- 86,658
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
America - The Official Thread
- Thread starter ///M-Spec
- 38,983 comments
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- 29,699
- a baby, candy, it's like taking.
- TexRex72
Anti-SLAPP statutes protect speech by imposing punitive damages when private actors bring frivolous suits against individuals and entities for protected expression in an effort to suppress protected expression using state action via adjudication. A strong federal anti-SLAPP law is desperately needed.
Also this:
Also this:
- 29,699
- a baby, candy, it's like taking.
- TexRex72
It definitely won't end up anywhere. It may be upwardly mobile if it's seen by federal judges willing to ignore precedent in favor of grievance, but that's not sustainable.
There's speculation that it's a means to target Sullivan and kill the actual malice requirement, and while there may be interest in the Court for such a case, this certainly isn't the one. It's an exercise in frivolity and likely only a fundraising scheme to fleece the absolute stupidest mother****ers.
ROAD_DOGG33J
Premium
- 14,206
- IL, USA
- holyc0w1
- holyc0w
There is one person he paid:
Trump’s new $3m retainer lawyer for Mar-a-Lago case already being sidelined, report says
The lawyer formerly worked for Republican Governor Ron DeSantis
Keef
Premium
- 25,003
- Dayton, OH
- GTP_KeefRacer
- GTP Keef
The state of affairs in America today is embarrassing. We're surrounded by college-educated dumb idiot people who don't know how to do anything useful. Case in point: Driving. Everybody sucks. Evidence to follow.
How the hell hard is it to interpret a "yield", drive in a circle, and count to three? Apparently it's exceedingly difficult, as recently in a wealthy suburb near me, a notorious four-way stop sign intersection that has existed for decades was finally replaced with a roundabout, despite immense traffic congestion being a daily occurence for at least my entire 34 years on earth. Thank god some engineer (college educated) finally pulled their head out of their ass and came up with a solution. Lo and behold, nobody knows how to use it, primarily the old wealthy people in the area who somehow achieved wealth despite being useless and who command respect just for being old which is a ridiculous request and certainly not an achievement worthy of it. Getting old happens and you should expect nothing in return. Correction, you should expect one thing, which is an annual drivers license test which includes roundabout usage. Earn your respect, greedy old people.
How the hell hard is it to interpret a "yield", drive in a circle, and count to three? Apparently it's exceedingly difficult, as recently in a wealthy suburb near me, a notorious four-way stop sign intersection that has existed for decades was finally replaced with a roundabout, despite immense traffic congestion being a daily occurence for at least my entire 34 years on earth. Thank god some engineer (college educated) finally pulled their head out of their ass and came up with a solution. Lo and behold, nobody knows how to use it, primarily the old wealthy people in the area who somehow achieved wealth despite being useless and who command respect just for being old which is a ridiculous request and certainly not an achievement worthy of it. Getting old happens and you should expect nothing in return. Correction, you should expect one thing, which is an annual drivers license test which includes roundabout usage. Earn your respect, greedy old people.
Danoff
Premium
- 33,937
- Mile High City
I love roundabouts. But I have heard that tight ones make it impossible for large trucks to get through (for example moving trucks getting people's stuff to them), they can't manage the turn. So it's important to make at least one way into each neighborhood have a large enough roundabout to enable big trucks to pass.
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- 11,785
- Marin County
I find most of the road infrastructure issues in the USA are down to the people paying for it vetoing the good solutions and instead going with the cheap and/or bare-minum solutions whenever that option is available - because Americans are tremendously short-sighted - because Americans are overwhelmingly self-concerned. Marin county is a prime example of this. With a median household income of over $120k a year (!!!) it is one of the wealthiest counties in the whole damn country. And yet there is relentless cost-cutting whenever an infrastructural project comes up. It could be as simple as a bike lane or as complex as a new transit hub. Absolutely nobody wants to pay a dime for it. The road network here is the victim of mind-numbingly bad decisions almost everywhere. I'll give a good example - the two most heavily traffic'd freeways in the country are 580 and 101. They intersect each other, but there is no direct connection from NB101 to EB580...even though that is the only way to get from southern Marin County to Oakland - which is a trip more than 40,000 people take every day.
Instead we get this delightful monstrosity where you (red arrows) have to exit off of NB101, go around a 20mph curve, merge over traffic exiting from EB580 (blue arrows) then wait at a stoplight to cross one of San Rafael's (a city of 50,000 people) busiest streets to get on the onramp to EB580. The result is enormous backups onto NB101 every day and cars attempting to merge over on that road with 60+mph speed differentials. Fatality accidents are common near here. There is a plan being developed to improve this intersection, but the "good" solutions have all been eliminated as being too costly and so the only way forward is to bandage the problem for current traffic loads...nevermind any future increases.
- 7,599
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
I know they're statistically supposed to be safer, but I definitely dislike roundabouts. There are a few in my area and I purposely avoid them. For me, they definitely take more concentration to navigate. I know some traffic theories count that as a good thing, but I don't see the benefit. I've always wondered that if you broke down the statistics by driver experience or maturity, would the safety performance of roundabouts vs grid intersections flip at some point? Say that the top 25% of drivers would navigate a grid intersection with lower accident rates than a roundabout, while the reverse is true for the lower 75% of drivers.
Then you have the crossover intersections. Those are better at least, but I dislike that I need to strain my neck to check for incoming cars in the adjacent lane. Yes, it would be illegal and stupid for a driver to go in that direction, but that doesn't stop people from doing it on traditional roads where the same applies.
Then you have the crossover intersections. Those are better at least, but I dislike that I need to strain my neck to check for incoming cars in the adjacent lane. Yes, it would be illegal and stupid for a driver to go in that direction, but that doesn't stop people from doing it on traditional roads where the same applies.
- 3,910
- Null Island
Keef
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- Dayton, OH
- GTP_KeefRacer
- GTP Keef
This is one reason I think we'll never see those very small British neighorhood roundabouts in our own neighborhoods. There are plenty of busy neighborhood intersections where that would be the only option in order to preserve properties (the local roundabout I linked to actually tore down a house on that corner to make room) but I don't think any full size pickup would be able to make the turns. My Sequoia has a relatively short wheelbase and can barely turn around within an entire neighorhood four-way stop.
You hit the nail on the head, both in why that theory is a proven good thing and also why Americans hate it. It's not a theory, it's statistically proven that the human-nature aspect of forcing people to pay attention reduces crashes. Crashes go down because people actually have to pipe up and understand what's going on around them. The opposite is true of traffic signals - nobody needs to pay attention to anything except the light. Next time you're sitting at a light, look at the people around you and note how many of them look left and right as the light turns green, before they start accelerating. I bet you'll find that not even half of people do that. They mindlessly trust that other people are following the light as they did, and it's one reason so many t-bone crashes happen at busy four-way signals. That video I posted highlighted this problem. There are several other videos I could post that highlight various other problems with signals which lead to variations in decision making causing mistakes and crashes.
Edit: I think I will. These next two videos play off of each other so watch them in order.
Here's another one somewhat related.
This guy highlights all sorts of problems with traffic signals, from engineering limitations to the human factors the Vox video mentions. Engineering limitations and human factors limitations combined tend to create deadly crashes. Accidents still happen at roundabouts, sure, but they specifically do not create deadly crashes.
They do have their downsides however, specifically for pedestrians. Roundabouts are miserable for pedestrians, it takes forever to cross around them and it takes tons of caution to cross through them. But hey, that's actually perfect for American arterial roads because America hates pedestrians! It's much less of a compromise when the rest of the infrastructure wasn't designed to support pedestrians anyway, and it's considerably safer and more efficient for cars.
Your opinion of roundabouts is precisely the reason they haven't taken off in the US - frankly, it's laziness. And it's not even a "don't fix what isn't broken" thing because our intersections do not work very well at all lol. It's just straight up laziness, a total disinterest in having to actually think about the task at hand.
@UKMikey the reason conservative tripe spreads so fast is the exact same reason that roundabouts refuse to spread at all: Americans at large are literally stupid. They cannot be bothered to think, can't be bothered to research, can't be bothered to ask questions, can't be bothered to learn, and sure as hell will not tolerate being corrected when wrong. And the kings of these traits are baby boomers, washed up old people who benefitted from America's most productive decades and didn't have to think about a damn thing besides pressing the sheetmetal stamper's two deadman switches at the same time. Meanwhile, they were fed bologna like foie gras ducklings and proceeded to accidentally do everything they could to ruin America for the future, out of sheer laziness and lack of forethought.
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- 7,599
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
I was using theory as in theory, not hypothesis (Evolution thread flashbacks).
I understand this, I've seen the videos. I still think that the statistics may be misleading. Forcing bad drivers to pay attention ends up working out. It may not for drivers that actually do pay attention. That is my hypothesis. I haven't seen supporting evidence, and I haven't gone out of my way to test it, but it seems reasonable to me. If I were to be cloned 100 times with 50 of me forced to take roundabouts and 50 of me forced to drive through intersections, with my clones being the only drivers on the road, I would not be surprised if the roundabout clones crashed more. I readily admit that it's possible this is all my bias though.
You know I haven't really thought about them from the pedestrian point of view, and luckily I've never really dealt with them as a pedestrian.
I am absolutely in favor of more walkable neighborhoods though. I feel like I shouldn't have to have a car to get anything I need. I'd rather shoot for redesigning cities then adding roundabouts, even if it costs more.
I guess I can see why you view it this way, but I disagree completely. I take driving seriously. Even if I don't get into accident I mentally log anything that I consider a close call. I don't shift the blame on other drivers. I am actively aware that I am in a position to kill massive amounts of people just by sitting in the drivers seat. I feel distracted, not focused, at roundabouts. It's why I'll make my drive longer by avoiding them.
EDIT
Thinking about it more, a lot of my disdain toward roundabouts probably comes from a lack of experience. I've been through countless intersections, come up with methods of navigating them, and have had time to make mistakes at them and then learn from those mistakes. My experience with roundabouts is much much less. I don't really have tested strategies for them, I'm not aware of all the mistakes I could make, and generally I have a feel of uncertainty at them that I don't have at regular intersections.
On one hand, I'm just confirming existing researching. On the other, I'm also providing reasoning for my hypothesis above. I guess it just needs to be tested. There may be a chance someone in the field has already done it.
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- 13,140
- Seattle-ish
[wild electric piano solo ensues]
I think roundabouts are an excellent solution to traffic congestion (after better public transport, of course.) Here are a couple of roundabouts that have been installed in my hometown in the last twenty years. The first is a small one in the neighborhood I grew up in. It shows that even older, small residential neighborhoods are adopting roundabouts. The other one used to be a t-intersection on a highly travelled highway. The traffic from the south is going down a steep incline. Now they can merge rather than stop and wait for traffic to clear.
Mythbusters tested a roundabout versus a four-way intersection and found they could move 20% more traffic through a roundabout compared to the traditional intersection. Here they are talking about it.
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Keef
Premium
- 25,003
- Dayton, OH
- GTP_KeefRacer
- GTP Keef
Sounds like that as a good driver you've got enough self awareness to avoid situations you're not comfortable with. That's probably a skill that separates the good drivers from the majority of bad ones
. If you have them near you I definitely recommend more experimentation, especially if they would save you time. I agree that they feel tense but that's the idea.As a driver, my only gripe with them is other people, specifically timid drivers. It's a yield, not a stop, and so many people can't grasp the difference. Yield means use caution and give way if necessary. If necessary. That implies that you have to decide if it's necessary or not. When is the best time to decide if it's necessary? Probably not after you've already come to a full stop at a yield because you're an idiot who can't scan an intersection before you get to it lol.
I personally think it is much easier to scan a roundabout than a four-way stop because traffic is more spread out so visibility it better, and the rules are a lot more concrete: Go if you can, don't if you can't. That's a stark contrast to the go if you should at a four-way stop, because "should" means something different to everybody resulting in hands flailing because one person is trying to be polite, one person is waiting for the others to make a decision, one person isn't coming to a full stop and is faking everybody out, and the fourth person wasn't paying attention and has no idea who's turn it is. That happens like every other cycle at an American four-way stop sign. Roundabouts, you simply go if you can and stop if you can't. But you probably can so get a move on.
So that's the only real key to roundabouts is to slow down and scan ahead so you know if you're going before you ever get to it, and if you're not sure then slow down a little more and figure it out.
As for pedestrian use, it's kind of hilarious. The only real way to cross is to walk the entire length of the outside circle. Recently myself and a crew were walking from the hotel to dinner and decided to experiement with crossing through the center of a roundabout becuase it had nice pavers and pretty flowers on the inside. It took a solid five minutes to get all four of us across lmao. Cars were just coming from every direction possible and of course they never stop and the gaps are irregular so it was total madness. We were laughing halfway through but stayed determined to cross through the center. Virtually impossible and a total waste of time. Unfortunately the actual method of walking around the outside also kills quite a bit of time.
Oh, and the best part of a roundabout is that when it isn't rush hour, and especially when there's no traffic at all, you just cruise on through. It's still considerably quicker and more efficient than the best Calfornia roll you could pull off. The new one near me can be taken straight through at 20mph in a Sequoia no problem.
@Populuxe The number of missed opportunities for roundabouts in my area is staggering. Here's one that has been driving me up a wall for years, literally since I was in high school or not long after. The east-west Alex-Bell road is quite busy all day long and especially at rush hour, with it being part of the only really effective east-west shortcut in this area of town (this is the same road that the new roundabout is on further east). Several schools nearby, shopping centers, etc. But it's completely dead at night because it's primarily a residential area. The road to the south is actually a driveway to a factory and is only used during shift changes - the factory surely petitioned the city to have a light installed to help their employees get to and from work. Problem is, the light is always active 24/7 and is on a timer, not a sensor. Infuriating. I remember one time years ago I was stopped at this light at like 10pm and a cop was stopped going the opposite direction. I was an ass and wanted to prove a point, so I turned on my blinker, turned right into the driveway, turned around, turned my blinker on again, turned right again, and I was on my way. Looked back in my mirror and the cop was still sitting at the red light. I like to imagine that his mind exploded watching that. Anyway, that light only needs to be active literally twice a day and it required all sorts or wiring and electronics and timing and nonsense. They could've just put a roundabout there and let it self-resolve. They use the light as speed regulation anyway (it has the opposite effect of course) and roundabouts are natural speed regulation with zero signal engineering required.
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- 7,599
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
So this got me thinking. I don't have exactly the same experience. I Google mapped the nearest roundabout and as I recalled it has a raised decorative thing in the middle. The perfect size to block visibility on cars coming from the opposite direction. This probably isn't helping my roundabout experience.
I also checked one of the other ones I more recently discovered. The center is full of trees. It reminds me of all the intersections that have conveniently placed bushes at the corners... for reasons.
Now this I can agree with even as someone not entirely onboard with roundabouts. In low traffic conditions, they are unbeatable. Essentially straight road.
CodeRedR51
Premium
- 55,274
- United States
Love me a good roundabout when there's no other traffic and I can get a quick dose of lateral g-forces. 😎
- 5,456
- Alabamistan
There is a roundabout less than half a mile up the road from me. It took the place of a 4 way stop of a north/south 2 lane and an east/west 4 lane road that was a bad choke point especially in evening rush hour traffic. I've lived here for 15 years now and it was built a couple of years after I moved here so I do have some before and after experience with it.
Before if you were coming from the east at 5pm or so the traffic would back up a couple of miles or more. There wasn't as much north/south traffic as this area hadn't built up as much yet but it was still slow going. This roundabout just has a plain concrete one lane center area with shallow sloped sides so if someone does get distracted and cuts slightly across it they won't mess their car up plus you can see the entire area easily.
Now even you're coming from the city to the east at rush hour the traffic still backs up a little but at least it keeps moving for the most part. I remember after it was opened I heard a lot of gripes about it, now no one seems to care anymore, they've just gotten used to it.
I don't have any experience on a roundabout with two lanes or more in the center.
Before if you were coming from the east at 5pm or so the traffic would back up a couple of miles or more. There wasn't as much north/south traffic as this area hadn't built up as much yet but it was still slow going. This roundabout just has a plain concrete one lane center area with shallow sloped sides so if someone does get distracted and cuts slightly across it they won't mess their car up plus you can see the entire area easily.
Now even you're coming from the city to the east at rush hour the traffic still backs up a little but at least it keeps moving for the most part. I remember after it was opened I heard a lot of gripes about it, now no one seems to care anymore, they've just gotten used to it.
I don't have any experience on a roundabout with two lanes or more in the center.
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,368
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
Excellent, roundabouts have come up again, now as you know the UK (and Europe) love roundabouts, because they work, however in my town we also have this little offering:
The Magic Roundabout, five mini-roundabouts with between two and four lanes each, don't get fooled by the thing in the middle, that's not a roundabout, which is actually the clever bit, as it means you get multiple routes from point A to B across it.
This is the traffic sign that greats you:
Not only did I take my driving test with it as part of the test route, but I lived for a decade on the no-through road you can see on the sign above, so I've been over it more times than I can guess and had no choice but to use it when leaving my house in a car for a decade.
More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon)
Oh and Mad Mike once drifted it:
The Magic Roundabout, five mini-roundabouts with between two and four lanes each, don't get fooled by the thing in the middle, that's not a roundabout, which is actually the clever bit, as it means you get multiple routes from point A to B across it.
This is the traffic sign that greats you:
Not only did I take my driving test with it as part of the test route, but I lived for a decade on the no-through road you can see on the sign above, so I've been over it more times than I can guess and had no choice but to use it when leaving my house in a car for a decade.
More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon)
Oh and Mad Mike once drifted it:
- 3,694
- South Australia
Australia has a lot of roundabouts. I used to drive heavy vehicles (including B double trucks) and our major roundabouts are designed so you can effectively go over the top of them. Think of it as a ripple strip on a racetrack, take the right line, drop the inside wheels on the concrete and carry on driving.
The hardest turn in a heavy vehicle on a roundabout is a hard left (or hard right for you US guys). This can normally be navigated by using the roundabout to do this fun manoeuvre.
The ‘magic roundabout’ shown above definitely paints a pretty foreboding picture. It would be a tricky one at first, but like all things practice makes perfect.
When I came across a 4 way stop in the US I thought it was just ridiculously inefficient. Most times I take a roundabout I barely have to even slow down. Coming to a complete stop at every similar intersection in the USA is wasting you guys a lot of time.
Joey D
Premium
- 47,364
- Lakes of the North, MI
- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
I'm still partial to the Michigan Left:
It's really nice not having to deal with a blinking red or waiting for a green arrow to turn left. Just turn right, either on red or green, and then enter the left turn lane, then turn left on either red or green. Plus it elimates the stupid concept of a U-turn at an intersection.
It's really nice not having to deal with a blinking red or waiting for a green arrow to turn left. Just turn right, either on red or green, and then enter the left turn lane, then turn left on either red or green. Plus it elimates the stupid concept of a U-turn at an intersection.
