest of things. This could happen to any country using a fiat currency not tied to any commodity with actual scarcity.
 
Fair comment on the numerical value of Japanese money, but they're not in a critical crash yet. They're stemming the wound, but as you say, not in a good/efficient manner.

What is obstructing people doing the right thing? Not necessarily what they believe in, not necessarily what belongs to their political ideologies, but the right thing, to drag ourselves out of the mess that others have gotten us into. Party politics and pride, face, whatever you want to call it are setting us back 20-30 years.

In the long run, history will look back on a politician who did the right thing better than those who only stuck to their miguided, restrictive prinicples. Although arguably the problem apart from petty party politics is that we, our leaders, can't come to a majoritive decision on what exactly is the right thing. Or a majoritive decision on how we should punish those who were irresonsible and negligable. I mean come on, those crooks are really begging for mercy right about now (!)
 
If current trends continue, I see no reason why any other nation in the world would have any faith left in the United States 30 years from now. The US is seen as having a leading role in the world's economy. If that is the case, then I'm afraid my government is leading the world astray.

EDIT: Then again, John Maynard Keynes was British, and he's the pioneer of our modern ruinous economic policies. Blame them!

The US GDP has more than doubled (in real dollars) in the last 30 years, including the recession. So what are you talking about?
 
What is obstructing people doing the right thing? Not necessarily what they believe in, not necessarily what belongs to their political ideologies, but the right thing, to drag ourselves out of the mess that others have gotten us into. Party politics and pride, face, whatever you want to call it are setting us back 20-30 years.
Inflation benefits the rich and powerful because they gather tremendous amounts of money. It hurts the laymen; because the lowered value of money, prices of commodities and supplies go up, and employer costs go up, so they can't afford to pay their employees more. Employee wages become stagnant - but keep in mind the value of money is constantly dropping, which means that "stagnant" wages are actually worth less over time. The poor people who do the work keep getting poorer, but the bigwigs and people in DC keep raking in record profits because they have to charge ever more for things that cost a dollar less the day before. This phenomenon leads to the destruction of a middle-class leaving the working people, the vast majority of the population, poor while the few powerful people are richer than ever. Everybody has been talking about the growing divide between the rich and poor for years now - it's not just theory, it's happening and people are already pissed. The problem doesn't have anything to do with political parties or any other government nonsense. The problem is a school of economic thought, Keynesian economics, pioneered by that guy John Keynes, which agrees all too comfortably with the natural human desire to acquire as much wealth as easily as possible. That's why this philosophy has become mainstream over the last few decades. It's what enables everything wrong to happen economically.

The US GDP has more than doubled (in real dollars) in the last 30 years, including the recession. So what are you talking about?
Our currency and most currencies around the world have experienced rapid inflation within that time period. The recent recession saw actual production in the US drop to the lowest point in decades. Most of the increase in GDP can be attributed directly to inflation which simply leads to bigger numbers with no added value. It's hardly proper to adjust these numbers for inflation because the "official" inflation statistics are published by the same organization who is creating the inflation in the first place - the central bank/government. The published inflation statistics in the US are always lower than the numbers you get by analyzing market price variations. Keep in mind that the methods the government uses to calculate these statistics change over time. If you were to use methods from the past - in these charts from SGS they use 1990 and 1980 methods to complement official government data - you see different (usually higher) results.

This chart also agrees with the official figures, putting current CPI at under 4%. I repeat, SGS's chart using 1990 Consumer Price Index calculation methods put current CPI at over 6%, while the 1980 calculation methods place CPI at over 10% annual inflation. That may explain why the government insists that inflation isn't that bad, while the public at large is bitching louder than ever that everything keeps getting more expensive.

According to the government's own history of the Consumer Price Index, the "fourth comprehensive revision" to the calculation occurred in 1978. In 1981 they made an "improvement" - with reference to CPI charts, CPI dropped drastically from then. In 1983 they made another "improvement" - CPI went up. In 1985 they made an "improvement" - CPI dropped. In 1987 they made the "fifth complete revision" - CPI went up. There is no dated revision which occurred near the 1991 variation in CPI, nor 1997, though a few "improvements" were made during this time. In 1998 the "sixth complete revision" occurred - CPI was on the rise while at least two "improvements" occurred in 1999. An "improvement" was made in January 2002, corresponding to a small but sharp drop in CPI. They list numerous "improvements" to 1998 CPI methodology since 2002, the most "improvements" made to any revision in CPI history. This may explain why CPI variations since then have been the most volatile of any revision in CPI history.

So explain to me how the hell anybody is supposed to analyze CPI data over any period of time when the calculation method changes the published results, but all the data is plotted on the same graph? That's laughable. You know, and any other reasonable person knows, that you cannot change calculation methods for data at various times and then carelessly plot all those data on the same graph with the same scales. But that's what the government does. That's why you have to find somebody who uses one and only one method to calculate data for the entire time period, as SGS has done.
 
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It's important not to hate successful people for being successful, if people have the drive and motivation to succeed and earn a grandiose living then why should they be dragged down towards those who lack those traits, choose to do nothing with their life or just don't have the genes to succeed.
Direct any disgust upon the politics behind the economics that are causing the growing divide.
 
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