America - The Official Thread

[FoolKiller]

This happened in my state, so allow me.

So, thoughts on this practice?

It's illegal. The cop broke the law. End of story.

Section 3. (1) Physical restraint shall not be used in a public school or educational program:
(a) As punishment or discipline;
(b) To force compliance or to retaliate;
(c) As a substitute for appropriate educational or behavioral support;
(d) To prevent property damage, except as permitted under KRS Chapter 503;
(e) As a routine school safety measure; or
(f) As a convenience for staff.
(2) School personnel shall not impose the following on any student at any time:
(a) Mechanical restraint;
(b) Chemical restraint;
(c) Aversive behavioral interventions;
(d) Physical restraint that is life-threatening;
(e) Prone or supine restraint; or
(f) Physical restraint if they know that physical restraint is contraindicated based on the student’s disability, health care needs, or medical or psychiatric condition.

Section 3(2)(a) specifically states mechanical restraint is not allowed on any student at any time.

I can't claim to know the full story, but judging by the cop's comments, the kid had been violent... and autistic or not, it's better for everyone around him to let him calm down in a state where he can't hurt anyone else.

According to CNN, the ACLU investigation has the cop stating the boy thrust his elbow back at him. Luckily this is a kid. Adults will get anything from assault and restraining charges to a physical beat down for that.

And it is ADHD, not Autism, which leads this part to not be what I think you think it means:

but also about how most kids in America are being "drugged" these days. I suppose those of us who are familiar with pseudoscience will be quick to recognize what that refers to...

I have personally witnessed a family dealing with a school demanding a student be put on ADHD medication while a child psychologist said it was unnecessary. Faced with dealing with the expense of fighting the school in court or pulling the student out of school, the family chose to homeschool him. Later it was found he had a learning disability, not ADHD. When he reached high school age (grade 9) he went on to a private Catholic School where they worked with his disability and he did fine.


But like I said. The cop broke the law. Nothing else here matters.

 

[Carbonox]

I have personally witnessed a family dealing with a school demanding a student be put on ADHD medication while a child psychologist said it was unnecessary. Faced with dealing with the expense of fighting the school in court or pulling the student out of school, the family chose to homeschool him. Later it was found he had a learning disability, not ADHD. When he reached high school age (grade 9) he went on to a private Catholic School where they worked with his disability and he did fine.

I don't know how ADHD medication works, but actually, the "drugging" accusation refers to vaccines, which brings us to the typical "it's all the government's fault some kids are hyperactive" attitude from uneducated anti-vaxxer parents. :/

 

[FoolKiller]

I don't know how ADHD medication works, but actually, the "drugging" accusation refers to vaccines, which brings us to the typical "it's all the government's fault some kids are hyperactive" attitude from uneducated anti-vaxxer parents. :/

You could have just said they said vaccines.

As this was a case of ADHD, a comment on drugging children sounded more like the 80s and 90s habit of putting kids on ADHD drugs and antidepressants, some of which were found to be harmful to young kids an adolescents. That too was considered pseudoscience until the drug companies themselves put out warnings on monitoring their use on people under the age of 21. I hope you can understand how your vagueness made it easy for me to make that mistake.

 

[GTsail]

Third grader:
---------------
From one news report, I heard that the reason the handcuffs were around the kid's arms is that they wouldn't fit securely around the kid's wrists.

Perhaps an indication that the handcuffs shouldn't have been used at all.......

GTsail

 

[FoolKiller]

Third grader:
---------------
From one news report, I heard that the reason the handcuffs were around the kid's arms is that they wouldn't fit securely around the kid's wrists.

Perhaps an indication that the handcuffs shouldn't have been used at all.......

GTsail

You mean, they weren't designed for use on kids? To use Kentucky parlance, Whoda thunk it?



One of my issues with resource officers in schools is that they shouldn't be used for general disciplinary purposes. You don't need a cop to deal with an unruly child. They should be there for three reasons:

1) Be available to help children feel safe around police and be willing to find them for help.

2) Act as a form of security from any outside threat or a first responder in emergencies.

3) Deal with instances of illegal activity on behalf of the students, such as drug use, vandalism, etc.

Things a cop should not deal with:

Throwing paper balls.
Disruptive students.
Cheating.
Tardiness.
Chewing gum.
Using cell phones.
Insubordination.
Foul language.
Verbal fights.
Bullying.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Things a cop should not deal with:

Throwing paper balls.
Disruptive students.
Cheating.
Tardiness.
Chewing gum.
Using cell phones.
Insubordination.
Foul language.
Verbal fights.
Bullying.

I couldn't agree more. Cops have no business in an elementary school unless a real crime has been/is being committed.

Section 3(2)(a) specifically states mechanical restraint is not allowed on any student at any time.

I am not so sure the law was broken here.

Section 3(2) says, "School personnel shall not...".

School employees are not trained in restraining kids, so I can understand the law prohibiting this.

But this was a deputy sheriff. Like I said before though, the cop should not have even been there.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Section 3(2) says, "School personnel shall not...".

@FoolKiller drew your attention to other parts of the code too, the Section you quote is not the most relevant to this case.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

@FoolKiller drew your attention to other parts of the code too, the Section you quote is not the most relevant to this case.

I will admit, I did not read all 3200 + words that he linked to in the Kentucky state code, but the part he highlighted was not talking about law enforcement officers mechanically restraining children. It was about school personnel.

I went back and re-read all of his posts, If you could please point to what other parts of the code (the most relevant parts), @FoolKiller drew my attention too, I would be most grateful.

 

[Corsa]

@FoolKiller

I've recently ran into some medical issues that I am trying to get taken care of without insurance and it's been an extreme uphill battle. I have the money to pay but it seems no one is willing to treat me, it is very disappointing to say the least.

What is the deal with that? I've done a bit of research but I can't see a legal reason I am denied services ffs... figured you might have some insight.

My wife is in medical billing, just asked her opinion on this.
She said her office will not accept self pay patients either, strictly on the idea the patient would need further testing from a third party source. Such as bloodwork, xrays, or biopsy. Most times the patient can afford the doctors services, but not the lab or xray tests.
The only real way to get around it is to go to the hospital, which I don't know anyone that can afford dropping cash at the ER.

 

[Omnis]

I couldn't agree more. Cops have no business in an elementary school unless a real crime has been/is being committed.



I am not so sure the law was broken here.

Section 3(2) says, "School personnel shall not...".

School employees are not trained in restraining kids, so I can understand the law prohibiting this.

But this was a deputy sheriff. Like I said before though, the cop should not have even been there.

School resource officer = school personnel. Every public school has an officer attached just in case of emergencies. The security team is usually a head of security paired with a sworn officer. Civilians can't arrest people, etc. Typically the security guy or his assistants will deal with problem students. The officer doesn't directly interact with students unless there's a serious problem that would require him acting as a police officer.

Cuffing a student is so, so, so against the law.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Cuffing a student is so, so, so against the law.

Would it have made a difference if it had been a high school student that swung at the cop and got cuffed? The law doesn't specify age or grade.

A CNN report said the incident in the video happened last fall. If this were illegal I think we would have heard from the Kentucky State Police by now.

 

[Swagger897]

A CNN report said the incident in the video happened last fall. If this were illegal I think we would have heard from the Kentucky State Police by now.

A lot of things happen a long time ago. To them, and myself, this probably wasn't something serious enough to have paid time devoted to figure out what happened.

But that doesn't mean society won't cry about it and want little jr. to know the big man in green wasn't gonna hurt him..

 

[FoolKiller]

Would it have made a difference if it had been a high school student that swung at the cop and got cuffed? The law doesn't specify age or grade.

Define "swung at the cop." According to the CNN report, in an investigative report that is cited in the lawsuit, the officer said in an interview that the kid thrust his elbow back at him. If that was all any kid did, then yes, it would make no difference.

As for a nearly-adult teen taking a full on swing at an officer with intent to assault him, then you get into the teen violating the law. Then the matter becomes a criminal case and the law specifically states that it does not apply to law enforcement. You can arrest a kid in school, and use handcuffs in the process, for violating the law. You cannot use handcuffs as a disciplinary action.

Other side of the coin: Would you personally file assault charges against a young child that hit you while flailing about in a tantrum?

A CNN report said the incident in the video happened last fall. If this were illegal I think we would have heard from the Kentucky State Police by now.

It just got in the news because the ACLU is filing a lawsuit partly because no action was taken at the time. The lack of legal charges is part of the issue. I also don't know when the teacher released the video for the parents to see it, so that could also be a variable.

A lot of things happen a long time ago. To them, and myself, this probably wasn't something serious enough to have paid time devoted to figure out what happened.

But that doesn't mean society won't cry about it and want little jr. to know the big man in green wasn't gonna hurt him..

Accuse an officer of violating the law, and it is crying. When are we allowed to condemn illegal activity by police and be taken seriously?

 

[DK]

"Nearly every person I worked with, I saw cry at their desk." Life at Amazon: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/1...g-workplace.html?smid=tw-share&_r=2&referrer=

 

[Sanji Himura]

I have personally witnessed a family dealing with a school demanding a student be put on ADHD medication while a child psychologist said it was unnecessary. Faced with dealing with the expense of fighting the school in court or pulling the student out of school, the family chose to homeschool him. Later it was found he had a learning disability, not ADHD. When he reached high school age (grade 9) he went on to a private Catholic School where they worked with his disability and he did fine.


But like I said. The cop broke the law. Nothing else here matters.

I was one such case. The schools diagnosed me as ADHD when I actually had Autism that went undiagnosed until age 17. As a result, I am quite shameful of any parent who takes the school's word for their child's mental health without getting a second opinion from a licensed psychologist. Often times, the school makes it worse for everyone involved.

 

[Northstar]

"Nearly every person I worked with, I saw cry at their desk." Life at Amazon: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/1...g-workplace.html?smid=tw-share&_r=2&referrer=

If only there were some way for those poor souls to escape from there...

 

[DK]

If only I could be so dismissive of a poisonous corporate culture.

 

[TexRex]

Florida...

 

[FoolKiller]

"Nearly every person I worked with, I saw cry at their desk." Life at Amazon: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/1...g-workplace.html?smid=tw-share&_r=2&referrer=

That actually sounds like how I work regularly.

 

[Northstar]

If only I could be so dismissive of a poisonous corporate culture.

There's nothing keeping them from finding employment elsewhere if they dislike working for Amazon that much. It's also not like Amazon treating their employees like crap is new knowledge, it's been known for some time so chances are the employees knew what they were getting into or didn't research before taking the job.

I also found the comments on that article rather humorous as most retail places treat their employees like dirt.

 

[Aesthetics]

I never talk about politics online, but I'm really, really, pissed off right now.
Long story short, Donald Trump wants to remove the 14th amendment, likely so he can deport the children of immigrants.

I am the child of immigrants. My parents legally immigrated here, but I guess that won't make a difference to Trump. I won't let this man strip my rights as a U.S. Citizen. I'm worried that each day this idiot gains media exposure that people will vote for him "because it'll be funny".

 

[Dennisch]

If Trump becomes Potus I'm going to let my hair grow and comb it over just like him.

 

[DK]

There's nothing keeping them from finding employment elsewhere if they dislike working for Amazon that much. It's also not like Amazon treating their employees like crap is new knowledge, it's been known for some time so chances are the employees knew what they were getting into or didn't research before taking the job.

I also found the comments on that article rather humorous as most retail places treat their employees like dirt.

I don't see how that excuses Amazon (or any company for that matter) continuing to treat their employees like dirt.

 

[Adamgp]

I don't post in here much, but Trump's reason for repealing the 14th amendment is to prevent children of illegal immigrants from automatically gaining citizenship. Children of legal immigrants will be fine.

Most links seem to be leaving out the legal/illegal bit to make it seem Trump is against all immigrants.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Most links seem to be leaving out the legal/illegal bit to make it seem Trump is against all immigrants.

Including his own family? That's a shaky position.

 

[FoolKiller]

I never talk about politics online, but I'm really, really, pissed off right now.
Long story short, Donald Trump wants to remove the 14th amendment, likely so he can deport the children of immigrants.

I am the child of immigrants. My parents legally immigrated here, but I guess that won't make a difference to Trump. I won't let this man strip my rights as a U.S. Citizen. I'm worried that each day this idiot gains media exposure that people will vote for him "because it'll be funny".

He's talking about anchor babies, and only so that he could deport the children with the illegal immigrant parents.

I don't see how that excuses Amazon (or any company for that matter) continuing to treat their employees like dirt.

Because employment is a voluntary agreement between two parties. An employee who stays there and works in that environment is choosing to do so.

 

[DK]

I guess I have a thing against a race to the bottom.

 

[Touring Mars]

If Trump becomes Potus I'm going to let my hair grow and comb it over just like him.

The mind boggles as to what you might do if Hillary becomes POTUS.

 

[FoolKiller]

I guess I have a thing against a race to the bottom.

From what I have heard from people who work in their facilities in Kentucky, if you can cut it there you can move up fast.

Do you get upset when you hear about how medical school has that one year that is incredibly rough and basically cuts out those who can't cut it as doctors? Amazon has a certain expectation of success. You can meet that expectation or leave. They started out in the tech boom, survived the .com crash with barely a hiccup, and have become one of the most successful Internet companies in the world, now not only selling books, music, movies, and TV, but are now content creators of multiple forms of multimedia.


This all reminds me of Glengarry Glen Ross.

The mind boggles as to what you might do if Hillary becomes POTUS.

Wear sensible pant suits and change his hair every two years?

 

[Dennisch]

The mind boggles as to what you might do if Hillary becomes POTUS.

Dunno, my hair isn't voluptuous enough anymore to rock a Hilldog coupe.