America - The Official Thread

[a6m5]

Victory equals an Iraqi government who can sustain itself as a sovereign nation.

I was against the invasion of Iraq, but I do agree with this. I think leaving Iraq prematurely would be worse than the actual invasion of Iraq.

 

[Solid Fro]

I was against the invasion of Iraq, but I do agree with this. I think leaving Iraq prematurely would be worse than the actual invasion of Iraq.

I can agree to that.

I wish more Democrats were like you and Lieberman. I read his latest article and I am impressed that he stood up and told the truth, unlike most in his party.

 

[ledhed]

When the Iraqis stand up, we stand down.

Victory equals all military objectives have been accomplished. When the commanders in the field give the command to return home. Victory equals an Iraqi government who can sustain itself as a sovereign nation.

There you go . Could not have said it better . 👍

 

[MinorShunt]

I can agree to that.

I wish more Democrats were like you and Lieberman. I read his latest article and I am impressed that he stood up and told the truth, unlike most in his party.

Ahhhhh. So it's truth we're interested in now. Let me ask, is it the whole truth you are concerned with or convenient truths? Why don't we look at some "truths" about this whole mess.

1. The U.S. government got us into this mess. NOT republicans, NOT democrats. OUR elected government.

2. We are fighting a war that was entered into with proven falsehoods. By Colin Powell's own recent admission, the address he made to the United Nations "proving" that Iraq had WMD was the worst mistake of his career. The US and UK, by admission were both negligent in their gathering of intel, and interpretation of said intel. Therefore the reasons for attacking Iraq were baseless.

3. Our sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, brothers, and sisters in the military are paying the ultimate price for our government's ineptitude. Are you saying that we as citizens should not defend them against self-interested political and military leaders they are bound by duty to obey? What other recourse do they have? I put it to you that it is just as patriotic, and supportive of our military for us to question the authority which has placed them in harms way.

4. WE have made a big mess of things in the world. Yes of course we need to stay in Iraq to provide stability. We bombed the hell out of them, destroyed their infrastructure, dismantled their admittedly corrupt and repressive government, and disbanded their entire military and police force. To pull out now would be just as assinine as going in the first place. Taking too long you say? Well look at the situation! We have jackbooted a mostly educated, proud people to the point of them living like animals! How do you pick up and move on when there's nothing to move on to? No shelter. No food. No water. Afraid every day for your life. Think about it. How would YOU react in that situation. It is only worse that ALL of your friends and neighbors are in the same predicament. There is NO ONE to help! That atmosphere of desperation is what breeds the type of insurrection we are seeing. Not to mention the striking cultural differences between our countries.

Now ask yourself why it is that the rest of the world has such an overall negative view of America and Americans.

We are the only remaining superpower. (for now) We exert our political and military will on the rest of the world in our own self interest. We export our version of morality and religiousity to the rest of the world whether they want it or not. As a people we exhibit amazing arrogance in the face of overwhelming evidence of our mistakes and ineptitudes. It's just not American to admit to mistakes is it? We would rather look like idiots to the rest of the world. BAH!!

Ask yourself where the rest of the world gets their opinions on America and Americans. Does Hollywood ring a bell? What the hell does Hollywood have to do with who we are except to pander to the lowest common denominator among us! News media? What a joke! The mainstream media has one concern, and that is generating ad revenue. What would you think if you lived in another part of the world and were constantly bombarded with the kind of crap we have on TV and in movies day after day, year after year. My guess is that you would start thinking that America is pretty screwed up. That is exactly what is happening, and we see some of that evidence in this thread. More and more of the world is perceiving us to be fat, loud, lazy, arrogant, egocentric, uneducated, criminal sociopaths......and our government and mainstream media isn't doing a thing to alter that perception.

Don't get me wrong. I am just as patriotic as anyone. I love my country, it's people, and the freedoms that we enjoy. The US of A has been very good to me and mine. I would defend her to the death against all foreign and domestic threats. But we the people, is not the same as we the Republicans, or we the Democrats. It is all of us. I can sit down and have a beer with anyone and discuss politics with diverse opinions as long as we are honest. We ALL have to open our eyes to the truth. Look at both sides of an argument before spouting the party line, or the media line, and form our opinions based on fact. Have the balls to call a spade and spade whether it's popular or not.

Ms. Sheehan is indeed acting in self interest. SHE HAS THAT RIGHT!!! She is grieving for a dead son whose life, from her perspective was taken unjustly. She has a right to question our national leaders. So what if no one showed up at her little event. She has repeatedly shown courage and determination in the face of ridicule and negative public opinion. Even if her actions are misguided and ultimately futile, at least she cares enough for the rest of the mothers in this country to try..... in a way she has chosen....... to fight for the lives of those still in harms way. I may, or may not agree with her, but I sure won't ridicule her for her stand!

Mother Moonbat?
SHAME ON YOU SIR! SHAME!

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Ahhhhh. So it's truth we're interested in now. Let me ask, is it the whole truth you are concerned with or convenient truths? Why don't we look at some "truths" about this whole mess.

1. The U.S. government got us into this mess. NOT republicans, NOT democrats. OUR elected government.

Partisan politics...

2. We are fighting a war that was entered into with proven falsehoods. By Colin Powell's own recent admission, the address he made to the United Nations "proving" that Iraq had WMD was the worst mistake of his career. The US and UK, by admission were both negligent in their gathering of intel, and interpretation of said intel. Therefore the reasons for attacking Iraq were baseless.

Not entirely baseless... mostly baseless. We only exacerbated the issue.

3. Our sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, brothers, and sisters in the military are paying the ultimate price for our government's ineptitude.

Wouldn't be the first time.

Are you saying that we as citizens should not defend them against self-interested political and military leaders they are bound by duty to obey? What other recourse do they have? I put it to you that it is just as patriotic, and supportive of our military for us to question the authority which has placed them in harms way.

👍

4. WE have made a big mess of things in the world. Yes of course we need to stay in Iraq to provide stability. We bombed the hell out of them, destroyed their infrastructure, dismantled their admittedly corrupt and repressive government, and disbanded their entire military and police force. To pull out now would be just as assinine as going in the first place. Taking too long you say? Well look at the situation! We have jackbooted a mostly educated, proud people to the point of them living like animals! How do you pick up and move on when there's nothing to move on to? No shelter. No food. No water. Afraid every day for your life. Think about it. How would YOU react in that situation. It is only worse that ALL of your friends and neighbors are in the same predicament. There is NO ONE to help! That atmosphere of desperation is what breeds the type of insurrection we are seeing. Not to mention the striking cultural differences between our countries.

Well said.

Now ask yourself why it is that the rest of the world has such an overall negative view of America and Americans.

We are Rome.

We are the only remaining superpower. (for now) We exert our political and military will on the rest of the world in our own self interest. We export our version of morality and religiousity to the rest of the world whether they want it or not. As a people we exhibit amazing arrogance in the face of overwhelming evidence of our mistakes and ineptitudes. It's just not American to admit to mistakes is it?

Nice to see I'm not the only "Blame-America-First" liberal on the board. j/k

Ask yourself where the rest of the world gets their opinions on America and Americans. Does Hollywood ring a bell? What the hell does Hollywood have to do with who we are except to pander to the lowest common denominator among us! News media? What a joke! The mainstream media has one concern, and that is generating ad revenue.

Nothing more.

What would you think if you lived in another part of the world and were constantly bombarded with the kind of crap we have on TV and in movies day after day, year after year. My guess is that you would start thinking that America is pretty screwed up. That is exactly what is happening, and we see some of that evidence in this thread. More and more of the world is perceiving us to be fat, loud, lazy, arrogant, egocentric, uneducated, criminal sociopaths......and our government and mainstream media isn't doing a thing to alter that perception.

Why would they?

Don't get me wrong. I am just as patriotic as anyone. I love my country, it's people, and the freedoms that we enjoy. The US of A has been very good to me and mine. I would defend her to the death against all foreign and domestic threats. But we the people, is not the same as we the Republicans, or we the Democrats. It is all of us. I can sit down and have a beer with anyone and discuss politics with diverse opinions as long as we are honest. We ALL have to open our eyes to the truth. Look at both sides of an argument before spouting the party line, or the media line, and form our opinions based on fact. Have the balls to call a spade and spade whether it's popular or not.

Tried. Failed.

Ms. Sheehan is indeed acting in self interest. SHE HAS THAT RIGHT!!! She is grieving for a dead son whose life, from her perspective was taken unjustly. She has a right to question our national leaders. So what if no one showed up at her little event.

Ultimately, the location of the event was the problem.

She has repeatedly shown courage and determination in the face of ridicule and negative public opinion. Even if her actions are misguided and ultimately futile, at least she cares enough for the rest of the mothers in this country to try..... in a way she has chosen....... to fight for the lives of those still in harms way. I may, or may not agree with her, but I sure won't ridicule her for her stand!

Mother Moonbat?
SHAME ON YOU SIR! SHAME!

There you go . Could not have said it better . 👍 (<<< quote = Mike )

 

[Joey D]

1. The U.S. government got us into this mess. NOT republicans, NOT democrats. OUR elected government.

Yup because our government isn't all Republican, there are plenty of elected Democrats in our government. But then again no body is perfect.

2. We are fighting a war that was entered into with proven falsehoods. By Colin Powell's own recent admission, the address he made to the United Nations "proving" that Iraq had WMD was the worst mistake of his career. The US and UK, by admission were both negligent in their gathering of intel, and interpretation of said intel. Therefore the reasons for attacking Iraq were baseless.

There were WMD in Iraq, we couldn't find them because they were hidden or they were moved to another country. There aren't any there now, but there WERE there at one time. So we acted on outdated info, not the first time that's ever happened. But once again no body is perfect.

3. Our sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, brothers, and sisters in the military are paying the ultimate price for our government's ineptitude. Are you saying that we as citizens should not defend them against self-interested political and military leaders they are bound by duty to obey? What other recourse do they have? I put it to you that it is just as patriotic, and supportive of our military for us to question the authority which has placed them in harms way.

Happens all the time, this is war boys and girls, not happy go fun time. Of course people are going to die, but everyone that signed up for the military knew damn well what they could have gotten into.

4. WE have made a big mess of things in the world. Yes of course we need to stay in Iraq to provide stability. We bombed the hell out of them, destroyed their infrastructure, dismantled their admittedly corrupt and repressive government, and disbanded their entire military and police force. To pull out now would be just as assinine as going in the first place. Taking too long you say? Well look at the situation! We have jackbooted a mostly educated, proud people to the point of them living like animals! How do you pick up and move on when there's nothing to move on to? No shelter. No food. No water. Afraid every day for your life. Think about it. How would YOU react in that situation. It is only worse that ALL of your friends and neighbors are in the same predicament. There is NO ONE to help! That atmosphere of desperation is what breeds the type of insurrection we are seeing. Not to mention the striking cultural differences between our countries.

Actually I work with a few Iraqi's and they all agree the US has done the right think and they think their families in the country are now safer that Sadam is out of power. In fact they are greatful to the fact. Don't listen to the biased media, actually ask an Iraqi what they think.

We are the only remaining superpower. (for now) We exert our political and military will on the rest of the world in our own self interest. We export our version of morality and religiousity to the rest of the world whether they want it or not. As a people we exhibit amazing arrogance in the face of overwhelming evidence of our mistakes and ineptitudes. It's just not American to admit to mistakes is it? We would rather look like idiots to the rest of the world. BAH!!

The reason we push Democracy is due to Wilsonianism I believe. I think that's what its called, but I can't remember history class. But honestly blame the Democrats like Roosevelt for pushing Democrcy on everyone, it started a long time ago. President Bush isn't the first one to do this.

Ask yourself where the rest of the world gets their opinions on America and Americans. Does Hollywood ring a bell? What the hell does Hollywood have to do with who we are except to pander to the lowest common denominator among us! News media? What a joke! The mainstream media has one concern, and that is generating ad revenue. What would you think if you lived in another part of the world and were constantly bombarded with the kind of crap we have on TV and in movies day after day, year after year. My guess is that you would start thinking that America is pretty screwed up. That is exactly what is happening, and we see some of that evidence in this thread. More and more of the world is perceiving us to be fat, loud, lazy, arrogant, egocentric, uneducated, criminal sociopaths......and our government and mainstream media isn't doing a thing to alter that perception.

We have better things to worry about then how we are precieved. Our country is messed up not because of the government, but because of the media, and we can't do anything about that.

 

[smellysocks12]

One of my friends went to the USA for half a year and he hardly watched any tv at all. We get a lot of commercials in Europe already, but in the USA he said that the commercials are sometimes interrupted by a couple of minutes of the actual program, instead of the other way around. My dad who went there a couple of times for his work, also told me that you guys have so many different channels, but they are all the same, showing nothing interesting and when you finally do find something interesting it constantly gets interrupted. Also the level of propaganda and nationalism was really sickening on a lot of channels. The one I regularly watch, CNN, seems to be quite a fair channel to me though. While the internet probably reduced the amount of ignorance in the world (not only the USA) about the world, it is still scary that a lot of people get most of their information, which they base their opinions on, from tv.

 

[Joey D]

One of my friends went to the USA for half a year and he hardly watched any tv at all. We get a lot of commercials in Europe already, but in the USA he said that the commercials are sometimes interrupted by a couple of minutes of the actual program, instead of the other way around. My dad who went there a couple of times for his work, also told me that you guys have so many different channels, but they are all the same, showing nothing interesting and when you finally do find something interesting it constantly gets interrupted. Also the level of propaganda and nationalism was really sickening on a lot of channels. The one I regularly watch, CNN, seems to be quite a fair channel to me though. While the internet probably reduced the amount of ignorance in the world (not only the USA) about the world, it is still scary that a lot of people get most of their information, which they base their opinions on, from tv.

What a misinformed post. The reason we have so many channels is because there is money to set them up and people watch them. Also there aren't that many commericals on TV. I don't think so, not on the channels I watch at least.

And propaganda? So all our shows should be like "**** the USA"? No we are Americans, we enjoy listening to things that don't insult our country because someone thinks it isn't right. So therefore I shouldn't be listening to you, because all you seem to do is B**** about America with no facts.

CNN a fair channel ! That's funny. CNN = Left, liberal tv. Fox News = Right, conservative tv.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

There were WMD in Iraq, we couldn't find them because they were hidden or they were moved to another country.

WMDs that we supplied. Some plan that was.

Happens all the time, this is war boys and girls, not happy go fun time. Of course people are going to die, but everyone that signed up for the military knew damn well what they could have gotten into.

Not if the information was "misguided" or as you said "outdated".

But honestly blame the Democrats like Roosevelt for pushing Democrcy on everyone, it started a long time ago. President Bush isn't the first one to do this.

I wouldn't say we push democracy on everyone. We push democracy when it's convenient, and we push repressive regimes when it suits our needs.

We have better things to worry about then how we are precieved. Our country is messed up not because of the government, but because of the media, and we can't do anything about that.

Our country is not "messed up". We are acting in a manner any superpower would. The media (as messed up as that is) is the least of our problems.

What a misinformed post. The reason we have so many channels is because there is money to set them up and people watch them. Also there aren't that many commericals on TV. I don't think so, not on the channels I watch at least.

True.

And propaganda? So all our shows should be like "**** the USA"? No we are Americans, we enjoy listening to things that don't insult our country because someone thinks it isn't right.

Not necessarily, but it would be nice to have shows that present both sides of the issue.

CNN a fair channel ! That's funny. CNN = Left, liberal tv. Fox News = Right, conservative tv.

CNN = center to right-of-center
Fox News = far right

 

[Joey D]

WMDs that we supplied. Some plan that was.

Sadam produced his own weapons as well.

Not if the information was "misguided" or as you said "outdated".

There were weapons there at some point in time, when we got there they had been moved making the data we had out dated.

I wouldn't say we push democracy on everyone. We push democracy when it's convenient, and we push repressive regimes when it suits our needs.

We push it on a lot of people, but like I said that's because of Roosevelt's policies back in the 40's.

Our country is not "messed up". We are acting in a manner any superpower would. The media (as messed up as that is) is the least of our problems.

I think many aspects of our country are "messed up". You can sue over everything, you have to be PC on everything you say, you can't offend anyone, stuff like that...it's messed up.

Not necessarily, but it would be nice to have shows that present both sides of the issue.

I wouldn't want to watch an Anti-American TV network, our country may not be perfect but I don't like hearing people tell me how bad it is.

CNN = center to right-of-center
Fox News = far right

CNN is very liberal in my opinion and Fox News is very conservative. It all depends on your ideology on which one you watch. I can't stand CNN, but I do enjoy watching Fox News, but I'm fairly conservative so that's why.

 

[MinorShunt]

Yup because our government isn't all Republican, there are plenty of elected Democrats in our government. But then again no body is perfect.

Agreed. But simply accepting the status quo encourages future "imperfections."

There were WMD in Iraq, we couldn't find them because they were hidden or they were moved to another country. There aren't any there now, but there WERE there at one time. So we acted on outdated info, not the first time that's ever happened. But once again no body is perfect.

same answer as above.

Happens all the time, this is war boys and girls, not happy go fun time. Of course people are going to die, but everyone that signed up for the military knew damn well what they could have gotten into.

Easy to say unless you are the one doing the dying.

Actually I work with a few Iraqi's and they all agree the US has done the right think and they think their families in the country are now safer that Sadam is out of power. In fact they are greatful to the fact. Don't listen to the biased media, actually ask an Iraqi what they think.

I don't know any Iraqi's personally, but I think that it is too early to determine the long term effects of the incursion. It will be interesting to ask the same question in 10 years.

The reason we push Democracy is due to Wilsonianism I believe. I think that's what its called, but I can't remember history class. But honestly blame the Democrats like Roosevelt for pushing Democrcy on everyone, it started a long time ago. President Bush isn't the first one to do this.

Roosevelt and Truman had no choice. They learned from recent history, ie WWI, that punishing a defeated enemy only made things worse.

We have better things to worry about then how we are precieved. Our country is messed up not because of the government, but because of the media, and we can't do anything about that.

Statement 1. I disagree. The world is not how it used to be. Our actions/inactions affect not only our fellow Americans, but our fellow citizens in the world at large, simply because we are so powerful. We have a responsibiliity to respect others and their differences without resorting to strongarm tactics. In other words, diplomacy, but from a position of undeniable power.

Statement 2. I agree that a lot of our problems are caused by the sensationalist media. I agree that there are many competent, well meaning political leaders in government. Both Democrat and Republican. I disagree that there is nothing we can do about the media. Their product is made for our consumption. I we all started to demand a good sit down dinner instead of the happy meal they offer, they would have no choice but to change. We are the customer! And if more people would take an interest in intelligent and respectful discourse as we are in this forum, I think that people would hunger for more competency in government and the media instead of accepting the status quo.

Thank you for your thoughtful responses! 👍

 

[Joey D]

Easy to say unless you are the one doing the dying.

I'd be there if I didn't have heart and knee problems. I tried signing up for the Marine Corps but I could not make due to health problems. Trust me I wanted to serve my country.

I don't know any Iraqi's personally, but I think that it is too early to determine the long term effects of the incursion. It will be interesting to ask the same question in 10 years.

I'm sure Iraqi's are better off now that Sadam is out of power, it won't be perfect, but it is better then it was. That is a step in the right direction.

Roosevelt and Truman had no choice. They learned from recent history, ie WWI, that punishing a defeated enemy only made things worse.

But they pushed on with their policies, which is result started the Cold War. If they didn't think everyone should have been a Democracy then they wouldn't have been pissed at the Communist. And since the Cold War went on for what like 40 years, people just accepted it.

Statement 1. I disagree. The world is not how it used to be. Our actions/inactions affect not only our fellow Americans, but our fellow citizens in the world at large, simply because we are so powerful. We have a responsibiliity to respect others and their differences without resorting to strongarm tactics. In other words, diplomacy, but from a position of undeniable power.

The US interviens and people get pissed, if we don't people get pissed. Americans are damned if we do and damned if we don't I think.

Statement 2. I agree that a lot of our problems are caused by the sensationalist media. I agree that there are many competent, well meaning political leaders in government. Both Democrat and Republican. I disagree that there is nothing we can do about the media. Their product is made for our consumption. I we all started to demand a good sit down dinner instead of the happy meal they offer, they would have no choice but to change. We are the customer! And if more people would take an interest in intelligent and respectful discourse as we are in this forum, I think that people would hunger for more competency in government and the media instead of accepting the status quo.

Freedom of speech protects the media, which I think they abuse.

 

[smellysocks12]

What a misinformed post. The reason we have so many channels is because there is money to set them up and people watch them. Also there aren't that many commericals on TV. I don't think so, not on the channels I watch at least.

And propaganda? So all our shows should be like "**** the USA"? No we are Americans, we enjoy listening to things that don't insult our country because someone thinks it isn't right. So therefore I shouldn't be listening to you, because all you seem to do is B**** about America with no facts.

CNN a fair channel ! That's funny. CNN = Left, liberal tv. Fox News = Right, conservative tv.

The propaganda is working.




The we are rich, we are strong, we aren't to blame message is the only one being broadcasted by channels like Fox, while most other channels will only broadcast the message "BUY THIS"... with some fair ones left, which some of you can't stand.



By the way, whether you're better off in Iraq now as an Iraqi all depends on whether you're a Sunite, a Sjiite or a Kurd. The strong ones got weaker and the weaker regained their position. Only the future will tell whether they're better off now. I won't disagree with the fact that Saddam was undermining his own country, though.

 

[Joey D]

The propaganda is working.

Jesus quit saying stuff with out backing it up some how. HOW THE HELL IS IT WORKING!?!?!

The we are rich, we are strong, we aren't to blame message is the only one being broadcasted by channels like Fox, while most other channels will only broadcast the message "BUY THIS"... with some fair ones left, which some of you can't stand.

The only two channels I can see on TV that want me to buy things are...QVC and The Home Shopping Network. Commericals pay for TV, its called capitalism, you sell things in order to make money so you can live your life.

By the way, whether you're better off in Iraq now as an Iraqi all depends on whether you're a Sunite, a Sjiite or a Kurd. The strong ones got weaker and the weaker regained their position. Only the future will tell whether they're better off now. I won't disagree with the fact that Saddam was undermining his own country, though.

The few Iraqi's I've talked to think what we did was the right thing, and I'm going to believe an Iraqi over anyone else since it is their country.

 

[s0nny80y]

When the Iraqis stand up, we stand down.

Victory equals all military objectives have been accomplished. When the commanders in the field give the command to return home. Victory equals an Iraqi government who can sustain itself as a sovereign nation.

This is an abstract statement.

What do you mean by when the Iraqis stand up? 51% of the voting age population that actually vote? When corrupt leading officials--such as police sheriffs--are finally weeded out? Or when every evil thought about the US is wiped out of an Iraqi citizen's mind, affected by collateral damage from an Allied bomb?

Also, please outline those key specific military objectives because an immediate pull-out is highly unlikely.

Can an assesment of a government be effectivley done to determine that it is self-sustaining in the course of a year or less? Or perhaps five years when the results are more visible? And if it's five years, does that mean US military presence for five years???

It took the US for years to clean itself up after the American Revolution and even then, that lead to Civil War.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Learning from US history, let Iraq decide their own fate without the presence of an overwhelming foreign influence. Honestly, if the Iraqi's really want democracy, the right people in Iraq would win ANY civil war that could potentially erupt because the people would support their democratic leader, right? Hell, it's their own country.

Look at the USSR and how the want for democracy was 'clearly' there with the drop of the Berlin Wall. If it happens, it happens. All we (the US) should do as a capitalist nation is to start trading with the newly opened market and let Western business, education, and culture do its work.

We should support the right people with the military arms and training, not security. Look at Israel. We traded and armed them and now they're a tiny capitalist Jewish state fighting their own battles in the Middle East. We don't need to provide the physical security of the US army. We just needed to provide the appropriate funds and arms.

If we can still save face in Vietnam and churn one of the most thriving capitalist economies in the Pacific theatre years and years later, we could do the same with our troops in Iraq: with less casualties than those US casualties in Vietnam.

 

[a6m5]

For the record, I couldn't belive the amount of commercial shown on American TV either. The lengths of commercials were super long too. Americans are being ripped off by the networks and cable companies, and they don't even know it. In Portland(OR) area, you pay $40 - $50 every month for fairly basic cable, and you watch the commercial marathon on top of that. What a nerve!

 

[Solid Fro]

Sonyboy, you are an abstract statement.

If you want a list of military objectives, then you need to contact the United States Marine Corps, not me. It is only when the commanders in the field say they have completed their mission, not me, not the politicians, not the talking heads on TV, and definitely not the Anti-American/Anti-War bigots.

For the record, I couldn't believe the amount of commercial shown on American TV either. The lengths of commercials were super long too. Americans are being ripped off by the networks and cable companies, and they don't even know it. In Portland(OR) area, you pay $40 - $50 every month for fairly basic cable, and you watch the commercial marathon on top of that. What a nerve!

I would love to pick and choose what channels I get. ESPN, Fox News, G4, Speed Channel, Discovery Military, some Japanese channels, and HBO. The only digital channels I watch are Speed and G4, the rest are basic channels, and I would have to pay extra to get Discovery Military!

Here's an article about "a la carte" cable at engadget: http://engadget.com/entry/1234000760070613/

 

[s0nny80y]

viper 0, if anything, the public shouldn't be informed of the military's objectives in order to keep us guessing

 

[Zardoz]

Another unforeseen result:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10285078/

This has been developing for months. Hard-line Shiites and their militias are running the southern part of Iraq now, and their sympathies are with their fellow Shiites in Iran. The Brit soldiers won't challenge them because they know what a catastrophic eruption would occur if they did.

This is not getting much play in the press yet, but it will. It's a disaster that is unfolding very quietly.

Anybody who thinks Iraq is going to end up being anything even vaguely resembling what we want it to be are being unrealistic and naive.

 

[a6m5]

Anybody who thinks Iraq is going to end up being anything even vaguely resembling what we want it to be are being unrealistic and naive.

You could be right about that, but I think it will get far messier if U.S. just stood up and left. I think that will fuel the fire not only in Iraq, but all of Middle East. Middle East will be a very scary place(even worse than now...).

 

[Diego440]

Just a little side not that has much to do with the topic...

Also, please outline those key specific military objectives because an immediate pull-out is highly unlikely.

Operation Iraqi Freedom (aka Operation Iraqi Liberation ) had the following military objectives, according to U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld:

1. to end the regime of Saddam Hussein.
2. to identify, isolate and eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.
3. to search for, to capture and to drive out terrorists from that country.
4. to collect such intelligence as we can related to terrorist networks.
5. to collect such intelligence as we can related to the global network of illicit weapons of mass destruction
6. to end sanctions and to immediately deliver humanitarian support to the displaced and to many needy Iraqi citizens.
7. to secure Iraq's oil fields and resources, which belong to the Iraqi people.
8. to help the Iraqi people create conditions for a transition to a representative self-government.

I'm guessing since they haven't achieved some of them, their permanence in Iraq seems justified.

 

[Solid Fro]

What's the problem? If this "militia" has ties to Iran and is killing innocent people just because of their political affiliation, why doesn't the British take them out?

Catastrophic eruption? Whatever.

It sounds like appeasement, submission.


1. to end the regime of Saddam Hussein. Completed
2. to identify, isolate and eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. Completed
3. to search for, to capture and to drive out terrorists from that country. in process
4. to collect such intelligence as we can related to terrorist networks. in process
5. to collect such intelligence as we can related to the global network of illicit weapons of mass destruction Completed
6. to end sanctions and to immediately deliver humanitarian support to the displaced and to many needy Iraqi citizens. Completed
7. to secure Iraq's oil fields and resources, which belong to the Iraqi people. Completed
8. to help the Iraqi people create conditions for a transition to a representative self-government. Completed

 

[Zardoz]

What's the problem? If this "militia" has ties to Iran and is killing innocent people just because of their political affiliation, why doesn't the British take them out?

Catastrophic eruption? Whatever.

It sounds like appeasement, submission.

So easy for you to say, huh, tough guy? Basra is five times bigger than Falluja. Now add maniacal Shiite religious ultra-zealotry. Then add a pipeline of support funneled in from Iran.

"Catastrophic eruption" would be putting it very mildly.

1. to end the regime of Saddam Hussein. Completed
2. to identify, isolate and eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. Completed
3. to search for, to capture and to drive out terrorists from that country. in process
4. to collect such intelligence as we can related to terrorist networks. in process
5. to collect such intelligence as we can related to the global network of illicit weapons of mass destruction Completed
6. to end sanctions and to immediately deliver humanitarian support to the displaced and to many needy Iraqi citizens. Completed
7. to secure Iraq's oil fields and resources, which belong to the Iraqi people. Completed
8. to help the Iraqi people create conditions for a transition to a representative self-government. Completed

Right. According to Rumsfeld's list, its all good, and we're almost outa there, aren't we? What a crock.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Just a little side not that has much to do with the topic...

Operation Iraqi Freedom (aka Operation Iraqi Liberation ) had the following military objectives, according to U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld:

"Operation Iraqi Liberation " << I said that!

1. to end the regime of Saddam Hussein.

Pointless... plenty of other "friendly" regimes around the world (past & present).

2. to identify, isolate and eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

That we supplied.

3. to search for, to capture and to drive out terrorists from that country.

Are none. If we leave them alone, they'll leave us alone.

4. to collect such intelligence as we can related to terrorist networks.

Go to Saudi Arabia for intelligence as related to terrorist networks.

5. to collect such intelligence as we can related to the global network of illicit weapons of mass destruction

Could've been done undercover -- no need for a full scale invasion.

6. to end sanctions and to immediately deliver humanitarian support to the displaced and to many needy Iraqi citizens.

That's fine. 👍

7. to secure Iraq's oil fields and resources, which belong to the Iraqi people.

8. to help the Iraqi people create conditions for a transition to a representative self-government.

Only because the threat of Communism is over. We couldn't care less whether or not the Iraqi people were free back in the late 70s and throughout the 80s. As long as the "regime" was committed to containing Communism, Saddam was free to do whatever it was he wanted.

 

[Danoff]

Pointless... plenty of other "friendly" regimes around the world (past & present).

Not pointless given 9/11.

That we supplied.

We know he built more.

Are none. If we leave them alone, they'll leave us alone.

That's the kind of thinking that screwed us on 9/11.

Go to Saudi Arabia for intelligence as related to terrorist networks.

Just one of many places...

Could've been done undercover -- no need for a full scale invasion.

Not as useful.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Not pointless given 9/11.

What did Iraq have to do with 9/11?

We know he built more.

At our encouragement. We gave him the technology and the funds with which to build more. All because he was "anti-communist"...

That's the kind of thinking that screwed us on 9/11.

No...

There is a hard core of people in the United States who will not be moved, whatever facts you present, from their conviction that this nation means only to do good, and almost always does good, in the world, that it is the beacon of liberty and freedom

The United States is a society in which people not only can get by without knowing much about the wider world but are systematically encouraged not to think independently or critically and instead to accept the mythology of the United States as a benevolent, misunderstood giant as it lumbers around the world trying to do good

That is the kind of thinking that scewed us on 9/11... we must accept responsibility for our actions.

Just one of many places...

...but we won't because of their assets...

Not as useful.

Won't know until you try.

 

[Danoff]

What did Iraq have to do with 9/11?

I've already explained it.

At our encouragement. We gave him the technology and the funds with which to build more. All because he was "anti-communist"...

... what's your point?

That is the kind of thinking that scewed us on 9/11... we must accept responsibility for our actions.

Do you think that accepting responsibility for our actions means allowing terrorists to kill thousands of people and destroy our trade center - stricking a major blow to our economy? Is that taking responsibility?

Won't know until you try.

That's always the lamest possible reasoning.

 

[FoolKiller]

That is the kind of thinking that scewed us on 9/11... we must accept responsibility for our actions.

Maybe I am thick headed, but can someone please explain to me what the US did that justified 9/11 or the other previous terror attacks against us?

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I've already explained it.

Point me in the right direction, then.

... what's your point?

One minute he's our ally... then the next, he's a regime that harbors terrorists and hides WMDs. Any involvement we have in that region is for our benefit only.

Do you think that accepting responsibility for our actions means allowing terrorists to kill thousands of people and destroy our trade center - stricking a major blow to our economy? Is that taking responsibility?

No taking responsbility means answering two simple questions:

1. Have we in any way contributed to the problem?
2. How or what can we do to fix the situation?

Then, have Bush say something like: "We know that some of the things America has done in the past may have contributed to the current problems in the Middle East. We are here to ask the international community to help us in solving the political and economic problems in the Middle East."

Don't you think that would have garnered more support for us even if we went to war in Iraq anyway?

We were attacked, yes. I was probably closer to the towers when it happened than anyone else on the board! But if we as a nation have nothing to hide, then we must accept responsibility for our actions.

I'm not saying that retaliation for the terrorist attacks is wrong. Quite the opposite; Someone has to pay for what happened.

We are targeting the wrong people.

Maybe I am thick headed, but can someone please explain to me what the US did that justified 9/11 or the other previous terror attacks against us?

Well, that entirely depends on who you ask. In my opinion, NOTHING can justify acts of terrorism... but that doesn't mean that we didn't have a hand in "stoking the flames".

 

[Diego440]

I was probably closer to the towers when it happened than anyone else on the board!

I was at 65th and 1st...